Korg Poly800/EX800 Users

 From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:36 PM
Subject: [korgpolyex] Project Polygon (breakout control panel)
 

  
Hey Mike and all,

Well I'm back again to mull over more ideas on doing a breakout of controls buried inside the Hawk 800.  I managed to sit down and go over the manual of all the features for the synth I dont even have put together yet.. (I'm waiting on a new roll of Kester #44 solder to arrive..).

What I came up with is a rough sketch of the controls I think would benefit the most if it could be extracted out of the synth and placed on a panel so you can tweak sounds on the fly.. like the old school analog synths and the newer retro synths.
This is also similar to the older Roland breakout modules like a PG-300 and other's like it.. you have your synth, then you have this module that plugs into the synth so you can get those buried controls out of there to tweak.

For now, I'll call this thing The Polygon. 
The reason to build it instead of using a generic Midi Controller like a Behringer BCR2000 is because the Korg will get glitched and overloaded with midi data.. from what I've understood in Mike's disclaimer/warnings about overuse of Midi data.
So a direct input would probably be better... using the logic and raw programming wizardry that is native to the MPU inside the Korg.

Now I could be all wrong going at it all in this direction.. but I dont hear much about people using generic MIDI controllers on their H800.  And using them extensively, like changing three values at one time while getting note and velocity MIDI data crammed thru the MIDI port too.
I just foresee a major traffic jam happening inside. 

Below is a link I believe you can open up to see the sketch of controls:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Y7E1BM7Gn7E/T_9J2dkFULI/AAAAAAAAACY/iU0I2QwS-Gs/s1253/PolygonV2.jpg

Hopefully that will load right up in your browser.. it's hosted on google picsaweb.

What I did was try to pack as many controls possible in as much limited space and minimal controls/lights possible.

The first bank of controls, "Modulation", is actually four scenes in one.  It's for the two LFO's, Resonance and DCO modulation.  The black smudges are suppose to be switches...  So where it say's "Mod Select", you press the button and it will scroll thru the four selections, then start over again at the first after the last select.
Same goes for any part that has multiple choices, such as the Mod Source, Waveform.
Now for the Waveform, I was thinking it might be possible to cause the light next to the selected waveform to blink steadily when an inverted waveform is selected... so lets say you press once when a steady triangle WF is on.. it will begin to blink.. meaning it's an inverted triangle.. press again and it goes to the sawtooth WF.. press again and the sawtooth LED will blink, again indicating it is an inverted sawtooth.
If blinking is too complicated a feature to do, then perhaps one extra LED on the side to indicate inverted WF's.
The five encoders are used where needed/applicable for the scene you are currently in... so if PWM isnt being used, that encoder wont have any effect until you change scenes to a Modulation that will actually use it.
The "Delay/EG3 Invert" control is dual purpose, depending on what scene you are in.

The "SLFO  FM"  bank is to control the two SLFO's..  you can switch between the two and edit on the fly.  Waveform selection will work the same way as it does in the "Modulation" scenes.

"VCF-Resonance-Noise" is of course the rest of the controls often tweaked on the fly and pretty much self explanitory.  If you see a switch with a LED next to it, like "EG3 Multi Trigger", the control is OFF if the LED is off, and of course ON if it is lit.

The sketch is what I've come up with so far, I know I've left out a lot of features, and I may have gotten some of the features wrong, but I think I've got it pretty darn close to the way the manual explains them.

I think I've counted out:

28 LEDs
12 Momentary Switches
13 Encoders (26 switches for Up/Down param. editing)

So how can I get that much scanning and displaying going on from the Poly 800?  Is it possible to do LED matrix using a 2-4 Decoder for Columns and a 3-8 Decoder for the Rows??  And selecting them by using inputs from extra select lines on the Hawk 800 board?  This should give me control of 32 LED's.

Then to get all those switches and encoders, I'm afraid I may have to get those from keyboard switches.. but I'd like to be able to make it so I can use the lowest octave of keys still.. while in the Polygon Edit Mode. (and that brings up the idea of a octave "transpose" feature)
Using 5 switch groups of 8 from the keyboard scanning system might do the trick.. that would give me around 40 switches total.. and the sketch shown would require at least 38 of them.

I'm still learing how the decoders work and am still clueless on how to program the 80C85 right now, but I think this project is possible.. if I could workaround not using the keyboard switches, that would be better of course.
But if I did have to use the KB switches, again I'd like to be able to switch from a full useable keyboard to an EDIT mode that would allow use of the breakout control box (The Polygon).  Trick is not to hit the keys that are now edit switches when in edit mode.. I have not thought of a way to isolate the KB keys from the Polygon programmer's switches/encoders yet.
While it might be cool for most the edit parameters

I was also thinking all this could be worked so a DB 25 connector/cable could be used to interface the Polygon with the Hawk800 and some of the original Poly800 hardware.. specifically that switch group octal buffer.
The Polygon would need input for the LED's.. probably just 5 select lines from the Hawk 800 and perhaps a 6th or 7th line to Enable a reset on the decoders???  Hopefully the Korg is fast enough to multiplex the LED's and flash thru them fast enough so persistance of vision would make them appear to be steady, unless of course you want one to blink (and I dont know how you'd do that with the described matrix..

Here's a rough sketch on what I'd see needed for the Polygon to get inputs for (minus the 5V/Gnd).  I made an error on using 6 switch group lines for the Polygon's switches.. it should be just 5 lines.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fDvRIcrQVLo/T_9LMOSNoNI/AAAAAAAAACs/DL09jW-LPLI/s1108/Custom%2520MatrixV1.jpg

Mike, if you could look that over and let me know what you think.. I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on it or ideas on how to get there.  The features you put in our beloved Korgs are just dying to get out in the real world of independent switches and knobs to be tweaked, twisted and contorted to the ends of the earth.
I am problaby missing some logic in the decoders.. like the Enable connections (I assume they need the outputs reset to "0" again by the MPU so it can go read other data on the bus elsewhere?)
I realize this isnt going to be something that can be whipped out tomorrow, next month.. or less than a year.. it's going to take a lot of spare time over a long time.

When I get my H800 installed.  I'll be doing the first encoder trial with the regular UP/Down switches on the Korg.  When I get that fine tuned using a Dual Flip Flop and Quad Bilateral Switch setup for decoding the encoder and mimicking a switch.. then I'll be able to have something I know can work on the rest of the system's switch scanning.

Whew.. I've been meaning to find time to post this.. but it takes up much time to sit down with pen/paper.. sketch out the controls while reading the manual.. then cludgingly use MS Paint and a cheapo Photo Edit app to get the rough sketch down digitally to share on here (trust me, you dont want photos of my drawings on paper, lol!)
And it's difficult to explain what you're trying to do without drawing a damn picture first..

-Blaine

 From: ackolonges blanges <ackolonges@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:39 PM
Subject: RE: [korgpolyex] Re: Project Polygon (breakout control panel)
 

  
Hi Guys,  

I thought I'd just pipe up because of the repeated mention of surprise at the HAWK only selling 100 boards in 4 years (though of course I think the project is an amazing achievement regardless). I'm someone who would really love to have one, but didn't buy one because of the $100 pricetag.  I got the synth for $50 at a second-hand shop (they also thought it was broken), and I just can't legitimize spending double what the synth cost on adding a bunch of features. I acknowledge that it's most likely not feasible for you to sell it for any less. 

That's why my attention came back when you said you were going to open source the project.  I'd love to try sourcing the parts myself if possible and make it on veroboard.  I'd also love to be able to edit the software's behaviour myself (my last project was building a hardware digital synth using dsPICs - mostly in assm).  Do you see that being possible at all?

Thanks for your attention.

Jason 



________________________________
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
From: bperkins211@...
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:31:49 +0000
Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: Project Polygon (breakout control panel)

  


Thanks for all the input Mike.  My apologies for posting misinformation about the bottle-necking of MIDI data.  When I wrote that, I had reservations of stating it like I did.. thinking "He's gonna come back and correct me.. I just KNOW IT!" 
But I figured I'd just post it and get the current/correct information that way.

"try to send controllers after note on/off events, not before."

Most of the tweaking I'd want to play with would happen while a note or chord is held.. 

"the question is whether any one wants what you're suggesting *that* much. In the case of the HAWK itself, I've sold a little of one hundred kits over four years. The HAWK does improve the Poly so much that it is well sort after. But think about it, only 100 kits sold over four years. You need to get plenty of supporters before you take on what you propose."

Guess I might be the only one who does want it so badly that I'd spend countless evenings with my nose in a 8085 Assy. programming book (which arrived yesterday, BTW) just to get to a level where I can have coherent dialogue over the inner workings of the HAWK's code, plus read up on Lancaster's TTL/CMOS Cookbooks and stumble over my Elenco digital trainer lab to get a grip on the use of all the different logic IC's and their applications.
Yup, it's a crash course in digital electronics and assy. language.. but I feel it's something well worth doing for myself to expand my self knowledge...  it's not as important for me to create a programmer box for the Korg as to what I LEARN along the way.
If nobody else is interested in it, nothing wrong with that..  I didnt really expect any support in doing it except maybe a bit of advice from you here and there..  I never expected anyone to do all or most the work for me.. what's there to learn from it all that way?

Yea, I'm a little surprised there's only been 100 units sold in four years too.  But doing what you have done and to promote it all by yourself, plus be a one man manufacturer of the units... that takes alot of dedication and work.   If you had a ton more of biz, it'd become overwhelming.. then you'd be in a position where you'd have to risk investing in hiring other people to keep up with all the production.  I was in that position back in 2001 when I had a biz that grew faster than one man could handle on his own.. I couldnt be a field tech and office manager at the same time.  It was unnerving to be working on a customers unit and then of course the phone rings.. it would never fail.. I'd begin to do actual work that made money and that phone would ring.. it would almost NEVER ring when I was sitting on my butt with my hands free and in a quiet place to have a conversation.  I realized I wasnt going to continue to proliferate my biz if I answered the
 phone while working.. I was overwhelmed, frustrated and short with people.. I needed someone who could take time with the customers on the phone and leave me to doing the actual work that brought home the $$$$.
Chances are you'd probably sell alot more kits if they were advertised more across the internet, got an ebay presence(to promote awareness) and basically move from the open source/hobby sector to a full fledged manufacturing biz.  But that's a huge risk in today's economy.
I do know for a fact that the Poly/EX 800's sell on ebay like crazy daily.  They typically sell for $200-300..  even the damaged/not fully functional units sell for around $120.  I got lucky with mine for $65 on ebay because the pawn shop didnt realize they tested/powered it on with the TAPE switch on the back ON and were unfamiliar with the Poly's workings.. I guess other bidders didnt look close enough at the pics (it was all quite clear in the pics they posted)  to figure out why they couldnt get it to make sounds.  So when it arrived, I just switched the TAPE switch off and everything worked fine (except an occasional joystick issue, which I think is the pot slipping inside the joysticks plastic).
I bet if you purchased Poly/EX's, refurb them as needed to full working condition, install your HAWK in it and posted it for sale on ebay or some synth sites.. you'd get a nice price for them.. most likely in the $500-600 range.  It'd get the awareness out there for them and you'd probably sell more kits as well for those feeling up to the task of a DIY project.
If it had a programmer panel to go with it... I bet it'd sell for alot more...  People LOVE old synths with tons of knobs/controls.
I know from personal experience in the past that one man simply cannot do all this by himself.. there simply isnt enough time in the day/week/month/year to do that, plus have a "real" job and juggle personal/family time in the mix.

Your HAWK is very unique.  Just reading all the features you've crammed into it tells me there isnt any other synths like it out there you can just go and buy under a grand or without going old school modular, which can go for several thousand.  And VST/ Virtual synths dont count.  Seems everytime I play around with one of those, they glitch up eventually when you try to tweak it too much while playing a note... and I mean they will flat out fall on their face, hang/freeze.

"I will hand sketch a diagram of the HAWK schematic (believe it or not, I don't have a schematic of it as I designed it in my head and went straight to the PCB design - lol). "

If this were an engineering class, you would have been given a "C"  on this project by the instructor for not showing your work.. ;-P 

"Maybe someone else (YOU?) would convert into a schematic? And I will offer tips and hints on assembly and how the HAWK code works and the utilities needed to create binary from the assembly   ........    you will need to get a lot of help from elsewhere or otherwise scavenge it from other dedicated Poly fans. Note how quiet this list is?"

The schematic doesn't look like it would be too complicated to do.. just takes a bit of time.  Most of it could be figured out by simply looking at the PC board.  I wouldnt mind taking on the task...
I've always wondered if ANYONE on here knows just how the HAWK hardware/code works... basically know it inside and out just as much as you do.
Yea, the list is VERY quiet, short of some impatient boob lashing out with juvenile remarks.  I imagine this is due to most people buy their hawk, build it and once it all works never really come on here anymore.
And I fully understand you simply dont have the time to hold someone by the hand and lead them thru the entire process of understanding all the inner workings of digital logic/circuits and assy. language...  I'm shocked you even found time to singlehandedly create the Hawk in the first place.

"I don't like to knock other peoples ideas but in this particular case, I think you ought to give a controller a chance with the HAWK."

I'll most likely play around with a MIDI controller in the near future.. perhaps try out that custom MIDI CPU board I showed you awhile back.
My hopes of doing the programmer was simply to attempt to make a controller that is HAWK specific..  so it would be easy to change the parameters that have controls laid out in a coherent pattern vs. a generic controller with all the knobs/sliders crammed together and tiny bits of Post-It notes above the knob to keep track of what controls which parameter... and a custom programmer panel with LED indicators that immediately show what waveform is selected, or what feature is on/off would be tremendously helpful.   It's hard to do that with a generic controller.

The programmer is the harder project I had in mind.. the other project I have in mind is to use a Flight/Thrust gaming controller to replace the Poly's joystick and combine it with a Flight foot controller that gives three axis's.. left/right pedal plus a RUDDER control where the two pedals push forward/backward alternately (make a nice foot control pitch bend).
Both would be fairly easy to hardwire in.. just need to make voltage followers to make the 100K pots inside the controllers to mimic 10K pots...  but those projects are fairly straight forward or would use that MIDI CPU to also use the rest of the pots/switches crammed onto the Thrust controller.

Anyway, my Kester solder arrived yesterday, along with the 8085 assy. book.  So hopefully I'll have my Hawk up and running within the next week or so.. just need the right window of time and place to do it without any interruptions or sense of being rushed.
If I were single, I'd have had it done last night.. lol.

-Blaine

 From: ackolonges blanges <ackolonges@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:39 PM
Subject: RE: [korgpolyex] Re: Project Polygon (breakout control panel)
 

  
Hi Guys,  

I thought I'd just pipe up because of the repeated mention of surprise at the HAWK only selling 100 boards in 4 years (though of course I think the project is an amazing achievement regardless). I'm someone who would really love to have one, but didn't buy one because of the $100 pricetag.  I got the synth for $50 at a second-hand shop (they also thought it was broken), and I just can't legitimize spending double what the synth cost on adding a bunch of features. I acknowledge that it's most likely not feasible for you to sell it for any less. 

That's why my attention came back when you said you were going to open source the project.  I'd love to try sourcing the parts myself if possible and make it on veroboard.  I'd also love to be able to edit the software's behaviour myself (my last project was building a hardware digital synth using dsPICs - mostly in assm).  Do you see that being possible at all?

Thanks for your attention.

Jason 



________________________________
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
From: bperkins211@...
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:31:49 +0000
Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: Project Polygon (breakout control panel)

  


Thanks for all the input Mike.  My apologies for posting misinformation about the bottle-necking of MIDI data.  When I wrote that, I had reservations of stating it like I did.. thinking "He's gonna come back and correct me.. I just KNOW IT!" 
But I figured I'd just post it and get the current/correct information that way.

"try to send controllers after note on/off events, not before."

Most of the tweaking I'd want to play with would happen while a note or chord is held.. 

"the question is whether any one wants what you're suggesting *that* much. In the case of the HAWK itself, I've sold a little of one hundred kits over four years. The HAWK does improve the Poly so much that it is well sort after. But think about it, only 100 kits sold over four years. You need to get plenty of supporters before you take on what you propose."

Guess I might be the only one who does want it so badly that I'd spend countless evenings with my nose in a 8085 Assy. programming book (which arrived yesterday, BTW) just to get to a level where I can have coherent dialogue over the inner workings of the HAWK's code, plus read up on Lancaster's TTL/CMOS Cookbooks and stumble over my Elenco digital trainer lab to get a grip on the use of all the different logic IC's and their applications.
Yup, it's a crash course in digital electronics and assy. language.. but I feel it's something well worth doing for myself to expand my self knowledge...  it's not as important for me to create a programmer box for the Korg as to what I LEARN along the way.
If nobody else is interested in it, nothing wrong with that..  I didnt really expect any support in doing it except maybe a bit of advice from you here and there..  I never expected anyone to do all or most the work for me.. what's there to learn from it all that way?

Yea, I'm a little surprised there's only been 100 units sold in four years too.  But doing what you have done and to promote it all by yourself, plus be a one man manufacturer of the units... that takes alot of dedication and work.   If you had a ton more of biz, it'd become overwhelming.. then you'd be in a position where you'd have to risk investing in hiring other people to keep up with all the production.  I was in that position back in 2001 when I had a biz that grew faster than one man could handle on his own.. I couldnt be a field tech and office manager at the same time.  It was unnerving to be working on a customers unit and then of course the phone rings.. it would never fail.. I'd begin to do actual work that made money and that phone would ring.. it would almost NEVER ring when I was sitting on my butt with my hands free and in a quiet place to have a conversation.  I realized I wasnt going to continue to proliferate my biz if I answered the
 phone while working.. I was overwhelmed, frustrated and short with people.. I needed someone who could take time with the customers on the phone and leave me to doing the actual work that brought home the $$$$.
Chances are you'd probably sell alot more kits if they were advertised more across the internet, got an ebay presence(to promote awareness) and basically move from the open source/hobby sector to a full fledged manufacturing biz.  But that's a huge risk in today's economy.
I do know for a fact that the Poly/EX 800's sell on ebay like crazy daily.  They typically sell for $200-300..  even the damaged/not fully functional units sell for around $120.  I got lucky with mine for $65 on ebay because the pawn shop didnt realize they tested/powered it on with the TAPE switch on the back ON and were unfamiliar with the Poly's workings.. I guess other bidders didnt look close enough at the pics (it was all quite clear in the pics they posted)  to figure out why they couldnt get it to make sounds.  So when it arrived, I just switched the TAPE switch off and everything worked fine (except an occasional joystick issue, which I think is the pot slipping inside the joysticks plastic).
I bet if you purchased Poly/EX's, refurb them as needed to full working condition, install your HAWK in it and posted it for sale on ebay or some synth sites.. you'd get a nice price for them.. most likely in the $500-600 range.  It'd get the awareness out there for them and you'd probably sell more kits as well for those feeling up to the task of a DIY project.
If it had a programmer panel to go with it... I bet it'd sell for alot more...  People LOVE old synths with tons of knobs/controls.
I know from personal experience in the past that one man simply cannot do all this by himself.. there simply isnt enough time in the day/week/month/year to do that, plus have a "real" job and juggle personal/family time in the mix.

Your HAWK is very unique.  Just reading all the features you've crammed into it tells me there isnt any other synths like it out there you can just go and buy under a grand or without going old school modular, which can go for several thousand.  And VST/ Virtual synths dont count.  Seems everytime I play around with one of those, they glitch up eventually when you try to tweak it too much while playing a note... and I mean they will flat out fall on their face, hang/freeze.

"I will hand sketch a diagram of the HAWK schematic (believe it or not, I don't have a schematic of it as I designed it in my head and went straight to the PCB design - lol). "

If this were an engineering class, you would have been given a "C"  on this project by the instructor for not showing your work.. ;-P 

"Maybe someone else (YOU?) would convert into a schematic? And I will offer tips and hints on assembly and how the HAWK code works and the utilities needed to create binary from the assembly   ........    you will need to get a lot of help from elsewhere or otherwise scavenge it from other dedicated Poly fans. Note how quiet this list is?"

The schematic doesn't look like it would be too complicated to do.. just takes a bit of time.  Most of it could be figured out by simply looking at the PC board.  I wouldnt mind taking on the task...
I've always wondered if ANYONE on here knows just how the HAWK hardware/code works... basically know it inside and out just as much as you do.
Yea, the list is VERY quiet, short of some impatient boob lashing out with juvenile remarks.  I imagine this is due to most people buy their hawk, build it and once it all works never really come on here anymore.
And I fully understand you simply dont have the time to hold someone by the hand and lead them thru the entire process of understanding all the inner workings of digital logic/circuits and assy. language...  I'm shocked you even found time to singlehandedly create the Hawk in the first place.

"I don't like to knock other peoples ideas but in this particular case, I think you ought to give a controller a chance with the HAWK."

I'll most likely play around with a MIDI controller in the near future.. perhaps try out that custom MIDI CPU board I showed you awhile back.
My hopes of doing the programmer was simply to attempt to make a controller that is HAWK specific..  so it would be easy to change the parameters that have controls laid out in a coherent pattern vs. a generic controller with all the knobs/sliders crammed together and tiny bits of Post-It notes above the knob to keep track of what controls which parameter... and a custom programmer panel with LED indicators that immediately show what waveform is selected, or what feature is on/off would be tremendously helpful.   It's hard to do that with a generic controller.

The programmer is the harder project I had in mind.. the other project I have in mind is to use a Flight/Thrust gaming controller to replace the Poly's joystick and combine it with a Flight foot controller that gives three axis's.. left/right pedal plus a RUDDER control where the two pedals push forward/backward alternately (make a nice foot control pitch bend).
Both would be fairly easy to hardwire in.. just need to make voltage followers to make the 100K pots inside the controllers to mimic 10K pots...  but those projects are fairly straight forward or would use that MIDI CPU to also use the rest of the pots/switches crammed onto the Thrust controller.

Anyway, my Kester solder arrived yesterday, along with the 8085 assy. book.  So hopefully I'll have my Hawk up and running within the next week or so.. just need the right window of time and place to do it without any interruptions or sense of being rushed.
If I were single, I'd have had it done last night.. lol.

-Blaine

>
> On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 08:34:28AM -0000, zoinky420 wrote:
> > 
> > You know if you become a good 8085 assembly programmer you could write killer apps for the Tandy Model 100/102!  There are a lot more than 100 people using them on a daily basis, and we sure could use some software to take advantage of the simple MIDI port hack!
> 
> I've got a Tandy 200 here.  MIDI hack, y'say?
> 
> I'll get on that once I get a bit further with my Ensoniq Mirage hacking (I can boot a Forth environment, and format and copy disks from the resulting command line - I'll call it done when I have a decent disk formatter/copier and hardware test utility).
> 
> I wonder how hard it is to make wholly custom ROMs for the Tandy 200?  I wonder how hard it would be to make a "Poly-800 on a board" to cram inside... 
> -- 
> Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
>