K5synth

>I just joined and wanted to say hello.  I have a k5 on the way and I
>should get it this Friday.  Anyway, I was debating about getting the
>synth - and my main gripe was that programing all that harmonic
>content is very hard.

I agree. What I've found, is that when I have a very specific and simple 
sound that I'm going for, I can create the harmonic spectrum by hand fairly 
easily, sounds like bells, marimbas, and a few others. But for anything more 
complex, I take an algorithmic approach to creating the spectrum as a 
starting point and going from there.

>What made me pull the trigger was this group
>when I read up on Leslie Sanford's "Wave Maker" and that he was able
>to resynth both the k3 and the DW.  I just can't explain how cool that
>is - thanks very much Leslie for doing this.

You're welcome!

>If Kawai shipped
>software like this when they released the K5 Yamaha would have been in
>big trouble.  I already loaded up your program (and all the other
>nasties you need to run it)  and have been experimenting with some
>wave files.  I can't wait to try loading things up when my K5 arrives.

Hey, thanks for the compliments! I really appreciate them.

>Just a bit more about me, my main axe is a K2000 and I recently got an
>Ion (which I just love).  I love to program (the Kuzweil is work, the
>Ion is a dream - I fugure without software the K5 basically can't be
>programed.) So my setup has samples and VA covered in spades, but I
>hope to get some in-your-face digital harshness out of the K5 - I just
>don't have that in my set up right now.  If anyone is interested, you
>can check out some of my stuff at:
>http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/highpantsguys.htm

Cool!! I like the portamento on Flight from Shiria. Very nice!

>Anyway, I use a PC and I am trying to get that Atari Dr. T editor up
>and running and am having problems.  The Atari emulator works, but I
>don't know how to run the Dr. T files.  That is, do I need to create a
>"disk image" or create an Atari drive that has the Dr. T files...if
>anyone is running Dr.T and can give me some tips on how to get the
>program started it would be much appreciated.

I have Steem installed, but I rarely use is as I have an original Atari. :-) 
So I think Joel can give you a better answer. From what I can recall, there 
is a folder within the Steem folder that represents the hard disk. This is 
where you can put your programs. I don't think you need a disk image, just 
download the Dr. T program and save it inside the hard disk folder. With 
Steem up and running, you click on the hard disk icon and open the program 
from there. Those with more Steem experience can give you better (and 
correct) advice.

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You wrote:
" Cool!! I like the portamento on Flight from Shiria. Very nice!"
Thank you.  That entire song (save the drums) was done with patches I
wrote on my Ion.  The main lead was my attempt at a Tony Banks lead
sound he did with an ARP Qudara.  (The Ion has an ARP filter model.) 

As for the Atari, I was able run both Leslie's Wavemaker - again very
 nice (I like the FM section, it looks very useful.  BTW, is there a
way to "slow down" (i.e. step through) the wave drawer?) - and that k5
Pro editor.  But the Dr. T files don't work.  When I try to unzip them
I get errors (CRC?).  I even went to the original site and downloaded
the files, but they have the same problems.  Anyway, now that I got
that other editor to work I don't really need Dr. T (unless it is just
a lot better.)

Also, I have some spectrum/waveforms in hard copy from the PPG
wavetables, the K1, and the Nord Lead.  It would be nice to resynth
some of these forms "by-hand".  I read here that to translate linear
spectra amplitude to the K5 you have to do a transformation.  Can
anyone (i.e. Leslie)tell me what the exact equation is to do the
transformation?   

Thanks again for all the good stuff on this board and I look forward
to posting with ya'll.  



--- In k5synth@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Sanford" <jabberdabber@h...>
wrote:
> >I just joined and wanted to say hello.  I have a k5 on the way and I
> >should get it this Friday.  Anyway, I was debating about getting the
> >synth - and my main gripe was that programing all that harmonic
> >content is very hard.
> 
> I agree. What I've found, is that when I have a very specific and
simple 
> sound that I'm going for, I can create the harmonic spectrum by hand
fairly 
> easily, sounds like bells, marimbas, and a few others. But for
anything more 
> complex, I take an algorithmic approach to creating the spectrum as a 
> starting point and going from there.
> 
> >What made me pull the trigger was this group
> >when I read up on Leslie Sanford's "Wave Maker" and that he was able
> >to resynth both the k3 and the DW.  I just can't explain how cool that
> >is - thanks very much Leslie for doing this.
> 
> You're welcome!
> 
> >If Kawai shipped
> >software like this when they released the K5 Yamaha would have been in
> >big trouble.  I already loaded up your program (and all the other
> >nasties you need to run it)  and have been experimenting with some
> >wave files.  I can't wait to try loading things up when my K5 arrives.
> 
> Hey, thanks for the compliments! I really appreciate them.
> 
> >Just a bit more about me, my main axe is a K2000 and I recently got an
> >Ion (which I just love).  I love to program (the Kuzweil is work, the
> >Ion is a dream - I fugure without software the K5 basically can't be
> >programed.) So my setup has samples and VA covered in spades, but I
> >hope to get some in-your-face digital harshness out of the K5 - I just
> >don't have that in my set up right now.  If anyone is interested, you
> >can check out some of my stuff at:
> >http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/highpantsguys.htm
> 
> Cool!! I like the portamento on Flight from Shiria. Very nice!
> 
> >Anyway, I use a PC and I am trying to get that Atari Dr. T editor up
> >and running and am having problems.  The Atari emulator works, but I
> >don't know how to run the Dr. T files.  That is, do I need to create a
> >"disk image" or create an Atari drive that has the Dr. T files...if
> >anyone is running Dr.T and can give me some tips on how to get the
> >program started it would be much appreciated.
> 
> I have Steem installed, but I rarely use is as I have an original
Atari. :-) 
> So I think Joel can give you a better answer. From what I can
recall, there 
> is a folder within the Steem folder that represents the hard disk.
This is 
> where you can put your programs. I don't think you need a disk
image, just 
> download the Dr. T program and save it inside the hard disk folder.
With 
> Steem up and running, you click on the hard disk icon and open the
program 
> from there. Those with more Steem experience can give you better (and 
> correct) advice.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on
how to 
> get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

>As for the Atari, I was able run both Leslie's Wavemaker - again very
>  nice (I like the FM section, it looks very useful.  BTW, is there a
>way to "slow down" (i.e. step through) the wave drawer?)

Um... not sure. I'm embarrassed to say that I lost the source code to the 
program years ago (I wrote the program when I was just starting out as a 
programmer and was careless), and I haven't looked at programming the Atari 
in probably 5 years.

>Also, I have some spectrum/waveforms in hard copy from the PPG
>wavetables, the K1, and the Nord Lead.

Man, I would love to see those!

>It would be nice to resynth
>some of these forms "by-hand".  I read here that to translate linear
>spectra amplitude to the K5 you have to do a transformation.  Can
>anyone (i.e. Leslie)tell me what the exact equation is to do the
>transformation?

My formula is based on several assumptions:

First, that the K5's dynamic range is around 72db. This may be way off, btw. 
Once source I found puts the partials' dynamic range at around 37.5db 
(http://home.swipnet.se/~w-90557/20_k5.html).

Second, a 10db increase in sound pressure represents a doubling of the 
perceived loudness 
(http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/dictionary.asp?dictionaryid=128).

Third, that the K5's scale is decibel based. This isn't hard to prove. Just 
program your standard sawtooth into the K5 using a linear scale, and you'll 
hear that it is way too dark.

And fourth, that a doubling in linear amplitude of a partial represents a 
doubling in its perceived loudness. In other words, using the linear scale, 
a partial with the amplitude of 10 is twice as loud as a partial with the 
amplitude of 5.

So I worked out a table (excuse the HTML tags if you are reading this in 
plain text) to illustrate the conversion:

<pre>
db         linear
0             1
10           2
20           4
30           8
40           16
50           32
60           64
70           128
72           147
</pre>

I assume that the K5 has 12 bit resolution (again, this could be off), so 
that gives me 72.24719896 decibel range. Dividing this by the number of 
steps the K5 has, 99, and I get 0.729769686db per step and a maximum linear 
amplitude of 149.5744446.

Say we have a set of partials we want to convert to the K5. To make this 
easy, we'll limit the range of the partials' amplitudes to [0, 1.0]. 
Converting this to the K5 gives us:

k5Amp = Log2(149.5744446 * partial) * 10 / step

There are a few assumptions that I've made that could be off. However, in 
practise, I've found that this formula works very well. So I'm satisfied 
that my formula is a good working approximation of what is needed to convert 
linear values to the K5, at least until someone with more knowledge can 
provide a better formula. :-)

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Leslie wrote:
"Man, I would love to see those!"

Here you go.  I just uploaded some .pdf's and .jpg's in the file
section.  My earlier e-mail was a bit off on what I actually had...

I uploaded
1) 300 waves/spectra from the Waldorf Micro Q in a .pdf.  The file is
very high res and you can zoom in and clearly identify each of the 64
harmonics.  It should be possible to manually translate these waves to
the K5 using something like graph paper and the K5 equation. 

2) A lower res .pdf of all the K1 II waves.  You can not count the
spectra like the Waldorf file, but you can get a good idea of the
harmonic distribution.  I may be able to make a better file, but for
now this is the best I have.  

3) I had the wave shapes, but not the spectra from the Virus (I think
it is the C but I am not sure).  I am not sure how useful this will be
(Wavedraw?) but I thought I would post it anyway.

4) I added a .txt file with some links to more PPG FFT stuff.

This should give people some ideas at least.  I may post one more .zip
file related to the Micro Q if it is not too big.  Have fun.


--- In k5synth@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Sanford" <jabberdabber@h...>
wrote:
> >As for the Atari, I was able run both Leslie's Wavemaker - again
very
> >  nice (I like the FM section, it looks very useful.  BTW, is
there a
> >way to "slow down" (i.e. step through) the wave drawer?)
> 
> Um... not sure. I'm embarrassed to say that I lost the source code
to the 
> program years ago (I wrote the program when I was just starting out
as a 
> programmer and was careless), and I haven't looked at programming
the Atari 
> in probably 5 years.
> 
> >Also, I have some spectrum/waveforms in hard copy from the PPG
> >wavetables, the K1, and the Nord Lead.
> 
> Man, I would love to see those!
> 
> >It would be nice to resynth
> >some of these forms "by-hand".  I read here that to translate
linear
> >spectra amplitude to the K5 you have to do a transformation.  Can
> >anyone (i.e. Leslie)tell me what the exact equation is to do the
> >transformation?
> 
> My formula is based on several assumptions:
> 
> First, that the K5's dynamic range is around 72db. This may be way
off, btw. 
> Once source I found puts the partials' dynamic range at around
37.5db 
> (http://home.swipnet.se/~w-90557/20_k5.html).
> 
> Second, a 10db increase in sound pressure represents a doubling of
the 
> perceived loudness 
>
(http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/dictionar
y.asp?dictionaryid=128).
> 
> Third, that the K5's scale is decibel based. This isn't hard to
prove. Just 
> program your standard sawtooth into the K5 using a linear scale, and
you'll 
> hear that it is way too dark.
> 
> And fourth, that a doubling in linear amplitude of a partial
represents a 
> doubling in its perceived loudness. In other words, using the linear
scale, 
> a partial with the amplitude of 10 is twice as loud as a partial
with the 
> amplitude of 5.
> 
> So I worked out a table (excuse the HTML tags if you are reading
this in 
> plain text) to illustrate the conversion:
> 
> <pre>
> db         linear
> 0             1
> 10           2
> 20           4
> 30           8
> 40           16
> 50           32
> 60           64
> 70           128
> 72           147
> </pre>
> 
> I assume that the K5 has 12 bit resolution (again, this could be
off), so 
> that gives me 72.24719896 decibel range. Dividing this by the
number of 
> steps the K5 has, 99, and I get 0.729769686db per step and a maximum
linear 
> amplitude of 149.5744446.
> 
> Say we have a set of partials we want to convert to the K5. To make
this 
> easy, we'll limit the range of the partials' amplitudes to [0,
1.0]. 
> Converting this to the K5 gives us:
> 
> k5Amp = Log2(149.5744446 * partial) * 10 / step
> 
> There are a few assumptions that I've made that could be off.
However, in 
> practise, I've found that this formula works very well. So I'm
satisfied 
> that my formula is a good working approximation of what is needed to
convert 
> linear values to the K5, at least until someone with more knowledge
can 

> provide a better formula. :-)
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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>Leslie wrote:
>"Man, I would love to see those!"
>
>Here you go.  I just uploaded some .pdf's and .jpg's in the file
>section.

Whoa! These files look really good!

I dug up my old post on using vector synthesis with the K5 and polished it 
up a bit. I uploaded it into a folder named Vector Synthesis. What I'd like 
to do is use some of the Waldorf waveforms as the basis for some Vector 
patches. Stay tuned for that one.

Thanks for sharing the files with us!

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>I had a question four you guys not related to the K5, but the music I hear 
>a lot of guys make with the K5.  Most of the stuff I am hearing sounds 
>great for synths but is lacking punch and dynamics as far as the drums are 
>concerned.  Of course the K5 does not have sampled drums but my 
>compositions use my other gear for the drums.  My question is do you think 
>being a keyboard composer that knows how to play drums help you final 
>sound?  Are you guys happy with your drums on your compositions?  I played 
>drums many years ago and find that my drums are the frist thing I lay down, 
>then layer the other stuff on top of the drums.

Knowing how a drummer thinks definitely helps create more realistic 
sequences, IMO. I've spent a fair amount of money and time on drum books 
just to get a better feel for programming my drum parts idiomatically.

It can be really subtle, too. Adding a ghosted note here, a flam there, 
varying the drum patterns so that they don't repeat the exact same way... it 
all adds up to creating more realism. I think I've gotten a pretty good grip 
on this and am happy with my drum parts.

It helps to have good drum samples. I've been using some drum sounds off of 
Joey Kramer's (Aerosmith's drummer) drum CD. He has a lot of canned drum 
patterns he plays, but I have found those too limiting. Fortunately, at the 
end of the CD, he plays each drum individually so you can recreate his drum 
kit and program your own patterns. These drums were sampled in stereo and 
have tremendous presence. Sure does make creating solid sounding drum 
patterns easier because the drum sounds are working with you, not against 
you.

So you definitely need good drum sounds that fit the style of music you are 
creating. This along with a good working knowledge of how drummers think and 
play can spice up a sequence and add realism.

I'm a guitarist, and my approach is to come up with some hopefully cool 
riffs. Then I'll lay down some drum parts that compliment what I'm playing 
on the guitar. Then comes the bass, and so on. I like to use my K5 for 
adding extra texture to a piece once I have the basic parts complete.

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