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2006-02-22 by tontaub
Hi, is it possible to achive linear detuning with at least a pair of ZOs? I.e. the set beating between the two ZOs stays at the same rate while playing up and down the keyboard. If yes, how can this be done? Thanks a lot, Michael.
2006-02-22 by tuninghead
Hi Michael, You are not the first to have asked this question. The answer is no - with a workaround. The Zeroscillator is controlled both linearly and exponentially. Because you use exponential control to play up and down the keyboard, ratios between frequencies remain constant and not offsets. This results in the transposition of beat frequencies between oscillators in the way you are familiar. You can try to control the beating (or at least the perception of beating) by using an LFO at the beat frequency you want. Experiment with either modulation input on one or both ZOs (inverted LFO into the second) and dial in enough for the effect you are looking for. This really provides the ultimate control over the beat. BTW, this should work with normal VCOs as well. Hope this helps. Good luck. --Mark Barton --- In The_Cyndustries_List@yahoogroups.com, "tontaub" <egroups@...> wrote:
> > Hi, > is it possible to achive linear detuning with at least a pair of ZOs? > I.e. the set beating between the two ZOs stays at the same rate while > playing up and down the keyboard. > > If yes, how can this be done? > > Thanks a lot, Michael. >
2006-02-23 by john mahoney
> > is it possible to achive linear detuning with at least a pair of ZOs? > > I.e. the set beating between the two ZOs stays at the same rate while > > playing up and down the keyboard. > The Zeroscillator is controlled both linearly and exponentially. > Because you use exponential control to play up and down the keyboard, > ratios between frequencies remain constant and not offsets. This > results in the transposition of beat frequencies between oscillators > in the way you are familiar. Can't you run the keyboard pitch CV into the expo inputs (for normal pitch tracking) and a detune/offset CV into one osc's linear FM input (for beating)? Oh, wait... does a linear FM CV produce different frequency offsets at different oscillator frequencies? Okay, it's example time: Say the osc is running at 1000Hz and we feed a certain CV (level = X) into the linear FM input to yield an output frequency of 1004Hz. If the osc's base frequency is 2000Hz, will that same linear FM CV (level = X) produce 2004Hx? Or something different, like 2002 (half) or maybe something unpredictable (2002.735Hz or something)? -- john
2006-02-23 by tuninghead
Hi John, You are laboring under a misconception (which can be painful). There is no such thing as a "base" frequency in the ZO. The freq of the oscillator follows this relationship: F = K * LinCV * 2^ExpCV where: F = oscillator frequency K = a constant LinCV = sum of all linear control voltages ExpCV = sum of all exponential control voltages It is now obvious that every 1V increase of ExpCV bumps one octave and every _doubling_ of LinCV bumps one octave. This equation also reveals the need for linear bias because if LinCV = 0, the oscillator stops. You can also see that F becomes negative for negative LinCV. To sum it all up (no pun), LinCV does not have a constant shifting effect. The amount LinCV will move F is dependent on ExpCV. Also, because the relationship is multiplicative and not additive, we do not need to scale our LinCVs with frequency to achieve constant timbre up and down the keyboard as classical FM would dictate. I hope this clears this up for all. If not, ask again and I'll try again. Cynthia, John and I want you to get the most out of your Zeroscillators and the best way to do that is to be armed with money...uh ah I mean knowledge. Yeah that's it, knowledge. --Mark Barton --- In The_Cyndustries_List@yahoogroups.com, "john mahoney" <jmahoney@...> wrote: > > > > is it possible to achive linear detuning with at least a pair of ZOs? > > > I.e. the set beating between the two ZOs stays at the same rate while > > > playing up and down the keyboard. > > > The Zeroscillator is controlled both linearly and exponentially. > > Because you use exponential control to play up and down the keyboard, > > ratios between frequencies remain constant and not offsets. This > > results in the transposition of beat frequencies between oscillators > > in the way you are familiar. > > Can't you run the keyboard pitch CV into the expo inputs (for normal pitch > tracking) and a detune/offset CV into one osc's linear FM input (for > beating)? Oh, wait... does a linear FM CV produce different frequency > offsets at different oscillator frequencies? Okay, it's example time: > > Say the osc is running at 1000Hz and we feed a certain CV (level = X) into > the linear FM input to yield an output frequency of 1004Hz. If the osc's > base frequency is 2000Hz, will that same linear FM CV (level = X) produce
> 2004Hx? Or something different, like 2002 (half) or maybe something > unpredictable (2002.735Hz or something)? > -- > john >
2006-02-23 by john mahoney
> You are laboring under a misconception (which can be painful). ... It was! Thanks for removing it. ;-) > I hope this clears this up for all. If not, ask again and I'll try > again. Cynthia, John and I want you to get the most out of your > Zeroscillators and the best way to do that is to be armed with > money...uh ah I mean knowledge. Yeah that's it, knowledge. > > --Mark Barton That was a nice, detailed answer. My only real problem is figuring out how to justify the expenditure! -- john (Secondary problem is deciding between dotcom and MOTM formats. I currently have more of the former and prefer the way it looks, but I'll eventually have just as much MOTM/etc and am content with how it looks. I just think the MOTM version will be easier to unload if I ever -- horrors! -- have to sell the modular.)
2006-02-23 by Mike Marsh
--- In The_Cyndustries_List@yahoogroups.com, "john mahoney" <jmahoney@...> wrote: > > That was a nice, detailed answer. My only real problem is figuring out how > to justify the expenditure! > -- > john > That *was* a great answer: even I understood it! I think when you hear the ZO in your rig you won't have a problem justifying the expense; at least I didn't, and it kinda hurt my synth budget! Mike
2006-02-24 by Larry T.
--- In The_Cyndustries_List@yahoogroups.com, "john mahoney" <jmahoney@...> wrote: > <snip> > john > > (Secondary problem is deciding between dotcom and MOTM formats. I currently > have more of the former and prefer the way it looks, but I'll eventually > have just as much MOTM/etc and am content with how it looks. I just think > the MOTM version will be easier to unload if I ever -- horrors! -- have to > sell the modular.) > John Go for the DotCom look. From what I've seen in the last few years, the DocCom stuff that does come up for sale goes really quicky and at very close to list price. Nothing against MOTM, I have modules from both and love them both, but I really prefer the DocCom look and feel. The MOTM pots may be military grade, but I prefer a pot that has some resistance when I turn it! Larry T. (forced to wait for Xmas 2006 before beaing able to order a ZO) :-(
2006-02-24 by john mahoney
> John > > Go for the DotCom look. From what I've seen in the last few years, > the DocCom stuff that does come up for sale goes really quicky and at > very close to list price. Nothing against MOTM, I have modules from > both and love them both, but I really prefer the DocCom look and feel. > The MOTM pots may be military grade, but I prefer a pot that has some > resistance when I turn it! > > Larry T. > > (forced to wait for Xmas 2006 before beaing able to order a ZO) :-( I *should* wait, too, but I'd just as soon beat the price increase. Good point about the good market for dotcom modules (I've bought 3, myself), however the ZO is a hgh end product whereas the dotcom market tends to be more value-oriented. I didn't realize that the dotcom and MOTM ZOs use different pots. That's taking the compatible formatting to the Nth degree! Decisions, decisions... ;-) -- john
2006-02-24 by John Loffink
MOTM/Synthesis Technology uses expensive Spectrol and Bourns pots. The Cyndustries ZO uses less expensive pots, except the multiturn tuning pot which is likely a $20-30 part. The MOTM ZO Tuning knob has a feel similar to MOTM EG knobs. The other MOTM ZO knobs have a feel closer to Synthesizers.com. I don't recall reading any claims that the ZO MOTM format module uses MOTM style pots. John Loffink The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: The_Cyndustries_List@yahoogroups.com > > I didn't realize that the dotcom and MOTM ZOs use different pots. That's > taking the compatible formatting to the Nth degree! >
2006-02-24 by Cynthia
--- In The_Cyndustries_List@yahoogroups.com, "John Loffink" <jloffink@...> wrote: > > MOTM/Synthesis Technology uses expensive Spectrol and Bourns pots. The > Cyndustries ZO uses less expensive pots, except the multiturn tuning pot > which is likely a $20-30 part. The MOTM ZO Tuning knob has a feel similar > to MOTM EG knobs. The other MOTM ZO knobs have a feel closer to > Synthesizers.com. I don't recall reading any claims that the ZO MOTM format > module uses MOTM style pots. Howdy all! Yes John is right, we're using a different type of potentiometer than Paul uses. Ourt criteria of an ideal pot was to find a high quality pot that would fit ~mechanically~ into our unique multi-layer Front Panel Circuit Board Subassemblies. It had to be a good pot, and it had to fit our unique construction methods. We are using the same pots for both the MOTM and Synthesizers Dotcom versions. There are all kinds of user preferences from "pots that spin easily" ... to pots that spin like "turning a spoon in a jar of honey" Personally I prefer a little viscosity, but that's just me. As for sealed or unsealed, one would think that sealed pots make more sense and they do theoretically, but I've also encountered noisy ~sealed~ pots in the past. I'm sure that this must be the exception however. Speaking of pots... John has just annouced some really nifty PC boardlettes for running flying leads to the High Quality Spectrol Pots that MOTM users love... They're called "Pot Chiclets" http://www.wavemakers-synth.com/motm/chiclets.html These look really great John! Anyone doing DIY electronics should consider using these they're a great idea! Thanks John for such a cool and useful product! Cynthia
2006-02-24 by John Loffink
Thanks for the plug! Pot Chiclets are especially nice if you like the "silky smooth" knob feel. :-) John Loffink The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
> > Speaking of pots... John has just annouced some really nifty PC > boardlettes for > running flying leads to the High Quality Spectrol Pots that MOTM users > love... > > They're called "Pot Chiclets" > > http://www.wavemakers-synth.com/motm/chiclets.html > > These look really great John! > > Anyone doing DIY electronics should consider using these they're a great > idea! > > Thanks John for such a cool and useful product! > > > Cynthia > >
2006-02-24 by Jason Proctor
i'd like to stiffen up my knobs. is there a chiclet that will do this?
>:-} >Thanks for the plug! Pot Chiclets are especially nice if you like the >"silky smooth" knob feel. :-) > >John Loffink >The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site >http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com >The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site >http://www.wavemakers-synth.com >
2006-02-25 by David Bartz
i'd like to stiffen up my knobs. is there a chiclet that will do this?
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David Bartz
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2006-02-28 by Michael Zacherl (aka TonTaub)
Hi Mark,
many thanks for that comprehensive answers you provided!
They help a lot to better understand the "mechanics" behind voltage
control.
cheers, Michael.
> You can try to control the beating (or at least the perception of
> beating) by using an LFO at the beat frequency you want. Experiment
> with either modulation input on one or both ZOs (inverted LFO into the
> second) and dial in enough for the effect you are looking for. This
> really provides the ultimate control over the beat. BTW, this should
> work with normal VCOs as well.
...> To sum it all up (no pun), LinCV does not have a constant shifting > effect. The amount LinCV will move F is dependent on ExpCV. Also, > because the relationship is multiplicative and not additive, we do not > need to scale our LinCVs with frequency to achieve constant timbre up > and down the keyboard as classical FM would dictate.