Homebrew PCBs

I ran across a website that sells Roland Stika vinyl cutters 
and "cutronics foil" for making pcb boards.

www.techsoftuk.co.uk

Check under software and "PCB design and make" for more info.

Futher googling found an upgrade kit to convert a dot matrix printer 
to a vinyl cutter.

This may be more practical (cheaper) than the cnc route.

I'm going to check out the local sign shops to see if they would use 
the cutronics foil. Or maybe look ing converting a plotter to cut 
the foil.

Note: I have no vested interest with either Techsoft of Roland, but 
it seems like a clever idea.

Myc

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:02:21 -0000, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

> I ran across a website that sells Roland Stika vinyl cutters
> and "cutronics foil" for making pcb boards.
> www.techsoftuk.co.uk
> Check under software and "PCB design and make" for more info.
> Futher googling found an upgrade kit to convert a dot matrix printer
> to a vinyl cutter.
> This may be more practical (cheaper) than the cnc route.
> I'm going to check out the local sign shops to see if they would use
> the cutronics foil. Or maybe look ing converting a plotter to cut
> the foil.
> Note: I have no vested interest with either Techsoft of Roland, but
> it seems like a clever idea.
> Myc
>


Steve has said a while back he tried a cutter, but i wasn't impressed with  
the result ;-)

ST

On Thursday 07 April 2005 02:02 pm, mycroft2152 wrote:
> I ran across a website that sells Roland Stika vinyl cutters
> and "cutronics foil" for making pcb boards.
>
> www.techsoftuk.co.uk
>
> Check under software and "PCB design and make" for more info.
>
> Futher googling found an upgrade kit to convert a dot matrix printer
> to a vinyl cutter.

Where?  I have a number of old dot-matrix printers around...

> I ran across a website that sells Roland Stika vinyl cutters
> and "cutronics foil" for making pcb boards.
> www.techsoftuk.co.uk
> Check under software and "PCB design and make" for more info.
> Futher googling found an upgrade kit to convert a dot matrix printer
> to a vinyl cutter.
> This may be more practical (cheaper) than the cnc route.
> I'm going to check out the local sign shops to see if they would use
> the cutronics foil. Or maybe look ing converting a plotter to cut
> the foil.
> Note: I have no vested interest with either Techsoft of Roland, but
> it seems like a clever idea.

    You can use even normal vinyl for that, but forget something less than 40
mils wide. I have one here, and the results are not so good. Stick to thermal
transfer instead.



-- 
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 6/4/2005

If you had checked out the website before replying, you would have 
seen that the unique part of the process is the "cutfoil". A 
commercial adhesive backed copper product that is used for the 
traces. The cutfoil is cut, weeded, and then the circuit is then 
laminated to a substrate.

No etching required.

By the way, how narrow a trace can you achieve with cnc routing of 
boards? And how narrow a trace does a home brewer really need?

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre-
listas@e...> wrote:
> > I ran across a website that sells Roland Stika vinyl cutters
> > and "cutronics foil" for making pcb boards.
> > www.techsoftuk.co.uk
> > Check under software and "PCB design and make" for more info.
> > Futher googling found an upgrade kit to convert a dot matrix 
printer
> > to a vinyl cutter.
> > This may be more practical (cheaper) than the cnc route.
> > I'm going to check out the local sign shops to see if they would 
use
> > the cutronics foil. Or maybe look ing converting a plotter to cut
> > the foil.
> > Note: I have no vested interest with either Techsoft of Roland, 
but
> > it seems like a clever idea.
> 
>     You can use even normal vinyl for that, but forget something 
less than 40
> mils wide. I have one here, and the results are not so good. Stick 
to thermal

> transfer instead.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 6/4/2005

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> Steve has said a while back he tried a cutter, but i wasn't
impressed with  
> the result ;-)

I used some very old sign vinyl with a very old blade, it was heck on
wheels weeding it. 

Since then I got a new blade and new sign vinyl, have not tried it
with the new stuff.

There are pictures in the Files section. In any case, I would not
expect to cut and weed the holes.

Steve Greenfield

mycroft2152 wrote:

> ... And how narrow a trace does a home brewer really need?

Likely depends on how fine a SMT pitch you can hand fab.
For me that is 0.5mm with 0.3/0.4mm being reserved for the
voodoo artists.

Working with the assumption here of 0.5mm, if you want to
route 45D traces and avoid angular creep you will need a
trace width/space of 7mils which is in general acceptable
by most prototype fabs.

-- 
uhmgawa@...        www.gnu.org

Hi,


It doesn't spray very well and i don't know why ;-(

What do you think, how can i go about making it work well?

I can spin the tube at 10000RPM+ without any fear of things flying apart.
It is hard to see where the drops impact, but it doesn't look like it is  
enough.

How can i better see where the water is spraying and in which amounts?
I am reluctant to fill it with etchant and try, because a change to the  
sprayer tube with etchant in it requires a careful cleaning each time i  
want to make any changes.

ST

In a message dated 4/10/2005 4:56:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
stefan_trethan@... writes:

How can  i better see where the water is spraying and in which amounts?
I am  reluctant to fill it with etchant and try, because a change to the   
sprayer tube with etchant in it requires a careful cleaning each time  i  
want to make any  changes.

ST




Add food coloring to the water. Simple, easy to clean up  and if you place a 
light behind it you can see the spray pattern.
 
Ray Russell
NMRA-40609
General Contractor
Norfolk &  Western Railroad
Pocahontas Division
Circa 1958
Visit The "NEW"  Pocahontas Website at:_ Click here: N  & W Pocahontas  
Division_ (http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html) 
http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html

OR_ Click here:  Pocahontas Home_ 
(http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm)  
For the old website!  
http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:39:02 EDT, <rruss45826@...> wrote:

>
> Add food coloring to the water. Simple, easy to clean up  and if you  
> place a
> light behind it you can see the spray pattern.
> Ray Russell


will try..

Now if i only had food coloring at hand....


ST

In a message dated 4/10/2005 7:42:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
stefan_trethan@... writes:

Now if i  only had food coloring at hand....


ST



Non sugar cool aid?? LOL
 
Ray Russell
NMRA-40609
General Contractor
Norfolk &  Western Railroad
Pocahontas Division
Circa 1958
Visit The "NEW"  Pocahontas Website at:_ Click here: N  & W Pocahontas  
Division_ (http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html) 
http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html

OR_ Click here:  Pocahontas Home_ 
(http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm)  
For the old website!  
http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:01:28 EDT, <rruss45826@...> wrote:

>
> Non sugar cool aid?? LOL
> Ray Russell


???

ok, after the initial frustration with the sprayer i want to analyze the  
process in a more scientific manner.


Let's revisit how it works. The water enters through holes in the bottom  
plate of the tube, the centrifugal force presses it outward and up the  
tube and out the holes.

Important parameters:
Tube diameter and RPM, obviously influence amount of water and pressure  
etc. let's assume we keep that constant at 50mm and 10kRPM.

Holes in bottom of tube, number, size, residual "ring" between holes and  
inner tube wall (only in this ring there can be water, it would flow out  
through the hole if there is more in the tube)
Currently i use 4 9mm holes with about 5mm space between outside edge  
holes and tube inner wall.

Holes in side of tube. currently i use 90 1.5mm holes spaced 2mm apart in  
a spiral pattern.


What needs to be determined:
Ideal size of holes in bottom plate (this determines the remaining ring)
Ideal size and number of holes in tube wall.

That aren't very many parameters, there should really be a way to find  
them.
I believe the inlet side is of some importance, as the commercial sprayers  
use a plate with 3 holes in it.
I do not understand why they use 3 holes and not a bigger central hole, as  
they do not have a shaft through the middle as i have.
Any ideas why that might be?
There must be a max. flowrate a inlet plate can let through, and this will  
limit the number and size of sprayer holes i assume.

I got my hands on some more empty silicone syringes, so i can make a few  
experiments. But ideally i would experiment in a way that starts with the  
smallest holes and ends with the biggest, 'cause i don't have that many...


Also, i have a severe vortex in the tank (heck it is the wildest wildwater  
i have ever seen, there are ocean breakers created in there!!) Of course  
stupid as i am i have not fitted the vanes to reduce that, so now i must  
fiddle them in place through tiny access holes, which of course i have  
made just too small for my hand. (can a single person really be that  
stupid??).


Oh well, if anyone of you has ideas how to systematically experiment to  
find the ideal values for the holes, or how to make the inlet better, i'm  
all ears.

thanks

ST

> Now if i only had food coloring at hand....

    Spherographic pen ink? Inkjet ink?



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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 7/4/2005

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:30:31 -0300, Alexandre Souza  
<alexandre-listas@...> wrote:

>
>> Now if i only had food coloring at hand....
>    Spherographic pen ink? Inkjet ink?


I do not want too much of a mess.
When looking at the drops on the inside of the glass one can see how much  
they change and if there are areas where they change less.
I am not so sure color would make things easier to see (because you can  
never see the drops flying at 10000RPM anyway).

I have more or less given up on the idea of color. As soon as i am  
confident all areas of the glass plate are impacted by drops i will try  
etchant where i will see which areas will etch first.


I think maybe it would be good to implement some kind of centrifugal pump  
in the bottom end of the tube. If i make vanes at the bottom, they will  
throw the water outward. If i have a ring preventing it from going out the  
bottom again it must go upward. Im not sure if it would be better to have  
straight vanes or if it would be better to have them at an angle...
It doesn't seem most efficient to me to have a smooth tube.

ST

>
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:30:31 -0300, Alexandre Souza
> <alexandre-listas@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Now if i only had food coloring at hand....
>>    Spherographic pen ink? Inkjet ink?
>
>
> I do not want too much of a mess.
> When looking at the drops on the inside of the glass one can see how much
> they change and if there are areas where they change less.
> I am not so sure color would make things easier to see (because you can
> never see the drops flying at 10000RPM anyway).

What about a strobe light? If you can syncronize it to the rotation of the
tube at some lower frequency it should make individual droplets more
visible.   Kind of like a timing light used to adjust spark on an engine. 
Just make sure you don't let anyone who has Epilepsy anywhere near when
you are testing it.

Ed Okerson

SUCCESS!!

i glued a small "fan" or pump wheel into the bottom, with angeled vanes.
MUCH more spray at MUCH lower RPM.

I think that is the right way to go.

ST








> What about a strobe light? If you can syncronize it to the rotation of  
> the
> tube at some lower frequency it should make individual droplets more
> visible.   Kind of like a timing light used to adjust spark on an engine.
> Just make sure you don't let anyone who has Epilepsy anywhere near when
> you are testing it.
>
> Ed Okerson


Thanks, had thought about it, too complicated.

Hi

despite the much better result i still don't get a uniform spray coverage.
(i have spaced the holes 2mm and have "streaks" as far as 12mm apart  
(which is the pitch of the spiral).)
i don't know why it is so uneven.
My guess is there is not enough water inside the tube, and it is thrown to  
one side because it is slightly out of round.
maybe it would be better after all to use a line of holes not a spiral....

However, i have worked out a method to find all parameters:
The fan in the bottom is going to stay, so i only have to determine the  
ideal "ring" on the bottom of the tube restraining the liquid from running  
back out. to see which width is ideal i have cut several rings of thin  
plastic (use hole-cutter in drill press, run reverse for thin plastic). I  
will drill a row of relatively big holes (like 3mm) in the tube, and then  
try the different rings (hot-melt glue is ideal for quick tests). The  
ideal ring width will be indicated by the most/highest holes still  
delivering water.
Additionally this will show me how much cross section of hole the sprayer  
can deliver flow for, and i can then make the small spray holes with a  
total cross section area lower than that value.
Well, that is the theory anyway... ;-)

ST



On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:10:25 +0200, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>  
wrote:

> SUCCESS!!
> i glued a small "fan" or pump wheel into the bottom, with angeled vanes.
> MUCH more spray at MUCH lower RPM.
> I think that is the right way to go.
> ST