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Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-10 by dtrout@...

I've discovered what I think is a problem with Calibration Mode, and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this or has an idea of what is happening.

I'm printing with Piezo Pro inks in my 7900 10-channel printer. The Green channel is mostly dead and that line is loaded with Piezoflush. All the other 9 channels have PiezoPro ink, and print perfectly.

When I print a 10-ink separation image in Calibration Mode, everything looks as expected except in the Orange channel (which has PiezoPro Cool Very Light ink). I'm seeing a really weird "overlay" of ink from the Green channel which prints very light pink in my case since my Green channel is mostly gone.

To illustrate what is happening I made up a modified TIF file of the ink separation image, printed it, then made a quick photo of that which I've uploaded to the files section (CalModeIssue.jpg). On the modified ink separation file I removed everything above the last row which shows the 0-100 density patches for the the Orange channel, then placed a number of test patches of the 100 density ink for the Orange channel at various places on the page.

The page is printed from right to left, i.e. the right edge is loaded pointing down in the printer. That's important to know, because what I'm seeing is that immediately after a patch of the Orange channel ink is printed, the printer is laying down ink from the Green channel. This should obviously NOT be happening. Furthermore, you can see where I placed a solid black line (i.e.a different ink channel) the pink (Green channel) stops.

I first noticed this problem because I saw a very light pink color in the white space between the density patches starting around 55 (you probably can't see the pink in this bad photograph I uploaded). Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the density of the Green channel overlay is proportional to the density of the Orange channel preceding it, i.e. as you move right to left to the light patches, the pink gradually disappears in between the patches.

Has anyone else seen this kind of issue printing 10-ink separation images in Calibration mode? Not sure if it matters, but I'm running QTR on Windows 10 64-bit. Any ideas appreciated.

Dave

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-11 by forums@walkerblackwell.com

Can you post this at the IJM forum? http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php  I suspect this is related to your printer more than QTR Calibration mode (the 10 channel print works fine believe me).

I don’t see this image as I no longer log into yahoo for security reasons . . .

best,
Walker
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Apr 10, 2017, at 6:29 PM, dtrout@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I've discovered what I think is a problem with Calibration Mode, and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this or has an idea of what is happening.
> 
> I'm printing with Piezo Pro inks in my 7900 10-channel printer.  The Green channel is mostly dead and that line is loaded with Piezoflush.  All the other 9 channels have PiezoPro ink, and print perfectly.
> 
> When I print a 10-ink separation image in Calibration Mode, everything looks as expected except in the Orange channel (which has PiezoPro Cool Very Light ink).  I'm seeing a really weird "overlay" of ink from the Green channel which prints very light pink in my case since my Green channel is mostly gone.
> 
> To illustrate what is happening I made up a modified TIF file of the ink separation image, printed it, then made a quick photo of that which I've uploaded to the files section (CalModeIssue.jpg).  On the modified ink separation file I removed everything above the last row which shows the 0-100 density patches for the the Orange channel, then placed a number of test patches of the 100 density ink for the Orange channel at various places on the page.
> 
> The page is printed from right to left, i.e. the right edge is loaded pointing down in the printer.  That's important to know, because what I'm seeing is that immediately after a patch of the Orange channel ink is printed, the printer is laying down ink from the Green channel.  This should obviously NOT be happening.  Furthermore, you can see where I placed a solid black line (i.e.a different ink channel) the pink (Green channel) stops.
> 
> I first noticed this problem because I saw a very light pink color in the white space between the density patches starting around 55 (you probably can't see the pink in this bad photograph I uploaded).  Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the density of the Green channel overlay is proportional to the density of the Orange channel preceding it, i.e. as you move right to left to the light patches, the pink gradually disappears in between the patches.
> 
> Has anyone else seen this kind of issue printing 10-ink separation images in Calibration mode?  Not sure if it matters, but I'm running QTR on Windows 10 64-bit.  Any ideas appreciated.
> 
> Dave
> 
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-11 by forums@walkerblackwell.com

Thanks for the image, I replied there too.

I think it’s a corruption on your system. 

I usually debug this with VMware and a downgraded version of Windows (XP or the like).  Actually, for Windows printing I only print with VMware Windows XP. This way it’s future-proof so no-matter what Windows you are using the future, qtrGUI will still work.

best,
Walker
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Apr 11, 2017, at 4:03 PM, dtrout@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Cross-posted as requested.  It's in the "Piezography curves and QTR Workflow" forum on the InkjetMall tech forum.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
>

Split tone suggestion

2017-04-12 by Mark Savoia

Anyone want to make a suggestion for a two tone split of cool highlights and warm shadows using UC inks?

I have been trying some combinations but getting weird results. Just looking for some starting suggestion numbers.

Thanks,

Mark

Re: Split tone suggestion

2017-04-12 by brian_downunda@...

I made some suggestions a while back:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/messages/14300

There was also some follow-up posts in that thread.


---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <mark@...> wrote :

Anyone want to make a suggestion for a two tone split of cool highlights and warm shadows using UC inks?

I have been trying some combinations but getting weird results. Just looking for some starting suggestion numbers.

Thanks,

Mark
stillrivereditions.com

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Split tone suggestion

2017-04-12 by Mark Savoia

Thanks.

Mark
stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:45 AM, brian_downunda@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I made some suggestions a while back:
> 
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/messages/14300 <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/messages/14300>
> 
> There was also some follow-up posts in that thread.
> 
> 
> ---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>, <mark@...> wrote :
> 
> Anyone want to make a suggestion for a two tone split of cool highlights and warm shadows using UC inks?
> 
> I have been trying some combinations but getting weird results. Just looking for some starting suggestion numbers.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark
> stillrivereditions.com <http://stillrivereditions.com/>
> 
> 
>

Re: Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-12 by brian_downunda@...

What kind of weird results were you getting?

As I said somewhere in that thread, it is possible to create a layered TIFF that simulates the split, and then fine-tune the split by varying the layer opacities. But as the effect of the toning is quite subtle you need a very precise and accurate soft-proofing environment in order to see the effect of the split on your monitor in a way that accurately predicts what you'll see in a print. For this approach to work, you also need test images, and the choice of image can have a bearing on the split you end up with.

Re: Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-13 by dtrout@...

Mark, Brian,
FYI...Your discussion here about splits is somehow showing up in this thread I started about a totally different topic (problems with Calibration Mode). Mark, it looks like you must have replied to a message in my thread rather than starting a new thread with your splits topic. Just thought you might want to know.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-13 by Roy Harrington

Hi Dave

Are you running the latest QTR driver ? I seem to remember something strange about orange and green
But that was a while back. Unfortunately I don't have a 10 ink printer to test this out. I'm pretty sure
this would not affect ordinary printing.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:29 PM, dtrout@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I've discovered what I think is a problem with Calibration Mode, and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this or has an idea of what is happening.

I'm printing with Piezo Pro inks in my 7900 10-channel printer. The Green channel is mostly dead and that line is loaded with Piezoflush. All the other 9 channels have PiezoPro ink, and print perfectly.

When I print a 10-ink separation image in Calibration Mode, everything looks as expected except in the Orange channel (which has PiezoPro Cool Very Light ink). I'm seeing a really weird "overlay" of ink from the Green channel which prints very light pink in my case since my Green channel is mostly gone.

To illustrate what is happening I made up a modified TIF file of the ink separation image, printed it, then made a quick photo of that which I've uploaded to the files section (CalModeIssue.jpg). On the modified ink separation file I removed everything above the last row which shows the 0-100 density patches for the the Orange channel, then placed a number of test patches of the 100 density ink for the Orange channel at various places on the page.

The page is printed from right to left, i.e. the right edge is loaded pointing down in the printer. That's important to know, because what I'm seeing is that immediately after a patch of the Orange channel ink is printed, the printer is laying down ink from the Green channel. This should obviously NOT be happening. Furthermore, you can see where I placed a solid black line (i.e.a different ink channel) the pink (Green channel) stops.

I first noticed this problem because I saw a very light pink color in the white space between the density patches starting around 55 (you probably can't see the pink in this bad photograph I uploaded). Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the density of the Green channel overlay is proportional to the density of the Orange channel preceding it, i.e. as you move right to left to the light patches, the pink gradually disappears in between the patches.

Has anyone else seen this kind of issue printing 10-ink separation images in Calibration mode? Not sure if it matters, but I'm running QTR on Windows 10 64-bit. Any ideas appreciated.

Dave




--
Roy Harrington
roy@...
www.harrington.com

Re: Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-13 by brian_downunda@...

Yes, I know. Sorry. I was only replying to Mark's message. Mark - if you want to continue this then perhaps copy the message history and start a new thread.


---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <dtrout@...> wrote :

Mark, Brian,
FYI...Your discussion here about splits is somehow showing up in this thread I started about a totally different topic (problems with Calibration Mode). Mark, it looks like you must have replied to a message in my thread rather than starting a new thread with your splits topic. Just thought you might want to know.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Calibration Mode - Weird issue with 10-ink separation image

2017-04-13 by dtrout@...

Hi Roy,

Yes, I'm running the latest QTR version. I can also confirm the problem exists on Windows 7 64-bit. On a clean Windows 7 64-bit system I have here, I did a fresh install of the Epson 7900 driver, then a fresh install of QTR. Same results: when printing a 10-ink separation image (which includes the additional Green and Orange channels) in Calibration Mode with QTRGui, there is a pattern of Green ink being printed in what should be white space next to the patches of Orange ink.

I've done some more testing and have now concluded that this is definitely not a hardware issue or corrupted printing pipeline. It's as if the rasterized calibration image being sent to the printer is somehow including Green channel data AFTER any Orange channel patch has been processed during rasterization up until a different object is encountered which uses a different channel.

Also, the corruption in the rasterized image is happening ONLY in the long dimension of the image regardless of orientation of the page. (This tells me that QTR rasterization processing is starting on the short edge of the image [which is printed first] and then continues the length of the image.) See "CalModeIssue2.jpg" which I've just posted in the files section to see what I mean. In this image, I put a row of increasing density Orange patches across the top (short edge) of the page. You can see that the pink Piezoflush (from the Green channel) is printing DOWN in this case compared to CalModeIssue.jpg where it occurred horizontally. But in both cases, the corruption is in the direction of the long dimension of the image.

Furthermore, you can see from CalModeIssue2.jpg that the density of the Green ink corruption is proportional to the density of the Orange patch being printed (rasterized) first. This is even more evidence to me that there is something REALLY strange happening in the rasterization process.

Now, you say this is most likely not affecting printing in normal mode, and my printing so far would support that observation, but this is clearly a bit unnerving. What I conclude so far is:

  • Printing a 10-ink separation image to a 10-channel printer in Calibration Mode results in corruption of the image relating to Green and Orange ink channels
  • I have not seen any issues when printing 8-channel separation images. It only occurs if the image includes the additional Orange channel.. Even if there is no Green channel ink in the image, the Green channel corruption still occurs.
  • The problem has been observed on both Windows 10 64-bit and Windows 7 64-bit installations of QTR using QTRGui. Not known (by me) if this also occurs on MacOS.
  • I'm just guessing here (no definitive data yet), but I suspect the problem lies in the rasterization code, possibly not in QTRGui itself.

I'd be happy to assist with any further testing on this if it would help identify and fix the problem. I'd also like to know if this has been observed on MacOS with 10-channel printers in Calibration Mode. A test on MacOS would be the next thing that needs to be done so that we can identify if this is related to OS platform implementation or not.


Thanks, Dave



---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <roy@...> wrote :

Hi Dave

Are you running the latest QTR driver ? I seem to remember something strange about orange and green
But that was a while back. Unfortunately I don't have a 10 ink printer to test this out. I'm pretty sure
this would not affect ordinary printing.

Roy
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