Homebrew PCBs

I am trying to get more information on using photographic techniques
for making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do
with toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find
information about printing to transparency and then using some kind of
image reduction.
From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be used
for image reduction, but no real solid information.
Does anyone have suggestions on where I could look for more
information on this technique.

Why mess around?  It's very inexpensive to take you 4X (or whatever ...)
artwork to a photo studio and instruct them to reduce to your required
size film.  You want the emulsion (dull) side to face the copper ... and
you likely want to provide positive rather than negative artwork,
depending on your process.  Talk to the photographer and show him
samples of a finished board and your artwork ... he'll explain the rest.
The same thing for silk-screens, only take the film to the screen house.

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

-----Original Message----- From: javaguy11111
[mailto:javaguy11111@...] 

I am trying to get more information on using photographic techniques for
making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do with
toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find information
about printing to transparency and then using some kind of image
reduction. From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be used for
image reduction, but no real solid information. Does anyone have
suggestions on where I could look for more information on this
technique.


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javaguy11111 wrote:
> 
> I am trying to get more information on using photographic techniques
> for making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do
> with toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find
> information about printing to transparency and then using some kind of
> image reduction.
>>From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
> enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be used
> for image reduction, but no real solid information.
> Does anyone have suggestions on where I could look for more
> information on this technique.

I can do 8mil traces perfectly using a 720dpi epson stylus color
inkjet printer with the genuine film and ink, and uv lightbox.
No need for enlarging or reduction.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:27 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Photographic techniques


>
>
> I am trying to get more information on using photographic techniques
> for making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do
> with toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find
> information about printing to transparency and then using some kind of
> image reduction.
> From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
> enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be used
> for image reduction, but no real solid information.
> Does anyone have suggestions on where I could look for more
> information on this technique.

Try printing onto tracing paper; that's what I do and it works very well. 
You can buy special film that gives better results (LaserStar from Mega 
Electronics) but it's expensive.

Leon 



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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Hello javaguy11111,

  Friday, January 21, 2005, 3:27:32 AM, you wrote:



j> I am trying to get more information on using photographic techniques
j> for making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do
j> with toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find
j> information about printing to transparency and then using some kind of
j> image reduction.
>>From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
j> enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be used
j> for image reduction, but no real solid information.
j> Does anyone have suggestions on where I could look for more
j> information on this technique.



  Why bother with photo reduction? Laser printers are, sometimes, quite inacurate lengthwise. If you can, print your artwork through an postscript printer driver to file and take that to the printh shop with typeseting (photo plotter) machine to produce a perfect film, since you are going to use the photo sensitized copper clad.

Bear in mind that the solder side of your artwork should not be mirrired, and if you are trying to produce doublesided board, component side must be mirrored.

All boards that I'm making myself are produced this way from 35x45 mm to 160x100 mm.

-- 
 Sincerely,
ø¤º°``````````````````````````````````````````````````````°º¤ø
ZAS ElMed                        | mailto:zasto@...
                                 | http://www.zas-elmed.co.yu
                                 | Tel/Fax: +381 11 344-0748
                                 | 
 Zoran A. Scepanovic             |     Mob: +381 63 609-993
º¤ø,¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸,¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸,ø¤º

*********
Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.
*********


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

After thinking about it, I think I should clarify what I mean by
limits. I do not mean limits of my patience. I have gotten great
results with the toner transfer technique. I have been able to get to
.4mm pin spacing. However that was a very tough board to get right
with toner transfer. I am looking for even better quality. Also my
interests lie in trying to get to dimensions even smaller than what
would normally be required for making most circuit boards. PCB's
traces would be the large end of the spectrum.

I was just hoping that maybe someone in this group had done boards by
this method and might be able to offer some pointers.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@d...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@y...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:27 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Photographic techniques
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > I am trying to get more information on using photographic
techniques
> > for making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do
> > with toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find
> > information about printing to transparency and then using some
kind of
> > image reduction.
> > From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
> > enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be
used
> > for image reduction, but no real solid information.
> > Does anyone have suggestions on where I could look for more
> > information on this technique.
> 
> Try printing onto tracing paper; that's what I do and it works very
well. 
> You can buy special film that gives better results (LaserStar from
Mega 
> Electronics) but it's expensive.
> 
> Leon 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date:
19/01/2005

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Photographic techniques


>
>
> After thinking about it, I think I should clarify what I mean by
> limits. I do not mean limits of my patience. I have gotten great
> results with the toner transfer technique. I have been able to get to
> .4mm pin spacing. However that was a very tough board to get right
> with toner transfer. I am looking for even better quality. Also my
> interests lie in trying to get to dimensions even smaller than what
> would normally be required for making most circuit boards. PCB's
> traces would be the large end of the spectrum.
>
> I was just hoping that maybe someone in this group had done boards by
> this method and might be able to offer some pointers.

As I said, I print onto tracing paper to create a transparency. Why don't 
you try it?

Leon 



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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005

Note the comment about the ink.  Photo inks have UV inhibitors to protect the colors in the ink.  They also happen to block transmission of UV.  Plain copier inks do not have these UV adsorbers and will not work as artwork for photoresist processes.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Russell Shaw 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Photographic techniques


  javaguy11111 wrote:
  > 
  > I am trying to get more information on using photographic techniques
  > for making PCB's. For me I am at the limit of what I can really do
  > with toner transfer and my 1200dpi printer. I am trying to find
  > information about printing to transparency and then using some kind of
  > image reduction.
  >>From what I can tell it looks like I would use a photographic
  > enlarger. I saw a few hints searching google that this could be used
  > for image reduction, but no real solid information.
  > Does anyone have suggestions on where I could look for more
  > information on this technique.

  I can do 8mil traces perfectly using a 720dpi epson stylus color
  inkjet printer with the genuine film and ink, and uv lightbox.
  No need for enlarging or reduction.


  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I posted my question to rec.photo.darkroom 

<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.photo.dar
kroom/browse_frm/thread/a6d46e2c0898a922/dd3065d29
e11bae4#dd3065d29e11bae4>


and towards the bottom of the page I received a very interesting
response.
So based on what was suggested, I would put the print at the bottom of
the enlarger and a photosensitized board where the negative would be.
Illuminate the print out and the the board will be exposed and the
image reduced. He mentions this using a process camera, but
it may be doable with photographic enlarger.

My next question, which I posted, was to ask if an lcd display could
be put in place. Of course this would require a photoresist that works
in the visible range. Not sure if that exists or not. If that is
feasible it would be possible to go directly from cad work directly to
exposing the board. If an appropriate jig is used it should be very
easy to do double sided boards as well. 

Initial alignment could be tricky as well, but should not need to be
altered once it is set.

I sense a lot of scepticism about my idea, but to me this sounds much
more promising and maybe even easier than even what I had originally
envisioned.

I guess time will tell.

Lets try that link again.

<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.photo.darkroom/browse_frm/thread/a6d46e2c0898a922/dd3065d29e11bae4#dd3065d29e11bae4>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" 
<javaguy11111@y...> wrote:
 
> I sense a lot of scepticism about my idea, but to me this sounds 
much
> more promising and maybe even easier than even what I had 
originally
> envisioned.
> 

Well what kind of resolution does your LCD/Display system have? I 
think to get better than 1200 dpi on your 4x5 board you are going to 
need display driver that supports atleast 6000x4800 pixels, and a 
LCD that can display them at a managable size. 

I have been developing photos in my home darkroom for 20 years or 
so, and I'm not really clear on how you plan to accurately focus 
when the board is in the negative carrier of a normal enlarger. I 
have always used a grain focuser when making prints, but you 
obviously cant do that if your trying to image onto the negative. 
Focus can be very fussy and easily affected by very slight 
movements. Removing the negative carrier usually requires me to 
refocus.

Good luck with your project.

I was able to find a darkroom class that will be offered in March in
my area. So I will sign up for that. It give me a good chance to
understand the techniques better and get a better idea of how
workable it will be.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "art_lammoglia"
<art_lammoglia@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" 
> <javaguy11111@y...> wrote:
>  
> > I sense a lot of scepticism about my idea, but to me this sounds 
> much
> > more promising and maybe even easier than even what I had 
> originally
> > envisioned.
> > 
> 
> Well what kind of resolution does your LCD/Display system have? I 
> think to get better than 1200 dpi on your 4x5 board you are going
to 

> need display driver that supports atleast 6000x4800 pixels, and a 
> LCD that can display them at a managable size. 
> 
> I have been developing photos in my home darkroom for 20 years or 
> so, and I'm not really clear on how you plan to accurately focus 
> when the board is in the negative carrier of a normal enlarger. I 
> have always used a grain focuser when making prints, but you 
> obviously cant do that if your trying to image onto the negative. 
> Focus can be very fussy and easily affected by very slight 
> movements. Removing the negative carrier usually requires me to 
> refocus.
> 
> Good luck with your project.

In article <csv0ik+ou4c@...>,
   art_lammoglia <art_lammoglia@...> wrote:

> Well what kind of resolution does your LCD/Display system have? I 
> think to get better than 1200 dpi on your 4x5 board you are going to 
> need display driver that supports atleast 6000x4800 pixels, and a 
> LCD that can display them at a managable size. 

But what's the display resolution got to do with it?

I don't know what you use but the package I use allows magnification of
any part of the board to allow detail work. I would expect to work on a
4x5 board filling the whole area of my 19" CRT running at 1280x1024 and go
further, such that a 14pin DIL package would occupy around 4" (in length)
on the display while I'm routing inter-pin tracks.

Stuart

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, lists 
<stuart.winsor.lists@d...> wrote:
> In article <csv0ik+ou4c@e...>,
>    art_lammoglia <art_lammoglia@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Well what kind of resolution does your LCD/Display system have? 
I 
> > think to get better than 1200 dpi on your 4x5 board you are 
going to 
> > need display driver that supports atleast 6000x4800 pixels, and 
a 
> > LCD that can display them at a managable size. 
> 
> But what's the display resolution got to do with it?
> 
> I don't know what you use but the package I use allows 
magnification of
> any part of the board to allow detail work. I would expect to work 
on a
> 4x5 board filling the whole area of my 19" CRT running at 
1280x1024 and go
> further, such that a 14pin DIL package would occupy around 4" (in 
length)
> on the display while I'm routing inter-pin tracks.
> 
> Stuart

I think you missed the original post. He wants to project the image 
from the LCD monitor onto a a photo resist PCB so he doesn't have to 
make a negative, and he wants to achieve better than 1200 DPI on the 
board. The largest he could do with the monitor you mention is a ~ 
1" board, not a 4x5 (assuming it would even work ofcourse).

In article <ct0c5b+shk2@...>,
   art_lammoglia <art_lammoglia@...> wrote:
> I think you missed the original post. He wants to project the image 
> from the LCD monitor


Really?

I saw this......

"........I am trying to find information about printing to transparency
and then using some kind of image reduction. From what I can tell it looks
like I would use a photographic enlarger........"





The suggestion of using the enlarger in reverse, effectively using it as a
camera is an interesting one but I'm not sure how well it would work in
practice - assuming one can get hold of a 4x5 enlarger.

It would probably work better to get hold of a 4x5 camera and photograph
your artwork and use the negative as your mask in the usual way.

(Yes I am aware that a 4x5 camera wouldn't produce a mask that would cover
a 4x5 board but neither would an enlarger)

Stuart.