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timing

timing

2007-04-16 by Scott

I was curious if the MD MIDI machines are subject to the same timing inconsistencies, so I re-ran the test:

MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once every 4 measures)
MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)

further egged on by this discovery (that the MD MIDI machines are a bit better timing-wise than the internal MD synth/sample engine), I reran the RS7k and MC-80 triggering the Nord:

RS7k triggering the Nord pulse: 123 samples / 42 ms (once - almost twice - every 4 measures)
MC-80 triggering the Nord pulse: 13 samples / 4 ms (twice every 4 measures)

I was disappointed to see that the RS7k (originally 130 samples triggering its own internal rimshot) didn't improve, so clearly the RS7k timing slop is mostly due to its sequencer timing.  but the MC-80 (originally 62 triggering its own internal rimshot) had a DRASTIC improvement when triggering the Nord over MIDI.

Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:

33ms internal MD sound
31ms external MC-80 sound
22ms external Nord sound

It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 67% could be due to the sequencing engine.  This is by no means an exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results are a bit intriguing...

I wonder if there is any correlation between older Roland sequencers and solid sequencer timing design, since the MC4B and TR-808/909 have been mentioned in positive light so far during this discussion.  If people out there have other Roland sequencers, old or new, I'd be curious to hear from you how they measure up.  If you need some assistance in doing the measurements in Sound Forge, send me a direct email and I'd be happy to help.

Cheers.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-16 by Patrik Rydberg

Scott skrev:
> 
> 
> MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once 
> every 4 measures)
> MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
> MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
> 

Interresting...


> Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
> 
> 33ms internal MD sound
> 31ms external MC-80 sound
> 22ms external Nord sound
> 
> It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop 
> could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 
> 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an 
> exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results 
> are a bit intriguing...

Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock, 
triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has 
every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering 
external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the 
midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine, 
why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external 
midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is 
sample accurate.

/Patrik
www.cutpaste.org

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-17 by Scott

Exactly.  You would think that would be the case, but things are not what they always seem sometimes.

The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD to trigger other devices over MIDI.  This suggests, as I mentioned, that the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD.  This leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.

Here are some more interesting numbers.  Instead of looking at "maximum deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:

MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms 
MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms

Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patrik Rydberg 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing




  Scott skrev:
  > 
  > 
  > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once 
  > every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
  > 

  Interresting...

  > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
  > 
  > 33ms internal MD sound
  > 31ms external MC-80 sound
  > 22ms external Nord sound
  > 
  > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop 
  > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 
  > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an 
  > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results 
  > are a bit intriguing...

  Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock, 
  triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has 
  every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering 
  external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the 
  midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine, 
  why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external 
  midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is 
  sample accurate.

  /Patrik
  www.cutpaste.org



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-18 by Scott

Correction to my last post below: my numbers are WRONG.  I used an incorrect conversion method.

These should be the correct time data points from my MD tests:

MD triggering itself (MAXIMUM): 97 samples ~= 2.2 ms
MD triggering itself (AVERAGE): 64.428 samples ~= 1.461 ms
MD triggering MC-80 (MAXIMUM): 90 samples ~= 2.041ms 
MD triggering MC-80 (AVERAGE): 30.533 samples ~= 0.692 ms 
MD triggering Nord (MAXIMUM): 64 samples ~= 1.451 ms
MD triggering Nord (AVERAGE): 20.333 samples ~= 0.461 ms

Here is the formula I used:

T_deviation (sec) = Sample_deviation (samples) / Sampling_frequency (Hz)

So for the max deviation, for example:

T_deviation (sec) = unknown
Sample_deviation (samples) = 97 samples (as measured in Sound Forge 6)
Sampling_frequency = 44100 (file recorded at 44.1kHz)

Therefore, T_deviation = 97/44100 = 0.0022 seconds = 2.2 milliseconds

I also double-checked this conversion in Sound Forge (even though Sound Forge truncates after the thousandths decical place in the time display) and it checks out OK.

Therefore, I should change my statment of the MD triggering external MIDI devices: I think the average deviation between quarter notes is minimal if the external MIDI device has a tight internal engine, because a half-milli-second of "slop" is below the human hearing threshold.  However - the maximum deviation of 2.2 ms of the internal MD engine is definitely within the realm (although definitely at the hairy edge) of human perception limits.

However, all of this does not cover a more realistic scenario where the MD is playing multiple MIDI notes over one MIDI cable simultaneously, or playing multiple sounds internally.  Whether or not I feel like going and doing those sorts of measurements... not really.  That's not really my job.  ;-)  Though I hope someone out there is taking this as seriously as I am!

Sorry for any confusion caused by my initial message.
Scott
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing


  Exactly.  You would think that would be the case, but things are not what they always seem sometimes.

  The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD to trigger other devices over MIDI.  This suggests, as I mentioned, that the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD.  This leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.

  Here are some more interesting numbers.  Instead of looking at "maximum deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:

  MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
  MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms 
  MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms

  Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Patrik Rydberg 
    To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
    Subject: Re: [elektron] timing




    Scott skrev:
    > 
    > 
    > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once 
    > every 4 measures)
    > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
    > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
    > 

    Interresting...

    > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
    > 
    > 33ms internal MD sound
    > 31ms external MC-80 sound
    > 22ms external Nord sound
    > 
    > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop 
    > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 
    > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an 
    > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results 
    > are a bit intriguing...

    Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock, 
    triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has 
    every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering 
    external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the 
    midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine, 
    why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external 
    midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is 
    sample accurate.

    /Patrik
    www.cutpaste.org



     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-18 by Patrik Rydberg

Well, I thought the numbers sounded a BIT high, but I didn't really have 
the time to test it at the moment, so I didn't want to say anything 
about them until I had made the tests myself... =)

Anyway, the conclusion still stands. It is seriously odd that the 
internal timing is worse than the midi timing...

/Patrik

Scott skrev:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> Correction to my last post below: my numbers are WRONG. I used an 
> incorrect conversion method.
> 
> These should be the correct time data points from my MD tests:
> 
> MD triggering itself (MAXIMUM): 97 samples ~= 2.2 ms
> MD triggering itself (AVERAGE): 64.428 samples ~= 1.461 ms
> MD triggering MC-80 (MAXIMUM): 90 samples ~= 2.041ms
> MD triggering MC-80 (AVERAGE): 30.533 samples ~= 0.692 ms
> MD triggering Nord (MAXIMUM): 64 samples ~= 1.451 ms
> MD triggering Nord (AVERAGE): 20.333 samples ~= 0.461 ms
> 
> Here is the formula I used:
> 
> T_deviation (sec) = Sample_deviation (samples) / Sampling_frequency (Hz)
> 
> So for the max deviation, for example:
> 
> T_deviation (sec) = unknown
> Sample_deviation (samples) = 97 samples (as measured in Sound Forge 6)
> Sampling_frequency = 44100 (file recorded at 44.1kHz)
> 
> Therefore, T_deviation = 97/44100 = 0.0022 seconds = 2.2 milliseconds
> 
> I also double-checked this conversion in Sound Forge (even though Sound 
> Forge truncates after the thousandths decical place in the time display) 
> and it checks out OK.
> 
> Therefore, I should change my statment of the MD triggering external 
> MIDI devices: I think the average deviation between quarter notes is 
> minimal if the external MIDI device has a tight internal engine, because 
> a half-milli-second of "slop" is below the human hearing threshold. 
> However - the maximum deviation of 2.2 ms of the internal MD engine is 
> definitely within the realm (although definitely at the hairy edge) of 
> human perception limits.
> 
> However, all of this does not cover a more realistic scenario where the 
> MD is playing multiple MIDI notes over one MIDI cable simultaneously, or 
> playing multiple sounds internally. Whether or not I feel like going and 
> doing those sorts of measurements... not really. That's not really my 
> job. ;-) Though I hope someone out there is taking this as seriously as 
> I am!
> 
> Sorry for any confusion caused by my initial message.
> Scott
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott
> To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:elektron-users%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [elektron] timing
> 
> Exactly. You would think that would be the case, but things are not what 
> they always seem sometimes.
> 
> The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD 
> to trigger other devices over MIDI. This suggests, as I mentioned, that 
> the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer 
> code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD. This 
> leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve 
> to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.
> 
> Here are some more interesting numbers. Instead of looking at "maximum 
> deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:
> 
> MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
> MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms
> MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms
> 
> Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to 
> right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrik Rydberg
> To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:elektron-users%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [elektron] timing
> 
> Scott skrev:
>  >
>  >
>  > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once
>  > every 4 measures)
>  > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 
> measures)
>  > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
>  >
> 
> Interresting...
> 
>  > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
>  >
>  > 33ms internal MD sound
>  > 31ms external MC-80 sound
>  > 22ms external Nord sound
>  >
>  > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop
>  > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining
>  > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an
>  > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results
>  > are a bit intriguing...
> 
> Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock,
> triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has
> every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering
> external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the
> midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine,
> why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external
> midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is
> sample accurate.
> 
> /Patrik
> www.cutpaste.org
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-18 by John Kimble

How are you measuring the internal MD timing?  just curious...

Also maybe of interest for the issue in general:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Sep02/articles/pcmusician0902.asp

cheers
ripe
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing


  Correction to my last post below: my numbers are WRONG. I used an incorrect conversion method.

  These should be the correct time data points from my MD tests:

  MD triggering itself (MAXIMUM): 97 samples ~= 2.2 ms
  MD triggering itself (AVERAGE): 64.428 samples ~= 1.461 ms
  MD triggering MC-80 (MAXIMUM): 90 samples ~= 2.041ms 
  MD triggering MC-80 (AVERAGE): 30.533 samples ~= 0.692 ms 
  MD triggering Nord (MAXIMUM): 64 samples ~= 1.451 ms
  MD triggering Nord (AVERAGE): 20.333 samples ~= 0.461 ms

  Here is the formula I used:

  T_deviation (sec) = Sample_deviation (samples) / Sampling_frequency (Hz)

  So for the max deviation, for example:

  T_deviation (sec) = unknown
  Sample_deviation (samples) = 97 samples (as measured in Sound Forge 6)
  Sampling_frequency = 44100 (file recorded at 44.1kHz)

  Therefore, T_deviation = 97/44100 = 0.0022 seconds = 2.2 milliseconds

  I also double-checked this conversion in Sound Forge (even though Sound Forge truncates after the thousandths decical place in the time display) and it checks out OK.

  Therefore, I should change my statment of the MD triggering external MIDI devices: I think the average deviation between quarter notes is minimal if the external MIDI device has a tight internal engine, because a half-milli-second of "slop" is below the human hearing threshold. However - the maximum deviation of 2.2 ms of the internal MD engine is definitely within the realm (although definitely at the hairy edge) of human perception limits.

  However, all of this does not cover a more realistic scenario where the MD is playing multiple MIDI notes over one MIDI cable simultaneously, or playing multiple sounds internally. Whether or not I feel like going and doing those sorts of measurements... not really. That's not really my job. ;-) Though I hope someone out there is taking this as seriously as I am!

  Sorry for any confusion caused by my initial message.
  Scott

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Exactly. You would think that would be the case, but things are not what they always seem sometimes.

  The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD to trigger other devices over MIDI. This suggests, as I mentioned, that the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD. This leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.

  Here are some more interesting numbers. Instead of looking at "maximum deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:

  MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
  MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms 
  MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms

  Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patrik Rydberg 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Scott skrev:
  > 
  > 
  > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once 
  > every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
  > 

  Interresting...

  > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
  > 
  > 33ms internal MD sound
  > 31ms external MC-80 sound
  > 22ms external Nord sound
  > 
  > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop 
  > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 
  > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an 
  > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results 
  > are a bit intriguing...

  Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock, 
  triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has 
  every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering 
  external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the 
  midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine, 
  why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external 
  midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is 
  sample accurate.

  /Patrik
  www.cutpaste.org

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-18 by Jesse

Great article Ripe, thanks for posting it...

Final Thoughts

Whether you've followed all the theory here, or just cherry-picked the results that interest you, there should be plenty of food for thought. Although many musicians rely totally on the latency figures reported by software utilities, the truth can be considerably more complex, involves many more factors than the size of the soundcard buffer, is sometimes prone to being slightly misreported, and is sometimes totally at odds with reported values.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Kimble 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing


  How are you measuring the internal MD timing? just curious...

  Also maybe of interest for the issue in general:
  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Sep02/articles/pcmusician0902.asp

  cheers
  ripe

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Correction to my last post below: my numbers are WRONG. I used an incorrect conversion method.

  These should be the correct time data points from my MD tests:

  MD triggering itself (MAXIMUM): 97 samples ~= 2.2 ms
  MD triggering itself (AVERAGE): 64.428 samples ~= 1.461 ms
  MD triggering MC-80 (MAXIMUM): 90 samples ~= 2.041ms 
  MD triggering MC-80 (AVERAGE): 30.533 samples ~= 0.692 ms 
  MD triggering Nord (MAXIMUM): 64 samples ~= 1.451 ms
  MD triggering Nord (AVERAGE): 20.333 samples ~= 0.461 ms

  Here is the formula I used:

  T_deviation (sec) = Sample_deviation (samples) / Sampling_frequency (Hz)

  So for the max deviation, for example:

  T_deviation (sec) = unknown
  Sample_deviation (samples) = 97 samples (as measured in Sound Forge 6)
  Sampling_frequency = 44100 (file recorded at 44.1kHz)

  Therefore, T_deviation = 97/44100 = 0.0022 seconds = 2.2 milliseconds

  I also double-checked this conversion in Sound Forge (even though Sound Forge truncates after the thousandths decical place in the time display) and it checks out OK.

  Therefore, I should change my statment of the MD triggering external MIDI devices: I think the average deviation between quarter notes is minimal if the external MIDI device has a tight internal engine, because a half-milli-second of "slop" is below the human hearing threshold. However - the maximum deviation of 2.2 ms of the internal MD engine is definitely within the realm (although definitely at the hairy edge) of human perception limits.

  However, all of this does not cover a more realistic scenario where the MD is playing multiple MIDI notes over one MIDI cable simultaneously, or playing multiple sounds internally. Whether or not I feel like going and doing those sorts of measurements... not really. That's not really my job. ;-) Though I hope someone out there is taking this as seriously as I am!

  Sorry for any confusion caused by my initial message.
  Scott

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Exactly. You would think that would be the case, but things are not what they always seem sometimes.

  The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD to trigger other devices over MIDI. This suggests, as I mentioned, that the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD. This leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.

  Here are some more interesting numbers. Instead of looking at "maximum deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:

  MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
  MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms 
  MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms

  Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patrik Rydberg 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Scott skrev:
  > 
  > 
  > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once 
  > every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
  > 

  Interresting...

  > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
  > 
  > 33ms internal MD sound
  > 31ms external MC-80 sound
  > 22ms external Nord sound
  > 
  > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop 
  > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 
  > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an 
  > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results 
  > are a bit intriguing...

  Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock, 
  triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has 
  every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering 
  external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the 
  midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine, 
  why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external 
  midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is 
  sample accurate.

  /Patrik
  www.cutpaste.org

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-19 by Scott

That particular SOS article deals with latency.  The definition of latency is the time elapsed between user input (on a key or drum pad) and device output (either MIDI note, audible sound, or both).  Latency is an absolute measurement of time.

However, the numbers I'm reporting below are relative time measurements - slightly different.  I'm measuring how much a simple quarter note MD pattern shifts around compared to when it should precisely occur if the MD had a perfectly metronomic sequenced playback - in other words, sequence timing "deviation" or "slop".

The reason I'm showing the three different scenarios is to distinguish between two different sources of deviation:

1.) MD internal MIDI sequencing deviation
2.) MD internal synthesis engine deviation

The issue that Dave (innerclock) brought up is that although it is difficult for us to hear quarter note ticks shifting a few milliseconds back and forth in time on the MD, it is possible for him and many other people to hear the difference between the MD and other sequencers (i.e. older MPC and Roland sequencers) which had more rock-solid metronomic timing than the MD.

So in conclusion, what's being evaluated here is not the MD internal latency (how fast it generates its sound output) - it is the consistency with which it generates that sound output.  I am comparing the MD to other comparable MIDI sequencers which are more consistent in their sequenced sound output (i.e. have less deviation / slop).

As an aside to the issue of deviation is another phenomena which I'm not sure anyone else has touched on.  I hinted at this in my measurements of the EMX but wasn't quite sure what to make of it then.  I realized after playing around more and listening critically, that there is maybe something to it... the EMX has significant deviation / slop, indeed a bit more than the MD.  

But, the EMX deviation numbers show a very consistent pattern of long-short-long-short etc.  If I could put this into my own words, a drum pattern on the EMX somehow sounds "faster" to me at the same tempo than the MD when they're perfectly MIDI synced.  Again, I think there is something to that very regular repeating periodic oscillation of deviation / slop that must cause this perception, because I like the way it sounds.

I wish I had an old MPC to sample these boxes into to compare these sensations of a sampling sequencer with minimal devation / slop, one nearly perfectly periodic like the EMX, and one a bit more aperiodic like the MD, and one heavily aperiodic like the RS7k.  It would be interesting to hear the same sounds and patterns played back through all machines.

I digress... time to sleep.  ;-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jesse 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing


  Great article Ripe, thanks for posting it...

  Final Thoughts

  Whether you've followed all the theory here, or just cherry-picked the results that interest you, there should be plenty of food for thought. Although many musicians rely totally on the latency figures reported by software utilities, the truth can be considerably more complex, involves many more factors than the size of the soundcard buffer, is sometimes prone to being slightly misreported, and is sometimes totally at odds with reported values.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Kimble 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  How are you measuring the internal MD timing? just curious...

  Also maybe of interest for the issue in general:
  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Sep02/articles/pcmusician0902.asp

  cheers
  ripe

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Correction to my last post below: my numbers are WRONG. I used an incorrect conversion method.

  These should be the correct time data points from my MD tests:

  MD triggering itself (MAXIMUM): 97 samples ~= 2.2 ms
  MD triggering itself (AVERAGE): 64.428 samples ~= 1.461 ms
  MD triggering MC-80 (MAXIMUM): 90 samples ~= 2.041ms 
  MD triggering MC-80 (AVERAGE): 30.533 samples ~= 0.692 ms 
  MD triggering Nord (MAXIMUM): 64 samples ~= 1.451 ms
  MD triggering Nord (AVERAGE): 20.333 samples ~= 0.461 ms

  Here is the formula I used:

  T_deviation (sec) = Sample_deviation (samples) / Sampling_frequency (Hz)

  So for the max deviation, for example:

  T_deviation (sec) = unknown
  Sample_deviation (samples) = 97 samples (as measured in Sound Forge 6)
  Sampling_frequency = 44100 (file recorded at 44.1kHz)

  Therefore, T_deviation = 97/44100 = 0.0022 seconds = 2.2 milliseconds

  I also double-checked this conversion in Sound Forge (even though Sound Forge truncates after the thousandths decical place in the time display) and it checks out OK.

  Therefore, I should change my statment of the MD triggering external MIDI devices: I think the average deviation between quarter notes is minimal if the external MIDI device has a tight internal engine, because a half-milli-second of "slop" is below the human hearing threshold. However - the maximum deviation of 2.2 ms of the internal MD engine is definitely within the realm (although definitely at the hairy edge) of human perception limits.

  However, all of this does not cover a more realistic scenario where the MD is playing multiple MIDI notes over one MIDI cable simultaneously, or playing multiple sounds internally. Whether or not I feel like going and doing those sorts of measurements... not really. That's not really my job. ;-) Though I hope someone out there is taking this as seriously as I am!

  Sorry for any confusion caused by my initial message.
  Scott

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Exactly. You would think that would be the case, but things are not what they always seem sometimes.

  The disenchanting part is that the timing gets better when using the MD to trigger other devices over MIDI. This suggests, as I mentioned, that the slop is not only due to some random bug in Elektron's sequencer code, but it's also due to the internal synthesis engine of the MD. This leads me to speculate this could be an impossible situation to improve to a level where it would match devices like my MC-80 or Dave's MPC.

  Here are some more interesting numbers. Instead of looking at "maximum deviation" of samples between quarter notes, consider the average deviation:

  MD triggering itself: 56.375 samples ~= 19 ms
  MD triggering MC-80: 30.533 samples ~= 10.5 ms 
  MD triggering Nord: 20.333 samples ~= 7 ms

  Ironically enough, I recall setting my "MIDI offset" in Ableton Live to right around 19ms when I had Live synced to the MD.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patrik Rydberg 
  To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [elektron] timing

  Scott skrev:
  > 
  > 
  > MD original triggering its own internal rimshot: 97 samples / 33ms (once 
  > every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the MC-80 rimshot: 90 samples / 31ms (once every 4 measures)
  > MD triggering the Nord pulse: 64 samples / 22ms (once every 4 measures)
  > 

  Interresting...

  > Returning to the MD, however, reexamining the numbers:
  > 
  > 33ms internal MD sound
  > 31ms external MC-80 sound
  > 22ms external Nord sound
  > 
  > It seems there could be as much as 33% of the MD's overall timing slop 
  > could be due to the synth/sample playback engine, whereas the remaining 
  > 67% could be due to the sequencing engine. This is by no means an 
  > exhaustive scientific study, however, a preliminary one whose results 
  > are a bit intriguing...

  Well, the way I see it, if the Machinedrum is running on internal clock, 
  triggering its own sample engine from its own sequencer, the timing has 
  every possibility to be very accurate, not just as good as triggering 
  external synths via midi. Using MIDI, you have all the problems with the 
  midi protocol. Internally, between the MD sequencer and synth engine, 
  why use midi? Compare the situation to a DAW. When triggering external 
  midi stuff they are sloppy, but when triggering VSTi:s the timing is 
  sample accurate.

  /Patrik
  www.cutpaste.org

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Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-19 by Silvia Tubig

--- Scott <synthysyzor@...> schrieb:
> I wish I had an old MPC to sample these boxes into
> to compare these sensations of a sampling sequencer
> with minimal devation / slop, 


You dont need an MPC when you just want to listen to
the whole beat.. without midisyncing devices...
You can do that with any sample acurate DAW..

This is anyway still an important test... We know now
that the soundengine of the MD is wobbely.. 
question remains..is that all bad or do we like it
that way?

Within sounddesign the akademik measurement is not
allways the proove of good or bad...

In case the wobbely timing has it nice things..as it
probably does in case of the MD, otherwise we would
have had the issue earlier..
I suggest that electron creates an option for priority
tracks..or at least one switchable priority track that
just runs straight on the clock..

That would allow to have an accurate edditing point
while still having the typical MD groove..

In case a straight timing just sounds better  they
should optimize that...

But... To avoid that the MD sounds stiff we would need
than individual track offset delays...

I owned an MPC 3000 for many years..its so straight
that it hurts..you need to shift certain instruments
to make it groovy...

The wobbeling of the MD creates this automatical
..just straighten it out probably wouldnt create a
better feel in all cases and for all styles...

In ideal we would have 1 or more selectable priority
tracks in the global menu... and individual track
delays.. from -3ms to +6 ms in 0.1 ms steps...thats
the range that has prooved beeing most usefull on my
nord modulars... but can be a bigger window of
cause...

The ideal place for such track delays would be
actually within the machines itself..what is probably
not possible... Or?
Function/Bank Group together with the Editpage/LFO
button could select an extra machine related window on
each track that would give another 8 parameters...

But...beside that a global menu funktion is probably
the easiest way to implement trackdelays here... It
just needs some user diziplin than to keep the BD on
one track...




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Re: [elektron] timing

2007-04-19 by Tarekith

Indeed, these are musical instruments, not scientific instruments :)

Not to take away from the others quest to improve this though.

On 4/18/07, Silvia Tubig <rudebop@...> wrote:

> Within sounddesign the akademik measurement is not
> allways the proove of good or bad...



-- 
Tarekith
http://www.tarekith.com

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