QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi,
I am trying to get some glop (epsonGO) to print through QTR. I'm running QTRv2.6.2 on Mac 10.5.7. printing with an Epson R1900. The inkset is UT3D parts, too long of a story :( . I have a good warm curve, LC and C mixed in the toner section, LK and PK mixed in the gray. And I have a good cool curve, LM and M in the toner with LK and PK in the gray. I combine these in the QTRprint dialog curve mix and love the results so far... 
Is there some code line or something added in the quad curve creation that will pour on the glop without trying to undercut the inks?

Thanks in advance, SteveO

pretend it's a toner... make sense?
Tyler

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "steveoshoots" <steveoconnell@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> I am trying to get some glop (epsonGO) to print through QTR. I'm running QTRv2.6.2 on Mac 10.5.7. printing with an Epson R1900. The inkset is UT3D parts, too long of a story :( . I have a good warm curve, LC and C mixed in the toner section, LK and PK mixed in the gray. And I have a good cool curve, LM and M in the toner with LK and PK in the gray. I combine these in the QTRprint dialog curve mix and love the results so far... 
> Is there some code line or something added in the quad curve creation that will pour on the glop without trying to undercut the inks?
> 
> Thanks in advance, SteveO
>

That does make sense. How do I add it without compromising the LC,C or LM,M already in the toner part of the curve?

> pretend it's a toner... make sense?
> Tyler
> 

> >
> > Hi,
> > I am trying to get some glop (epsonGO) to print through QTR. I'm running QTRv2.6.2 on Mac 10.5.7. printing with an Epson R1900. The inkset is UT3D parts, too long of a story :( . I have a good warm curve, LC and C mixed in the toner section, LK and PK mixed in the gray. And I have a good cool curve, LM and M in the toner with LK and PK in the gray. I combine these in the QTRprint dialog curve mix and love the results so far... 
> > Is there some code line or something added in the quad curve creation that will pour on the glop without trying to undercut the inks?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance, SteveO
> >
>

my apologies for jumping in without reading your post more carefully. So you have used up your 2 potential toner channels with the Various C and M inks then?
I guess the only way to accomplish what you are now doing is with a few curves each using just one toner channel, and blending in QTR when printing to get the hues you have now.
Then you'd still have an available toner channel in each curve to add glop.
Tyler


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "steveoshoots" <steveoconnell@...> wrote:

>
> That does make sense. How do I add it without compromising the LC,C or LM,M already in the toner part of the curve?
> 
> > pretend it's a toner... make sense?
> > Tyler
> > 
> 
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I am trying to get some glop (epsonGO) to print through QTR. I'm running QTRv2.6.2 on Mac 10.5.7. printing with an Epson R1900. The inkset is UT3D parts, too long of a story :( . I have a good warm curve, LC and C mixed in the toner section, LK and PK mixed in the gray. And I have a good cool curve, LM and M in the toner with LK and PK in the gray. I combine these in the QTRprint dialog curve mix and love the results so far... 
> > > Is there some code line or something added in the quad curve creation that will pour on the glop without trying to undercut the inks?
> > > 
> > > Thanks in advance, SteveO
> > >
> >
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "steveoshoots" <steveoconnell@...> wrote:

> I am trying to get some glop (epsonGO) to print through QTR. I'm running QTRv2.6.2 on Mac 10.5.7. printing with an Epson R1900. The inkset is UT3D parts, too long of a story :( . I have a good warm curve, LC and C mixed in the toner section, LK and PK mixed in the gray. And I have a good cool curve, LM and M in the toner with LK and PK in the gray. I combine these in the QTRprint dialog curve mix and love the results so far... 
> Is there some code line or something added in the quad curve creation that will pour on the glop without trying to undercut the inks?

Hello Steve, here is a method that will work with OS X and the GLOP (or any other channel).  After the toner lines add the line:

CURVE_GL=

There are now two ways to define the curve. 

1) insert points in the following format:  <open quote><input @ white point><semi-colon><channel output><single space><next input><semi-colon><output><single space> etc., etc., <then close with triple end quotes>

CURVE_GL="0;80 5;29 9;17 21;8 33;5 100;0"""

will add a curve that puts out 80% of the defined channel at the white end, drops dramatically  as the gray inks come in, then tapers off to "0" at the black end.  (I use this curve to add Glop heavily in the highlights then taper off to no glop at the black end.)  A curve of: "0;100 100;100""" would add full channel output from white to black.

2) the second method is to go into PS and define an ACV grayscale curve, then drag and drop that curve's location on your computer after the equal sign.

CURVE_GL=/Users/RPB/Desktop/1800-ACVs/GLOP2.acv

Above defines the curve as the ACV file named GLOP2 that resides in a folder named 1800-ACVs that is on my desktop.

You can create the ACV file by going to PS>File>New (here you must make sure that the color mode is Grayscale, nothing else matters except the bit mode you want the curve to be in)>OK>Layer>New Adjustment Layer>Curves>OK (here you want to be in Pigment/ink % mode, make sure Channel indicates Gray)  Now define your curve and then Save Preset.  You must now define the location to save the ACV file with its given name.  You can then define that path after the = sign in the Curve_GL= line or with Finder and QTR you can drag and drop the path after the = sign.

Now process the text file as you would normally to create the curve.

There is one more caveat when using GLOP.  QTR will not print any channel onto an image that measures 255 (pure white) as QTR normally leaves pure (255) white as Paper White.  Here you must add a Levels Layer that converts white 255 to white 254 in your image before printing.

To your image add an Adjustment Layer by going to Layers>New Adjustment Layer>Levels>OK (Here change the 255 output to 254) >OK.  You will, of course, need to add this layer to every image you want to print with this curve.

Since you are printing out of QTR with multiple curves I would add the full amount of Glop you want to each curve then let QTR assign percentages in the Curve Mixing.

The above is an amalgam of information coming from Paul Roark's website for some Curve definition info and the necessity to change the 255 output to 254 and from articles on Ron Reeder's website as they relate to dragging and dropping path's to define Curve's with ACV files.

Good luck!

Thanks Robert! I will have to wait til I get home this evening to try it. Big thanks for the numbers in the curve as well.
SteveO

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "steveoshoots" <steveoconnell@> wrote:
> 
> > I am trying to get some glop (epsonGO) to print through QTR. I'm running QTRv2.6.2 on Mac 10.5.7. printing with an Epson R1900. The inkset is UT3D parts, too long of a story :( . I have a good warm curve, LC and C mixed in the toner section, LK and PK mixed in the gray. And I have a good cool curve, LM and M in the toner with LK and PK in the gray. I combine these in the QTRprint dialog curve mix and love the results so far... 
> > Is there some code line or something added in the quad curve creation that will pour on the glop without trying to undercut the inks?
> 
> Hello Steve, here is a method that will work with OS X and the GLOP (or any other channel).  After the toner lines add the line:
> 
> CURVE_GL=
> 
> There are now two ways to define the curve. 
> 
> 1) insert points in the following format:  <open quote><input @ white point><semi-colon><channel output><single space><next input><semi-colon><output><single space> etc., etc., <then close with triple end quotes>
> 
> CURVE_GL="0;80 5;29 9;17 21;8 33;5 100;0"""
> 
> will add a curve that puts out 80% of the defined channel at the white end, drops dramatically  as the gray inks come in, then tapers off to "0" at the black end.  (I use this curve to add Glop heavily in the highlights then taper off to no glop at the black end.)  A curve of: "0;100 100;100""" would add full channel output from white to black.
> 
> 2) the second method is to go into PS and define an ACV grayscale curve, then drag and drop that curve's location on your computer after the equal sign.
> 
> CURVE_GL=/Users/RPB/Desktop/1800-ACVs/GLOP2.acv
> 
> Above defines the curve as the ACV file named GLOP2 that resides in a folder named 1800-ACVs that is on my desktop.
> 
> You can create the ACV file by going to PS>File>New (here you must make sure that the color mode is Grayscale, nothing else matters except the bit mode you want the curve to be in)>OK>Layer>New Adjustment Layer>Curves>OK (here you want to be in Pigment/ink % mode, make sure Channel indicates Gray)  Now define your curve and then Save Preset.  You must now define the location to save the ACV file with its given name.  You can then define that path after the = sign in the Curve_GL= line or with Finder and QTR you can drag and drop the path after the = sign.
> 
> Now process the text file as you would normally to create the curve.
> 
> There is one more caveat when using GLOP.  QTR will not print any channel onto an image that measures 255 (pure white) as QTR normally leaves pure (255) white as Paper White.  Here you must add a Levels Layer that converts white 255 to white 254 in your image before printing.
> 
> To your image add an Adjustment Layer by going to Layers>New Adjustment Layer>Levels>OK (Here change the 255 output to 254) >OK.  You will, of course, need to add this layer to every image you want to print with this curve.
> 
> Since you are printing out of QTR with multiple curves I would add the full amount of Glop you want to each curve then let QTR assign percentages in the Curve Mixing.
> 
> The above is an amalgam of information coming from Paul Roark's website for some Curve definition info and the necessity to change the 255 output to 254 and from articles on Ron Reeder's website as they relate to dragging and dropping path's to define Curve's with ACV files.
> 
> Good luck!
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "steveoshoots" <steveoconnell@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Robert! I will have to wait til I get home this evening to try it. Big thanks for the numbers in the curve as well.

The curves will vary from paper to paper with higher gloss papers needing more Glop at the beginning.  The curve I used in the example was from one of the F type papers and I think I eventually increased the white end as well. How much Glop you will need over the gray/black areas will depend on the inkset.  I find it easiest to print a piece of a test image with a specular  highlight as that seems to show the gloss differential quite readily.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" ...
...
> CURVE_GL=
> 

I'm behind on this one, sorry for wasting posts, hopefully not too much of SteveO's time...
I had no idea a GL channel in addition to the 2 toners was available...
Tyler

I'm reading this with great interest, not having made any gloss curves yet but planning to do so.

I would assume that an even simpler way to add a GLOP curve using the QTRgui Curve Creator. 
- Select "load curve" (iso "gray" or "toner") for GLOP channel
- Press the "curve" button
- press the "point list" button
- add the curve points

Joost

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> I'm reading this with great interest, not having made any gloss curves yet but planning to do so.
> 
> I would assume that an even simpler way to add a GLOP curve using the QTRgui Curve Creator. 
> - Select "load curve" (iso "gray" or "toner") for GLOP channel
> - Press the "curve" button
> - press the "point list" button
> - add the curve points

Hello Joost,  I'm really not up on the differences in OS X QTR and QTR GUI but with the OS X text entry method the Curve_X= line doesn't appear to influence the other ink channels or linearization making it ideal for a GLOP channel.  I don't know how that will work in QTR GUI but I guess a quick Curve View would tell the tale.  With OS X you can open the quad files and confirm if the GLOP channel has influenced the other inks or not.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> I had no idea a GL channel in addition to the 2 toners was available...

There seem to be a bunch of old techniques in QTR that are still floating around and working but have been superseded in function by later versions of QTR.  I was also working with the UT_3D inkset over the winter and its' use of two grays to make a black present a lot of unusual demands on the current version of QTR.  The current QTR seems to be tailored more for ease of use with an inkset with linear progressions in density. In Ron Reeder's use of QTR for digital negatives, which don't always seem to follow the needs of positive prints, I have found many usefull things that can be used in QTR, as well as in some of Paul Roark's methods used in his 3MK approach.  Just more of the wonder that is QTR.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
> 
> Hello Joost,  I'm really not up on the differences in OS X QTR and QTR GUI but with the OS X text entry method the Curve_X= line doesn't appear to influence the other ink channels or linearization making it ideal for a GLOP channel.  I don't know how that will work in QTR GUI but I guess a quick Curve View would tell the tale.  With OS X you can open the quad files and confirm if the GLOP channel has influenced the other inks or not.
>

When adding a "curve" ink channel in QTRgui, I don't see any influence on the other channels, si I assume that would be fine....

Joost

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> QTR will not print any channel onto an image that measures 255 (pure white) as QTR normally leaves pure (255) white as Paper White.  Here you must add a Levels Layer that converts white 255 to white 254 in your image before printing.

This is another fine tidbit to know for glopping. Thanks again for your thorough answer.

The CURVE_GL= command line worked as described.

I now have to really tune in the ink densities as the glop has exposed my shortcomings. I thought I had a great mix until I added the glop, too much ink. After a few tweaks I ran the 21gray step with my starting (sansglop) mix again. It looked the same as it did when I started but I really noticed the ink more. A densitomiter would be nice!
With the glop tool now in my box I am ready to hit it again this weekend, hope for rain ;).
SteveO

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> hopefully not too much of SteveO's time...
> I had no idea a GL channel in addition to the 2 toners was available...
> Tyler

Thanks for the effort, no time wasted. I think sharing thoughts and ideas on a solution is much better than sitting on your hands expecting someone else to solve it. 
SteveO

steveoshoots schreef:
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
>> QTR will not print any channel onto an image that measures 255 (pure white) as QTR normally leaves pure (255) white as Paper White.  Here you must add a Levels Layer that converts white 255 to white 254 in your image before printing.
> 
> This is another fine tidbit to know for glopping. Thanks again for your thorough answer.
> 
> The CURVE_GL= command line worked as described.
> 
> I now have to really tune in the ink densities as the glop has exposed my shortcomings. I thought I had a great mix until I added the glop, too much ink. After a few tweaks I ran the 21gray step with my starting (sansglop) mix again. It looked the same as it did when I started but I really noticed the ink more. A densitomiter would be nice!
> With the glop tool now in my box I am ready to hit it again this weekend, hope for rain ;).
> SteveO
> 
>


Both the extra Glop tool and the rain will not help on too much ink laid 
down :-)
You could of course split the printing in a B&W run and a Glop run if 
the humidity in the room isn't at 100% due to the rain.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


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due to the fact that I use another RIP for most of my work, my advances into tweaking QTR tend to be very rare, with never enough time to really catch up. I do tend to have the most recent versions, on both a Mac and a PC. Interestingly in the curve creation section of the PC version, there is no tab for a GO channel, only the usual gray and 2 toner tabs.
Anyway, just to perhaps share a bit of my months of experience working with GO and a K7 setup with a different RIP, the other posts about maximum ink are very relevant. After too many failures I wound up setting individual limits very low, then getting the GO channel curve right, then going back to see how much I could open up the limits in the gray inks for better resolution, before mottle or bleed became problematic.
Additionally, I found different papers required different GO curves, requiring different imaging ink limits, further complicated by the fact that bronzing tended to dry in over night with some papers negating the solutions I thought I had finalized.
You may very well find yourself needing 100% GO, or nearly, in highlights and/or at paper white.
I would not hesitate to consider a second GO only pass, since it's already in your printer and a simple setup.
Hope this helps a bit.
Tyler

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@> wrote:
> 
> > I had no idea a GL channel in addition to the 2 toners was available...
> 
> There seem to be a bunch of old techniques in QTR that are still floating around and working but have been superseded in function by later versions of QTR.  I was also working with the UT_3D inkset over the winter and its' use of two grays to make a black present a lot of unusual demands on the current version of QTR.  The current QTR seems to be tailored more for ease of use with an inkset with linear progressions in density. In Ron Reeder's use of QTR for digital negatives, which don't always seem to follow the needs of positive prints, I have found many usefull things that can be used in QTR, as well as in some of Paul Roark's methods used in his 3MK approach.  Just more of the wonder that is QTR.
>