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Controlling a serge

Controlling a serge

2009-01-12 by klaussununu

Until my ship comes in and I can afford a new tkb, or in the more
unlikely event that someone decides to sell a used one, can anyone
offer suggestions as to how can I control my serge animal panel?

I had the pleasure of "playing" it with a buchla keyboard and it was
really great. Obviously, I can't afford anything buchla.

I know I've perused the archives in the past, but I can't get the
search function to work.

I'm wondering if anyone else out there uses a keyboard controller, or
midi to cv unit with their serge. Any ground issues, or
incompatibility? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Klaus

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-12 by Kylee Kennedy

I've used my TB-303's CV and Gate outs to my Serge panel. Also I think I've used my Monome out to a Kenton Pro2000. No grounding issues, just be careful how you rig it up. The main thing I use for my clock and extra LFOs is the Flame Clockwork. I use that to push my TKB ;)
I think Doepfer and Synthesizers.com both sell CV Keyboards but I'm more of a sequencer type musician.


Peace,
Kylee

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-13 by frank death

Klaus,
what Buchla 'keyboard' did you use?
The reason i ask, is because i'm curious if the 222e touchplate/input port might work with modules other than Buchlas.

-Matt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- On Mon, 12/1/09, klaussununu <feedandseedrecords@...> wrote:

> From: klaussununu <feedandseedrecords@...>
> Subject: [SergeModular] Controlling a serge
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 10:50 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Until my ship comes in and I can afford a
> new tkb, or in the more
>
> unlikely event that someone decides to sell a used one, can
> anyone
>
> offer suggestions as to how can I control my serge animal
> panel?
>
>
>
> I had the pleasure of "playing" it with a buchla
> keyboard and it was
>
> really great. Obviously, I can't afford anything
> buchla.
>
>
>
> I know I've perused the archives in the past, but I
> can't get the
>
> search function to work.
>
>
>
> I'm wondering if anyone else out there uses a keyboard
> controller, or
>
> midi to cv unit with their serge. Any ground issues, or
>
> incompatibility? Any suggestions would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Klaus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-13 by zaum

> Until my ship comes in and I can afford a new tkb, or in the more
> unlikely event that someone decides to sell a used one, can anyone
> offer suggestions as to how can I control my serge animal panel?

I've found Serge's CV and gate inputs quite easy to control
externally with standard gear, all you need is to get whatever you
use into a banana.

I started with a kenton pro solo and often use a Roland MC202 for
live gigs since it's so portable, has a sequencer and a voice I can
send through my Serge panel. I'd think anything with standard gate
and 1v/oct would work fine.
>
>
> I'm wondering if anyone else out there uses a keyboard controller, or
> midi to cv unit with their serge. Any ground issues, or
> incompatibility? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I have some adaptors on a single space because I have a custom system
with extra room because of the extra wide external carrier freq
shifter, so my ground issues are taken care of though I have not had
any trouble I can remember with home made cables for CV with the tip
of a mini or phono connected to a banana. If you don't have that and
you do have a ground problem it should be very easy to make a scratch
built panel or box with the ground jack Serge I'm sure provides
somewhere on your system and some jacks

What would certainly be more of a challenge is something non-standard
in proportion to how non-standard it is. Like for example a Korg
MS-20 would have Hz/v and their odd vintage trigger so that won't be
plug and play.

> I think Doepfer and Synthesizers.com both sell CV Keyboards but I'm
> more of
> a sequencer type musician.

A point worth noting is every currently made regular keyboard on the
market that outputs a CV and gate is really a MIDI keyboard mechanism
with a MIDI to CV converter attached inside the case. No manufacturer
has made a standard key CV gate keyboard since the early 1980s. I'm
saying "standard key" because I'm not talking about a touch plate
system like the TKB or Buchla 222e. So my point is there really is
nothing special in the keyboard itself that you can't do with any
MIDI keyboard and a converter unless of course you like some sort of
extra feature like say a built in joystick or that French Connection
ring (though the unit is far shy of what a real Ondes Martenot can do).

As for the Buchla 222e, Don is saying he'll be delivering more soon,
why I mention that is that there isn't much feedback from users yet.
I think there were issues with the original touch surface
manufacturer. What I do know for sure is as currently configured it's
not really recommended or that suitable for use with a minimal system
or on it's own. It really needs to be in a 12 or 16 module case to
connect, power and orient it (it's ranged to being on a vertical top
boat and a horizontal bottom boat) and wants to talk to a preset
manager module. Buchla's combined trigger/gate and CV are not
standard though it's not impossible to make use of them, just not
near a plug and play situation if you want to make use of most of it.

nick

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-14 by klaussununu

Comte Du Matt,

I was using the buchla 218 (1/2 of the music easel) with my animal
panel. I haven't used the 222e, but a buchla friend of mine suspects
it would work. We've been cross patching the animal and the easel to
great results.

yours,
Klaus
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, frank death <maldoroar@...> wrote:
>
> Klaus,
> what Buchla 'keyboard' did you use?
> The reason i ask, is because i'm curious if the 222e
touchplate/input port might work with modules other than Buchlas.
>
> -Matt
>
> --- On Mon, 12/1/09, klaussununu <feedandseedrecords@...> wrote:
>
> > From: klaussununu <feedandseedrecords@...>
> > Subject: [SergeModular] Controlling a serge
> > To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> > Received: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 10:50 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Until my ship comes in and I can afford a
> > new tkb, or in the more
> >
> > unlikely event that someone decides to sell a used one, can
> > anyone
> >
> > offer suggestions as to how can I control my serge animal
> > panel?
> >
> >
> >
> > I had the pleasure of "playing" it with a buchla
> > keyboard and it was
> >
> > really great. Obviously, I can't afford anything
> > buchla.
> >
> >
> >
> > I know I've perused the archives in the past, but I
> > can't get the
> >
> > search function to work.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm wondering if anyone else out there uses a keyboard
> > controller, or
> >
> > midi to cv unit with their serge. Any ground issues, or
> >
> > incompatibility? Any suggestions would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Klaus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter
inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
>

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-14 by klaussununu

Thanks, Nick.

I will dig out my 202 tonight. This gives me new purpose to finish my
multiple panels.

I have my animal panel mounted in a Halliburton Zero case like an
easel, which provides plenty of room for 2 panels, nearly a 1u rack
(which I have outfitted wtih 1/8in to banana), and the psu. I hope to
complete the setup with a TKB.

By the way, I do not have a serge power supply. My tech outfitted the
case with the appropriate power 1 supply. I have patch points for the
audio ground so I can connect to other pieces of gear.

I was curious about applying external cv to the serge and I wondered
if I would need to ground machines similarly for control. But it looks
like that is not a concern.

And yes, you're right about midi to cv keyboards. However, the .com
keyboard looks handsome with the real wood, so at least it doesn't
look like those plastic units so commonly peddled these days.

Thanks to all for the help.

Klaus

ps...someone sell me a TKB!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, zaum <zaum@...> wrote:
>
> > Until my ship comes in and I can afford a new tkb, or in the more
> > unlikely event that someone decides to sell a used one, can anyone
> > offer suggestions as to how can I control my serge animal panel?
>
> I've found Serge's CV and gate inputs quite easy to control
> externally with standard gear, all you need is to get whatever you
> use into a banana.
>
> I started with a kenton pro solo and often use a Roland MC202 for
> live gigs since it's so portable, has a sequencer and a voice I can
> send through my Serge panel. I'd think anything with standard gate
> and 1v/oct would work fine.
> >
> >
> > I'm wondering if anyone else out there uses a keyboard controller, or
> > midi to cv unit with their serge. Any ground issues, or
> > incompatibility? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I have some adaptors on a single space because I have a custom system
> with extra room because of the extra wide external carrier freq
> shifter, so my ground issues are taken care of though I have not had
> any trouble I can remember with home made cables for CV with the tip
> of a mini or phono connected to a banana. If you don't have that and
> you do have a ground problem it should be very easy to make a scratch
> built panel or box with the ground jack Serge I'm sure provides
> somewhere on your system and some jacks
>
> What would certainly be more of a challenge is something non-standard
> in proportion to how non-standard it is. Like for example a Korg
> MS-20 would have Hz/v and their odd vintage trigger so that won't be
> plug and play.
>
> > I think Doepfer and Synthesizers.com both sell CV Keyboards but I'm
> > more of
> > a sequencer type musician.
>
> A point worth noting is every currently made regular keyboard on the
> market that outputs a CV and gate is really a MIDI keyboard mechanism
> with a MIDI to CV converter attached inside the case. No manufacturer
> has made a standard key CV gate keyboard since the early 1980s. I'm
> saying "standard key" because I'm not talking about a touch plate
> system like the TKB or Buchla 222e. So my point is there really is
> nothing special in the keyboard itself that you can't do with any
> MIDI keyboard and a converter unless of course you like some sort of
> extra feature like say a built in joystick or that French Connection
> ring (though the unit is far shy of what a real Ondes Martenot can do).
>
> As for the Buchla 222e, Don is saying he'll be delivering more soon,
> why I mention that is that there isn't much feedback from users yet.
> I think there were issues with the original touch surface
> manufacturer. What I do know for sure is as currently configured it's
> not really recommended or that suitable for use with a minimal system
> or on it's own. It really needs to be in a 12 or 16 module case to
> connect, power and orient it (it's ranged to being on a vertical top
> boat and a horizontal bottom boat) and wants to talk to a preset
> manager module. Buchla's combined trigger/gate and CV are not
> standard though it's not impossible to make use of them, just not
> near a plug and play situation if you want to make use of most of it.
>
> nick
>

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-15 by matthew carpenter

Sounds nice! Do you have any pictures?

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:55 PM, klaussununu <feedandseedrecords@...> wrote:

...

I have my animal panel mounted in a Halliburton Zero case like an
easel, which provides plenty of room for 2 panels, nearly a 1u rack
(which I have outfitted wtih 1/8in to banana), and the psu. I hope to
complete the setup with a TKB.

By the way, I do not have a serge power supply. My tech outfitted the
case with the appropriate power 1 supply. I have patch points for the
audio ground so I can connect to other pieces of gear.


Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-15 by zaum

> I was using the buchla 218 (1/2 of the music easel) with my animal
> panel. I haven't used the 222e, but a buchla friend of mine suspects
> it would work. We've been cross patching the animal and the easel to
> great results.

To clarify, I'm sure it will do something since it does output usable
but not standard CV and gate. Since a user might be using it in a
more gestural or event triggering way one would definitely be able to
use it somehow quite easily. More at issue I'd say would be how much
of what it does would one not get or not really be optimum without
more of a 200e system.

Someone on the 200e group stuck both modules and the AFG Sequencer in
what looks like a face up lying boat inside a Roland SH5 with the
keys cut out. Now I'm sure there is some compromise there but it is
something that can work.

nick

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-15 by frank death

I think he photoshopped the touchplate (i could be wrong). I guess it all depends on what that kinesthetic input port module does, and whether the touchplate needs it for power or voltage reference...I'm not sure. But the Animal & Easel combination sounds like great fun!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- On Thu, 15/1/09, zaum <zaum@...> wrote:

> From: zaum <zaum@...>
> Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Controlling a serge
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 10:22 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I was using the buchla 218 (1/2 of the
> music easel) with my animal
>
> > panel. I haven't used the 222e, but a buchla
> friend of mine suspects
>
> > it would work. We've been cross patching the
> animal and the easel to
>
> > great results.
>
>
>
> To clarify, I'm sure it will do something since it does
> output usable
>
> but not standard CV and gate. Since a user might be using
> it in a
>
> more gestural or event triggering way one would definitely
> be able to
>
> use it somehow quite easily. More at issue I'd say
> would be how much
>
> of what it does would one not get or not really be optimum
> without
>
> more of a 200e system.
>
>
>
> Someone on the 200e group stuck both modules and the AFG
> Sequencer in
>
> what looks like a face up lying boat inside a Roland SH5
> with the
>
> keys cut out. Now I'm sure there is some compromise
> there but it is
>
> something that can work.
>
>
>
> nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-15 by John P

In years past I played with a guy who had a Kenton Pro something or
other interface... he would be running an electribe rhythmn box and send
me a clock pulse via the Kenton, where I'd use it to trigger envelopes,
s/h, sequencer, etc. worked great.

klaussununu wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-15 by John P

I should say, yes, the Kenton needed to be grounded to my Serge power
supply (black banana jack).

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-16 by zaum

> I think he photoshopped the touchplate (i could be wrong). I guess
> it all depends on what that kinesthetic input port module does, and
> whether the touchplate needs it for power or voltage reference.

The photo of the Buchla 200e boat stuck in place of a set of Roland
SH5 yeyboard is here--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/200e/photos/recent/1976326159/view
though you may need to be a group member to see it.

I don't see anything that doesn't look real. the input port module is
in the middle. what's non-standard is the horizontal mounting of it
next to the touch surface module. It's not that it won't work but the
range for the ring controllers isn't very optimal oriented that way.
As for needing both pieces, that's a must, it's not like the
touchplate has it's own CV outputs, they are on the input port
module. I'd suspect the microprocessor(s) are in the other module too.

What he doesn't seem to have is a preset manager. You don't have to
have one but to get the most out of the 222e you'd probably want to
store more than one 222e configuration and more than one sequence.

> ..I'm not sure. But the Animal & Easel combination sounds like
> great fun!

Definitely, though I'd think the odds of getting a TKB are much
greater than finding an Easel (unless of course Don has a new one in
the works)

nick

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-18 by frank death

Someone on the Buchla yahoo group just wrote that the 222e Input port/ touchplate can be programmed to different voltage increments (doesn't have to be 1.2v/octave)...You can even set it up to play 'chords', and who knows, possibly even to quantize!
Is it possible to do something similar with the TKB?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- On Fri, 16/1/09, zaum <zaum@...> wrote:

> From: zaum <zaum@...>
> Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Controlling a serge
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 9:04 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think he photoshopped the touchplate
> (i could be wrong). I guess
>
> > it all depends on what that kinesthetic input port
> module does, and
>
> > whether the touchplate needs it for power or voltage
> reference.
>
>
>
> The photo of the Buchla 200e boat stuck in place of a set
> of Roland
>
> SH5 yeyboard is here--
>
> http://groups.
> yahoo.com/ group/200e/ photos/recent/ 1976326159/ view
>
> though you may need to be a group member to see it.
>
>
>
> I don't see anything that doesn't look real. the
> input port module is
>
> in the middle. what's non-standard is the horizontal
> mounting of it
>
> next to the touch surface module. It's not that it
> won't work but the
>
> range for the ring controllers isn't very optimal
> oriented that way.
>
> As for needing both pieces, that's a must, it's not
> like the
>
> touchplate has it's own CV outputs, they are on the
> input port
>
> module. I'd suspect the microprocessor( s) are in the
> other module too.
>
>
>
> What he doesn't seem to have is a preset manager. You
> don't have to
>
> have one but to get the most out of the 222e you'd
> probably want to
>
> store more than one 222e configuration and more than one
> sequence.
>
>
>
> > ..I'm not sure. But the Animal & Easel
> combination sounds like
>
> > great fun!
>
>
>
> Definitely, though I'd think the odds of getting a TKB
> are much
>
> greater than finding an Easel (unless of course Don has a
> new one in
>
> the works)
>
>
>
> nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-18 by nicholas_kent

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, frank death <maldoroar@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Someone on the Buchla yahoo group just wrote that the 222e Input port/ touchplate can
be programmed to different voltage increments (doesn't have to be 1.2v/octave)...You can
even set it up to play 'chords', and who knows, possibly even to quantize!
> Is it possible to do something similar with the TKB?
>

Definitely, though they both have very different interfaces.

On the 222e are using an LCD to program a defined output behavior for each pad (which
can then be optionally be stored with a preset manager module for multiple configuration
sets). Besides CV and trigger/gate outputs there is a data bus which can internally send
note values along 4 oscillator channels plus a number of other data bus channels for other
kinds of data in addition to the physical outputs. Also for what it's worth you have a pair
of rings delivering 3D info but no step sequencer ability like on the TKB.

Now something you might or might not be saying which I don't know the answer to since I
don't have one or have seen the manual. I know 14 of the 27 of the touch surfaces return
a finger position on the pad value. I don't know if you could take a position value and
quantitize it to say chromatic steps internally let alone define those steps as something
other than 1.2 v/oct. Your friend might just be talking about what you can adjust an
individual pad to as the basic voltage value it outputs, and that you can definitely do via a
numeric value - so it's no problem individually defining touchplates with standard notes
values in say a 1v/oct scale. Because there are multiple outputs you can define several
actions to occur on touching each plate (chords). Now does it do anything like quantitize a
variable output? I don't know but suspect not since I've not heard of anyone doing that.


On the TKB you have 4 pots per touchplate. You can manually adjust 4 voltages which
could easily each control a separate VCO for a chord. It's not going to give you voltage
rounded to any scale. You are going to need to manually adjust the voltages like any
traditional CV step sequencer or get am optional quantitizer for each channel of VCO
control you want to control.

This question did get me thinking (since I don't actually have a TKB or a 222e for that
matter). What is the behavior of a TKB when pushing more than one touchplate at the
same time? Is it just the highest step priority?

Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-19 by frank death

Thanks Nick for the information. By 'quantize', i was more thinking of a situation where you program voltages of different increments over 10 parts of the touchplate, and that way you could play a 'quantized' chord (if i'm understanding it correctly). This would be very powerful, in that one could experiment with all kinds of exotic tunings.
I read today about Andre Stordeur's use of the TKB to emulate a Balafong-

http://www.angelfire.com/music2/theanalogcottage/balafong.htm

I'm also interested in your question about the TKB having a high step priority. Can a user set it up so that each channel outputs simultaneously, or is it sequential only? That is, is it possible to use it to play 'chords'? (using up to 10 fingers, for example). I've only ever read about the TKB being used sequentially.
This led me to think about the recent topic here "what Serge m-odules would you like to see". I'd be interested in a TKB with no sequencer, just each touchpad having maybe 3 control outputs that you can adjust for sensitivity. That would be my ideal controller.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- On Sun, 18/1/09, nicholas_kent <zaum@...> wrote:

> From: nicholas_kent <zaum@...>
> Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Controlling a serge
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 12:15 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In SergeModular@
> yahoogroups. com, frank death <maldoroar@. ..>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Someone on the Buchla yahoo group just wrote that the
> 222e Input port/ touchplate can
>
> be programmed to different voltage increments (doesn't
> have to be 1.2v/octave) ...You can
>
> even set it up to play 'chords', and who knows,
> possibly even to quantize!
>
> > Is it possible to do something similar with the TKB?
>
> >
>
>
>
> Definitely, though they both have very different
> interfaces.
>
>
>
> On the 222e are using an LCD to program a defined output
> behavior for each pad (which
>
> can then be optionally be stored with a preset manager
> module for multiple configuration
>
> sets). Besides CV and trigger/gate outputs there is a data
> bus which can internally send
>
> note values along 4 oscillator channels plus a number of
> other data bus channels for other
>
> kinds of data in addition to the physical outputs. Also for
> what it's worth you have a pair
>
> of rings delivering 3D info but no step sequencer ability
> like on the TKB.
>
>
>
> Now something you might or might not be saying which I
> don't know the answer to since I
>
> don't have one or have seen the manual. I know 14 of
> the 27 of the touch surfaces return
>
> a finger position on the pad value. I don't know if you
> could take a position value and
>
> quantitize it to say chromatic steps internally let alone
> define those steps as something
>
> other than 1.2 v/oct. Your friend might just be talking
> about what you can adjust an
>
> individual pad to as the basic voltage value it outputs,
> and that you can definitely do via a
>
> numeric value - so it's no problem individually
> defining touchplates with standard notes
>
> values in say a 1v/oct scale. Because there are multiple
> outputs you can define several
>
> actions to occur on touching each plate (chords). Now does
> it do anything like quantitize a
>
> variable output? I don't know but suspect not since
> I've not heard of anyone doing that.
>
>
>
> On the TKB you have 4 pots per touchplate. You can manually
> adjust 4 voltages which
>
> could easily each control a separate VCO for a chord.
> It's not going to give you voltage
>
> rounded to any scale. You are going to need to manually
> adjust the voltages like any
>
> traditional CV step sequencer or get am optional
> quantitizer for each channel of VCO
>
> control you want to control.
>
>
>
> This question did get me thinking (since I don't
> actually have a TKB or a 222e for that
>
> matter). What is the behavior of a TKB when pushing more
> than one touchplate at the
>
> same time? Is it just the highest step priority?
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Re: Controlling a serge

2009-01-19 by zaum

> Thanks Nick for the information. By 'quantize', i was more thinking
> of a situation where you program voltages of different increments
> over 10 parts of the touchplate, and that way you could play a
> 'quantized' chord (if i'm understanding it correctly). This would
> be very powerful, in that one could experiment with all kinds of
> exotic tunings.

Well you can definitely program each touch plate to output a value
you want and there are 4 channels of CV suitable for pitch.

When I brought up "quantitized" I'm meaning the ability to take an
ordinarily smoothly variable output and have it jump to (typically)
the steps of the scale. It's a great use if you want to change values
live and some of the touchplates do put out smoothly variable outputs
besides simply triggering an event.

For what it's worth, Buchla's 250e, their circular laid out sequencer
can quantitize to 0.1 volt increments. Since it's a 1.2v/oct
instrument you get scale half steps if the feature is turned on.

As for experimenting with other tunings, yes, when you can define the
output voltage values of a key or several touch controllers you can
create a custom scale.

While even more expensive than the 222e, it's worth noting that the
Haken Continuum is polyphonic and has user definable quantitizing
scales and mapping of voltages over the surface.
http://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/
You can do things like quantitize the initial touch on the surface to
a user defined scale then have it go unquantitized for fingered
vibrato and bends. You can also optionally have it smoothly round to
the nearest note after x amount of mililseconds after stopping some
kind of manual pitch movement too.

nick

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