Korg Poly800/EX800 Users

Hi guys,

since this is my first post to the group, maybe I should introduce
myself.
My name is Alex, and I'm from London, in the UK. The Kork Poly-800
was my first 'proper' synthesizer, bought 2nd-hand in 1993. Although
I was initially disappointed it didn't have lots of knobs and sliders
on it (I stupidly bought it 'blind' without even seeing any pictures
of it), I've grown to love it's sound and little idiosyncrasies over
the years. I picked up an EX-800 a few years ago, but it had been
languishing unused in my rack until I installed Mike's excellent
Hawk-800 mod a couple of weeks ago. Now I can see it's going to get a
lot of use!

a|x

Of course, my previous email was the preamble to something else,
which I forget actually to include. I have a notoriously poor memory,
so this doesn't surprise me...

Sequencer Enhancement Idea:
Two ideas, really. Don't know how practical either is, but one, or
both, would be very cool.

1. A dedicated '303-style' bassline sequencer mode.
Switching to this mode would automatically drop the current sound
into Portamento Mono mode, and set the filter envelope to a simple
Attack Decay mode (which could be done by overiding the patch's
existing Breakpoint, Slope and Sustain settings). In addition, this
new mode would allow slide notes to be added to the current sequencer
step with a special keypress. This would slide from the previous note
to the current one. Also, you'd be able to add accents to the current
note by pressing another keypad key. Accented notes wouldn't
necessarily have to be louder, but I'd envisage them (as in the
tb-303), having a tighter filter envelope decay, increased filter
env.mod, and maybe slightly higher resonance and cutoff values.
It might also be cool to add the accent function outlined above to an
additional Bassline key mode, so that note velocities above a
settable threshold would trigger the accent effect.
In either case, you'd be able to set the accent amount.

2. A more generalised ability to record arbitrary parameter settings
per-sequencer-step. In this mode, any edits made to parameter
settings while in sequencer write mode would be recorded with the
current step, and would be played-back at the same time as any notes
recorded. This would allow all kinds of cool sequenced timbral
effects, especially is the ability to record just parameter-changes
(and no note data) was added. That way, you could play any notes you
wanted, and have the synth parameters automated by the sequencer.


I realise both these options (but particularly the 2nd one) would
greatly increase the memory demands of the sequencer, so I'd be
perfectly willing to accept a cut in the number of available
sequencer steps from the current 256 to, say, 32, or even 16, if this
helps at all.


Anyone any thoughts on whether the above would be desirable? I'm
aware that the Poly/EX-800 is never going to make a particularly
convincing tb-303 emulator, but the Slide and Accent features of the
original bassline box still sound amazing, even when applied to a
different basic sound. Option 2 is admittedly a little more
ambitious, but if it's possible, would open up all kinds of cool
possibilities.

Cheers guys,

a|x

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> 1. A dedicated '303-style' bassline sequencer mode.

==============

using an MC-202 to sequence external gear via CV/gate has always been a
cool trick...

doing that doesn't require mods to a half-baked sequencer, though. a good
303 emulation can be done simply with a key-on legato (not sure if that's
the proper term) and proper routing of velocity to "accent" (with whatever
you want to assign to accent, and just use two velocity values to control
accent off and accent on).

so if the hawk-800 has a key-on legato feature (should be easy if it
doesn't already have it?) then you can get a 303 behavior out it... but
don't count on 303 sounds. it would probably sound more like using an
MC-202 to control CV/gate gear... but with the addition of an accent
feature.

the same trick works on plenty of other synths, ranging from the casio
CZ-101 (but only the CZ-1 deals with velocity/accent) to some of the
better hardware 303 emulators.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"This is a bit more than a vote."
-- Oilman Roger Tamraz, explaining why he never
bothered to vote, but did give $300,000 to the
Democratic Party. For his contribution, Tamraz
got a personal meeting with President Clinton,
at which he promoted his Caspian Sea pipeline
scheme.
(Testimony to Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, 9/18/1997)

Hiya!

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 7:59 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
> > 1. A dedicated '303-style' bassline sequencer
> mode.
> ==============
>
> using an MC-202 to sequence external gear via CV/gate has
> always been a
> cool trick...
>
> doing that doesn't require mods to a half-baked
> sequencer, though. a good
> 303 emulation can be done simply with a key-on legato (not
> sure if that's
> the proper term) and proper routing of velocity to
> "accent" (with whatever
> you want to assign to accent, and just use two velocity
> values to control
> accent off and accent on).
>
> so if the hawk-800 has a key-on legato feature (should be
> easy if it
> doesn't already have it?) then you can get a 303
> behavior out it... but
> don't count on 303 sounds. it would probably sound more
> like using an
> MC-202 to control CV/gate gear... but with the addition of
> an accent
> feature.
>
> the same trick works on plenty of other synths, ranging
> from the casio
> CZ-101 (but only the CZ-1 deals with velocity/accent) to
> some of the
> better hardware 303 emulators.

All true. The Hawk mod does have a 'Portamento Mono' mode, which is essentially a legato effect, as you describe, with automatic portamento between overlapping notes. It's very cool. There's no equivalent to the 'accent' effect though, but I can't imagine it being massively difficult to add. Mike would know more about that though..

The only problem with Portamanento Mono mode is that you can't really use it with the builtin sequencer, as (as far as I know), you can't record overlapping notes. You CAN make a note longer than one step, but you can't make notes actually everlap (ie force a note not to retrigger while another note is added at the next step), so there's no way to actually get that slide effect with the sequencer.

Incidentally, as I said, I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, it's just I think the 303 has a couple of nice features that would also be cool to add to the Poly/EX-800.

a|x

PS
I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono mode in use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.

>
>
> --
> ...atom
>
> ________________________
> http://atom.smasher.org/
> 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> "This is a bit more than a vote."
> -- Oilman Roger Tamraz, explaining why he never
> bothered to vote, but did give $300,000 to the
> Democratic Party. For his contribution, Tamraz
> got a personal meeting with President Clinton,
> at which he promoted his Caspian Sea pipeline
> scheme.
> (Testimony to Senate Governmental Affairs Committee,
> 9/18/1997)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> All true. The Hawk mod does have a 'Portamento Mono' mode, which is
> essentially a legato effect, as you describe, with automatic portamento
> between overlapping notes. It's very cool. There's no equivalent to the
> 'accent' effect though, but I can't imagine it being massively difficult
> to add. Mike would know more about that though..

============

if you can route velocity to DCA/DCF/etc then you can have your accent.

just program a sequence that only uses velocity "1" for no accent and
velocity "127" for accent.

> The only problem with Portamanento Mono mode is that you can't really
> use it with the builtin sequencer,

==================

i wouldn't consider that a lack of feature... maybe more a lack of
external sequencer?

> I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono mode in
> use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime
> control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.

======================

if you're running it from abelton, forget that the poly even has a built
in sequencer. really.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"We really haven't done everything we could to protect our
customers... Our products just aren't engineered for security"
-- Brian Valentine,
Senior Vice President of Microsoft, Windows Division

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono mode in
> use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime
> control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.

========================

damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a poly-800!!!!

just add some velocity "accent" and you can not just emulate a 303, but go
beyond a basic 303 sound.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people
tolerate the growth of private power to a point
where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
government by an individual, by a group or any
controlling private power."
-- Franklin Roosevelt

Atom Smasher wrote:

> just add some velocity "accent" and you can not just emulate a 303, but go
> beyond a basic 303 sound.

Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack portion of the
filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the resonance.

That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one half provides
feedback around the filter, the other varies the time constant of an RC
circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is increased, the
attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303 "weoow". It's damn
near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-) In fact, only 303 clones
and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...

Gordon

On 11 Nov 2008, at 21:07, Atom Smasher wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
>> All true. The Hawk mod does have a 'Portamento Mono' mode, which is
>> essentially a legato effect, as you describe, with automatic
>> portamento
>> between overlapping notes. It's very cool. There's no equivalent to
>> the
>> 'accent' effect though, but I can't imagine it being massively
>> difficult
>> to add. Mike would know more about that though..
> ============
>
> if you can route velocity to DCA/DCF/etc then you can have your
> accent.
>
> just program a sequence that only uses velocity "1" for no accent and
> velocity "127" for accent.

My thoughts exactly. Currently, you can't, however.

>> The only problem with Portamanento Mono mode is that you can't really
>> use it with the builtin sequencer,
> ==================
>
> i wouldn't consider that a lack of feature... maybe more a lack of
> external sequencer?

I just like the idea of being able to sequence basslines on the EX-800
itself. Like the original 303, it forces you to think in a different
way, and gets you away from the screen for a while.
And, since the Hawk mod is all about extending the synth in different
ways, I still think it would make a worthwhile addition.

Also, the more complex idea of making the sequencer capable of
recording arbitrary parameter-changes would be even cooler, in my
opinion.

a|x

>
>> I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono
>> mode in
>> use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime
>> control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> ======================
>
> if you're running it from abelton, forget that the poly even has a
> built
> in sequencer. really.
>
>
> --
> ...atom
>
> ________________________
> http://atom.smasher.org/
> 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> "We really haven't done everything we could to protect our
> customers... Our products just aren't engineered for security"
> -- Brian Valentine,
> Senior Vice President of Microsoft, Windows Division
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
> > I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod
> Portamento Mono mode in
> > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> with realtime
> > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> ========================
>
> damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
> poly-800!!!!
>
> just add some velocity "accent" and you can not
> just emulate a 303, but go
> beyond a basic 303 sound.

Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the icing on the cake for me :D

Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example was an EX-800).

I'll upload another example file :D

a|x

>
>
> --
> ...atom
>
> ________________________
> http://atom.smasher.org/
> 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> people
> tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
> itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
> government by an individual, by a group or any
> controlling private power."
> -- Franklin Roosevelt
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:

> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack portion of the
> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the resonance.
>
> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one half provides
> feedback around the filter, the other varies the time constant of an RC
> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is increased, the
> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303 "weoow". It's damn
> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-) In fact, only 303 clones
> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...

=================

which is why i'd say, don't try to emulate a 303, as such, with any other
synth. but... if you can get everything else in place, it does open up
some possibilities where the real 303 leaves off.

http://www.synthmania.com/Famous%20Sounds.htm

srcoll down to "Smack My Bitch Up" and check out a nice emulation that
isn't *really* an emulation, but has a similar feel as the real thing.
i've done similar with a CZ-1, and heard similar on an FS1r and k5000.
being able to do similar on a poly-800... with filter mods... wow! just
run it through an AM8000r and you should be able to sound like liam's
prophecy ;)


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it."
-- Abbie Hoffman

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

>> if you can route velocity to DCA/DCF/etc then you can have your accent.
>>
>> just program a sequence that only uses velocity "1" for no accent and
>> velocity "127" for accent.
>
> My thoughts exactly. Currently, you can't, however.

===============

why not??


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"Not one weapon in our vast arsenal can shield us from
a nuclear weapon delivered in a sailboat or a Piper
Cub or a suitcase or a Ryder rental truck. Not a
penny of the 273 billion dollars a year we spend on
so-called defense can actually defend us against a
terrorist bomb. Nothing in our enormous military
establishment can actually give us one whit of
security. That is a military fact... In country
after country, our government has thwarted
democracy, stifled freedom, and trampled human
rights. That's why we are hated around the world...
We are not hated because we practice democracy,
freedom, and human rights. We are hated because our
government denies these things to people in third
world countries whose resources are coveted by our
multinational corporations... We must change our
government's ways... Only one thing has ever ended a
terrorist campaign - denying the terrorist
organization the support of the larger community it
represents... Remove the desperation, give them some
hope, and support for terrorism will evaporate. At
that point bin Laden will be forced to abandon
terrorism or be treated like a common criminal.
Either way, he and his money cease to be a threat. We
CAN have security ... or we can have revenge. We
cannot have both."
-- Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Director of all "Star Wars"
programs under presidents Ford and Carter, combat
pilot over Vietnam (101 missions), Ph.D. in Aeronautics
and Nuclear Engineering, President of the Institute for
Space and Security Studies and Presiding Archbishop of
the United Catholic Church

Hi.

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...> wrote:

> From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:12 PM
> Atom Smasher wrote:
>
> > just add some velocity "accent" and you can
> not just emulate a 303, but go
> > beyond a basic 303 sound.
>
> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack
> portion of the
> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the
> resonance.

Ah.. I didn't know that...
I thought the decay was reduced on accented notes, but I'd never have twigged the attack was also slowed at the same time. I assume it's only the filter attack that's altered, not the volume envelope.

> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one
> half provides
> feedback around the filter,

So the resonance-boost on accented notes isn't actually from the filter circuit itself? Interesting...

> ...the other varies the time
> constant of an RC
> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is
> increased, the
> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303
> "weoow". It's damn
> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-) In fact,
> only 303 clones
> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...

Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit. And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly..
So is the filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as the resonance is increased?

a|x



>
> Gordon
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, David Mochen <davidmochen@...> wrote:

> From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 11:27 PM
> Hi!
>
> I was astonished too by your mp3.

Cheers!

> I love to disguise the
> Poly 800's often "too characteristic"
> soundmark by turning off the chorus, for example. Congrats!

I've always loved the chorus, to be honest. I've even grown to love the large amount of noise that suddenly appears when you turn it on (especially on patches with the filter cutoff turned down).

a|x

>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alex Drinkwater
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher
> <atom@...> wrote:
>
> > From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
> > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> >
> > > I'm uploading an example of the current
> Hawk mod
> > Portamento Mono mode in
> > > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton
> Live,
> > with realtime
> > > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation
> controller.
> > ========================
> >
> > damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
> > poly-800!!!!
> >
> > just add some velocity "accent" and you
> can not
> > just emulate a 303, but go
> > beyond a basic 303 sound.
>
> Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the
> icing on the cake for me :D
>
> Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this
> sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example
> was an EX-800).
>
> I'll upload another example file :D
>
> a|x
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ...atom
> >
> > ________________________
> > http://atom.smasher.org/
> > 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> > -------------------------------------------------
> >
> > "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> > people
> > tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> > where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
> > itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
> > government by an individual, by a group or any
> > controlling private power."
> > -- Franklin Roosevelt
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit.
> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the
> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as
> the resonance is increased?

===============

don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a clone
and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in places
like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if there
have been graduate theses done on it.

at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when you're trying to
recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"The proper time to influence the character of a
child is about a hundred years before he's born."
-- William R. Inge (1913-1973)

Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> Hi.
>
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...> wrote:
>
>> From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
>> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:12 PM
>> Atom Smasher wrote:
>>
>>> just add some velocity "accent" and you can
>> not just emulate a 303, but go
>>> beyond a basic 303 sound.
>> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack
>> portion of the
>> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the
>> resonance.
>
> Ah.. I didn't know that...
> I thought the decay was reduced on accented notes, but I'd never have twigged the attack was also slowed at the same time. I assume it's only the filter attack that's altered, not the volume envelope.

Yes, the decay is reduced to minimum.

>> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one
>> half provides
>> feedback around the filter,
>
> So the resonance-boost on accented notes isn't actually from the filter circuit itself? Interesting...

I'm not sure that there *is* a resonance boost on accented notes - I
don't see anything in the circuit that would do that. There might be
something I'm missing though.

>> ...the other varies the time
>> constant of an RC
>> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is
>> increased, the
>> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303
>> "weoow". It's damn
>> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-) In fact,
>> only 303 clones
>> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...
>
> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit. And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly..
> So is the filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as the resonance is increased?

No, it's only on accented notes.

If you have a look at the circuit for the 303, you'll see that the gate
pulse is differentiated by C54/R148 and buffered by Q36 etc. so it can
charge C62 via D37/R152. The decay control discharges C62 through
D26-D28 and R138, with the first having a resistor to bias it to around
0.6v, presumably to stop it doing odd things to Q39 (I don't fully
understand this bit but suspect it gives the envelope the correct
exponential curve).

Now when accent is triggered, one of IC12's analogue switches shorts out
the decay pot, leaving only R138 to set the decay time. Another of
IC12's switches sends the envelope pulse to one end of the accent pot,
with the wiper going to D24 in the filter accent circuit and also to the
VCA, where it gets added to the the "normal" VCA envelope.

Note that because of D24, the resonance control doesn't affect the VCA
envelope rise time.

Damn. I've just spotted a bug in my plugin model ;-)

Gordon

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:44 PM

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit.

> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the 
> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as 
> the resonance is increased?
===============

don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a clone 
and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in
 places 
like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if there 
have been graduate theses done on it.

at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when
you're trying to 
recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.

Very true. Plus that whole 'diminishing returns' thing sets in after a while. The closer you get, the more effort is required to get that tiny increment better still...

a|x


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"The proper time to influence the character of a
 	 child is about a hundred years before he's born."
 		-- William R. Inge (1913-1973)



------------------------------------

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--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:

From: Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...>
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:36 PM

Alex,

I wish I was less engineer and more musician!

Standby for my comments on your "feature request".

Standing (or rather sitting) by as I type.
Those speech marks look ominous, though...

a|x


Mike.

From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:27:28 PM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea



Hi!

 

I was astonished too by your mp3. I love to disguise the Poly 800's often "too characteristic" soundmark by turning off the chorus, for example. Congrats!

 

Dave

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Alex Drinkwater

To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 PM

Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org> wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
> > I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod
> Portamento Mono mode in
> > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> with realtime
> > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> ============ ========= ===
>
> damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
> poly-800!!!!
>
> just add some velocity "accent" and you can not
> just emulate a 303, but go
> beyond a basic 303 sound.

Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the icing on the cake for me :D

Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example was an EX-800).

I'll upload another example file :D

a|x

>
>
> --
> ..atom
>
> ____________ _________ ___
> http://atom. smasher.org/
> 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> people
> tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
> itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
> government by an individual, by a group or any
> controlling private power."
> -- Franklin Roosevelt
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Atom Smasher wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
>> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit.
>> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the
>> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as
>> the resonance is increased?
> ===============
>
> don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a clone
> and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in places
> like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if there
> have been graduate theses done on it.

I've thought about it *waaaay* too much. I wrote a software clone and
went crazy. There's a lesson in that for us all ;-)

> at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when you're trying to
> recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.

Yeah. Ultimately you need a not-quite-squarewave (the Poly-800's
divider-generated squarewaves are too perfect), a squeaky resonant
filter, and a fuzzbox. Maybe an echo machine, too, but definitely a
fuzzbox.

And then you need to listen to New Order - "Confusion (Pump Panel
Remix)", you know, the one from Blade with all the vampires dancing in
the club in back of a meat packing plant.

Gordon

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...> wrote:

From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:57 PM

Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
wrote:
> 
>> From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
>> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:12 PM
>> Atom Smasher wrote:
>>
>>> just add some velocity "accent" and you
 can
>> not just emulate a 303, but go 
>>> beyond a basic 303 sound.
>> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack
>> portion of the 
>> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the
>> resonance.
> 
> Ah.. I didn't know that...
> I thought the decay was reduced on accented notes, but I'd never have
twigged the attack was also slowed at the same time. I assume it's only the
filter attack that's altered, not the volume envelope.

Yes, the decay is reduced to minimum.

>> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one
>> half provides 
>> feedback around the filter,
> 
> So the resonance-boost on accented notes isn't actually from the
filter circuit itself? Interesting...

I'm not sure that there *is* a resonance boost on accented notes - I 
don't see anything in the circuit that would do
 that.  There might be 
something I'm missing though.

Don;t know why I assumed there was, really. Think I probably read it somewhere, actually.
Hmmm...

>> ...the other varies the time
>> constant of an RC 
>> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is
>> increased, the 
>> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303
>> "weoow".  It's damn 
>> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-)  In fact,
>> only 303 clones 
>> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...
> 
> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit.
And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly..
> So is the filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all
notes, as the resonance is increased?

No, it's only on accented notes.

If you have a look at the circuit for the 303, you'll see that
 the gate 
pulse is differentiated by C54/R148 and buffered by Q36 etc. so it can 
charge C62 via D37/R152.  The decay control discharges C62 through 
D26-D28 and R138, with the first having a resistor to bias it to around 
0.6v, presumably to stop it doing odd things to Q39 (I don't fully 
understand this bit but suspect it gives the envelope the correct 
exponential curve).

Now when accent is triggered, one of IC12's analogue switches shorts out 
the decay pot, leaving only R138 to set the decay time.  Another of 
IC12's switches sends the envelope pulse to one end of the accent pot, 
with the wiper going to D24 in the filter accent circuit and also to the 
VCA, where it gets added to the the "normal" VCA envelope.

Note that because of D24, the resonance control doesn't affect the VCA 
envelope rise time.

I'm afraid I'm not very well-up on microelectronics, sadly.
I probably should be, given the
 amount of time I've spent fiddling around with various kits over the years...

Damn.  I've just spotted a bug in my plugin model ;-)

Glad to be or service (if unknowingly).

a|x

Gordon

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On 11 Nov 2008, at 23:00, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:

> Atom Smasher wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>>> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must
>>> admit.
>>> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the
>>> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes,
>>> as
>>> the resonance is increased?
>> ===============
>>
>> don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a
>> clone
>> and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in
>> places
>> like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if
>> there
>> have been graduate theses done on it.
>
> I've thought about it *waaaay* too much. I wrote a software clone and
> went crazy. There's a lesson in that for us all ;-)
>
>> at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when you're
>> trying to
>> recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.
>
> Yeah. Ultimately you need a not-quite-squarewave (the Poly-800's
> divider-generated squarewaves are too perfect), a squeaky resonant
> filter, and a fuzzbox. Maybe an echo machine, too, but definitely a
> fuzzbox.
>
> And then you need to listen to New Order - "Confusion (Pump Panel
> Remix)", you know, the one from Blade with all the vampires dancing in
> the club in back of a meat packing plant.

I haven't seen the film, but I can picture the scene now.
That track is pretty-much The definitive 303 track (though there are
probably some by Hardfloor that are in the running too).
Oh, hang on, I was thinking of the Pump Panel remix of Blue Monday
(also a distorted 303 workout).

Right; time for bed. Glad I've stimulated a little debate, anyway :D


a|x

>
>
> Gordon
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



----- Original Message -----

From: Alex Drinkwater

To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 PM

Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org> wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
> > I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod
> Portamento Mono mode in
> > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> with realtime
> > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> ============ ========= ===
>
> damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
> poly-800!!!!
>
> just add some velocity "accent" and you can not
> just emulate a 303, but go
> beyond a basic 303 sound.

Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the icing on the cake for me :D

Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example was an EX-800).

I'll upload another example file :D

a|x

>
>
> --
> ..atom
>
> ____________ _________ ___
> http://atom. smasher.org/
> 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> people
> tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
> itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
> government by an individual, by a group or any
> controlling private power."
> -- Franklin Roosevelt
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:

http://xelectric.republika.pl/poly303.mp3

It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303 + small delay applied on the audio output.



----------------------------------------------------
Sylwester pod palmami!
Egipt już od 1672 zł.
Sprawdź nasze propozycje.
http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http://wycieczki.wp.pl&sid=551

That's very impressive. Much closer to 'that' 303 sound than I ever got.

a|x

--- On Wed, 12/11/08, Piotr P <xelectric123@...> wrote:

> From: Piotr P <xelectric123@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: "korgpolyex" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 8:58 AM
> In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've
> made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating
> squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:
>
> http://xelectric.republika.pl/poly303.mp3
>
> It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303 small
> delay applied on the audio output.
> ----------------------------------------------------Sylwester
> pod palmami! Egipt już od 1672 zł.Sprawdź nasze
> propozycje.http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http://wycieczki.wp.pl&sid=551
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Hawkins

To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:01 AM

Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea

Ok that is a great snippet.

I am assuming that you did this with the Moog Slayer mods in place - right?

If not, how did you control the filter? Or were you just using the keypad to change parameters the hard way?

Mike

From: Piotr P <xelectric123@ wp.pl>
To: korgpolyex <korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea

In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:

http://xelectric. republika. pl/poly303. mp3

It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303 + small delay applied on the audio output.



------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
Sylwester pod palmami!
Egipt już od 1672 zł.
Sprawdź nasze propozycje.
http://klik. wp.pl/?adr= http://wycieczki wp.pl&sid=551

IIRC it was one of the first patches I made after the cut/rez mod somewhere back in 2001. The filter resonance was set near self-oscillation, and I was twiddling with cutoff knob during the sequence.

I'll try to find a chart with that patch (I used to write down every single patch back then), and post it here. If not, I'll dust off my Poly and if there were no problems with  memory (I guess it wasn't turned on for like 2 years now), I'll write the numbers down again :-)

Cheers.

Ok that is a great snippet.

I am assuming that you did this with the Moog Slayer mods in place - right?

If not, how did you control the filter? Or were you just using the keypad to change parameters the hard way?

Mike

From: Piotr P <xelectric123@ wp.pl>
To: korgpolyex <korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea

In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:

http://xelectric. republika. pl/poly303. mp3

It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303 + small delay applied on the audio output.



------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
Sylwester pod palmami!
Egipt już od 1672 zł.
Sprawdź nasze propozycje.
http://klik. wp.pl/?adr= http://wycieczki .wp.pl&sid=551

----------------------------------------------------
Oto ostrzeżenie od Twojego Słoneczka ! - Kliknij:
http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http://corto.www.wp.pl/as/prorocznia2.html&sid=554

--- On Wed, 12/11/08, Piotr P <xelectric123@...> wrote:

> From: Piotr P <xelectric123@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: "korgpolyex" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 3:33 PM
> IIRC it was one of the first patches I made after the
> cut/rez mod somewhere back in 2001. The filter resonance was
> set near self-oscillation, and I was twiddling with cutoff
> knob during the sequence.

Ah, of course. That's why it sounds so different- hadn't realised it was a modded Poly-800..

The clip I uploaded last night was from a completely unmodified one, so I was changing the filter and envelope parameters one at a time, from the keypad. I used to do a lot of that kind of thing with the P-800, which is why it's such a revelation to now be able to tweak sounds from sliders on my master keyboard!

a|x

> I'll try to find a chart with that patch (I used to
> write down every single patch back then), and post it here.
> If not, I'll dust off my Poly and if there were no
> problems with memory (I guess it wasn't turned on for
> like 2 years now), I'll write the numbers down again
> :-)
>
> Cheers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ok that is a great snippet.
>
> I am assuming that you did this with the Moog Slayer mods
> in place - right?
>
> If not, how did you control the filter? Or were you just
> using the keypad to change parameters the hard way?
>
> Mike
>
> From: Piotr P <xelectric123@ wp.pl>
> To: korgpolyex <korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:58:18
> AM
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've
> made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating
> squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:
>
> http://xelectric. republika. pl/poly303. mp3
>
> It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303 small
> delay applied on the audio output.
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
> Sylwester pod palmami!
> Egipt już od 1672 zł.
> Sprawdź nasze propozycje.
> http://klik. wp.pl/?adr= http://wycieczki .wp.pl&sid=551
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------Oto
> ostrzeżenie od Twojego Słoneczka ! -
> Kliknij:http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http://corto.www.wp.pl/as/prorocznia2.html&sid=554
>
>
>
>