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Advice for Newbie

Advice for Newbie

2002-06-16 by brianjhoskins

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this group. I have quite an extensive Electronics
backround behind me, and I do alot of my own self-designed projects
at home. I'm starting to get tired of stripboard now, it's ok and it
does the job, but as I'm sure you're all aware, as soon as you start
trying to make compact designs or particularly large circuits, or
even if you just want to duplicate an old one, StripBoard becomes a
real pain.

I'm currently looking into getting hold of some PCB developing
equipment for my home workshop, and I have around £500 (max) to
spend. The only trouble is, there are many different types at
different prices, and since I've never used any of them before I
don't know how the performance of one compares to another, and infact
I have no idea what performance to expect at all from a home
developer! Do they ever come out like proper PCBs?

Obviously I'm hoping to spend as little as possible, but that said
I'd rather spend the full £500 and know that I've got a good quality
piece of equipment that produces good PCBs, than spend less money and
have a rubbish piece of equipment. Can any of you advise me on what
the difference is between the different types of developers, and what
their advantages/disadvantages are, and how much I should expect to
pay? Also, what is the quality like on the finished boards, in
comparison to a production PCB?

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Brian.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Advice for Newbie

2002-06-16 by Hans Wedemeyer

Brian,
When you say a "system" does that mean full blown... i.e. multilayer,
through hole plated
via's and silk screen printing ?

If you just want to make two sided prototype boards then you can get
started for just a
few $'s or £'s

This list is not complete and I feel sure other people will have
something to say about
it...

Program to draw schematic and PCB layout ( I recommend EAGLE they have
a fully
functional free version)
Printer to make transparencies. I use LaserJet but InkJet is also fine.
(Expect to get lines
down to 5-8 mil with experience! )
Positive Pre-sensitized PCB board. You can buy something like
"Positve60" and
prepare/sensitize the boards yourself.
UV Lamp. A garden Grow lamp does work, even if some people say it does
not. With a
100W lamp at 6 inches give about 1 minute exposure.
I find it handy to have a sheet of glass (rob it from a picture frame is
a good source !) to
tape the transparency and PCB for exposure.
Lye (caustic soda from the grocery store ) to develop the exposed PCB
about 10 grams
to a pint is a good starting point and a tray to develop it in.
Tupperware works fine. No
need to heat the lye as some people seem to think.
Ferric chloride and plastic tank to hold it (Tupperware cereal container
work fine) I like
to suspend the board while etching, it's easier to control. I simply
drill two holes and use
some plastic covered wire to hang it in the tank, and agitate by dunking
(don't splash it
will eat the stainless sink !)
No need to work in a darkroom, just a subdued lighting is OK, 100W bulb
is fine. Direct
sunlight is BAD...
Drill and drill bits. I recommend carbide drills they last longer when
drilling glass fiber
board.
For via connections I use the Harwin pins ( made in the UK ) and
eyelet's. Where a
connection has a component solder top and bottom, and for IC sockets,
use the
machined kind that allow soldering top and bottom.
You should consider some kind of plating to stop the copper tarnishing,
I use CoolAmp
silver plating powder, it's expensive but it work real good... and 1/4lb
costs $40 and last
a long long time...
I should thin you can buy the whole kit can be done for $100-125 that is
if you use a
shareware or free version of the PCB layout program..
Here is a link to an old prototype board I made some time ago, and and
another link to
what I doing at the moment

http://hans-w.com/Old_Ursa_ProtoType.jpg silver plated using CoolAmp
powder..

http://hans-w.com/past_3_weeks.jpg all silver plated with CoolAmp...

I've been making boards since about 1975 .... Still have not found a
"good" system for
through hole plating via connections.

Link to EAGLE site http://www.cadsoftusa.com
Link to a UK site for info on making PCB...
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/pcbs.html He goes a little overbaord on
some things !

Hans W

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Advice for Newbie

2002-06-16 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

Brian:

Here's ONE ignernt Yank's experience for you to confuse among other good
info: The first-ever home-brew PCB's I ever did were done by "painting" the
pattern with colored lacquer (discarded ladies' fingernail polish was fine
for this!), and/or the use of good cellophane tape put on the "blank" copper,
then trimmed to shape with an Xacto-knife (the kind of "hobby knoves" with
razor-sharp disposable/replaceable blades of many shapes), and then etching
with (here) readily-available Ferric Chloride solution. Nasty, staining,
yellow stuff.

I once bought some photosensitive spray with which one coats the blank copper
like painting, letting that dry in darkness, and then exposing that using a
1:1 negative film contact-clamped to the sensitized board. I have also tried
some "store bought" sensitized board, but it works no better, and is far more
expensive per sq.cm. This makes for a "photographically correct" pattern,
but it is MY contention that electrons moving through copper on a copper-clad
epoxy board have NO clue of this, and have no perceptible preference, so it
is a "user's choice" kind of thing, isn't it!

Lately, world-wide Radio Shack (no, NOT "RS" which you have over there!) has
been selling "etch-resist felt-tip pens" (similar to a "Sharpie" by Magic
Marker, or is it Sanford?). If you are skilled, you can "draw" a pattern
with that, being sure go "go back over" those spots where SOME copper
glistens through the black pattern a bit (i.e., that is NOT strongly opaque
stuff, no!). You can do this for maybe two or three smallish boards within a
fortnight, provided you do each within a half hour or less, and always
TIGHTLY close the pen when done, each time. After that, evaporation will
FINISH the usefulness of the things! No, NOT an exaggeration! ("Creative
Marketing"??

Recently, a gentleman in a local metalworkers' club of which I am member
showed the group some "Permapressed" or whatever he was calling it, a blue
film-like stuff that can be used in conjunction with a laser-printer. I
wasn't TOO interested after I realized he was saying one MUST do the art on
computer, then PRINT it using a laser printer, and this film he showed,
somehow. BUT, it DID make a "perfect" pattern on the copper, which etched
totally pin-hole free, etc. I do not, therefore, recall the name of the
source of the material.

Here, there is a firm by name of Kepro (where? I never remember. Try a
Google search, etc.?) which sells most of these kinds of materials.

There is also ammonium persulfate, which is white delequescent crystals
which, when dissolved in tap-water, will etch copper, and is not as "nasty"
as the yellow ferric chloride, but I have no clue how it compares in price
per liter of ready solution, speed of etch at whatever temperature, need to
dispose of the waste in a gopher-hole, or a tributary of the Volga, or what.


Another thing in this regard: IF you drill holes with a "drill press", you
must ETCH the board first, and then drill the pads on-center, etc. If you
have an X-Y drill under "PC" control (see mine in "Photos" on the Group's
site), you have to drill the board first, then "do the art", registering
carefully over the holes. With care and practice, I much prefer this latter
technique. It is much faster and more precise, and "repeatable", at least
where the HOLES are located!

Feel free to e-mail me direct, if you wish. Ideally, a non-multilayer board
has plated-through holes and good TIN/LEAD "solder-coat". PTH is virtually
unheard of for "home brew". Would, at least, require quite a setup to
effect! I once had some ivory-colored solute from Kepro which was to do
electroless tin-plating, and that DID "brighten" and "silver-color" the
bright pink copper, once etched, but the thickness of the electroless tin was
so thin that it did nothing much to increase "solderability" (the reason a
thicker tin or "solder-plating" will aid solderability requires too much
space to explain here). I know a firm in Suffolk that uses square metres of
PCB's per month, and at least a decade back, if not still, they found it more
economical to have girls inserting solderable rivets by the tens of thousands
in holes which then got a Through Lead (resistor or diode), and were soldered
on both sides, rather than PTH, soldering with a wave-soldering machine. I
never had opportunity to discuss why with any of them, and the proprietor of
the firm married his new helicopter he had just learned to fly (not terribly
well, it seems) to the earth, on his way home from London, one fine
afternoon. With that, I had little contact with any of them, any longer, so
by now, perhaps they are using PTH boards exclusively. Do not know.

Regards! Jan Rowland, Yank Troll

Re: Advice for Newbie

2002-06-17 by twb8899

Brian and the group,

I spent over twenty years in the circuit board business and probably
tried every method that came along. The most difficult part for the
hobby board producer seems to be good artwork generation and etching.
With this in mind you might want to spend some of your money on a
used process camera for making negatives.

Most circuit board films are now made with photoplotters and this has
put many of these cameras on the used equipment market not to mention
the ones that were thrown in the dump. If you print your designs with
a laser or inkjet printer at 2:1 scale and photograph it at 50% on
the camera a very accurate film negative can be produced. A film made
this way will not have the print density problems that arise when
trying to expose through paper artwork from printers and plotters.

Dry film photoresist is one of the best ways to sensitize the copper
panel. This film is put on the panel with a roll laminator but I have
had excellent results by gently laying it on the clean copper surface
and using a clothes iron to heat the resist for proper adhesion to
the copper. A small glass contact printing frame can be purchased at
most camera or photographic supply stores. This contact frame will
give the proper contact between the negative film and the photo
resist. A sunlamp works good as a UV exposure source.

Developing of the exposed resist can be performed in a small tray of
1% sodium carbonate (soda ash). I have also used Tide laundry soap as
a developer but it seems to take a bit longer.

Ferric chloride is a good etchant for hobby boards. It will last for
a long time and can be used in a tray, bubble, or spray etcher.
Other etchants are available but many of them have a limited tank
life. Ferric chloride does not have this problem and is stable for a
long time, just heat it up and start etching.

A small high speed drill press with carbide bits will do a good job
for making the holes. KBC Toools sells a small drill press like this
for less than $150. I have one of these and I like it much better
than any of the Dremel drills. The Dremel Tool drills have way too
much spindle runout and their drill press stand is very flimsy.

I only make circuit boards for the instruments that I produce and no
longer make boards as a merchant shop. When I got out of the
commercial business I kept just enough equipment to perform the
processes discussed in this message.

The following equipment is what I'm using for my board production:

CAD system
Photoplotter
Vertical camera
Template (stylus) drills
Pin router
Small spray etcher
Various silk screening equipment

Some of this equipment can be built in the home shop or picked up at
auctions or on eBay.

Concerning photoplotters, I saw a table top photoplotter just like
the one I use on eBay. This was about a year ago and it never got one
bid! This unit could have been picked up for less than $500 and it
would have been a bargain. This type of plotter makes the whole
process very easy so it would be a wise move to latch onto one of
these units.

If anyone is interested, I would be willing to make photo plots for a
nominal price. The plot data would have to be supplied as a Gerber
plot file with aperture list or file. The films would be made on
Kodak 7 Mil film with a negative or positive image. Email me off list
if there is any interest in this.

Tom

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Advice for Newbie

2002-06-17 by BrianJHoskins

Hi,

Firstly, thanks everyone for all your advice. I'm still a little in the
dark, but I'll look into it and if I'm still puzzled I'll come back to you
all.

I've just been on Ebay Tom, and there is no PCB equipment on sale at the
mo, but I'll keep an eye on that. Maybe I should go for an international
search rather than just a UK search.
I might take you up on that offer of a PCB board, if for nothing else to
get an idea for what quality to expect from the type of equipment you
have. I haven't finished the design of my latest project yet, but when I
do I'll contact you and maybe we can talk prices, what you'll need from me
in terms of the PCB design etc. I'm sure that in this modern day the cost
for sending a small PCB board across the atlantic wont work out too
expensive.

So yeah, thanks everyone you've been a great help - thanks alot for your
time!!!







----
Brian Hoskins
South Wales, UK

Email: BrianJHoskins@...
----

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Advice for Newbie

2002-06-18 by Adam Seychell

Tom, thanks for your input.
I have been playing around with the dry film lately. It is definitely
the a lot better than spraying liquid resists and cheaper than pre
coated boards. I can explain some of my experiences. The dry film is
typically sold in 500 ft rolls form the distributors. Price in Australia
is AU$600 for a box of two 150 meter x 300mm (500 ft x 12") rolls. This
is standard package size since laminating is almost always done double
sided. Ok, I realize this is way beyond any hobbyist budget. The way to
obtain small quantities of dry film is to contact your nearest PCB
fabricator and ask them to save 10 or 20 meters or so left on the roll
when its time to replace a new roll on the laminating machine. If they
are not too busy they should be willing to do this for a small charge. I
found the largish PCB shops did not want to be bothered as much as the
smaller shops. If you can obtain a used roll then your in business.

* How to apply dry film without using a $500+ dry film laminator
filling half your home workshop.

The dry film is normally applied with hot roll lamination. The hot roll
melts the dry film and applies it to the copper surface by pressure from
the roll. This melts the dry film into any irregularities on the copper
and forces air out of the way by the rolling action. The result should
be a smooth and strong adherent bond without trapped air. This is tricky
to do without the proper equipment. I've heard people using office pouch
hot roll laminators which tend to be expensive items also. The ordinary
house cloths iron was almost impossible to get on neatly and wrinkle
free. The best method I have found to date is to use cold wet
lamination. All that is required is an electric oven capable of 80-90°C
and a rubber ink roller available from art supplies. This is basically a
smooth rubber roller molded to a steel shaft with two bushes at each
ends. The roller is held by a wooded handle perpendicular to the roller.
Ink rollers are perfect because they are very smooth and accurate.

The PCB is first cleaned as normal so it wets with acidic water. You
should etch the copper in etchant for about 2~5% of time it normally
takes to etch copper completely away. This leaves the surface slightly
rough for good adhesion of the resist (at least that's what the experts
say). Rinse the board with tap water well, but do not re-apply soap or
any alkaline solutions since the copper surface cannot be allowed to
have any alkaline residues (at least that's what the experts say).
Ideally you should finish off with a quick rinse of deionized water.
With the board wet lay it down on the bench with the side to laminate
facing up. Carefully remove the polyethylene protective cover off the
dry film and hold the dry film at one edge with your finger tips. Lay
down the bottom end of the film at one edge of the PCB. Using your other
hand grab the rubber roller and carefully roll down the film over the
PCB using much pressure as possible. You only get one shot at it ! The
film should be smooth, flat and have no visible signs of bubbles or
foreign particles. Ok, the film is on.

Next you must heat the board to about 80°C - 90°C for 5 minutes or
longer. This fuses the film into the copper. An electric fan forced
cooking oven is perfect for this.

Expose and develop the dry film as normal.

After developing you should bake the board once again to make sure all
water is driven off from within the film. I found this necessary when
electroplating the PCB as some spots in the dry film would not
completely block plating and would deposit some tin under the resist. I
think for normal etching this will be less critical. The post bake
guarantees the film is adhered and acting as a good resists.

Using this method to apply film seems to give results good as hot roll
laminating but without the expensive equipment.







twb8899 wrote:

>Brian and the group,
>
>I spent over twenty years in the circuit board business and probably
>tried every method that came along. The most difficult part for the
>hobby board producer seems to be good artwork generation and etching.
>With this in mind you might want to spend some of your money on a
>used process camera for making negatives.
>
>Most circuit board films are now made with photoplotters and this has
>put many of these cameras on the used equipment market not to mention
>the ones that were thrown in the dump. If you print your designs with
>a laser or inkjet printer at 2:1 scale and photograph it at 50% on
>the camera a very accurate film negative can be produced. A film made
>this way will not have the print density problems that arise when
>trying to expose through paper artwork from printers and plotters.
>
>Dry film photoresist is one of the best ways to sensitize the copper
>panel. This film is put on the panel with a roll laminator but I have
>had excellent results by gently laying it on the clean copper surface
>and using a clothes iron to heat the resist for proper adhesion to
>the copper. A small glass contact printing frame can be purchased at
>most camera or photographic supply stores. This contact frame will
>give the proper contact between the negative film and the photo
>resist. A sunlamp works good as a UV exposure source.
>
>Developing of the exposed resist can be performed in a small tray of
>1% sodium carbonate (soda ash). I have also used Tide laundry soap as
>a developer but it seems to take a bit longer.
>
>Ferric chloride is a good etchant for hobby boards. It will last for
>a long time and can be used in a tray, bubble, or spray etcher.
>Other etchants are available but many of them have a limited tank
>life. Ferric chloride does not have this problem and is stable for a
>long time, just heat it up and start etching.
>
>A small high speed drill press with carbide bits will do a good job
>for making the holes. KBC Toools sells a small drill press like this
>for less than $150. I have one of these and I like it much better
>than any of the Dremel drills. The Dremel Tool drills have way too
>much spindle runout and their drill press stand is very flimsy.
>
>I only make circuit boards for the instruments that I produce and no
>longer make boards as a merchant shop. When I got out of the
>commercial business I kept just enough equipment to perform the
>processes discussed in this message.
>
>The following equipment is what I'm using for my board production:
>
>CAD system
>Photoplotter
>Vertical camera
>Template (stylus) drills
>Pin router
>Small spray etcher
>Various silk screening equipment
>
>Some of this equipment can be built in the home shop or picked up at
>auctions or on eBay.
>
>Concerning photoplotters, I saw a table top photoplotter just like
>the one I use on eBay. This was about a year ago and it never got one
>bid! This unit could have been picked up for less than $500 and it
>would have been a bargain. This type of plotter makes the whole
>process very easy so it would be a wise move to latch onto one of
>these units.
>
>If anyone is interested, I would be willing to make photo plots for a
>nominal price. The plot data would have to be supplied as a Gerber
>plot file with aperture list or file. The films would be made on
>Kodak 7 Mil film with a negative or positive image. Email me off list
>if there is any interest in this.
>
>Tom
>
>
>

Re: Advice for Newbie

2002-06-18 by twb8899

Adam,

You are correct about using the iron and wrinkles. I didn't go into
much detail on the process. I lay down the dry film like you
suggested and then put the panel in a nylon turkey bag. Then I use a
small vacuum pump to evacuate the air and iron it down. There are no
wrinkles and its easy to do. Another way is to lay down the dryfilm
on a panel and then run it through the heated roller from an old copy
machine or pouch laminator as you suggested.

Your comments about cleaning the board are absolutely correct as any
oils or finger prints will mess up the adhesion of the dryfilm.

I do have a roll laminator but rarely use it because anything past a
prototype I just silkscreen. You will waste 5 or 6 feet of dryfilm
just getting the laminator "fired up". The dry film I have on my roll
laminator is called KOLON and is made in Korea. It cost approximately
$0.25 per square foot. The best resist I have used is DuPont 4715
which was around $0.38 per square foot last time I ordered. I keep
these rolls refrigerated to extend the shelf life.

Here is something else to consider, there is a liquid resist made by
Peters in Germany. You just mask off an area on a blank silk screen
and print the entire blank board. The blank panel is then dried in an
oven at about 180 degrees F for 20 or so minutes. It dries with no
pin holes and any small dents or imperfections are covered.

All other processing and development is the same as dryfilm. I used
this resist to process inner layers on multilayer boards and it
worked even better than dry film but the cost was higher. We had
almost zero defects when using this method so it was worth the added
cost.

This type of resist would do an excellent job on hobby boards if you
want to get the silk screening equipment for coating the panels. You
can coat a batch of panels and store them for future use. The silk
screening equipment can be used to print equipment panels as well and
is a good thing to have around.

Tom

Re: Advice for Newbie

2003-01-11 by gmfoster2000 <garry.foster@verizon.net>

Steve

Have you thought about starting a dbase list. It would be good to
have Toms offer where it was easily found.

Garry


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "twb8899" <twb8899@y...> wrote:
> Brian and the group,
>
> I spent over twenty years in the circuit board business and
probably
> tried every method that came along. The most difficult part for the
> hobby board producer seems to be good artwork generation and
etching.
> With this in mind you might want to spend some of your money on a
> used process camera for making negatives.
>
> Most circuit board films are now made with photoplotters and this
has
> put many of these cameras on the used equipment market not to
mention
> the ones that were thrown in the dump. If you print your designs
with
> a laser or inkjet printer at 2:1 scale and photograph it at 50% on
> the camera a very accurate film negative can be produced. A film
made
> this way will not have the print density problems that arise when
> trying to expose through paper artwork from printers and plotters.
>
> Dry film photoresist is one of the best ways to sensitize the
copper
> panel. This film is put on the panel with a roll laminator but I
have
> had excellent results by gently laying it on the clean copper
surface
> and using a clothes iron to heat the resist for proper adhesion to
> the copper. A small glass contact printing frame can be purchased
at
> most camera or photographic supply stores. This contact frame will
> give the proper contact between the negative film and the photo
> resist. A sunlamp works good as a UV exposure source.
>
> Developing of the exposed resist can be performed in a small tray
of
> 1% sodium carbonate (soda ash). I have also used Tide laundry soap
as
> a developer but it seems to take a bit longer.
>
> Ferric chloride is a good etchant for hobby boards. It will last
for
> a long time and can be used in a tray, bubble, or spray etcher.
> Other etchants are available but many of them have a limited tank
> life. Ferric chloride does not have this problem and is stable for
a
> long time, just heat it up and start etching.
>
> A small high speed drill press with carbide bits will do a good job
> for making the holes. KBC Toools sells a small drill press like
this
> for less than $150. I have one of these and I like it much better
> than any of the Dremel drills. The Dremel Tool drills have way too
> much spindle runout and their drill press stand is very flimsy.
>
> I only make circuit boards for the instruments that I produce and
no
> longer make boards as a merchant shop. When I got out of the
> commercial business I kept just enough equipment to perform the
> processes discussed in this message.
>
> The following equipment is what I'm using for my board production:
>
> CAD system
> Photoplotter
> Vertical camera
> Template (stylus) drills
> Pin router
> Small spray etcher
> Various silk screening equipment
>
> Some of this equipment can be built in the home shop or picked up
at
> auctions or on eBay.
>
> Concerning photoplotters, I saw a table top photoplotter just like
> the one I use on eBay. This was about a year ago and it never got
one
> bid! This unit could have been picked up for less than $500 and it
> would have been a bargain. This type of plotter makes the whole
> process very easy so it would be a wise move to latch onto one of
> these units.
>
> If anyone is interested, I would be willing to make photo plots for
a
> nominal price. The plot data would have to be supplied as a Gerber
> plot file with aperture list or file. The films would be made on
> Kodak 7 Mil film with a negative or positive image. Email me off
list
> if there is any interest in this.
>
> Tom