Homebrew_PCBs

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "hjf2k2" <drgenio@h...> wrote:
> Hi all, i've been testing a way to make photo etching cheap'n easy. I
> went to a Screen-print shop and bought photosensitive emulsion, the
> cheapest type. I mixed the components and painted the emulsion on the
> copper. Then I let it dry overnight in a (pitch) dark place.
> On a transparency I printed the negative of my circuit and placed the
> transparency, toner side to the emulsion and placed it under a
> fluorescent lamp for 7 minutes or so. I removed the board and nothing
> seemed to change, until I ran some water over the board, and with a
> hair brush for babies (the softer-than-hair type) i helped the
water.
> The exposed areas dried up but the rest washed with water. GREAT
> precision, SMD quality. Then I let the board again now in the sun to
> totally burn the emulsion and it was ready for etching, warm (hot)
> ferric chloride.
>
> Hope that helps.
> Some day I'll try the AZO-based emulsion, but that one needs UV
curing.

> Is there a way to get the "Cured" emulsion off of the traces after
> etching?
>

> Can you posts pics please? I'm really curious as to how it came

> trying out the Pulsar technique right now and I like it. I had some
> messing-up around the edge 'cause my PCB was VERY corroded; I

> as long as my arms could handle. But I have another brand of PCB

> obvious that the first one was VERY old.
>
> I'm also switching to 1/32" thick PCB. The GBC H300 laminator does NOT
> digest 1/16" boards very well; it burped and farted the whole time,

> to force-feed it by hand with another blank board.
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

> la part de hjf2k2
> Envoyé : juillet 23 2005 13:19
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Experimental method
>
>
> Hi all, i've been testing a way to make photo etching cheap'n easy.

> to a Screen-print shop and bought photosensitive emulsion, the cheapest
> type. I mixed the components and painted the emulsion on the copper.

> let it dry overnight in a (pitch) dark place. On a transparency I

> the negative of my circuit and placed the transparency, toner side

> emulsion and placed it under a fluorescent lamp for 7 minutes or so. I
> removed the board and nothing seemed to change, until I ran some

> the board, and with a hair brush for babies (the softer-than-hair

> helped the water. The exposed areas dried up but the rest washed

> GREAT precision, SMD quality. Then I let the board again now in the

> totally burn the emulsion and it was ready for etching, warm (hot)

> chloride.
>
> Hope that helps.
> Some day I'll try the AZO-based emulsion, but that one needs UV curing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "hjf2k2" <drgenio@h...> wrote:
> Hi all, i've been testing a way to make photo etching cheap'n easy.
I
> went to a Screen-print shop and bought photosensitive emulsion, the
> cheapest type. I mixed the components and painted the emulsion on
the
> copper. Then I let it dry overnight in a (pitch) dark place.
<snip>

> Could you tell us the brand name of the emulsion you used, what sort
> of quantities are available, and its shelf life?

>
> Do you have any indication as to how well the emulsion would stand up
> to other etchants, particularly CuCl?

>
> Did you have to do anything special to get a smooth coating of the
> emulsion onto the copper?

>
>
> Regards, Bob
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "hjf2k2" <drgenio@h...> wrote:
> > Hi all, i've been testing a way to make photo etching cheap'n easy.
> I
> > went to a Screen-print shop and bought photosensitive emulsion, the
> > cheapest type. I mixed the components and painted the emulsion on
> the
> > copper. Then I let it dry overnight in a (pitch) dark place.
> <snip>

> Can you posts pics please? I'm really curious as to how it came out.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@h...> wrote:
> Screen cleaner should strip it off easily. When a silk screen is done
> with a job, it can be cleaned of the cured emulsion and reused.
>
>
> Regards, Bob
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
> > Is there a way to get the "Cured" emulsion off of the traces after
> > etching?
> >

> I agree - post the pixs please! He didn't say how the board came out,
> what kind of design rules (trace width, etc), cleaning ... It would
> be also good to know the cost of the treatment - great if the PCB +
> sensitizer + developer is less than presensitized boards.

> Phil,
>
> I can't speak for the H200, but from the point of view of the H300,

> are useless. I can't for the life of me figure out how it alters

> Had you tried passing a 1/16" PCB through the H200 before the mod?

> have liked to know if you observed ANY before and after difference.
>
> I know the H300 and 200 might not share the same construction and

> but I don't think that's the case. I think they only difference if

> the rollers. I think they share the same mechanism, it wouldn't make
> business sense to have so many different frames in a line of

> change the frame and roller lengths). The pics in the Pulsar directions
> 'appear' to be identical to my H300 except for size. I suppose you need
> both laminators side by side to say for sure.
>
> Before you start cutting plastic on your 200, take it apart for

> Look at how the rolls are attached to the chassis; that shiny metallic
> framework that takes up most of the space.
>
> The only mod that might do 'some' difference is the cutting of the

> might give the mechanism a bit more play when you push on the tab. That
> might give you more movement of the rollers to get a stuck PCB out

> mechanism, but that's about all I can figure out. All that tab does is
> rotate a gear using a small tooth.
>
> 1/32" PCB went through the H300 beautifully. I made one mistake, I

> piece of paper to act as a carrier; as suggested on the H300 casing.

> mistake, I think the carrier prevented adequate heating of the transfer
> material. It is most obvious along the edges of the PCB, the toner

> flakes off a perfectly clean board. I believe the extra thickness

> relieved roller pressure along the sides. The center area of the

> perfect, no flaws.
>
> I'm making another test tonight after my online race (woohoo, I love

> I'm cleaning the toner off with acetone and starting the process

> post a pic of my first good PCB, all my attempts so far are

>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

> la part de Phil
> Envoyé : juillet 23 2005 16:53
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Experimental method
>
>
> Robert, have you mod'd the GBC for thicker material? The pulsar

> are ok (just ok) for the 200. I would not force the laminator too

> plastic gears on the 200 do not look like they can handle much stress.
>
> I believe that .032 PCB material goes through and unmod'd 200 just fine.
> I've fed it myself and there was aposting about 6-9 months ago on

> as well. I may have some .032 -- need to check my stock.
>
> Phil
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links

> I use children's construction paper as a carrier. I
> have to feed the assembly through the H200 20 times to get good
> heating for toner adhesion. This more than other have reported and
> some day I'll figure out why (I suspect my temp is a little low).
> without a carrier, the paper with the artwork sometimes slips.
> Phil

> Hi,
>
>
> whille looking around for a shop vac to catch drilling dust i had

>
> If i set up the CNC for EDM anyway, why not simply drill the

> water?
>
> Then the water could simply be discarded after drilling the hols

> milling the outline.
>
>
> What do you think? Any problems?
> Maybe the cooling from the water would even be good? Does carbide

>
> thanks
>
> ST

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] what if - drilling under water


> Hi,
>
>
> whille looking around for a shop vac to catch drilling dust i had an idea.
>
> If i set up the CNC for EDM anyway, why not simply drill the boards under
> water?
>
> Then the water could simply be discarded after drilling the hols and
> milling the outline.
>
>
> What do you think? Any problems?
> Maybe the cooling from the water would even be good? Does carbide rust?

The board might need to be dried in an oven before soldering. I've had
problems with DS PTH PCBs absorbing moisture which causes bubbles in the
solder joints. Probably not a problem with SS PCBs, though.

Carbide won't rust.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

>
> The board might need to be dried in an oven before soldering. I've had
> problems with DS PTH PCBs absorbing moisture which causes bubbles in the
> solder joints. Probably not a problem with SS PCBs, though.
> Carbide won't rust.
> Leon

> Hi Stefan,
> The process of drilling metal under water I have done in the past -
> usually with very hard steels and at very slow spindle speeds.
> FOr PCBs, there could be a big problem though. When drilling, the
> material may create a chip that is a "long string" which could fling
> the water all about your shop. I have not drilled enough PCB
> material to know how the chips develope and break so I am unsure of
> this.

> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:58:24 +0200, lcdpublishing
> <lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Stefan,
> > The process of drilling metal under water I have done in the

> > usually with very hard steels and at very slow spindle speeds.
> > FOr PCBs, there could be a big problem though. When drilling,

> > material may create a chip that is a "long string" which could

> > the water all about your shop. I have not drilled enough PCB
> > material to know how the chips develope and break so I am unsure

> > this.
>
>
> Well, most seems to be fine dust when drilling in air.
> But sometimes fibers seem to stick together and accumulate on the

> It isn't very strong fibers and i don't think it could stay at the

> in water (drag), it comes off very easily when drilling in air.
>
> Easy enough to try out with a small water container and the drill

>
> thanks
>
> ST

> OH, and I forget to mention also!
> As you know, water and electricity make for nasty enemies!
> Depending on the helix angle of the drill (or other cutting tool) it
> may make for a pump to pull water up the tool and, with enough
> velocity, into the motor - that might cause some problems.
> I would certainly do tests on a drill press first - water on the
> spindle won't hurt it like water in a dremel motor.
> Chris

> Nah, i understand what you mean. Maybe i make a washer on the drill

> deflect any water outward

>
> If your liquid is sticky, maybe you can use wax paper in your mold,

> out a panel from a teflon frying pan. Wax paper will most likely

> patterns', a hard surface like teflow is better.
>

> I love it! It's great seeing people from around the world use different
> techniques and material to achieve the same goal. I nearly fell off my
> chair with the pic of the PCB hanging under the neon lamp. :D
>

> I love your lab, it makes me realize just how badly I have to clean

> workspace. Ugh...

>
> Have you considered using a spray bottle to apply the

>

> I would guess that US and Canada might not have access to all those
> materials. Laws on cancerigenic (sp), toxic, radioactive :D

> a bit severe here. I wonder if equivalent materials could be

> photodevelopment sources and such? I heard of a product from Kodak that
> worked wonders, but I can never remember the name.

>
> I'm intrigued by your problem with even distribution of that
> photo-purple-liquid. At first I thought of a centrifuge like the

> the Yahoo Casting group use to spin casts, but that would be messy and
> probably excessive force. You just want to make sure that your

> evenly across the PCB.
>

> Have you thought of a small press? Sandwiching another layer over

> forcing the liquid flat. Place a thin spacer and you have a controlled
> 'area' to pour in your liquid. The same way as we make foundations for
> houses over here, a vertical mold, except your would be less than

>
> If your liquid is sticky, maybe you can use wax paper in your mold,

> out a panel from a teflon frying pan. Wax paper will most likely

> patterns', a hard surface like teflow is better.

>
> Very nice results considering how you went about to get them.
>

> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

> la part de hjf2k2
> Envoyé : juillet 24 2005 17:18
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Experimental method
>
>
> Hey everyone. I posted the pictures as promised. Here they are:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/PhotoEtching/
>
> It's a RAR file with the pictures. Sadly the board came out

> as it seems that I "underdeveloped" it, that is, didn't clean it out
> properly :(, but you can see that even in that case there are pretty

> results.
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links

> Maybe I'll be able to
> dissolve the thick liquid, in order to get a thinner layer.

> Ask the manufacturer which solvent they use, or try yourself, acetone
> surely works, maybe alcohol.

> I too encountered the jamming problem with 0.062 material. Refer to
> message 7700 for a different solution.
>
> Lyman

>
> One thing I had not considered was the toner, I'm using a

> PagePro 1350W laser. The green foil is not adhering 'perfectly'.

> I thought it was the heating process, but I just realized it might

> toner quality. I have a HP LaserJet 2100 ready for test #3, I have

> heard any negative results with HP toner.
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

> la part de hjf2k2
> Envoyé : juillet 24 2005 17:18
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Experimental method
>
>
> Hey everyone. I posted the pictures as promised. Here they are:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/PhotoEtching/
>
> It's a RAR file with the pictures. Sadly the board came out

> as it seems that I "underdeveloped" it, that is, didn't clean it out
> properly :(, but you can see that even in that case there are pretty

> results.
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links

> I also used a plastic bin, I can't see myself just dabbing at the

> without a vessel; hybrid technique, Pulsar sponge technique with

> more etchant and a container. I had about an ounce of FeCL sloshing

> plus the FeCL stored in the sponge tip. The edges of the PCB were

> dipped in the etchant and yet it made no difference. It's like my

> etched from the center and worked outwards, in a circular pattern,

> like a portal to another dimension...
>
> (...X Files theme...)
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

> la part de bob_ledoux
> Envoyé : juillet 25 2005 17:52
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Experimental method
>
>
> The Pulsar Green Foil is great to allow sponging on the etchant--no

> needed. If it doesn't stick properly the first time, run it

> laminator again with an unused bit of foil over the bad area. This

> for me.
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links

> am changing my voltmeter design a 3rd time and going with the LM3914. I
> have yet to figure out how I can use it for an ammeter, but that's

> story.

----- Original Message -----
From: hjf2k2
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Experimental method


> Ask the manufacturer which solvent they use, or try yourself, acetone
> surely works, maybe alcohol.

I just called the manufacturer, they told me to use distilled water,
20% will reduce the viscosity to 50%. Maybe enough for an airbrush.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Gents
> just a thought, could this stuff be diluted enough for use in a inkjet
> printer then printing direct onto the copper board
> ....
> my old canon 200spx is ready for such a job LOL
> Thomas

> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:51:16 +0200, Thomas
> <teecee@...> wrote:
>
> > Gents
> > just a thought, could this stuff be diluted enough
> for use in a inkjet
> > printer then printing direct onto the copper board
> > ....
> > my old canon 200spx is ready for such a job LOL
> > Thomas
>
>
> As i have said before, inkjet printig photosensitive
> ink is doing double
> the work.
> Why would you need photosensitive ink when it is
> already printed in the
> right pattern?
>
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post
> them here:
>

>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Trethan
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Experimental method


On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:51:16 +0200, Thomas <teecee@...> wrote:

> Gents
> just a thought, could this stuff be diluted enough for use in a inkjet
> printer then printing direct onto the copper board
> ....
> my old canon 200spx is ready for such a job LOL
> Thomas


As i have said before, inkjet printig photosensitive ink is doing double
the work.
Why would you need photosensitive ink when it is already printed in the
right pattern?


ST



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ... if it works, who cares !
> UDC2 & UDC3 is good for a solder mask so it says
> http://www.ink4u.ca/emulsions.htm
> then maybe its good enough to protect the copper etc from the etching
> solution.

> > am changing my voltmeter design a 3rd time and going with the LM3914. I
> > have yet to figure out how I can use it for an ammeter, but that's
>
> another
>
> > story.
>
> shunt. http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14175/css/14175_33.htm
>
> That's how those cheap digital testers work, if you crack one open
> you'll find a big piece of wire (1,5mm diameter, about 1 inch long),
> that's the shunt resistor.
>
> BTW, you know about the ICL7107 right? It's a 40-pin IC with all you
> need to drive a 3 1/2 digit 7-seg led display, exactly like cheap
> testers. www.intersil.com, order free samples with free shipping!

> Yeah, but the Maxim replacement allows fewer external components...

>
> I asked Maxim for samples and printed literature and all they sent was
> a CD-ROM with the datasheets...
> Intersil sent my samples via fedex from hong kong, and they paid for
> all the shipping and customs...

> you can order maxim samples online on their page, no hassle or anything.
> Just click on order samples on a product page.

> Look, if you just can't get them to ship them to you, ask if someone

> can act as an intermediate.

> I'd volunteer, but I'm stretching the generosity of the 'samples' system
> already.

>> you can order maxim samples online on their page, no hassle or anything.
>> Just click on order samples on a product page.
> I did a while ago and all they sent was the CD-ROM, apparently they
> don't ship outside the US. I'll try again anyway.

----- Original Message -----
From: "hjf2k2" <drgenio@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:42 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Experimental method


>> you can order maxim samples online on their page, no hassle or anything.
>> Just click on order samples on a product page.
> I did a while ago and all they sent was the CD-ROM, apparently they
> don't ship outside the US. I'll try again anyway.

I don't have any problems getting samples from Maxim UK, I give them a phone
call and get them the next day.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

> I don't have any problems getting samples from Maxim UK, I give them

> call and get them the next day.

>
> Lucky you. I contacted the distributor and I have to fill a form
> stating the estimated annual production, estimated date for
> prototypes, etc. And they will EVALUATE if they send the samples. I
> imagine the answer: "dear sir/madam: we have evaluated your request
> and found it doesn't meet our requirements, so we have decided to
> reject it.". Or something like that :(. But I'll try anyway

> Don't go over the distributor, go over maxim directly.
> www.maxim-ic.com -> search for the chip you want -> bottom left "order
> samples" -> get them.
>
> I don't understand why this shouldn`t work for you.

> As soon as you are starting to talk to people they can tell you to sod
> off, if you use the web interface nobody thinks about you and it

> automatic.

>
> THEY DON'T SHIP DIRECTLY TO ARGENTINA. Do you think I would go through
> all this trouble if I could do it directly via maxim?

> > THEY DON'T SHIP DIRECTLY TO ARGENTINA. Do you think I would go through
> > all this trouble if I could do it directly via maxim?
>
>
> Oh sorry i must have missed that.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "hjf2k2" <drgenio@h...> wrote:
> Hi all, i've been testing a way to make photo etching cheap'n easy.
I
> went to a Screen-print shop and bought photosensitive emulsion, the
> cheapest type. I mixed the components and painted the emulsion on
the
> copper. Then I let it dry overnight in a (pitch) dark place.
> On a transparency I printed the negative of my circuit and placed
the
> transparency, toner side to the emulsion and placed it under a
> fluorescent lamp for 7 minutes or so. I removed the board and
nothing
> seemed to change, until I ran some water over the board, and with a
> hair brush for babies (the softer-than-hair type) i helped the
water.
> The exposed areas dried up but the rest washed with water. GREAT
> precision, SMD quality. Then I let the board again now in the sun
to
> totally burn the emulsion and it was ready for etching, warm (hot)
> ferric chloride.
>
> Hope that helps.
> Some day I'll try the AZO-based emulsion, but that one needs UV
curing.

>
> I asked Maxim for samples and printed literature and all they sent