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price increases

price increases

2003-09-26 by DarkStr717@aol.com

wow...looks like Rex followed through on his threat. We talked a couple months ago and he said he was going to do it but i've heard that rap from him before. It's not that he wants more blues playing time or has too many orders. It's more along the lines of he can't keep what he considers qualified assemblers so in order to keep the trip going he is having to assemble himself and he realy doesn't care for it or so i gather. there are a few other philosophical considerations going on here as well but there is no point going into them. The man has his way of doing things. Personaly i'm surprized he hasn't shut down or at least gone to just putting together a fixed number of orders per year. Maybe now the panels i have up for sale will seem more like a good deal....hahaha... as if they wern't already.
Kind regards
John DuVal

Re: price increases

2003-09-26 by Les Mizzell

DarkStr717@... wrote:

> Maybe now the panels i have up for sale will seem more like a good
> deal....hahaha... as if they wern't already.
> Kind regards
> John DuVal
>

What have you got up for sale specifically? I forget.

Besides, it wouldn't hurt to remind the list...

--
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
“Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
Virent ova! Viret perna!
Dapem posthac non arcebo.
Gratum tibi me praebebo.”

Re: price increases

2003-09-26 by Peter Grenader

I want to be careful with what I say here. Real careful.

Love the instrument. I REALLY love what Rex has done to it cosmetically.
The Serge is one of the best looking systems going, if not the best. So, it
looks terrific, it sounds terrific. No objections so far.

In the days of fully robotic SMT assembly installations being commonplace,
finding qualified people and/or outside houses to expertly assemble through
hole component PCBAs can't be that difficult. After all, we're talking 25
year old technology - which is true for almost every analog module made by
every manufacturer (I am not saying that Serge's stuff is uniquely old
school by any means).

While the man has every right to do anything he pleases, if in fact he is
raising his prices because he can't find qualified individuals for assembly,
I'm not sure he has looked into all the options. I spent 10 years of my
life in this area of electronic manufacturing. There are sub assemblers all
over the place, either offshore, or in the US needing to remain competitive
with those offshore that would manufacturer to mil spec requirements without
necessitating a 30% plus price increase on a product line which was already
robustly priced.

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about this. It's a shame. Hopefully it's not
placed these fine instruments on the wrong side of the practicality curve.

- Peter

DarkStr717@... wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> wow...looks like Rex followed through on his threat. We talked a couple months
> ago and he said he was going to do it but i've heard that rap from him before.
> It's not that he wants more blues playing time or has too many orders. It's
> more along the lines of he can't keep what he considers qualified assemblers
> so in order to keep the trip going he is having to assemble himself and he
> realy doesn't care for it or so i gather. there are a few other philosophical
> considerations going on here as well but there is no point going into them.
> The man has his way of doing things. Personaly i'm surprized he hasn't shut
> down or at least gone to just putting together a fixed number of orders per
> year. Maybe now the panels i have up for sale will seem more like a good
> deal....hahaha... as if they wern't already.
> Kind regards
> John DuVal
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-09-26 by John Papiewski

And they would do an excellent job with batches of 20 or 30? There must
be minimum orders involved there too.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> While the man has every right to do anything he pleases, if in fact he is
> raising his prices because he can't find qualified individuals for assembly,
> I'm not sure he has looked into all the options. I spent 10 years of my
> life in this area of electronic manufacturing. There are sub assemblers all
> over the place, either offshore, or in the US needing to remain competitive
> with those offshore that would manufacturer to mil spec requirements without
> necessitating a 30% plus price increase on a product line which was already
> robustly priced.

Re: price increases

2003-09-26 by Peter Grenader

Yeah, there are minimums, that's called running an electronics business.
My last employer, M&K, would get lots as small as of 10 each on their power
amp boards. You forecast how many of a certain type you sell in a year, you
make 10 of them, you know how long you have until 10 more will be needed.
There's an outlay of cash, but it can be turned quicker because you have the
product on hand to sell, ship and earn on.

John Papiewski wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> And they would do an excellent job with batches of 20 or 30? There must
> be minimum orders involved there too.
>
>> While the man has every right to do anything he pleases, if in fact he is
>> raising his prices because he can't find qualified individuals for assembly,
>> I'm not sure he has looked into all the options. I spent 10 years of my
>> life in this area of electronic manufacturing. There are sub assemblers all
>> over the place, either offshore, or in the US needing to remain competitive
>> with those offshore that would manufacturer to mil spec requirements without
>> necessitating a 30% plus price increase on a product line which was already
>> robustly priced.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-09-26 by John Papiewski

There are other things going on too... Rex says he spends a lot of time
QC'ing parts. The knobs for example can have flashing, not be polished,
be missing the white index stripe, missing the set screw, etc. I'm sure
some of you out there have heard him talk about this too.
Maybe the board-stuffing part isn't the biggest problem. Anyway I'm
guessing here, and I'm not good at that.

Peter Grenader wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Yeah, there are minimums, that's called running an electronics business.
> My last employer, M&K, would get lots as small as of 10 each on their power
> amp boards. You forecast how many of a certain type you sell in a year, you
> make 10 of them, you know how long you have until 10 more will be needed.
> There's an outlay of cash, but it can be turned quicker because you have the
> product on hand to sell, ship and earn on.
>
>

John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-27 by Les Mizzell

ADVERTISEMENT!

The Serge sale of a couple months ago is back up and running. As before, I will pay shipping. Payment is by cashiers check only preferably drawn on Bank of America but any major bank will do.

Here is a list of the goods:

TKB New $ 1400. Sell $1000.

QTKB / ASR(2) / DTG / RS / SSG / PRO / DSG / ADSR
New $2975 Sell $2300.

NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP
New $2725 Sell $2100

ADSR/NCOM/ACPR/VC CLK/BLOG/SEQ7/
New $2180 Sell $1700

QVM / XFAD / XFAD / MAX / QUO / QUO /
New $2275. Sell $1700.

SPRC / PVCO / PVCO / PVCO / COM / VCM / XFAD / XFAD / XFAD /
MIX2
New$2490. Sell $1900.

VCF2 / VCFS / VCFS / VCFS / VCFQX / VCFQX / VCFQX / EQ
New$2740 Sell $2100.

CM / ENV2 / COM / COM / COM / PDIV / PDIV / VC CLK / ASR / ASR / SPRC / CVM / ACPR / BUFF
New $3340 Sell $ 2400.

All prices are firm.

One more thing, all these are STS Oakland late 90's. I have a few Wisconsin panels and there is
hardly any visual cosmetic difference so not to worry about asthetic compatibility. So... for those of you who have posted me asking about the sale, there it is.

All panels are available. I consider a panel sold when someone posts me and says "Where do I send the cash?". There are no discounts for the purchase of multiple panels. I will NOT split the TKB from it's attendant QTKB panel unless there is no other choice or I get down to my last box of macaroni and
cheese.

Kind regards
John DuVal

--
posted for John by:
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
“Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
Virent ova! Viret perna!
Dapem posthac non arcebo.
Gratum tibi me praebebo.”

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-27 by Les Mizzell

Of course, you'd probably like the EMAIL ADDRESS to get in touch with
John so as to buy those panels, huh?

darkstr1746@...

Les Mizzell wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>ADVERTISEMENT!
>
>The Serge sale of a couple months ago is back up and running. As before, I will pay shipping. Payment is by cashiers check only preferably drawn on Bank of America but any major bank will do.
>
>Here is a list of the goods:
>
>
>TKB New $ 1400. Sell $1000.
>
>QTKB / ASR(2) / DTG / RS / SSG / PRO / DSG / ADSR
>New $2975 Sell $2300.
>
>
>NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP
>New $2725 Sell $2100
>
>ADSR/NCOM/ACPR/VC CLK/BLOG/SEQ7/
>New $2180 Sell $1700
>
>QVM / XFAD / XFAD / MAX / QUO / QUO /
>New $2275. Sell $1700.
>
>SPRC / PVCO / PVCO / PVCO / COM / VCM / XFAD / XFAD / XFAD /
>MIX2
>New$2490. Sell $1900.
>
>VCF2 / VCFS / VCFS / VCFS / VCFQX / VCFQX / VCFQX / EQ
>New$2740 Sell $2100.
>
>CM / ENV2 / COM / COM / COM / PDIV / PDIV / VC CLK / ASR / ASR / SPRC / CVM / ACPR / BUFF
>New $3340 Sell $ 2400.
>
>All prices are firm.
>
>One more thing, all these are STS Oakland late 90's. I have a few Wisconsin panels and there is
>hardly any visual cosmetic difference so not to worry about asthetic compatibility. So... for those of you who have posted me asking about the sale, there it is.
>
>All panels are available. I consider a panel sold when someone posts me and says "Where do I send the cash?". There are no discounts for the purchase of multiple panels. I will NOT split the TKB from it's attendant QTKB panel unless there is no other choice or I get down to my last box of macaroni and
>cheese.
>
>Kind regards
>John DuVal
>
>
>
>
>

--
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
“Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
Virent ova! Viret perna!
Dapem posthac non arcebo.
Gratum tibi me praebebo.”

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-27 by mrmoemorris

I foresee the price of used Serge panels going up and up and up. This is
actually a good thing because the last few Ebay auctions I watched (a while
ago) ended really low.

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "Les Mizzell" <lesmizz@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [SergeModular] John Duval has panels for sale

> Of course, you'd probably like the EMAIL ADDRESS to get in touch with
> John so as to buy those panels, huh?
>
> darkstr1746@...
>
>
> Les Mizzell wrote:
>
> >ADVERTISEMENT!
> >
> >The Serge sale of a couple months ago is back up and running. As before,
I will pay shipping. Payment is by cashiers check only preferably drawn on
Bank of America but any major bank will do.
> >
> >Here is a list of the goods:
> >
> >
> >TKB New $ 1400. Sell $1000.
> >
> >QTKB / ASR(2) / DTG / RS / SSG / PRO / DSG / ADSR
> >New $2975 Sell $2300.
> >
> >
> >NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP
> >New $2725 Sell $2100
> >
> >ADSR/NCOM/ACPR/VC CLK/BLOG/SEQ7/
> >New $2180 Sell $1700
> >
> >QVM / XFAD / XFAD / MAX / QUO / QUO /
> >New $2275. Sell $1700.
> >
> >SPRC / PVCO / PVCO / PVCO / COM / VCM / XFAD / XFAD / XFAD /
> >MIX2
> >New$2490. Sell $1900.
> >
> >VCF2 / VCFS / VCFS / VCFS / VCFQX / VCFQX / VCFQX / EQ
> >New$2740 Sell $2100.
> >
> >CM / ENV2 / COM / COM / COM / PDIV / PDIV / VC CLK / ASR / ASR / SPRC /
CVM / ACPR / BUFF
> >New $3340 Sell $ 2400.
> >
> >All prices are firm.
> >
> >One more thing, all these are STS Oakland late 90's. I have a few
Wisconsin panels and there is
> >hardly any visual cosmetic difference so not to worry about asthetic
compatibility. So... for those of you who have posted me asking about the
sale, there it is.
> >
> >All panels are available. I consider a panel sold when someone posts me
and says "Where do I send the cash?". There are no discounts for the
purchase of multiple panels. I will NOT split the TKB from it's attendant QT
KB panel unless there is no other choice or I get down to my last box of
macaroni and
> >cheese.
> >
> >Kind regards
> >John DuVal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Les Mizzell
> -------------------------
> “Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
> Virent ova! Viret perna!
> Dapem posthac non arcebo.
> Gratum tibi me praebebo.”
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-28 by Peter Grenader

mrmoemorris wrote:

> I foresee the price of used Serge panels going up and up and up This is

actually a good thing because ...<

As a potential buyer of used Serge equipment, why is this a good thing???

:-)

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-28 by pstap

Good evening,

Is this still available?
NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP?

I have $2100, via Bank of America, ready to send in the morning. Send an
address to sen it to :)

Rodney Stapivic

At 12:19 AM 9/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>ADVERTISEMENT!
>
>The Serge sale of a couple months ago is back up and running. As before, I
>will pay shipping. Payment is by cashiers check only preferably drawn on
>Bank of America but any major bank will do.
>
>Here is a list of the goods:
>
>
>TKB New $ 1400. Sell $1000.
>
>QTKB / ASR(2) / DTG / RS / SSG / PRO / DSG / ADSR
>New $2975 Sell $2300.
>
>
>NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP
>New $2725 Sell $2100
>
>ADSR/NCOM/ACPR/VC CLK/BLOG/SEQ7/
>New $2180 Sell $1700
>
>QVM / XFAD / XFAD / MAX / QUO / QUO /
>New $2275. Sell $1700.
>
>SPRC / PVCO / PVCO / PVCO / COM / VCM / XFAD / XFAD / XFAD /
>MIX2
>New$2490. Sell $1900.
>
>VCF2 / VCFS / VCFS / VCFS / VCFQX / VCFQX / VCFQX / EQ
>New$2740 Sell $2100.
>
>CM / ENV2 / COM / COM / COM / PDIV / PDIV / VC CLK / ASR / ASR / SPRC /
>CVM / ACPR / BUFF
>New $3340 Sell $ 2400.
>
>All prices are firm.
>
>One more thing, all these are STS Oakland late 90's. I have a few
>Wisconsin panels and there is
>hardly any visual cosmetic difference so not to worry about asthetic
>compatibility. So... for those of you who have posted me asking about the
>sale, there it is.
>
>All panels are available. I consider a panel sold when someone posts me
>and says "Where do I send the cash?". There are no discounts for the
>purchase of multiple panels. I will NOT split the TKB from it's attendant
>QTKB panel unless there is no other choice or I get down to my last box of
>macaroni and
>cheese.
>
>Kind regards
>John DuVal
>
>
>
>--
>posted for John by:
>Les Mizzell
>-------------------------
>"Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
> Virent ova! Viret perna!
> Dapem posthac non arcebo.
> Gratum tibi me praebebo."
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-28 by Les Mizzell

>
>
> Is this still available?
> NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP?
>
> I have $2100, via Bank of America, ready to send in the morning. Send an
> address to sen it to :)
>

Hey John,

<evil grin>
Do I get a commission?
</evil grin>

Heh.......

--
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
“Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
Virent ova! Viret perna!
Dapem posthac non arcebo.
Gratum tibi me praebebo.”

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-28 by pstap

Wipe that smirk off your face ;)

At 04:52 PM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> > Is this still available?
> > NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX / UAP?
> >
> > I have $2100, via Bank of America, ready to send in the morning. Send an
> > address to sen it to :)
>Hey John,
><evil grin>
>Do I get a commission?
></evil grin>
>
>
>Heh.......
>
>--
>Les Mizzell

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-29 by john duval

--- pstap <pstap@...> wrote:

> Good evening,
>
> Is this still available?
> NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX /
> UAP?
>
> I have $2100, via Bank of America, ready to send in
> the morning. Send an
> address to sen it to :)
>
> Rodney Stapivic
>
> Still avaliable...send the check to John DuVal PO

Box 1110 , Fairview Oregon 97024
Be sure to include your land address to i know
2where to send the goods
Kind regards
John DuVal

>
> At 12:19 AM 9/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >ADVERTISEMENT!
> >
> >The Serge sale of a couple months ago is back up
> and running. As before, I
> >will pay shipping. Payment is by cashiers check
> only preferably drawn on
> >Bank of America but any major bank will do.
> >
> >Here is a list of the goods:
> >
> >
> >TKB New $ 1400. Sell $1000.
> >
> >QTKB / ASR(2) / DTG / RS / SSG / PRO / DSG / ADSR
> >New $2975 Sell $2300.
> >
> >
> >NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD / VCFX
> / UAP
> >New $2725 Sell $2100
> >
> >ADSR/NCOM/ACPR/VC CLK/BLOG/SEQ7/
> >New $2180 Sell $1700
> >
> >QVM / XFAD / XFAD / MAX / QUO / QUO /
> >New $2275. Sell $1700.
> >
> >SPRC / PVCO / PVCO / PVCO / COM / VCM / XFAD / XFAD
> / XFAD /
> >MIX2
> >New$2490. Sell $1900.
> >
> >VCF2 / VCFS / VCFS / VCFS / VCFQX / VCFQX / VCFQX /
> EQ
> >New$2740 Sell $2100.
> >
> >CM / ENV2 / COM / COM / COM / PDIV / PDIV / VC CLK
> / ASR / ASR / SPRC /
> >CVM / ACPR / BUFF
> >New $3340 Sell $ 2400.
> >
> >All prices are firm.
> >
> >One more thing, all these are STS Oakland late
> 90's. I have a few
> >Wisconsin panels and there is
> >hardly any visual cosmetic difference so not to
> worry about asthetic
> >compatibility. So... for those of you who have
> posted me asking about the
> >sale, there it is.
> >
> >All panels are available. I consider a panel sold
> when someone posts me
> >and says "Where do I send the cash?". There are no
> discounts for the
> >purchase of multiple panels. I will NOT split the
> TKB from it's attendant
> >QTKB panel unless there is no other choice or I get
> down to my last box of
> >macaroni and
> >cheese.
> >
> >Kind regards
> >John DuVal
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >posted for John by:
> >Les Mizzell
> >-------------------------
> >"Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
> > Virent ova! Viret perna!
> > Dapem posthac non arcebo.
> > Gratum tibi me praebebo."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Re: John Duval has panels for sale

2003-09-29 by john duval

--- pstap <pstap@...> wrote:

> Wipe that smirk off your face ;)
>
>
> At 04:52 PM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>
> > > Is this still available?
> > > NTO / PCO / NCOM / PDIV / TWS / MIX2 / XFAD /
> VCFX / UAP?
> > >
> > > I have $2100, via Bank of America, ready to send
> in the morning. Send an
> > > address to sen it to :)
> >Hey John,
> ><evil grin>
> >Do I get a commission?
> ></evil grin>
> >
> >
> >Heh.......
> >
> >--
> >Les Mizzell
>
> HAhahha..... Les....was that really you?? or were

you just the go between???
John

>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

price increases

2003-10-11 by darkstr717

just now took a look at the new prices and i must say i'm
amazed. Rex said some time ago that he was going to do this.
Wow...this is some steep shit. I'm not sure how he figures
anyone can afford this stuff anymore. I've had a panel on order
for almost a year and it's for sure that it will be my last one.
Makes me want to re-think the prices on the panels i have for
sale, but what's done is done. I'm sure these increases will add
fuel to a lot of folks fire.
Kind regards
John

Re: price increases

2003-10-11 by Chris Whitten

> I'm sure these increases will add
> fuel to a lot of folks fire.

Or pour cold water on anyone's plans to add to their system.
Some of the modules don't seem too bad. $300 for an oscillator?, a few other
systems are as expensive. But I don't really think the TKB Sequencer is
worth $1,800.
CW

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by paradigmshiftbeats

What puzzles me the most... I'm having a difficult time following
the rationale for his pricing increases. They don't seem to follow
any set pattern, i.e. +25% across the board. In fact, some of the
variances seem to defy logic... why raise the price of a voltage-
controlled DCSM by just $90 (+23.4%) while bumping up the manual
MIX2 by $105 (+47.7%). And the sequencer-programmer increases are
unbelievable: an SQP4 goes from $525 to $825 - a whopping +57.1%!

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "darkstr717" <darkstr717@y...>
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> just now took a look at the new prices and i must say i'm
> amazed. Rex said some time ago that he was going to do this.
> Wow...this is some steep shit. I'm not sure how he figures
> anyone can afford this stuff anymore. I've had a panel on order
> for almost a year and it's for sure that it will be my last one.
> Makes me want to re-think the prices on the panels i have for
> sale, but what's done is done. I'm sure these increases will add
> fuel to a lot of folks fire.
> Kind regards
> John

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by john duval

--- Chris Whitten <cw.chris@...> wrote:

> > I'm sure these increases will add
> > fuel to a lot of folks fire.
> Or pour cold water on anyone's plans to add to
> their system.
> Some of the modules don't seem too bad. $300 for an
> oscillator?, a few other
> systems are as expensive. But I don't really think
> the TKB Sequencer is
> worth $1,800.
> CW
>
>

how about $525. for an NTO?..not in my life time. I'll
go for the MOTM Osc instead. and i agree.. a TKB isn't
worth 1800.
John

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Les Mizzell

paradigmshiftbeats wrote:

> What puzzles me the most... I'm having a difficult time following
> the rationale for his pricing increases. They don't seem to follow
> any set pattern, i.e. +25% across the board. In fact, some of the
> variances seem to defy logic... why raise the price of a voltage-
> controlled DCSM by just $90 (+23.4%) while bumping up the manual
> MIX2 by $105 (+47.7%). And the sequencer-programmer increases are
> unbelievable: an SQP4 goes from $525 to $825 - a whopping +57.1%!

.....and I made sure I wasn't making any typos when I typed them in too
- they're correct!!!

The one that floors me the most is the NTO. Sorry, I ain't paying over
$500 for an OSC - I don't care who designed it!

Well, OK, maybe if Buchla and Moog got together, and both of them
managed to squeeze all the features they wanted into it or something...

--
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
“Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
Virent ova! Viret perna!
Dapem posthac non arcebo.
Gratum tibi me praebebo.”

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Chris Whitten

You'd most likely have to pay over $1k for a Buchla Oscillator.
Funny thing is, the older Serge stuff goes DOWN in value.
CW

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Peter Grenader

And to think...the Serge was originally developed to be an inexpensive
option. OK, things change. Brittney Spears used to be this cute little
adolescent singer and we knew that wouldn't last and it didn't, but some of
these prices here are outrageous.

My questions: I've heard he isn't a computer person, but does Rex ever see
the letters on this list? Does he care what his customers think? I mean,
I've found some of these instruments to be overpriced even before the
increase, but this is the first time I've seen his real devotees stepping up
to that same line. If he can't depend on his customers to expand their
systems, how in the hell does he expect NEW ones to come on board when there
are much more affordable options for almost everything he produces?

I would say this would be a pretty serious problem. My suggestion is I
would wait and see what he does. If his orders slow to a crawl he's either
going to have address his price list or close shop. If he chooses to be
steadfast, if I were you guys I'd start looking closely into the
Modcan/Cynthia option. The patch system's identical, the voltage levels are
pretty much compatible, and the stuff sounds and behaves incredibly.

Les Mizzell wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> paradigmshiftbeats wrote:
>
>> What puzzles me the most... I'm having a difficult time following
>> the rationale for his pricing increases. They don't seem to follow
>> any set pattern, i.e. +25% across the board. In fact, some of the
>> variances seem to defy logic... why raise the price of a voltage-
>> controlled DCSM by just $90 (+23.4%) while bumping up the manual
>> MIX2 by $105 (+47.7%). And the sequencer-programmer increases are
>> unbelievable: an SQP4 goes from $525 to $825 - a whopping +57.1%!
>
>
> .....and I made sure I wasn't making any typos when I typed them in too
> - they're correct!!!
>
> The one that floors me the most is the NTO. Sorry, I ain't paying over
> $500 for an OSC - I don't care who designed it!
>
> Well, OK, maybe if Buchla and Moog got together, and both of them
> managed to squeeze all the features they wanted into it or something...

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Chris Whitten

My impression was Rex was trying to discourage business. I guess this is the
ultimate solution.
IMHO, The Serge system could have been a much more vital force in popular
music. Look at the rise of MOTM!
CW

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Peter Grenader

Chris Whitten wrote:

> You'd most likely have to pay over $1k for a Buchla Oscillator.

Actually, you'd be spending more than that...but it's not a fair comparison
as the Buchla gear hasn't been produced in 25 years and reflects collector's
inflation. The best guess I've heard (from Don himself) is that there were
only 400 some odd series 200 modules ever produced. Hell, a kit for a 259
(which consists of only the bare PCBs and a faceplate) if you can find one
goes for $900!!

But let's just pretend the 258's were still being made. The uA726 alone,
which each Buchla 258 has two of, go for anywhere up to $75 each! By
comparison, a CA3046 which Serge used for his expo converter on the NTO/PCO
VCOs are currently listed at Mouser for $5.

Outside of banana jacks, let's not draw comparisons between Buchla anything
and Serge. They do not reflect the same level of design depth by a long
shot. Nobody's gizmos were as complex as Buchla's - not a one.

.

> CW
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Joe Pavone

I'll add my name to the list of serge owners who will not be ordering
any new panels at these prices and will probably continue to sell the
panels that I can and replace with Modcan/Cythia. Shame.....

...jp

Peter Grenader wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>And to think...the Serge was originally developed to be an inexpensive
>option. OK, things change. Brittney Spears used to be this cute little
>adolescent singer and we knew that wouldn't last and it didn't, but some of
>these prices here are outrageous.
>
>My questions: I've heard he isn't a computer person, but does Rex ever see
>the letters on this list? Does he care what his customers think? I mean,
>I've found some of these instruments to be overpriced even before the
>increase, but this is the first time I've seen his real devotees stepping up
>to that same line. If he can't depend on his customers to expand their
>systems, how in the hell does he expect NEW ones to come on board when there
>are much more affordable options for almost everything he produces?
>
>I would say this would be a pretty serious problem. My suggestion is I
>would wait and see what he does. If his orders slow to a crawl he's either
>going to have address his price list or close shop. If he chooses to be
>steadfast, if I were you guys I'd start looking closely into the
>Modcan/Cynthia option. The patch system's identical, the voltage levels are
>pretty much compatible, and the stuff sounds and behaves incredibly.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Les Mizzell wrote:
>
>
>
>>paradigmshiftbeats wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>What puzzles me the most... I'm having a difficult time following
>>>the rationale for his pricing increases. They don't seem to follow
>>>any set pattern, i.e. +25% across the board. In fact, some of the
>>>variances seem to defy logic... why raise the price of a voltage-
>>>controlled DCSM by just $90 (+23.4%) while bumping up the manual
>>>MIX2 by $105 (+47.7%). And the sequencer-programmer increases are
>>>unbelievable: an SQP4 goes from $525 to $825 - a whopping +57.1%!
>>>
>>>
>>.....and I made sure I wasn't making any typos when I typed them in too
>>- they're correct!!!
>>
>>The one that floors me the most is the NTO. Sorry, I ain't paying over
>>$500 for an OSC - I don't care who designed it!
>>
>>Well, OK, maybe if Buchla and Moog got together, and both of them
>>managed to squeeze all the features they wanted into it or something...
>>
>>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by James R. Coplin

> My questions: I've heard he isn't a computer person, but does Rex ever

see

> the letters on this list? Does he care what his customers think?

He does care but most of his business is not from people on this list.
Most of his business is from well moneyed pros / superstar types or
large studios for who the standard economics really don't much apply.
Rex has realized that this group of individuals, small though it may be,
is what drives the lion share of his business and is what has sustained
STS over the long term and has chosen to focus on that. It does suck for
the rest of us but what can you do besides stop purchasing. Not that he
would care. Most of us are just not his core clientele and there isn't
some god given right for us to have Serge for cheap/reasonable. I would
really like to have a custom built Italian sports car but they are a bit
out of my price range. How is this or any other luxury good different?

> to that same line. If he can't depend on his customers to expand

their

> systems, how in the hell does he expect NEW ones to come on board when
> there
> are much more affordable options for almost everything he produces?

My impression for several conversation with Rex is that he feels that
this is not really a growth market and nearly everyone who wants a large
modular *and* is in a position to afford one, has one. If you meet both
of these criteria the price rise is inconvenient but probably not a
killer. Granted, it does leave me out in the cold as I don't see how
I'll ever be able to afford another panel after I get my current (6th)
panel from him that I have on order.

> I would say this would be a pretty serious problem. My suggestion is

I

> would wait and see what he does. If his orders slow to a crawl he's
> either
> going to have address his price list or close shop.

There is an unnamed artist who basically purchased his whole capacity
for the next 12+ months and this is not an unusual situation for him I
believe. I would be shocked, even more shocked than I was by the price
hike, if he changes his mind on the price rise.

> If he chooses to be
> steadfast, if I were you guys I'd start looking closely into the
> Modcan/Cynthia option. The patch system's identical, the voltage

levels

> are
> pretty much compatible, and the stuff sounds and behaves incredibly.

That's pretty much where I'm at. My 6 panels are a nice well rounded
system, I was hoping for 8 total by adding another voicing panel and
another cv / cv processing panel but the current pricing makes this
unlikely at best. While the Modcan stuff looks good and has an ever
growing line, I wish it had a little more umphh in the unusual
department. Most of his modules strike me as fairly vanilla ala old Arp
/ Moog stuff with banana jacks for crazy patching. I just wish it had
more like the SSG, USG, etc. That being said, it is what I'm looking
into for my next setup.

James R. Coplin

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by John Loffink

Ah, so it's all Hans Zimmer's fault! :-)

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> There is an unnamed artist who basically purchased his whole capacity
> for the next 12+ months and this is not an unusual situation for him I
> believe. I would be shocked, even more shocked than I was by the price
> hike, if he changes his mind on the price rise.
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by kirkdegiorgio

My 6 panels are a nice well rounded

> system, I was hoping for 8 total by adding another voicing panel and
> another cv / cv processing panel but the current pricing makes this
> unlikely at best. While the Modcan stuff looks good and has an ever
> growing line, I wish it had a little more umphh in the unusual
> department. Most of his modules strike me as fairly vanilla ala old

Arp

> / Moog stuff with banana jacks for crazy patching. I just wish it

had

> more like the SSG, USG, etc. That being said, it is what I'm looking
> into for my next setup.

interesting... I guess you're saying Serge is now strictly a 'money
no object' purchase - for megarich studios/artists and Rex no longer
cares much for building the odd panel for 'regular' customers...

Personally I'd like to think this is not the reason for the price
rise. I always get the impression when speaking to Rex that he likes
to do some other stuff in life rather than build panels all the time.
Hence I agree with Chris W's statement that he's simply trying to
discourage any kind of business.

No matter how rich I may or not be I don't see myself buying panels
at these prices... same reason I wouldn't order any Moog CE modules..
they are just way overpriced...

I've come to the same conclusion as you: my 4 panel system is pretty
well-rounded too... infact I was thinking of selling the TKB and
another panel and replacing them with just 1 new panel combining the
modules I use most with a smaller stage Seq/Programmer as I don't
need the 16 stages or touchpads of the TKB... not now though!

I'll probably be expanding my MOTM system and most likely purchasing
some of the weirder Modcan/Cynthia modules too. (There is a lot of
vanilla Modcan but the Super Delay/Flanger/Freq Shift/6x2 Mixer all
look fairly desirable and the range of filter types on offer is
superb for 1 system)

The only upside to this for existing Serge owners is the prices of
used STS era Serge panels will surely increase...

KD

Re: price increases

2003-10-12 by Les Mizzell

> I'll probably be expanding my MOTM system and most likely purchasing
> some of the weirder Modcan/Cynthia modules too. (There is a lot of
> vanilla Modcan but the Super Delay/Flanger/Freq Shift/6x2 Mixer all
> look fairly desirable and the range of filter types on offer is
> superb for 1 system)

Wait!!!!!! Cause I *know*!!

Some supreme coolness is on the way!

I just can't say or the men with violin cases show up and break my
kneecaps!

--
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
“Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
Virent ova! Viret perna!
Dapem posthac non arcebo.
Gratum tibi me praebebo.”

Re: price increases

2003-10-13 by Chris Whitten

> Most of his business is from well moneyed pros / superstar types or
> large studios for who the standard economics really don't much apply.

So I guess that's why so many were listed recently in the thread about Serge
systems used on commercial releases.
I have yet to visit a top studio or work with anybody who's even heard of
Serge. I am professional and DO work with other professionals btw.
Yes, there are a few well known people who own Serge, but I really can't
relate to your statement about 'moneyed superstars', although I don't
disbelieve the evidence that one of them has bought up a years worth of
panels.
With regards to it being a shrinking market, ask Paul Schreiber (MOTM) and
Bob Williams (Analogue Systems). They are both selling as many modules as
they can make.......more judging by the waiting lists.
CW

Re: price increases

2003-10-13 by Fernando

I think prices where too high before.
Serge synth began as a workshop, so Serge, his students and
other composers would be able to teach, experiment and make
music, since the Buchla was very difficult -well almost
imposible- to book.
I think selling the serge synth at such prices is contrary to it's
initial spirit. This same spirit in wich serge designed such a
versatile, open, yet simple and clever modular instrument. And
best, it was sold as a kit most of times...
And, I think the serge synth is using more or less the same old
designs, so why it's more expensive now than before? It's crazy.

Well, that's just the opinion of an electroacoustic music
composer from Spain.

Fernando

Re: price increases

2003-10-13 by (i think you can figure that out)

An excellent option would be the Blacet VCO. GREAT VCOs, btw.
You should seriously consider these. And less than half the cost
of the NTO!

- Peter

"kirkdegiorgio" <kirk.degiorgio@b...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> My 6 panels are a nice well rounded
> > system, I was hoping for 8 total by adding another voicing

panel and

> > another cv / cv processing panel but the current pricing

makes this

> > unlikely at best. While the Modcan stuff looks good and has

an ever

> > growing line, I wish it had a little more umphh in the unusual
> > department. Most of his modules strike me as fairly vanilla

ala old

> Arp
> > / Moog stuff with banana jacks for crazy patching. I just wish it
> had
> > more like the SSG, USG, etc. That being said, it is what I'm

looking

> > into for my next setup.
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-13 by john duval

--
Once again Les you are making my mouth water with
anticipation. What's on the front burner??... any
hints?? hahaha
John Duval

Les Mizzell <lesmizz@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> > I'll probably be expanding my MOTM system and most
> likely purchasing
> > some of the weirder Modcan/Cynthia modules too.
> (There is a lot of
> > vanilla Modcan but the Super Delay/Flanger/Freq
> Shift/6x2 Mixer all
> > look fairly desirable and the range of filter
> types on offer is
> > superb for 1 system)
>
>
> Wait!!!!!! Cause I *know*!!
>
> Some supreme coolness is on the way!
>
> I just can't say or the men with violin cases show
> up and break my
> kneecaps!
>
>
> --
> Les Mizzell
> -------------------------
> �Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
> Virent ova! Viret perna!
> Dapem posthac non arcebo.
> Gratum tibi me praebebo.�
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Re: price increases

2003-10-13 by r

wow. if these are the new prices people are getting I'd love to sell
my system for the OLD prices! tkb/bv/soup/cv1 (all shops) 11,000k!
(what i payed)come get it! LIKE NEU/ / / / / /

heh./

Re: price increases

2003-10-13 by r

> but does Rex ever see the letters on this list

Ov korse!

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by S V G

Rex and Serge are two entirely different people. Yes, the spirit of Serge Modular is no
longer present at STS, this is inevitable. It sounds to me as though the instrument which was
once made for the domain of the poor musician is now being made for the domain of the university
and the individual who can afford such prices. I had hoped to one day replace the system that I
sold a few decades ago, now I don't see that ever happening. C'est la vie.

Serge was (is) one of the most down-to-earth people I've ever had the joy to meet or work
with. A man of great caring, concern, and compassion. His instruments seemed to me to carry
those qualities into them and the music that issued forth was informed by his spirit. Nowadays
things are different. Serge needed to move on and Rex came and took over. It would have been
easy for the whole operation to simply fold. I'm glad that Rex has found a niche where he can
exist, even though this doesn't bode well for those of us who were interested in future purchases.
My sense is that the quality of this synth has only gone up in the years that Rex has had his
hands on it. More power to him. Also, the spirit of the instrument has shifted to match Rex's
spirit.

The 60's and 70's were unique times. We will never recreate them no matter how hard we try.
So in this sense, the Serge synthesizer has already passed on. While I appreciate the system as a
whole (which includes the low prices and "kits", as well as the versitile patching layout), I have
little faith that anything like this will come about in the next few decades. Music is dictated
by economics, now more than ever. Time to move on.

Stephen

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> I think prices where too high before.
> Serge synth began as a workshop, so Serge, his students and
> other composers would be able to teach, experiment and make
> music, since The Buchla was very difficult -well almost
> imposible- to book.
> I think selling the serge synth at such prices is contrary to it's
> initial spirit. This same spirit in wich serge designed such a
> versatile, open, yet simple and clever modular instrument. And
> best, it was sold as a kit most of times...
> And, I think the serge synth is using more or less the same old
> designs, so why it's more expensive now than before? It's crazy.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by Bill Sequeira

A few thoughts prompted by the excellent comments issued by Stephen.

STS has taken Serge to a completely different engineering and manufacturing
level from the systems manufactured in the '70s and '80s - anyone with
panels from those decades can immediately tell the difference.

Arguably, Doepfer and synthesizers.com are the low-cost modular
providers today - they embody, to a degree, the same spirit introduced by
Serge, when the Moogs and Buchlas where out of reach for the average
musician. Yet there is a superiority attitude by modular owners depending
on which side of the line they find themselves on.

Serge as a system has matured during the last 15 years, thanks to STS'
effort, going from an excellent design with subpar execution to an
excellent system all around. Serge as a system has grown up.

Prices more often than not reflect the maturity of a system and the overall
demand for it. If there is little demand, then the cost of parts and labor
will go up as the product/company drift back into a true cottage industry.

Demand does not necessarily imply that someone is making money, it just
means that what can be produced is being consumed - makes no statement
re: the survivability or profitability of an operation.

Arguably, price does have something to do with such ebb and flow - from a
business perspective, the analog modular industry is NOT within economies
of scale. And then there are the issues of recuperating investment in
R&D, manufacturing process, parts management, training of technicians, and
cash flow of a business. It is not just parts.

Lastly, STS will make the business decisions necessary to ensure its
survival. If they are wrong, the marketplace will provide the ultimate
feedback.

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
Principal, Axon Hillock

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: S V G <vsyevolod@...>
> Reply-To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SergeModular] Re: price increases
>
>
> Rex and Serge are two entirely different people. Yes, the spirit of Serge
> Modular is no
> longer present at STS, this is inevitable. It sounds to me as though the
> instrument which was
> once made for the domain of the poor musician is now being made for the domain
> of the university
> and the individual who can afford such prices. I had hoped to one day replace
> the system that I
> sold a few decades ago, now I don't see that ever happening. C'est la vie.
>
> Serge was (is) one of the most down-to-earth people I've ever had the joy to
> meet or work
> with. A man of great caring, concern, and compassion. His instruments seemed
> to me to carry
> those qualities into them and the music that issued forth was informed by his
> spirit. Nowadays
> things are different. Serge needed to move on and Rex came and took over. It
> would have been
> easy for the whole operation to simply fold. I'm glad that Rex has found a
> niche where he can
> exist, even though this doesn't bode well for those of us who were interested
> in future purchases.
> My sense is that the quality of this synth has only gone up in the years that
> Rex has had his
> hands on it. More power to him. Also, the spirit of the instrument has
> shifted to match Rex's
> spirit.
>
> The 60's and 70's were unique times. We will never recreate them no matter
> how hard we try.
> So in this sense, the Serge synthesizer has already passed on. While I
> appreciate the system as a
> whole (which includes the low prices and "kits", as well as the versitile
> patching layout), I have
> little faith that anything like this will come about in the next few decades.
> Music is dictated
> by economics, now more than ever. Time to move on.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
>> I think prices where too high before.
>> Serge synth began as a workshop, so Serge, his students and
>> other composers would be able to teach, experiment and make
>> music, since The Buchla was very difficult -well almost
>> imposible- to book.
>> I think selling the serge synth at such prices is contrary to it's
>> initial spirit. This same spirit in wich serge designed such a
>> versatile, open, yet simple and clever modular instrument. And
>> best, it was sold as a kit most of times...
>> And, I think the serge synth is using more or less the same old
>> designs, so why it's more expensive now than before? It's crazy.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by Chris Whitten

Bill,
Reasonable points, although I have a couple of retorts.....
You're saying that demand is low, so prices have to be higher. Yesterday
someone said demand was extremely high (a years worth of panels spoken for
etc), therefore Rex can charge what he wants. It's either one or the
other......or maybe neither.
Also, although you point out that STS are making better quality Serge
Systems, I think people are comparing Rex's price increases to equally well
made systems like MOTM, Wiard and Modcan.
CW

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by Peter Grenader

Not trying to start a flame war, but while I wholeheartedly agree that STS
has greatly improved the exterior cosmetics, this alone being enough of an
undertaking to warrant praise, the changes under the hood are not as evident
from the old days and I take that from my own recent experience of recent;y
repairing a system from the 70s, oner from the 80s fitted with the elusive
Gentle Electric Pitch to Voltage converter and one from the late 90s.

This is not to say that the current new/old engineering methods are not
acceptable - the fact that there are hundreds out there still in operation
and functional from that period being proof of this. But I must tell you,
on the modules I repaired (VCOs, slews, random) systems from these two
periods are much more similar than they are different from each another.

I have heard however that Rex is up to a major redesign of the PCB art and
this I would say would constitute a major upgrade internally and would not
only afford a better system for the supply voltage distribution than daisy
changing, but would easily allow for automated assembly, as the PCB gerber
data integrates with modern day component stuffing machines.

Again, I don't want to start a war here. Everyone is due their opinion, and
this is mine. The new systems are just beautiful - probably the best
looking currently manufactured by anyone and the sound still rings true of
tradition in which the Serge system was founded.

Peter

Bill Sequeira wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> STS has taken Serge to a completely different engineering and manufacturing
> level from the systems manufactured in the '70s and '80s - anyone with
> panels from those decades can immediately tell the difference.

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by Bill Sequeira

My aim was to provide a few more data points for everyone to consider,
rather than take a position.

I have had to deal with internal power distribution issues in pre-STS
panels, a difficult problem to troubleshoot at best. However, my new
panels have been rock solid and much improved over the former.

Saying that only cosmetics have been improved is an oversimplification
of the maturation process of the system.

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
Principal, Axon Hillock

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: Peter Grenader <peter@...>
> Reply-To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:39:24 -0700
> To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [SergeModular] Re: price increases
>
> Not trying to start a flame war, but while I wholeheartedly agree that STS
> has greatly improved the exterior cosmetics, this alone being enough of an
> undertaking to warrant praise, the changes under the hood are not as evident
> from the old days and I take that from my own recent experience of recent;y
> repairing a system from the 70s, oner from the 80s fitted with the elusive
> Gentle Electric Pitch to Voltage converter and one from the late 90s.
>
> This is not to say that the current new/old engineering methods are not
> acceptable - the fact that there are hundreds out there still in operation
> and functional from that period being proof of this. But I must tell you,
> on the modules I repaired (VCOs, slews, random) systems from these two
> periods are much more similar than they are different from each another.
>
> I have heard however that Rex is up to a major redesign of the PCB art and
> this I would say would constitute a major upgrade internally and would not
> only afford a better system for the supply voltage distribution than daisy
> changing, but would easily allow for automated assembly, as the PCB gerber
> data integrates with modern day component stuffing machines.
>
> Again, I don't want to start a war here. Everyone is due their opinion, and
> this is mine. The new systems are just beautiful - probably the best
> looking currently manufactured by anyone and the sound still rings true of
> tradition in which the Serge system was founded.
>
> Peter
>
>
> Bill Sequeira wrote:
>
>> STS has taken Serge to a completely different engineering and manufacturing
>> level from the systems manufactured in the '70s and '80s - anyone with
>> panels from those decades can immediately tell the difference.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by Peter Grenader

One, I really appreciated what Stephen wrote here. Well done - good form.

<<It sounds to me as though the instrument which was once made for the
domain of the poor musician is now being made for the domain of the
university and the individual who can afford such prices.>>

More the second than the first, as outside of support devices such as midi
interfaces, digital audio systems and the like, universities aren't
investing dime one on hardware of any type. I can see their point, as
software alternatives don't require the massive budgets these systems
dictate and what expenses are incurred have been reallocated to the student
(they buy the software for their own computer).

Some universities still have their halcyon analog boxes and while it seems
they are now all aware of their value ($$) , few of them are being used.
Most analog synthesis instruction is done with Reaktor and 99.9% of the
advanced teaching and composition on either MAX MSP or Csound.

So not only are these machines not being used that much for music
production, the days of acquiring a large Buchla 200 for a song which has
spent the last two decades in a college broom closet are gone, too....

THATS the saddest part!

Re: price increases (get USED to it)

2003-10-14 by John Papiewski

On the one hand, I'm not much of a gearhound - my system is small and
while I think about adding a thing now & then it hasn't been in the
cards for a while.

Rex has done nothing less than a heroic job of not breaking what's good
and polishing what needs polish. He deserves to make a decent living at
it for however long he keeps doing it. I think the price increase
reflects trying to keep all the good things going & also give himself a
few comforts. But the increase - arrgh!

So it looks like the used market for me. Or try out the Modcan/Cynthia
stuff.

Peter Grenader wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Not trying to start a flame war, but while I wholeheartedly agree that STS
> has greatly improved the exterior cosmetics, this alone being enough of an
> undertaking to warrant praise, the changes under the hood are not as evident
> from the old days and I take that from my own recent experience of recent;y
> repairing a system from the 70s, oner from the 80s fitted with the elusive
> Gentle Electric Pitch to Voltage converter and one from the late 90s.
>
> This is not to say that the current new/old engineering methods are not
> acceptable - the fact that there are hundreds out there still in operation
> and functional from that period being proof of this. But I must tell you,
> on the modules I repaired (VCOs, slews, random) systems from these two
> periods are much more similar than they are different from each another.
>
> I have heard however that Rex is up to a major redesign of the PCB art and
> this I would say would constitute a major upgrade internally and would not
> only afford a better system for the supply voltage distribution than daisy
> changing, but would easily allow for automated assembly, as the PCB gerber
> data integrates with modern day component stuffing machines.
>
> Again, I don't want to start a war here. Everyone is due their opinion, and
> this is mine. The new systems are just beautiful - probably the best
> looking currently manufactured by anyone and the sound still rings true of
> tradition in which the Serge system was founded.
>
> Peter
>
>
> Bill Sequeira wrote:
>
>
>>STS has taken Serge to a completely different engineering and manufacturing
>>level from the systems manufactured in the '70s and '80s - anyone with
>>panels from those decades can immediately tell the difference.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by Bill Sequeira

Chris,

Good points - although I would take the opinions stated in this list as
the viewpoints of individuals as opposed to factual information. So it
could easily be neither.

Comparisons to other systems is warranted, as price points, wallets and
subjective values will determine someone's idea of "best". All in all,
modulars are not a cheap hobby. :-) But yes, competition determines
the survival of the fittest. My aim was to provide a larger sense of
perspective rather than a justification.

Ultimately it boils down to your music and your instruments, and sometimes
the musical aspect of the equation gets forgotten in the technical nuances
of the process.

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
Principal, Axon Hillock

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: Chris Whitten <cw.chris@...>
> Reply-To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:47:40 +0100
> To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [SergeModular] Re: price increases
>
> Bill,
> Reasonable points, although I have a couple of retorts.....
> You're saying that demand is low, so prices have to be higher. Yesterday
> someone said demand was extremely high (a years worth of panels spoken for
> etc), therefore Rex can charge what he wants. It's either one or the
> other......or maybe neither.
> Also, although you point out that STS are making better quality Serge
> Systems, I think people are comparing Rex's price increases to equally well
> made systems like MOTM, Wiard and Modcan.
> CW
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by john duval

--- r <datacult@...> wrote:

> > but does Rex ever see the letters on this list
>
>
> Ov korse!
>
> yes he does.. maybe not directly but some one is

monitoring this list for him. I was in the middle of a
post yesterday when he called me and we had a lengthy
discussion about the increases which even included the
issues involved surrounding the grounding conductivity
of aluminum chassis vs. steel... over my head of
course...hahah
Kind regards
John DuVal

>
>
>

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Re: price increases

2003-10-14 by john duval

--- S V G <vsyevolod@...> wrote:
the nail has been hit on the head...thanks steve
John

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> My sense is that the quality of this synth has only
> gone up in the years that Rex has had his
> hands on it. More power to him. Also, the spirit
> of the instrument has shifted to match Rex's
> spirit.
>
> The 60's and 70's were unique times. We will
> never recreate them no matter how hard we try.
> So in this sense, the Serge synthesizer has already
> passed on. While I appreciate the system as a
> whole (which includes the low prices and "kits", as
> well as the versitile patching layout), I have
> little faith that anything like this will come about
> in the next few decades. Music is dictated
> by economics, now more than ever. Time to move on.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
> > I think prices where too high before.
> > Serge synth began as a workshop, so Serge, his
> students and
> > other composers would be able to teach, experiment
> and make
> > music, since The Buchla was very difficult -well
> almost
> > imposible- to book.
> > I think selling the serge synth at such prices is
> contrary to it's
> > initial spirit. This same spirit in wich serge
> designed such a
> > versatile, open, yet simple and clever modular
> instrument. And
> > best, it was sold as a kit most of times...
> > And, I think the serge synth is using more or less
> the same old
> > designs, so why it's more expensive now than
> before? It's crazy.
>
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