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Poly 800 data knob schematics

Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-13 by neosay@...

Sorry for opening a conversation for a simple question...

Does anybody know who is the author of the schematics for the Poly 800 data knob?

I have a question regarding the wiring - the schematics for the FlipFlops highlighted the PIN 4, 14, 6, 7 and 8. Where 14 and 7 seems to be connected to the switches this it is not clear to me how to connect the other PINs.

Does the encoder pot needs to have any special specs or can I take a generic one?

Thanks and Regards,
Neosay


Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-13 by bperkins211@...

I authored that and probably should delete it. I abandoned the project when I couldn't get a good response from the P800. I believe the problem is that the MPU is not scanning fast enough, coupled with the problem of a wide enough pulsed signal from the encoder to keep the 4066 switch closed long enough. That's my best guess. And is probably why we have not seen a successful mod like this work. It's a mod that seems to require modification to the firmware to actually support a encoder for value changes to parameters to work decently. ~Blaine

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-14 by Sami Jumppanen

What is the scan frequency?

Anyway, what if the quick pulses were merged, so that it corresponds to steady button press? I took a look at the data entry schematics, and without detailed examination I assume things like this have already been considered.

I guess it requires pulse modifier to keep the pulses at constant length. And when pulsing fast enough, it never gets low. It's been a long time since I saw such, haven't been active on electronics lately.

Sami


On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 3:45 PM, bperkins211@... [korgpolyex] <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I authored that and probably should delete it. I abandoned the project when I couldn't get a good response from the P800. I believe the problem is that the MPU is not scanning fast enough, coupled with the problem of a wide enough pulsed signal from the encoder to keep the 4066 switch closed long enough. That's my best guess. And is probably why we have not seen a successful mod like this work. It's a mod that seems to require modification to the firmware to actually support a encoder for value changes to parameters to work decently. ~Blaine




--
Sami Jumppanen
http://netti.nic.fi/some-e

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-14 by Michael Hawkins

Can someone provide a link to the encoder datasheet? We should put that into the folder where the schematic is. Hopefully, someone can pick up on it from there.

I have suddenly begun to really like the idea of a knob for data entry. I might even try and add a board into the HAWK kit bundle offering.

Mike

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 5:01 AM, "Sami Jumppanen sami.jumppanen@... [korgpolyex]" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
What is the scan frequency?

Anyway, what if the quick pulses were merged, so that it corresponds to steady button press? I took a look at the data entry schematics, and without detailed examination I assume things like this have already been considered.

I guess it requires pulse modifier to keep the pulses at constant length. And when pulsing fast enough, it never gets low. It's been a long time since I saw such, haven't been active on electronics lately.

Sami


On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 3:45 PM, bperkins211@... [korgpolyex] <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
I authored that and probably should delete it. I abandoned the project when I couldn't get a good response from the P800. I believe the problem is that the MPU is not scanning fast enough, coupled with the problem of a wide enough pulsed signal from the encoder to keep the 4066 switch closed long enough. That's my best guess. And is probably why we have not seen a successful mod like this work. It's a mod that seems to require modification to the firmware to actually support a encoder for value changes to parameters to work decently. ~Blaine



--
Sami Jumppanen
http://netti.nic.fi/some-e


Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-14 by neosay@...

I found a kit for a data knob here - but the kit itself is unavailable and the guys form circumbenders don't what to share the instructions... but obviously there is a technical solution...


Korg Poly800 mkII data entry knob

 

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-14 by Eanna Butler

Just to be clear, that's "circuitbenders"...

They appear to have had the same issue with the rate of rotation...

"
This mod adds an endless rotary encoder that does the same job as the UP/DOWN data entry buttons on the front panel. Pressing the knob takes the synth into parameter edit mode, and then turning it changes the parameter value. The knob has 20 clicks per 360 degree rotation, so it takes 5 full rotations to take the value of a parameter from 0 to 99. 
The only minor issue is that unlike with the Poly800 mkII version of this mod, if you turn the knob too quickly on the mkI, it does sometimes stop changing the value until to slow down the rotation a little. This is because the pulses sent to the buttons on each click start getting too short for the synth to read at very high rotation speeds. As you can see from the video below it is still perfectly usable once you have the hang of how fast to turn the thing
We have not yet tried this mod with an EX800, but we can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work fine.
"



On 14 May 2014 14:15, neosay@... [korgpolyex] <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I found a kit for a data knob here - but the kit itself is unavailable and the guys form circumbenders don't what to share the instructions... but obviously there is a technical solution...


Korg Poly800 mkII data entry knob

Korg Poly800 mkII data entry knob
Data entry knob to replace the up/down keys on a Korg Poly800 mkII Pressing the knob takes the synth in and out of edit mode. There are 20 clicks per 360 deg...
Preview by Yahoo

 




--
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-14 by bperkins211@...

You can use a variety of encoders and that's what I did with my experiments.

That schematic I did is incorrect in the cap/resistors for the debounce circuit.  I think the HIGH signal is debounced, but the LOW signal isnt.   I must have changed values several times while jacking with it for best results.  It really needs to be abandoned or perhaps a note of warning.. I dunno.


I tried 30ppr and 20ppr encoders.  They are standard for the most part.  30ppr is too many short pulses in one revolution, that's why Circuitbenders used a 20ppr encoder.  It's slower with a longer pulse.
You cant even click the buttons faster than a certain speed.



To put in a encoder with only hardware would be very frustrating and if I had paid for a kit(which I basically did when I bought the parts I used), I'd be very disappointed.
It's those larger values like 0-99 for filter and other high value parameters that you'd really want to tweak quickly that really need firmware based decoding of the encoder.
I built one, spent DAYS on it and I was so disappointed that I finally gave up on it and deemed it unworthy to pursue any further due to the pulse/scan issue that I came to realize was the problem.




Mike, I believe doing a bit of code magic to the firmware would allow a much more useable knob.
The Kawai K3 keyboard used a very simple encoder circuit that the uC decodes.
Take a look at the schematic sometime..

http://www.soundprogramming.net/manuals/Kawai_K3_ServiceManual.pdf

page 9, upper left corner is the encoder and debounce schematic w/DDFF.
Looks like one signal is untreated by the FF and the other line is processed by the FF.

I think it's a ~25ppr encoder.  Works nice, but takes a few full turns to do 0-99.  They provide a very nice knob with a "finger dimple" in it to help spin it evenly/without stops.
there are very nice HAM radio knobs out there with spinner knobs to grab a tiny handle to keep it spinning w/out stops.  This is the best method, but are expensive.. $12+ for one.
I bought a nice 1 1/4"d  x 1"h knob with a small finger dimple in it for $4 instead



Mike, I liked your idea of sampling the rate of change to perhaps cause the change to be more logarithmic vs. linear, depending on how fast you turned the knob.
And I think maybe there's a way to load data to a algor. to process the rate according to the size of values to change.  Like each time you select a parameter, it loads that param's value range into the Wheel's algor.  Or is that too much to process on each update?

I'd love to help create a great Data Wheel for the HAWK..
Anything I can do to help?  I have plenty of parts/veroboard etc. to build prototypes.

-Blaine

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-14 by Martin Ator

Circumbenders? That sounds painful. I'll stick with my ant-eater thank you very much.
On Wednesday, 14 May 2014, 16:54, "bperkins211@... [korgpolyex]" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
You can use a variety of encoders and that's what I did with my experiments.

That schematic I did is incorrect in the cap/resistors for the debounce circuit.  I think the HIGH signal is debounced, but the LOW signal isnt.   I must have changed values several times while jacking with it for best results.  It really needs to be abandoned or perhaps a note of warning.. I dunno.


I tried 30ppr and 20ppr encoders.  They are standard for the most part.  30ppr is too many short pulses in one revolution, that's why Circuitbenders used a 20ppr encoder.  It's slower with a longer pulse.
You cant even click the buttons faster than a certain speed.



To put in a encoder with only hardware would be very frustrating and if I had paid for a kit(which I basically did when I bought the parts I used), I'd be very disappointed.
It's those larger values like 0-99 for filter and other high value parameters that you'd really want to tweak quickly that really need firmware based decoding of the encoder.
I built one, spent DAYS on it and I was so disappointed that I finally gave up on it and deemed it unworthy to pursue any further due to the pulse/scan issue that I came to realize was the problem.




Mike, I believe doing a bit of code magic to the firmware would allow a much more useable knob.
The Kawai K3 keyboard used a very simple encoder circuit that the uC decodes.
Take a look at the schematic sometime..

http://www.soundprogramming.net/manuals/Kawai_K3_ServiceManual.pdf

page 9, upper left corner is the encoder and debounce schematic w/DDFF.
Looks like one signal is untreated by the FF and the other line is processed by the FF.

I think it's a ~25ppr encoder.  Works nice, but takes a few full turns to do 0-99.  They provide a very nice knob with a "finger dimple" in it to help spin it evenly/without stops.
there are very nice HAM radio knobs out there with spinner knobs to grab a tiny handle to keep it spinning w/out stops.  This is the best method, but are expensive.. $12+ for one.
I bought a nice 1 1/4"d  x 1"h knob with a small finger dimple in it for $4 instead



Mike, I liked your idea of sampling the rate of change to perhaps cause the change to be more logarithmic vs. linear, depending on how fast you turned the knob.
And I think maybe there's a way to load data to a algor. to process the rate according to the size of values to change.  Like each time you select a parameter, it loads that param's value range into the Wheel's algor.  Or is that too much to process on each update?

I'd love to help create a great Data Wheel for the HAWK..
Anything I can do to help?  I have plenty of parts/veroboard etc. to build prototypes.

-Blaine


Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-19 by neosay@...

Sorry for bending the name circuitbenders...



@Blaine: I understand that you are not convinced about the solutions you worked on for the data knob. But do you think you could correct the schematics in principal that I can start to prototype something? My understanding for electronics not good enough to do it based on your comments in your recent message ; - ) A handwriting would be also absolutely sufficient…

Thanks!

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-19 by bperkins211@...

I will try to update the schematic in the next few days and up it in the Files section here..  I still have the Express Schematic file I rendered it in too and will post it up as well.

Mike, I assume you don't mind me upping it to the Groups Files page?

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-05-19 by Michael Hawkins

Absolutely no problem. Of course.

Mike
On Monday, May 19, 2014 11:49 AM, "bperkins211@... [korgpolyex]" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
I will try to update the schematic in the next few days and up it in the Files section here..  I still have the Express Schematic file I rendered it in too and will post it up as well.

Mike, I assume you don't mind me upping it to the Groups Files page?


Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-06-10 by neosay@...

@bimmerfan222

Hi!

It's me again - did you had the chance to do the update for the data knob schematics.

I have checked the the files section serveral time... perphas I'm looking in the wrong folderß

Cheers,
Neosay

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Poly 800 data knob schematics

2014-06-10 by bperkins211@...

Sorry, I have not gotten around to it.


Really all I needed to do was change the "debounce" circuit.

It needs to look like this (Figure 2) on each side of the encoder

Debouncing Contacts Part 2

 



Then you just need to adjust the resistor/capacitor combination to vary the length of bounce suppression.

The CMOS Cookbook has a table of combo's as a guide to the length of Charge/Discharge.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PhW9eMDmFGYC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=rc+circuit+resistor+capacitor+value+cmos+cookbook&source=bl&ots=5BPFait6G2&sig=9CK-5h-7skYQyS0b_g8ZCl9RaEM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fBuXU8aMCNHQsQSrooEo&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=rc%20circuit%20resistor%20capacitor%20value%20cmos%20cookbook&f=false


Hope that helps until I can sit down with the editor and redo the schematic.

~Blaine