Korg Poly800/EX800 Users

mike: you've been looking for inspiration for implementing an arpeggiator, 
and previously i recommended the oberheim cyclone (which i've never seen, 
but i have the drummer and it's both amazing and flaky) and the kawai 
k5000 (which i have, but never played with the arpeggiator).

i've been playing with my XL-7 lately, and that arpeggiator seems to be 
the one that's most likely to actually get any use from me.

check out the user manuals for the command stations (XL-7, MP-7, PX-7) or 
the proteus 2500 for details about what those arpeggiators can do. i think 
some of e-mu's other modules (later proteus series; carnival, audity-2000, 
orbit, etc) may have had the same arpeggiators, but i'm not sure. part of 
what makes those arpeggiators super-awesome is what can be done with them 
in real-time.

that said... and given the hardware limitations even in the expanded 
HAWK-800, i'm wondering if it might be best to do a *simple* arpeggiator, 
or none at all.

just for the record, an arpeggiator is not on my wish list of proposed 
features. partly because i already have a k5000 and an XL-7, but also 
because the UI of the poly-800 just doesn't seem to lend itself to 
programming a powerful arpeggiator. also, part of what makes the XL-7 
arpeggiator infinitely more useful to me than the one on the k5000 (even 
if, let's say, they're both amazing) is that the k5000 arpeggiator is 
built into the k5000 so using it with anything else is a PITA... the 
arpeggiator on the XL-7 (which is my current sequencer) is upstream from 
anything i'd want to arpeggiate. so even if the HAWK-800 had an 
arpeggiator and display comparable to the k5000, i don't think i'd get 
much use out of the arpeggiator, for the same reasons i don't bother using 
the k5000's arpeggiator.

so, my vote is to focus on simplicity... up, down, up-down, random, 
octave... maybe something to adjust speed and range. but even that isn't 
something that i would personally get much use out of.

i think if you want to do an uber-arpeggiator it should be a separate 
project. among other things you can then give it the UI that it would 
deserve, build in all of the best features from the best arpeggiators ever 
made, make it flash-able so new features can be added, but also it 
shouldn't have to compete for clock cycles with (what i think are) more 
important things that the HAWK-800 ~really~ needs.


-- 
         ...atom

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 		-- Napoleon Bonaparte

I'm with atom on this, I have to say. While arpeggiators are fun to  
mess around with, I've never used one on a finished track. Having  
said that, I know lots of people love them, so there's no reason why  
one shouldn't be added to the Hawk-800. I agree though, that the  
Poly-800 interface isn't conducive to programming a complex arp. -  
there just aren't enough controls, and you can't see what you're  
doing. If it's going to be there, I'd say atom is right; it should  
probably just have up, down, up-down and random modes, and a rate  
control, and leave it at that. On the other hand, if you could  
somehow add a decent LCD display to the unit (you could probably get  
a nice big 40x2 in the space currently taken up by the 4-character  
LED display), then you could make a much more flexible one. That's  
another project entirely though.

As I mentioned before, I'd be much more interested in seeing an  
enhanced sequencer that allowed recording of parameter tweaks as well  
as notes, something like what can be done on the MS-2000. For me,  
that would be the 'killer app' of Poly/EX-800 mods.

Incidentally, and totally OT, but my MIDIBox SID is coming along  
nicely. I've nearly finished the mainboard now
http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,12508.30.html
Just have to solder-up the LCD connector, and I can install the chip  
and see if it works...


a|x

On 9 Jan 2009, at 04:50, Atom Smasher wrote:

> mike: you've been looking for inspiration for implementing an  
> arpeggiator,
> and previously i recommended the oberheim cyclone (which i've never  
> seen,
> but i have the drummer and it's both amazing and flaky) and the kawai
> k5000 (which i have, but never played with the arpeggiator).
>
> i've been playing with my XL-7 lately, and that arpeggiator seems  
> to be
> the one that's most likely to actually get any use from me.
>
> check out the user manuals for the command stations (XL-7, MP-7,  
> PX-7) or
> the proteus 2500 for details about what those arpeggiators can do.  
> i think
> some of e-mu's other modules (later proteus series; carnival,  
> audity-2000,
> orbit, etc) may have had the same arpeggiators, but i'm not sure.  
> part of
> what makes those arpeggiators super-awesome is what can be done  
> with them
> in real-time.
>
> that said... and given the hardware limitations even in the expanded
> HAWK-800, i'm wondering if it might be best to do a *simple*  
> arpeggiator,
> or none at all.
>
> just for the record, an arpeggiator is not on my wish list of proposed
> features. partly because i already have a k5000 and an XL-7, but also
> because the UI of the poly-800 just doesn't seem to lend itself to
> programming a powerful arpeggiator. also, part of what makes the XL-7
> arpeggiator infinitely more useful to me than the one on the k5000  
> (even
> if, let's say, they're both amazing) is that the k5000 arpeggiator is
> built into the k5000 so using it with anything else is a PITA... the
> arpeggiator on the XL-7 (which is my current sequencer) is upstream  
> from
> anything i'd want to arpeggiate. so even if the HAWK-800 had an
> arpeggiator and display comparable to the k5000, i don't think i'd get
> much use out of the arpeggiator, for the same reasons i don't  
> bother using
> the k5000's arpeggiator.
>
> so, my vote is to focus on simplicity... up, down, up-down, random,
> octave... maybe something to adjust speed and range. but even that  
> isn't
> something that i would personally get much use out of.
>
> i think if you want to do an uber-arpeggiator it should be a separate
> project. among other things you can then give it the UI that it would
> deserve, build in all of the best features from the best  
> arpeggiators ever
> made, make it flash-able so new features can be added, but also it
> shouldn't have to compete for clock cycles with (what i think are)  
> more
> important things that the HAWK-800 ~really~ needs.
>
>
> -- 
>          ...atom
>
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
>
>  	"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
>  		-- Napoleon Bonaparte
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> I'm with atom on this, I have to say. While arpeggiators are fun to mess 
> around with,
===============

alright, at least one person agrees with me. and without further ado, i'll 
disagree with him...


> As I mentioned before, I'd be much more interested in seeing an enhanced 
> sequencer that allowed recording of parameter tweaks as well as notes, 
> something like what can be done on the MS-2000. For me, that would be 
> the 'killer app' of Poly/EX-800 mods.
=================

IMHO, that would be cool *if* it can be done without further modifying the 
modification and without occupying memory that could be used for other 
features (velocity, EG4, etc), but really a sequencer, like an 
arpeggiator, also seems like it can be done better, overall, using 
external hardware/software. when the poly-800 came out it was a noteworthy 
that it had a crude (by current standards) sequencer, but now you can get 
an MMT-8, MC-50, QY-20, (not to mention an atari or eee) etc for cheap 
enough, and then you'd have an interface that you'd *want* to use as a 
sequencer.

also, storing parameter tweaks in a sequencer eats HUGE amounts of memory. 
IMO that type of thing should be handled either with LFOs and EGs, or with 
external kit.

i'd say the HAWK-800 is well on the way to "killer" without a sequencer or 
arpeggiator. somewhat disregarding my own personal wish-list (LCD & sysex 
for panel events), i think velocity sensitivity is the *only* thing the 
kit is "missing".


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

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 	 a chocolate cake without mustard."
 		-- Elfer

OK, this is great feedback.

I've been making good progress going back over my code and collapsing certain parts of it into reusable functions so that the memory use is actually dropping right now.

I also have been thinking about the ARP too. It is not on the top of my list that is for sure. I think a simple ARP is a good idea for those of us who don't use computers or a hardware sequencer. But how many of us are in that position?

Since I was able to get the sustain pedal working and actually change the EG1/2 sustain in real time according to the pedal, it is now quite possible to change any part of the EG parameters according to velocity.

I believe I can do the same for EG3.

So I can see that altering attack on EG1/2 or EG3 might be things we'd like to change according to velocity.

What other parameters might we want changed according to velocity?

Mike





________________________________

From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 9:09:53 AM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] best hardware arpeggiator


i'd say the HAWK-800 is well on the way to "killer" without a sequencer or 
arpeggiator. somewhat disregarding my own personal wish-list (LCD & 
sysex 
for panel events), i think velocity sensitivity is the *only* thing 
the 
kit is "missing".

-- 
...atom

 
100% agree.
 
Dave

----- Original Message -----

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Michael Hawkins wrote:

> I've been making good progress going back over my code and collapsing 
> certain parts of it into reusable functions so that the memory use is 
> actually dropping right now.
==================

great news!


> So I can see that altering attack on EG1/2 or EG3 might be things we'd 
> like to change according to velocity.
>
> What other parameters might we want changed according to velocity?
===================

definitely: volume, filter cutoff

nice to have: filter res, EG1/2/x decay, LFO1/2/x speed, DCO1/2 level 
level

if the UI allows (and ultimately, as mike keeps tweaking the code i think 
the UI will prove to be the limiting factor in how many features can be 
included), i'd like to see velocity assignable to anything that can 
conceivably be controlled by it, with an option to invert the direction of 
control.

mike, have you though about doing a synth kit from scratch? like a fatman 
or AVR? i really don't need another synth, but with your attention to 
detail and "customer focus", not to mention the technically superior job 
your doing, i'd have to consider buying one. i've already got my eyes out 
for another 800... i just passed on one that was as-is, broken, 
pick-up-only (auckland) and sold for >150NZ$.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
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 	"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior
 	 to all other countries because you were born in it."
 		-- George Bernard Shaw

> your doing, i'd have to consider buying one. i've already got my eyes out
> for another 800... i just passed on one that was as-is, broken,
> pick-up-only (auckland) and sold for >150NZ$.

    Now I don't need another board :) But if someone finds a broken poly and 
wants to be free of that...how much would it be to shipping to Brazil? :oD

    Alexandre

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Michael Hawkins wrote:

> You're right about the UI.I am confronting the difficult truth that we 
> have almost run out of extended parameters to use for new features.
==============

or admit that further addition of features needs an LCD, and soon after 
that a new CPU ;)


> Yes, I am thinking about designing a brand new synth module. There's 
> really only one thing stopping me. <Drum Roll>
>
> The filter! I am not a VCF designer. I actually love the design of the 
> NJM2069. And it is a damn shame it is no longer available in quantities 
> otherwise i would use it in a heartbeat.
>
> So if there is anyone out there that can point me at a good audio VCF 
> chip that is available on the market today. Please point me toward it.
===============

didn't DSI run some curtis chips for their new stuff? maybe you can buy in 
bulk from them?

or you can use discrete elements and just copy the old moog & arp 
filters... those patents are expired now, but several factors would 
probably force you to use those designs only as starting points.

and there's maxim - http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/filters/
  i'm not sure if any of those are suitable for synthesizers, but last i 
looked (a few years ago) some of them seemed, on paper, like they would 
work well.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
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On Fri, 2009-01-09 at 13:58 -0800, Michael Hawkins wrote:

> So if there is anyone out there that can point me at a good audio VCF
> chip that is available on the market today. Please point me toward it.

There is a guy who produces replacement Juno VCF/VCA modules, and
they're not even expensive.

If enough people crossed my palm with crisp brown foldy ones then I'd
quite happily develop a VCF module, probably on a board about 2" by 1"
with a row of pins along one edge.  Now, would you like Moog topology (I
wouldn't, they have patent lawyers), SVF (tricky getting LM13700s in
SMT), Korg MS20 or Steiner Synthacon style filters?

Gordon

On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:

> Now, would you like Moog topology (I wouldn't, they have patent lawyers)
====================

the classic moog filter patents have long expired.

i don't want to seem to hard on bob, but bear in mind that there was a 
long period of time that his lawyers couldn't even secure his right to use 
his own last name!


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God
 	 who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect
 	 has intended us to forgo their use."
 		-- Galileo Galilei

On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 14:05 +1300, Atom Smasher wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:
> 
> > Now, would you like Moog topology (I wouldn't, they have patent lawyers)
> ====================
> 
> the classic moog filter patents have long expired.
> 
> i don't want to seem to hard on bob, but bear in mind that there was a 
> long period of time that his lawyers couldn't even secure his right to use 
> his own last name!

Sssh.  Don't tell anyone, lest I lose my synthgeek-cred, but I never
thought the Moog filters were that great anyway.  I much preferred Tim
Orr's designs...

Gordon

--- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, "David Mochen" <davidmochen@...> 
wrote:
>
> i'd say the HAWK-800 is well on the way to "killer" without a 
sequencer or 
> arpeggiator. somewhat disregarding my own personal wish-list (LCD & 
sysex 
> for panel events), i think velocity sensitivity is the *only* thing 
the 
> kit is "missing".
> 

Obviously we all have different wants.  I couldn't care less about LCD 
readout, but an arpeggiator that syncs to clock would be huge for me.  
And I don't understand the comment that it could 'steal clock cycles'?  
I don't understand what that means.  Surely the arpeggiator and 
sequencer would not be running at the same time.

> or admit that further addition of features needs an LCD, and soon after
> that a new CPU ;)

    A LCD would be great. If there is something I DO HATE in the poly is the 
(insert expletive here) 7-seg display.

>> Yes, I am thinking about designing a brand new synth module. There's
>> really only one thing stopping me. <Drum Roll>
>> The filter! I am not a VCF designer. I actually love the design of the
>> NJM2069. And it is a damn shame it is no longer available in quantities
>> otherwise i would use it in a heartbeat.
>> So if there is anyone out there that can point me at a good audio VCF
>> chip that is available on the market today. Please point me toward it.

    This is a problem for each synth developer. Curtis chips comes to mind, 
but maybe you can find a good solution reading the schematics of a minimoog? 
:o)