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2014-09-01 by eviscent@...
Another question.
After recording a file, I'd like to be able to edit, to change a wrong note for example. When I tried to do this by saving the file to USB stick and then using a MIDI editor, it seemed like the file was degraded to just a MIDI file with a decreased quality of sensitivity of the original touch recorded.
Any thoughts and advice on software? I'm a Mac user.
Thanks
Bob Hall
2014-09-01 by PianoBench@...
Another question.
After recording a file, I'd like to be able to edit, to change a wrong note for example. When I tried to do this by saving the file to USB stick and then using a MIDI editor, it seemed like the file was degraded to just a MIDI file with a decreased quality of sensitivity of the original touch recorded.
Any thoughts and advice on software? I'm a Mac user.
Thanks
Bob Hall
2014-09-02 by Robert Hall
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia) In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3] The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3] I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something. Bob
2014-09-02 by PianoBench@...
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3] The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.Bob
2014-09-02 by Spencer Chase
\ufffdGood morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3]\ufffd The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.\ufffd
Bob
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-02 by Mark Fontana
\ufffdyou suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?
On 9/2/2014 5:31 AM, PianoBench@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdGood morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3]\ufffd The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.\ufffd
Bob
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-02 by Spencer Chase
\ufffd
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible.\ufffd\ufffd One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdyou suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?
On 9/2/2014 5:31 AM, PianoBench@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdGood morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3]\ufffd The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.\ufffd
Bob
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-03 by Carol Beigel
to be clear, do you think it might work to process all events in order and to add one tick (cumulatively) to each event that follows the first at the same time. does the note on occur first followed by some number of other events with delta time 0? if i change the first delta time event following the note on to a delta time of 1, and any subsequent ones also to one, this would make a series of events all one tick after the previous. should not be difficult to do. is it worth trying? have you tried this? anyone else offer it as a utility?
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible. One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:you suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?Good morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer--playback using another MIDI deviceUnless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:Regards,PianoBenchOn Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3] The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.Bob-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@spencerserolls.com http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-03 by Mark Fontana
\ufffdto be clear, do you think it might work to process all events in order and to add one tick (cumulatively) to each event that follows the first at the same time. does the note on occur first followed by some number of other events with delta time 0? if i change the first delta time event following the note on to a delta time of 1, and any subsequent ones also to one, this would make a series of events all one tick after the previous. should not be difficult to do. is it worth trying? have you tried this? anyone else offer it as a utility?
On 9/2/2014 9:42 AM, Mark Fontana mark@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffd
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible.\ufffd\ufffd One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdyou suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?
On 9/2/2014 5:31 AM, PianoBench@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdGood morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3]\ufffd The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.\ufffd
Bob
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-03 by Spencer Chase
\ufffd
To avoid distorting the timing, you'd leave each note-on at its original tick offset in the file and adjust the delta times of the note-on and preceding XP events to indicate an order by spacing them a tick apart, such that no elapsed time is added or lost.\ufffd This would involve moving the XP events slightly earlier in time, so your processing would require a global view of the events.
I'm assuming that a key problem when editing XP files is that the editing software thinks it's OK to rearrange the order of events occurring at the same tick.
On 09/02/2014 12:11 PM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdto be clear, do you think it might work to process all events in order and to add one tick (cumulatively) to each event that follows the first at the same time. does the note on occur first followed by some number of other events with delta time 0? if i change the first delta time event following the note on to a delta time of 1, and any subsequent ones also to one, this would make a series of events all one tick after the previous. should not be difficult to do. is it worth trying? have you tried this? anyone else offer it as a utility?
On 9/2/2014 9:42 AM, Mark Fontana mark@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffd
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible.\ufffd\ufffd One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdyou suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?
On 9/2/2014 5:31 AM, PianoBench@... [disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdGood morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3]\ufffd The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.\ufffd
Bob
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-03 by Robert Hall
2014-09-03 by PianoBench@...
This was very helpful in clarifying some of the issues, although it mainly
reinforced my own perception of the problem.Regarding your question of the input, I edited the file on a USB flash drive and replayed on theDisklavier using the flash drive.I am a pianist/organist who has a Disklavier at my church and I often am recording weekly -often to do piano/organ duets with myself…I used previous models of Disklavier, mostly in the early 90’s and at that time was able toedit an occasional wrong note right onboard on the Disklavier, without going to an externaleditor. Now, it seems like a offensive wrong note in a recording means redoing the wholething. Not a huge deal, but annoying. Isn't there anyone else out there who plays the odd wrongnote and has found a way of doing a 5- minute editing job on the DK Pro… 8 }Bob----Dr. Robert Hall, Assoc. ProfessorDepartment of MusicLaurentian UniversitySudbury, ON P3E 2C6705-675-1151 x2521
2014-09-03 by Spencer Chase
\ufffdGood afternoon, everyone.
Bob, individual note editing has not been available on the Disklavier since the Mark II, and the Mark II pre-dates the PRO.
At this point in time, the best editor for PRO data of which I am aware is MidiKit for the Mac (http://www.mixagesoftware.com). MidiKit presents you with a simple event list. Changing a note from one pitch to another is pretty easy. It appears as though MidiKit does nothing to change the order of events that are on the same clock tick. In other words, MidiKit appears to be a direct, MIDI event list editor that will not corrupt the XP data when you open or save the file.
If you have a Mac and want to maintain the integrity of the XP data, I suggest using MidiKit. Of course, if you change a note's pitch, you should change the polyphonic aftertouch message that is associated with that note so that the other controller messages on that clock tick are properly associated with the changed note.
However, if you use MidiKit to change a note's pitch and you ignore the surrounding XP events, I think that you'll only lose the extra resolution for that one note and that the extra resolution for all other notes will remain in tact. I doubt that you'll notice that the dynamic for one note is limited to normal MIDI resolution.
Although you may find MidiKit an excellent solution for changing the pitch of a note, it will be cumbersome or impossible to do more extensive edits on XP data, such as change the tempo of a section of the piece, touch up the timing of a note, edit a crescendo, etc.
I don't know of an XP-compatible solution for Windows.
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 3, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
This was very helpful in clarifying some of the issues, although it mainly
reinforced my own perception of the problem.Regarding your question of the input, I edited the file on a USB flash drive and replayed on theDisklavier using the flash drive.
I am a pianist/organist who has a Disklavier at my church and I often am recording weekly -often to do piano/organ duets with myself\ufffd
I used previous models of Disklavier, mostly in the early 90\ufffds and at that time was able toedit an occasional wrong note right onboard on the Disklavier, without going to an externaleditor. Now, it seems like a offensive wrong note in a recording means redoing the wholething. Not a huge deal, but annoying. Isn't there anyone else out there who plays the odd wrongnote and has found a way of doing a 5- minute editing job on the DK Pro\ufffd 8 }
Bob----Dr. Robert Hall, Assoc. ProfessorDepartment of MusicLaurentian UniversitySudbury, ON P3E 2C6705-675-1151 x2521
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-03 by PianoBench@...
To avoid distorting the timing, you'd leave each note-on at its original tick offset in the file and adjust the delta times of the note-on and preceding XP events to indicate an order by spacing them a tick apart, such that no elapsed time is added or lost. This would involve moving the XP events slightly earlier in time, so your processing would require a global view of the events.
I'm assuming that a key problem when editing XP files is that the editing software thinks it's OK to rearrange the order of events occurring at the same tick.
On 09/02/2014 12:11 PM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:to be clear, do you think it might work to process all events in order and to add one tick (cumulatively) to each event that follows the first at the same time. does the note on occur first followed by some number of other events with delta time 0? if i change the first delta time event following the note on to a delta time of 1, and any subsequent ones also to one, this would make a series of events all one tick after the previous. should not be difficult to do. is it worth trying? have you tried this? anyone else offer it as a utility?
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible. One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:you suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?Good morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer--playback using another MIDI deviceUnless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:Regards,PianoBenchOn Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3] The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.Bob-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@spencerserolls.com http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@spencerserolls.com http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2014-09-03 by Spencer Chase
\ufffdMark, Spencer, and Carol,
A few concluding points:
Yes, there was an XGWorks sequencer from Yamaha many years ago. I do not believe that it had any awareness of XP data.
The XP data format is complicated. The short story is that certain controllers are used to associate extra data with each note-on and note-off message. Controllers, however, are not note-specific, and therefore Yamaha uses polyphonic aftertouch messages in order to alert the system to the fact that the controllers which immediately follow the polyphonic aftertouch message on the same clock tick belong to that particular note.
If you want to have all of the fancy editing of a modern sequencer and apply those features to an XP file, you really should have an XP-aware sequencer that hides the extra data from view and makes appropriate adjustments to it when you change the start-time, the velocity, or the pitch of a note-on or note-off message. And, the XP-aware sequencer must maintain the order of events.
The idea of pre-procesing the XP MIDI file to offset the extra data so that a sequencer will not change the order of the XP events is an intriguing idea. However, if you use the sequencer to edit the starting point of note-on or note-off messages, things will start to unravel.
Regards,\ufffdPianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Mark Fontana mark@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
To avoid distorting the timing, you'd leave each note-on at its original tick offset in the file and adjust the delta times of the note-on and preceding XP events to indicate an order by spacing them a tick apart, such that no elapsed time is added or lost.\ufffd This would involve moving the XP events slightly earlier in time, so your processing would require a global view of the events.
I'm assuming that a key problem when editing XP files is that the editing software thinks it's OK to rearrange the order of events occurring at the same tick.
On 09/02/2014 12:11 PM, Spencer Chase\ufffdlists@...\ufffd[disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdto be clear, do you think it might work to process all events in order and to add one tick (cumulatively) to each event that follows the first at the same time. does the note on occur first followed by some number of other events with delta time 0? if i change the first delta time event following the note on to a delta time of 1, and any subsequent ones also to one, this would make a series of events all one tick after the previous. should not be difficult to do. is it worth trying? have you tried this? anyone else offer it as a utility?
\ufffd
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible.\ufffd\ufffd One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase\ufffdlists@...\ufffd[disklavier] wrote:
\ufffdyou suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?
\ufffdGood morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall\ufffdeviscent@...\ufffd[disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3]\ufffd\ufffdThe Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.\ufffd
Bob
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
-- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... http://www.spencerserolls.com (425) 791-0309
2015-07-18 by Patricia Spedden
Hello, I contacted you some months ago about issues with recording a CD using my DC6A Mark III Disklavier. It's finally finished, but I encountered pedal problems that precluded playback/recording on the Disklavier when I recorded straight to Pro Tools. On playback, the Disklavier was unable to properly interpret pedaling; as a result, notes stuck everywhere. Yamaha gave me the name of an Ohio technician who came over & spent hours calibrating everything, with constant contact with the Yamaha technicians in California. The issue was never resolved. Pedaling was perfect when recording just to the Disklavier then playing back, but never when playing back from Pro Tools. They concluded that there was a difference in midi between Pro Tools & the Disklavier. Ultimately, I had to use a virtual piano (Ivory) with which Nashville had a terrible time trying to refine the final sound. I'm wondering if the XP data format discussed below holds the solution to the problem. If so (and that's a big "if so"), do you know of any midi editor programs out there that would be XP-aware? Zenph appears to be defunct. Also, if I recorded each file straight to the Disklavier, how would I get that to an XP-aware midi editor on my computer using the midi out on my RKC55DCD--without compromising the XP data format? And, how would I get it back after editing, again without compromising the XP data format? Sincerely, Patricia Spedden
From: "PianoBench@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Editing file from Disklavier Pro Mark IV
Mark, Spencer, and Carol,
A few concluding points:
Yes, there was an XGWorks sequencer from Yamaha many years ago. I do not believe that it had any awareness of XP data.
The XP data format is complicated. The short story is that certain controllers are used to associate extra data with each note-on and note-off message. Controllers, however, are not note-specific, and therefore Yamaha uses polyphonic aftertouch messages in order to alert the system to the fact that the controllers which immediately follow the polyphonic aftertouch message on the same clock tick belong to that particular note.
If you want to have all of the fancy editing of a modern sequencer and apply those features to an XP file, you really should have an XP-aware sequencer that hides the extra data from view and makes appropriate adjustments to it when you change the start-time, the velocity, or the pitch of a note-on or note-off message. And, the XP-aware sequencer must maintain the order of events.
The idea of pre-procesing the XP MIDI file to offset the extra data so that a sequencer will not change the order of the XP events is an intriguing idea. However, if you use the sequencer to edit the starting point of note-on or note-off messages, things will start to unravel.
Regards, PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Mark Fontana mark@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
To avoid distorting the timing, you'd leave each note-on at its original tick offset in the file and adjust the delta times of the note-on and preceding XP events to indicate an order by spacing them a tick apart, such that no elapsed time is added or lost. This would involve moving the XP events slightly earlier in time, so your processing would require a global view of the events.
I'm assuming that a key problem when editing XP files is that the editing software thinks it's OK to rearrange the order of events occurring at the same tick.
On 09/02/2014 12:11 PM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:
to be clear, do you think it might work to process all events in order and to add one tick (cumulatively) to each event that follows the first at the same time. does the note on occur first followed by some number of other events with delta time 0? if i change the first delta time event following the note on to a delta time of 1, and any subsequent ones also to one, this would make a series of events all one tick after the previous. should not be difficult to do. is it worth trying? have you tried this? anyone else offer it as a utility?
On 9/2/2014 9:42 AM, Mark Fontana mark@... [disklavier] wrote:
To facilitate the use of non-XP-aware editors, it seems like it might be possible to pre-process the XP MIDI file PRIOR to editing, to offset the events by a tick when order needs to be maintained, preserving the original timing of the note-ons whenever possible. One would still need to be cautious when editing to remove all associated events when deleting an XP note and inserting all needed events in the proper order when adding one.
It seems like this would allow most MIDI editors to export an XP MIDI file that would be ready to play without any further processing.
On 09/02/2014 11:26 AM, Spencer Chase lists@... [disklavier] wrote:
you suggest that it is possible to edit a high res dkv file with a conventional sequencer and that the only problem is that the extra events that encode the high res data can be put out of order in the file. a few things of interest:
i am not sure how the conventional sequencer would handle these extra events other than just deleting them if you deleted a note message. i don't see how you could fine tune these events or add them to added or modified notes. maybe this would be rarely necessary and all that is needed is the ability to remvoe them along with the note event and maybe the sequencer would do this.
i know that Cakewalk, for example. does convert to its own format which is pretty much essential as it is impossible (not really, a high speed computer could do it today but still better to convert to realtime) to make much in the way of changes in delta time format. it does make sense that the event order could change. so, if all that is necessary is to put the events in the right order, maybe that would be possible with a post processor. If all events at the same time in a cluster need to be put in a specific order based on type, i could write a program to do that. I process MIDI data in realtime (tick total from start of file) and write the data back in the order I choose so I could do this. Does this sound useful?
On 9/2/2014 5:31 AM, PianoBench@... [disklavier] wrote:
Good morning, Bob.
When I wrote my previous reply, I was curious as to how you were listening to the piece following your edits. Possibilities would have includee:
--playback from internal memory of the Mark IV PRO or from a USB flash drive
--playback on the Mark IV PRO, receiving data from the computer, in which case the Disklavier is set to receive MIDI data in either real time or with a 500ms delay added
--playback using the tone generator of your computer or a soft synth running on your computer
--playback using another MIDI device
Unless you are playing back on the Mark IV PRO from its internal memory or from a USB flash drive, your perception of the quality of the playback may have been affected by any of several factors. I'll assume playback from internal memory or from USB flash drive.
All Disklaviers record performances as MIDI data. The PRO, however, uses normally unused MIDI controllers along with polyphonic aftertouch messages to store extra bits of resolution. This means that note-on and note-off messages are effectively recorded on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 and the left and right pedals are recorded on a scale of 0-255 instead of 0-127. In addition to recording hammer velocity (as note-on messages), the PRO also records key down velocity.
In theory, you should be able to edit a PRO recording in a MIDI sequencer and not lose any of the granularity of the recorded data. However, typical MIDI sequencers are not pure MIDI editors: most of them import MIDI data into their own format and then export to MIDI when you are done. During the import and/or export process, they typically mess with the order of the extra MIDI events that you find in a PRO file. These extra MIDI events, which occur on the same clock tick, must be in a particular order so that the Disklavier can interpret them correctly.
It is entirely possibly that when you edited and saved your file, you effectively lost the granularity of the data. However, the overall range of expression (from the softest to the loudest notes) should be unchanged. Your PRO has an amazing set of solenoids and an advanced servo mechanism, which means that it should do a really great job playing data with normal MIDI resolution.
Regrettably, there are no good choices for a program that can edit the MIDI data in a PRO recording.
For more information about how the PRO works, you might want to check out the video that I made and posted on the home page of the Disklavier Education Network:
www.yamahaden.com
Regards,PianoBench
On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Robert Hall eviscent@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
After I edited there seemed to be less discrepancy, the performance seemed more crude. I had read the promo about the Pro technology which is summarized here: (lifted from Wikipedia)
In 1999, "Disklavier Pro" was introduced to the American market, the "II Pro". A key selling feature of this version was a claim of greater playback accuracy than had been possible with previously available models.[3] The Pro made use of a proprietary enhancement of MIDI data, which subdivided the timing information in an effort to allow greater precision. Rather than using the standard 127 levels of midi velocity, Yamaha introduced 1023 levels for KeyAfterTouch, NoteOn and NoteOff. A similar principle was applied to the pedal performance data, using 256 increments of measurement in an effort to allow finer capture and reproduction of, for example, half and quarter pedaling by the player. These developments allowed Yamaha to claim a greater overall accuracy in the reproduction of an original piano performance.[3]I assumed that perhaps in editing in the Midi format I had lost something.
Bob
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Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
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Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(425) 791-0309