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Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-13 by Mark Stracke

I'm having trouble linearizing an 1160 with piezotone inks. I get the
Ink Pattern printed well and have a limit to set in the curve I am
making. The question is: how to determine the values I should enter
for the three grey dilutions? I'm on a Mac..
	
	When I try to linearize based on an included curve for piezo inks I
get an error regarding the densities not constantly increasing. The
readings I get from my eyeOne do seem to be increasing throughout the
scale, sometimes only by .1, but they do increase. This error problem
is why I am trying to build my own curve from scratch.
	
	I measured the max density patches on the other three inks. The
values are in L and converted to density. Do I use these numbers to
calculate the entries for my curve? And if so how? Or am I totally off
base. Any help would be appreciated.
	
	
	
btw, I have worked through this process before with the freeware Mac
program on 10.1 and 10.2. I stupidly threw out my old version and the
curves that had worked so well when I installed the latest version to
check it out. So I have some experience and have achieved success in
the past. 


Thanks in Advance

Mark Stracke

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-13 by Olivier

If I can help : please see below.
Olivier

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stracke" 
<markastracke@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm having trouble linearizing an 1160 with piezotone inks. I get 
the
> Ink Pattern printed well and have a limit to set in the curve I am
> making. The question is: how to determine the values I should enter
> for the three grey dilutions? I'm on a Mac..
> 	
I have the same setting except a 1290 and XP, I assume you use only 4 
parts of grey on a 1190.

> 	When I try to linearize based on an included curve for piezo 
inks I
> get an error regarding the densities not constantly increasing. The
> readings I get from my eyeOne do seem to be increasing throughout 
the
> scale, sometimes only by .1, but they do increase. This error 
problem
> is why I am trying to build my own curve from scratch.

This is the way I adopted too. So first look for a DEFAULT INK LIMIT 
by measuring the darkest (densier) patch of the Ink Pattern with the 
smallest % (you should be somewhere 60-70%). I decided to take the 
habit to limit a little more than balck boost is the way later to 
increase Dmax.

Reprint with Ink limit (slider pushed a bit on the right in the main 
QTR window, see Tom's tuto for images)at the corresponding %tage. 
Make sure to re-measure the K line from 100% to 70%, density MUST 
decrease.
> 	
> 	I measured the max density patches on the other three inks. 
The
> values are in L and converted to density. Do I use these numbers to
> calculate the entries for my curve? And if so how? Or am I totally 
off
> base. Any help would be appreciated.

Now you can measure the 100% patch of the other greys and convert it 
into a %tage of K. Here I'm just copying another post :
"
we are looking for is what would match 1.29 (the 100% light-black)
so in the black ramp we have: patch 40 is 1.22 and patch 45 is 1.33
imagine that we had intermediate patches 41, 42, 43, 44 -- which is
most likely to match the 1.29?

mathematically what you doing is: 5 levels (i.e 45 - 40) is a 
difference
of 1.33 - 1.22 = 0.11 but we only want 1.29 - 1.22 = 0.07
so (0.07 / 0.11) * 5 = 3.2 levels i.e. 40 + 3.2 = 43.2

Or:
wanted-diff-levels = total-diff-levels * (wanted-diff-density /
total-diff-density)
3.2 = 5 * ( 0.07 / 0.11 )
"

Now quickly since you know : you set up your curve, Black Boost (110-
115% of default ink limit, Highlight (4)/shadows (8); overlapping 
around 10-15% to have some dark grey ink with K...
Now print the stepwedge with this raw curve (you've named and saved 
it prior to this) possibly at 108% to have large patches on A4 and 
measure more easily, measure it, drop it to the linearize droplet, 
reprint the now linearised stepwedge, remeasure with the eye-one, 
produce the file (either from a PM5 .txt example or apparently in any 
format with the latest version) to drag-drop to Create-ICC. And 
you're done. 

If I'm wrong somewhere (I do it from memory), someone will surely 
point it out.

Save your qidf and icc files in a safe place, this is all you need to 
re-create the curves and the results.
> 	
> 	
> 	
> btw, I have worked through this process before with the freeware Mac
> program on 10.1 and 10.2. I stupidly threw out my old version and 
the
> curves that had worked so well when I installed the latest version 
to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> check it out. So I have some experience and have achieved success in
> the past. 
> 
> 
> Thanks in Advance
> 
> Mark Stracke
>

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-13 by Olivier

If I can help : please see below.
Olivier

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stracke" 
<markastracke@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm having trouble linearizing an 1160 with piezotone inks. I get 
the
> Ink Pattern printed well and have a limit to set in the curve I am
> making. The question is: how to determine the values I should enter
> for the three grey dilutions? I'm on a Mac..
> 	
I have the same setting except a 1290 and XP, I assume you use only 4 
parts of grey on a 1190.

> 	When I try to linearize based on an included curve for piezo 
inks I
> get an error regarding the densities not constantly increasing. The
> readings I get from my eyeOne do seem to be increasing throughout 
the
> scale, sometimes only by .1, but they do increase. This error 
problem
> is why I am trying to build my own curve from scratch.

This is the way I adopted too. So first look for a DEFAULT INK LIMIT 
by measuring the darkest (densier) patch of the Ink Pattern with the 
smallest % (you should be somewhere 60-70%). I decided to take the 
habit to limit a little more than balck boost is the way later to 
increase Dmax.

Reprint with Ink limit (slider pushed a bit on the right in the main 
QTR window, see Tom's tuto for images)at the corresponding %tage. 
Make sure to re-measure the K line from 100% to 70%, density MUST 
decrease.
> 	
> 	I measured the max density patches on the other three inks. 
The
> values are in L and converted to density. Do I use these numbers to
> calculate the entries for my curve? And if so how? Or am I totally 
off
> base. Any help would be appreciated.

Now you can measure the 100% patch of the other greys and convert it 
into a %tage of K. Here I'm just copying another post :
"
we are looking for is what would match 1.29 (the 100% light-black)
so in the black ramp we have: patch 40 is 1.22 and patch 45 is 1.33
imagine that we had intermediate patches 41, 42, 43, 44 -- which is
most likely to match the 1.29?

mathematically what you doing is: 5 levels (i.e 45 - 40) is a 
difference
of 1.33 - 1.22 = 0.11 but we only want 1.29 - 1.22 = 0.07
so (0.07 / 0.11) * 5 = 3.2 levels i.e. 40 + 3.2 = 43.2

Or:
wanted-diff-levels = total-diff-levels * (wanted-diff-density /
total-diff-density)
3.2 = 5 * ( 0.07 / 0.11 )
"

Now quickly since you know : you set up your curve, Black Boost (110-
115% of default ink limit, Highlight (4)/shadows (8); overlapping 
around 10-15% to have some dark grey ink with K...
Now print the stepwedge with this raw curve (you've named and saved 
it prior to this) possibly at 108% to have large patches on A4 and 
measure more easily, measure it, drop it to the linearize droplet, 
reprint the now linearised stepwedge, remeasure with the eye-one, 
produce the file (either from a PM5 .txt example or apparently in any 
format with the latest version) to drag-drop to Create-ICC. And 
you're done. 

If I'm wrong somewhere (I do it from memory), someone will surely 
point it out.

Save your qidf and icc files in a safe place, this is all you need to 
re-create the curves and the results.
> 	
> 	
> 	
> btw, I have worked through this process before with the freeware Mac
> program on 10.1 and 10.2. I stupidly threw out my old version and 
the
> curves that had worked so well when I installed the latest version 
to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> check it out. So I have some experience and have achieved success in
> the past. 
> 
> 
> Thanks in Advance
> 
> Mark Stracke
>

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-16 by Mark Stracke

Thanks Olivier for your advice. I'm still sticking on a point or two.
Reminder: I'm trying to linearize a piezotone inkset set on an 1160
printer.



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@y...> wrote:


> Reprint with Ink limit (slider pushed a bit on the right in the main 
> QTR window, see Tom's tuto for images)at the corresponding %tage. 

   
   
   I'm on a Mac so I don't have the QTR window. 
   After finding the ink limit from the first printing I reprinted the
inkseperation file and used the ink limit drop box in the final print
dialog to set the limit. I wanted to set 70% as my ink limit so I
chose -30 (lighter). There was virtually no difference in the
resulting print. The inks leveled out at the same point. I have
subsequently printed the file with -50(lighter) and +50(darker) and
all the prints are pretty much the same. Clearly I'm getting something
wrong here, any suggestions?
   
   set up: Inkseparation.tiff
   Mac OS X 10.4
   Photoshop 7
   open file with no color management
   source space-untagged rgb 
   print space-same as source
   mode: qtr calibration

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-16 by Olivier

Hi Mark,

The slider you want to move to 70% is actually the "Ink calibartion 
mode"  called INK. It's in the middle of the window and it goes from 
left to right. It's just above "ink limit adjustment shadows".

Olivier

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stracke" 
<markastracke@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Olivier for your advice. I'm still sticking on a point or 
two.
> Reminder: I'm trying to linearize a piezotone inkset set on an 1160
> printer.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Reprint with Ink limit (slider pushed a bit on the right in the 
main 
> > QTR window, see Tom's tuto for images)at the corresponding %tage. 
> 
>    
>    
>    I'm on a Mac so I don't have the QTR window. 
>    After finding the ink limit from the first printing I reprinted 
the
> inkseperation file and used the ink limit drop box in the final 
print
> dialog to set the limit. I wanted to set 70% as my ink limit so I
> chose -30 (lighter). There was virtually no difference in the
> resulting print. The inks leveled out at the same point. I have
> subsequently printed the file with -50(lighter) and +50(darker) and
> all the prints are pretty much the same. Clearly I'm getting 
something
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> wrong here, any suggestions?
>    
>    set up: Inkseparation.tiff
>    Mac OS X 10.4
>    Photoshop 7
>    open file with no color management
>    source space-untagged rgb 
>    print space-same as source
>    mode: qtr calibration
>

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-17 by Mark Stracke

The problem is, there are no sliders. I'm using a Mac. Any insights on
why the ink limit setting in the printer dialog seems to have no effect?

Thanks!
Mark

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Mark,
> 
> The slider you want to move to 70% is actually the "Ink calibartion 
> mode"  called INK. It's in the middle of the window and it goes from 
> left to right. It's just above "ink limit adjustment shadows".
>

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-17 by Olivier

I'm on XP. However I'm surprise on Mac you don't have the slider when 
in Calibration mode : I think i's a farily standard interface Mac/Pc.

The Ink Calibration Mode slider limit the total amount of ink you will 
be loading the paper with so that K goes clearly decreasing when 
measured from 100% to 0% (in fact L* or density of each K patch). You 
can then measure each other ink 100% patches vs the K patches.

If you do not have this slider (again I'm surprised)then I can't really 
advise. But I'm very very surprised (you find it when you click option -
> calibration mode and can't miss it the heading is red.

Olivier

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stracke" <markastracke@y...> 
wrote:
>
> The problem is, there are no sliders. I'm using a Mac. Any insights on
> why the ink limit setting in the printer dialog seems to have no 
effect?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Thanks!
> Mark
>

Re: Lineariztion and Ink Partition Question

2005-10-17 by Mark Stracke

Thanks again Olivier,
 
 Things do work differently on the Mac. Inkjet Mall has a good tutorial with screen shots so 
you can see what I'm referring to. The Mac version follows the Windows about 3/4 of the 
way down the page.

http://inkjetmall.com/nk7support/k7-2200-guide.htm

 The QTR dialogs are part of the print driver and you print out of an application. Selecting 
"Calibration" from the drop down menu doesn't change the interface, and as I said I 
adjusted the "Ink Limit Adj" drop down but saw no change at -30 (For my 70% limit) and 
no discernable difference between -50 and +50. I made a huge move to see if anything 
was happening and I don't see that anything changes. This should make a really big 
difference, right???
  Can anyone from the Mac side advise on this? I have been making curves by guessing at 
partitions and working on the text files, but I'd like to get some accurate readings on the 
ink partions (black and 3 piezotone greys)

Thanks for any help

Mark




--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> If you do not have this slider (again I'm surprised)then I can't really 
> advise. But I'm very very surprised (you find it when you click option -
> > calibration mode and can't miss it the heading is red.
> 
> Olivier

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