Homebrew_PCBs

Hi Listies,

I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this last weekend.
Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty dust! John,
how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic for testing,
but ran out.

And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board is OK for the
circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL nearly as
fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but maybe I'll try
to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!

Alan KM6VV

Hi Alan,
I put a wall of masking tape around the edge of the
PVC bed. This keeps the dust from vibrating off the bed into
the leadscrews. Since I went back to 16,000 RPMs the dust
is not so bad. The best fix is to put 5 drops of motor oil
on the board. Spread it around with your fingers. This will
cut down most of the dust. Then wash the board with dawn
dish detergent. If you think that dust is bad,try sanding,
cutting and shaping MDF wood. Then some PVC! I have it
everywhere!

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi Listies,
>
> I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this last
weekend.
> Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty dust!
John,
> how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic for
testing,
> but ran out.
>
> And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board is OK
for the
> circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL nearly
as
> fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but maybe I'll
try
> to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!
>
> Alan KM6VV

Hi John,

I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to keep brass
and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside the mill
in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some blew
around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!

What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH cleaner, and
nicer on endmills!

I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep THIS dust
down.

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Hi Alan,
> I put a wall of masking tape around the edge of the
> PVC bed. This keeps the dust from vibrating off the bed into
> the leadscrews. Since I went back to 16,000 RPMs the dust
> is not so bad. The best fix is to put 5 drops of motor oil
> on the board. Spread it around with your fingers. This will
> cut down most of the dust. Then wash the board with dawn
> dish detergent. If you think that dust is bad,try sanding,
> cutting and shaping MDF wood. Then some PVC! I have it
> everywhere!
>
> John
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi Listies,
> >
> > I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this last
> weekend.
> > Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty dust!
> John,
> > how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic for
> testing,
> > but ran out.
> >
> > And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board is OK
> for the
> > circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL nearly
> as
> > fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but maybe I'll
> try
> > to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!
> >
> > Alan KM6VV

Hi Alan,
The board I am using costs $2 for a 4" X 6". I suspect
there is a better board out there. The board I use is a light
brown color.

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to keep
brass
> and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside the
mill
> in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some blew
> around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!
>
> What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH
cleaner, and
> nicer on endmills!
>
> I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep THIS
dust
> down.
>
> Alan KM6VV
>
>
> crankorgan wrote:
> >
> > Hi Alan,
> > I put a wall of masking tape around the edge of the
> > PVC bed. This keeps the dust from vibrating off the bed into
> > the leadscrews. Since I went back to 16,000 RPMs the dust
> > is not so bad. The best fix is to put 5 drops of motor oil
> > on the board. Spread it around with your fingers. This will
> > cut down most of the dust. Then wash the board with dawn
> > dish detergent. If you think that dust is bad,try sanding,
> > cutting and shaping MDF wood. Then some PVC! I have it
> > everywhere!
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
wrote:
> > > Hi Listies,
> > >
> > > I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this last
> > weekend.
> > > Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty dust!
> > John,
> > > how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic for
> > testing,
> > > but ran out.
> > >
> > > And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board is OK
> > for the
> > > circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL
nearly
> > as
> > > fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but maybe
I'll
> > try
> > > to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!
> > >
> > > Alan KM6VV

Hi John,

Light brown? On the un-clad side? Is it G10? Can you see the glass
strands, looks like a weave when you machine it? I can get single or
double sided board here for $0.02 (two cents) a sq in. That would be
$0.48 for the board you mention. Looks a little GREEN after you machine
(or etch) the copper off. Phenolic is BROWN. Chips are slightly
yellow-ish. I believe FR4 is blue?

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Hi Alan,
> The board I am using costs $2 for a 4" X 6". I suspect
> there is a better board out there. The board I use is a light
> brown color.
>
> John
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to keep
> brass
> > and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside the
> mill
> > in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some blew
> > around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!
> >
> > What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH
> cleaner, and
> > nicer on endmills!
> >
> > I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep THIS
> dust
> > down.
> >
> > Alan KM6VV
> >
> >
> > crankorgan wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Alan,
> > > I put a wall of masking tape around the edge of the
> > > PVC bed. This keeps the dust from vibrating off the bed into
> > > the leadscrews. Since I went back to 16,000 RPMs the dust
> > > is not so bad. The best fix is to put 5 drops of motor oil
> > > on the board. Spread it around with your fingers. This will
> > > cut down most of the dust. Then wash the board with dawn
> > > dish detergent. If you think that dust is bad,try sanding,
> > > cutting and shaping MDF wood. Then some PVC! I have it
> > > everywhere!
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
> wrote:
> > > > Hi Listies,
> > > >
> > > > I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this last
> > > weekend.
> > > > Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty dust!
> > > John,
> > > > how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic for
> > > testing,
> > > > but ran out.
> > > >
> > > > And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board is OK
> > > for the
> > > > circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL
> nearly
> > > as
> > > > fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but maybe
> I'll
> > > try
> > > > to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!
> > > >
> > > > Alan KM6VV

Hi Alan,
The board is the same type as used in a PC power
supply. It has a red logo or something in the board every
few inches. Sounds like you have lots of places near you.
I only have one surplus place near me. Mostly computer
parts.

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Light brown? On the un-clad side? Is it G10? Can you see the
glass
> strands, looks like a weave when you machine it? I can get single
or
> double sided board here for $0.02 (two cents) a sq in. That would
be
> $0.48 for the board you mention. Looks a little GREEN after you
machine
> (or etch) the copper off. Phenolic is BROWN. Chips are slightly
> yellow-ish. I believe FR4 is blue?
>
> Alan KM6VV
>
>
> crankorgan wrote:
> >
> > Hi Alan,
> > The board I am using costs $2 for a 4" X 6". I suspect
> > there is a better board out there. The board I use is a light
> > brown color.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
wrote:
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to
keep
> > brass
> > > and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside
the
> > mill
> > > in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some
blew
> > > around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!
> > >
> > > What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH
> > cleaner, and
> > > nicer on endmills!
> > >
> > > I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep
THIS
> > dust
> > > down.
> > >
> > > Alan KM6VV
> > >
> > >
> > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Alan,
> > > > I put a wall of masking tape around the edge of the
> > > > PVC bed. This keeps the dust from vibrating off the bed into
> > > > the leadscrews. Since I went back to 16,000 RPMs the dust
> > > > is not so bad. The best fix is to put 5 drops of motor oil
> > > > on the board. Spread it around with your fingers. This will
> > > > cut down most of the dust. Then wash the board with dawn
> > > > dish detergent. If you think that dust is bad,try sanding,
> > > > cutting and shaping MDF wood. Then some PVC! I have it
> > > > everywhere!
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Listies,
> > > > >
> > > > > I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this
last
> > > > weekend.
> > > > > Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty
dust!
> > > > John,
> > > > > how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic
for
> > > > testing,
> > > > > but ran out.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board
is OK
> > > > for the
> > > > > circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL
> > nearly
> > > > as
> > > > > fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but
maybe
> > I'll
> > > > try
> > > > > to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!
> > > > >
> > > > > Alan KM6VV

Hi John,

OK, I know what you're talking about. I don't know if it has a
different designation, 'tho (must be some kind of glass epoxy).

Yeah, there are a few. The numbers are going down. One is on the other
side of the parking lot from us. Convenient! I could use more METAL
suppliers, 'tho. Probably because I'm just not as familiar with them.

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Hi Alan,
> The board is the same type as used in a PC power
> supply. It has a red logo or something in the board every
> few inches. Sounds like you have lots of places near you.
> I only have one surplus place near me. Mostly computer
> parts.
>
> John
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Light brown? On the un-clad side? Is it G10? Can you see the
> glass
> > strands, looks like a weave when you machine it? I can get single
> or
> > double sided board here for $0.02 (two cents) a sq in. That would
> be
> > $0.48 for the board you mention. Looks a little GREEN after you
> machine
> > (or etch) the copper off. Phenolic is BROWN. Chips are slightly
> > yellow-ish. I believe FR4 is blue?
> >
> > Alan KM6VV
> >
> >
> > crankorgan wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Alan,
> > > The board I am using costs $2 for a 4" X 6". I suspect
> > > there is a better board out there. The board I use is a light
> > > brown color.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
> wrote:
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to
> keep
> > > brass
> > > > and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside
> the
> > > mill
> > > > in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some
> blew
> > > > around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!
> > > >
> > > > What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH
> > > cleaner, and
> > > > nicer on endmills!
> > > >
> > > > I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep
> THIS
> > > dust
> > > > down.
> > > >
> > > > Alan KM6VV
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Alan,
> > > > > I put a wall of masking tape around the edge of the
> > > > > PVC bed. This keeps the dust from vibrating off the bed into
> > > > > the leadscrews. Since I went back to 16,000 RPMs the dust
> > > > > is not so bad. The best fix is to put 5 drops of motor oil
> > > > > on the board. Spread it around with your fingers. This will
> > > > > cut down most of the dust. Then wash the board with dawn
> > > > > dish detergent. If you think that dust is bad,try sanding,
> > > > > cutting and shaping MDF wood. Then some PVC! I have it
> > > > > everywhere!
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Listies,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had the opportunity to mill some more PCB material this
> last
> > > > > weekend.
> > > > > > Phenolic and G10 Gass Epoxy. Boy does the G10 make nasty
> dust!
> > > > > John,
> > > > > > how can you stand it! I had been cutting up scrap phenolic
> for
> > > > > testing,
> > > > > > but ran out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I think I just discovered something, if phenolic board
> is OK
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > circuits you want to do, the cutters PROBABLY won't get DULL
> > > nearly
> > > > > as
> > > > > > fast! And it's a lot cleaner. I LOVE G10 and FR4, but
> maybe
> > > I'll
> > > > > try
> > > > > > to find some more phenolic board (single sided is fine)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alan KM6VV
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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>
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>
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In a message dated 03-Jun-02 19:22:33 Central Daylight Time,
john@... writes:

> The board I am using costs $2 for a 4" X 6". I suspect there is a better
> board out there. The board I use is a light brown color.

Whew! The nearest professional PCB house to me (ten miles?) THROWS OUT any
FR-4 (double-sided copper) less than 100 mm. wide, as that is too small to
work in their processing-machinery ("overhead waste"). I can get enough in
my grubby sticky little fingers for four or five years of tinkering for FREE!
It is CLEAN and bright, too! Sheared from big factory-sheets, and "set
aside". They may have caught on, by now, and now SELL it for all I know.
Been couple years since my last visit, there.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 03-Jun-02 20:01:29 Central Daylight Time, KM6VV@...
writes:

> . I believe FR4 is blue?

No. Hardly distinguisable from G10.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was thinking that if you use one of those pencil die grinders,
you could use the air exhaust to vacuum the dust up.

I have my little sandblasting cabinet set up with a small valve on
the exhaust hose so that it acts as a vortex vacuum to blow the
fine dust outside. Not very elegant, but it works.

Steve Greenfield

--- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to
> keep brass
> and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside
> the mill
> in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some
> blew
> around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!
>
> What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH
> cleaner, and
> nicer on endmills!
>
> I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep
> THIS dust
> down.
>
> Alan KM6VV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Hi Steve,

I might be able to do that. But the air compressor is in the garage
shop, not the office! I don't have a sandblasting cabinet, do you find
a lot of use for it?

Alan KM6VV


Steve Greenfield wrote:

>
> I was thinking that if you use one of those pencil die grinders,
> you could use the air exhaust to vacuum the dust up.
>
> I have my little sandblasting cabinet set up with a small valve on
> the exhaust hose so that it acts as a vortex vacuum to blow the
> fine dust outside. Not very elegant, but it works.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess I'll have to do that. I've used cardboard baffles to
> > keep brass
> > and aluminum dust/chips down, they normally just collect beside
> > the mill
> > in the tray the mill sits in. I got a STACK of dust (and some
> > blew
> > around) from a PCB the size of a QUARTER!
> >
> > What do you think of Phenolic board? Can you use it? MUCH
> > cleaner, and
> > nicer on endmills!
> >
> > I'm also thinking I might set up a small "hand vacuum" to keep
> > THIS dust
> > down.
> >
> > Alan KM6VV

The beige or tan colored opaque laminate is called CEM-1. It is paper
based and easy on the drill bits. This type of laminate can be scored
and snapped apart. Very little dust is made using this method.

G-10 and FR-4 laminates are the same except FR-4 has a fire resistant
rating. Not much G-10 copper clad laminate is made these days. G-10
has a white or gray colored water mark and FR-4 always has a red
water mark. Some FR-4 will have a slight yellow color. This is used
to block UV light in photoimageable soldermask applications and
doesn't change the electrical properties of the material.

It's been over a year since I have purchased any laminate but the
square foot price I paid was $2.35 for FR-4 and around $1.50 for CEM-
1. This was for 36" x 48" sheets and 18" x 24" panels.

Hope this info helps.

Tom

John,
How about using a vacuum cleaner to suck up the dust ?
Hans W

Hi Hans,
A small hose from a vacuum will work. One must make sure
you allow enough air to get into the vacuum so it does not
overheat. Adding a small hose to a vacuum without letting extra
air get in somewhere will be a disaster.
I am working on a CNC plotter that can mill boards-draw on
boards, do Scratch and Etch or even cut vinyl. I bought a plotter to
see how strong it is. Now I am working on a unit that works in a
similar way. The Z axis will have a one inch range for thicker items.
All this made from mostly hardware store parts. Roller skate bearings-
metal rods-MDF-Dremel and my favorite grey PVC plastic. I am trying
to keep it in the $100 range. Unlike the units that are made from
printer parts, this unit can be made larger or smaller.

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Hans Wedemeyer <hans@c...> wrote:
> John,
> How about using a vacuum cleaner to suck up the dust ?
> Hans W

Hi Tom,

Good info! I only recently found some of this out. If John is cutting
CEM-1 PCB material, then I wonder why it is so hard on his end mills?
We are purchasing surplus material, so it's hard to always know what the
PCB's are made of. Especially if it's double sided! My intent is to
find board that would be easy on the endmills and drills. I noticed
that the phenolic I cut last weekend appeared to cut with an easy, soft
chip, while the G10 raised a lot of dust, fine white powder chip, and I
assume wasn't easy on the cutter!

Your prices sound good, but I doubt if I need 36" x 48"!

Alan KM6VV

twb8899 wrote:

>
> The beige or tan colored opaque laminate is called CEM-1. It is paper
> based and easy on the drill bits. This type of laminate can be scored
> and snapped apart. Very little dust is made using this method.
>
> G-10 and FR-4 laminates are the same except FR-4 has a fire resistant
> rating. Not much G-10 copper clad laminate is made these days. G-10
> has a white or gray colored water mark and FR-4 always has a red
> water mark. Some FR-4 will have a slight yellow color. This is used
> to block UV light in photoimageable soldermask applications and
> doesn't change the electrical properties of the material.
>
> It's been over a year since I have purchased any laminate but the
> square foot price I paid was $2.35 for FR-4 and around $1.50 for CEM-
> 1. This was for 36" x 48" sheets and 18" x 24" panels.
>
> Hope this info helps.
>
> Tom

Alan,

All of these circuit board laminates are very abrasive so you should
always use carbide cutting tools. Use a spindle speed around 25,000
rpm to get a good cut. Slower speeds can be used but cut back on the
feed rate. I have always used .093" and .125" cutters in both CNC and
manual pin routers with good success. The bits seem to be shot after
about 100 feet of cutting. No matter which material we were cutting
there was always the fine dust and never any chips. Our machines were
equipped with vacuum extraction systems so it wasn't too bad but even
with a vacuum system the dust was still a mess.

If you are working with CEM-1 why not try scribing a line and then
snapping the laminate on this scored line. You will be surprised at
how clean of a break you will get. This works great as long as all of
the cuts are straight lines. You could even try one of those ceramic
tile cutters to put in the score line and then snap the edges off.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I wish I had a 25K spindle! I'm looking at various laminate routers. I
was using a .093" endmill. The Phenolic I was cutting made nice tame
swarf, heavy enough not to blow around, and not the "itchy glass" dust.
I'm considering plumbing up a small vacuum to handle glass dust. On the
cuts, it's the "mechanical etching" that makes the swarf. No simple
"thought cuts" of the board are needed on the mill (I have a bandsaw in
the garage shop, This mill is tabletop in my office). I'm also trying
to get the mill put into a Plexiglas display box I bought surplus. The
mill with it's steppers extends further then I thought! Box might fit
the next PCB router I have plans to build, 'tho.

I'd like to find some CEM-1 local!

Thanks for the ideas/

Alan KM6VV


twb8899 wrote:

>
> Alan,
>
> All of these circuit board laminates are very abrasive so you should
> always use carbide cutting tools. Use a spindle speed around 25,000
> rpm to get a good cut. Slower speeds can be used but cut back on the
> feed rate. I have always used .093" and .125" cutters in both CNC and
> manual pin routers with good success. The bits seem to be shot after
> about 100 feet of cutting. No matter which material we were cutting
> there was always the fine dust and never any chips. Our machines were
> equipped with vacuum extraction systems so it wasn't too bad but even
> with a vacuum system the dust was still a mess.
>
> If you are working with CEM-1 why not try scribing a line and then
> snapping the laminate on this scored line. You will be surprised at
> how clean of a break you will get. This works great as long as all of
> the cuts are straight lines. You could even try one of those ceramic
> tile cutters to put in the score line and then snap the edges off.
>
> Tom

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> I wish I had a 25K spindle! I'm looking at various laminate

routers. I

> was using a .093" endmill. The Phenolic I was cutting made nice

tame

> swarf, heavy enough not to blow around, and not the "itchy glass"

dust.


Alan,

Here is something you could try. Take a regular drill press and put
a large pulley on the motor and the smallest possible pulley on the
spindle. You should be able to find the right ratio to get up to
25,000 RPM.

You can then attach a piece of plywood to the drill table and drill a
hole into this wood with a .125" drill bit. Remove the bit, close the
chuck all the way and use the chuck to press a .125" dowell pin into
this hole. Now chuck a .125" router bit and lower the spindle until
it is almost touching the pin. Lock the drill spindle to this depth
and you have a pin router.

You may have to make a new pulley shield since the motor pulley could
end up being larger than the original shield after the correct ratio
is established. Make a template the finished size of your board with
at least two tooling pins and you can route the boards to size. As
many as three and sometimes four boards deep can be routed this way
depending on your spindle power. The only negative with this method
is the Morse taper on most drill spindles can't take too much side
load but I have seen this method work and you don't have as much
noise as the Dremel tool and die grinders make. This is similar to
how the big pin routers work.

I use a commercial pin router and have always been able to out
perform all but the largest CNC machines. If you are making larger
quantities this is a good way to get the job done with a small
investment. I also use pin routers to make my control panels and
other plastic parts.

Tom

Hi:
I was wondering if anyone knew how to invert a printed circuit board image? I am using protel 99se and I can print a positive of the image just fine but I am trying to find a way to invert this image turning it into a negative. Protel allows you to export an image as a windows media file but when I do this and take it into an image editing program such as paint much resolution is lost. I am trying very hard to avoid the process of printing, scanning and reprinting. Any suggestions would be greatly apprecitated!
Thanks,
Randy Knutson



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Hello Randy,

Thursday, June 06, 2002, 12:16:42 AM, you wrote:


RK> Hi:
RK> I was wondering if anyone knew how to invert a printed circuit board image? I am using protel 99se and I can print a positive of the image just fine but I am trying to find a way to invert this
RK> image turning it into a negative. Protel allows you to export an image as a windows media file but when I do this and take it into an image editing program such as paint much resolution is lost.
RK> I am trying very hard to avoid the process of printing, scanning and reprinting. Any suggestions would be greatly apprecitated!
RK> Thanks,
RK> Randy Knutson

And I replied:

Install any of the PostScript drivers on your system (if you already do not
have one installed - Linotronic is OK), print to file (extension .PS), use
CorelDraw, draw a white filled restangle which coincides your board outline
and send it to back, select all, from Effects menu select Invert, and print
again to file in .PS format.

Your design is now ready. This is the way that I usually do all
preparations for the files that I use for singlesided boards when I want to
add some things that 99se is not capable of.

--
Best Regards,
Zoran A. Scepanovic
mailto:zasto@...
http://zasto.bizhosting.com
http://zasto.dzaba.com (Serbian only)

At 03:16 PM 6/5/02 -0700, Randy Knutson wrote:

>Hi:
> I was wondering if anyone knew how to invert a printed circuit board
> image? I am using protel 99se and I can print a positive of the image
> just fine but I am trying to find a way to invert this image turning it
> into a negative. Protel allows you to export an image as a windows media
> file but when I do this and take it into an image editing program such as
> paint much resolution is lost. I am trying very hard to avoid the process
> of printing, scanning and reprinting. Any suggestions would be greatly
> apprecitated!
>Thanks,
>Randy Knutson

There are several solutions.

1) Print artwork files to disk as HPGL and use PrintGL
<http://www.concentric.net/~ravitz/> to do what you will with them. This
is the method I use.

2) Print artwork files to disk as Gerber and use one of the freebie Gerber
viewers to print the file. I *think* they can do a negative but I'm not
sure. Look for GCprevue from <www.graphicode.com> or ViewMate
<www.lavenir.com> i

I think highly of Cary Ravitz's PrintGL - so much so that I purchased a
licence several years ago. I use it several times each week. Do note that
the software is not crippled in any way - it works the same if you pay for
it or not. Only your karma knows the difference!

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
.-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
`-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

Gerber is the way out of Protel. Create the gerber files and print them with a gerber program. Protel
doesn't have any native support built in for gerbers and most other PCB packages don't either. Strange but
true. Camtastic comes with Protel 99SE but I prefer Gerbtool. CAM 350 is another good one. CamCad is
yet another one that also will do a lot of file conversions between various board and schematic formats.

There are some freeware gerber programs out there but I've never done much with any of those.

Oh, and if you are going to use photo resist boards, click the "mirror" box on your layers in Protel, then when
you export the gerber and print it, you can lay the ink or toner side down on the board surface for the exposure
stage.

later,
Larry E.

----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Knutson
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inverting



Hi:
I was wondering if anyone knew how to invert a printed circuit board image? I am using protel 99se and I can print a positive of the image just fine but I am trying to find a way to invert this image turning it into a negative. Protel allows you to export an image as a windows media file but when I do this and take it into an image editing program such as paint much resolution is lost. I am trying very hard to avoid the process of printing, scanning and reprinting. Any suggestions would be greatly apprecitated!
Thanks,
Randy Knutson



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Randy: Most decent lithograph (print-) shops have cameras that can do HUGE
negative OR positive films, and most will do "contact print" films for a few
bucks.

I wrote a simple program that plots Gerber RS-274X files to a TIFF at
any specified resolution. There is an option to make negatives. I
haven't supported all the features of the RS-274X standard but it should
work fine with Protel. If you have any questions then feel free to
contact me. There is a lot more work needed to turn it into a useful
tool. note: GERB2TIF is a Win32 console app.

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/gerb2tif_04.zip


Dwayne Reid wrote:

>At 03:16 PM 6/5/02 -0700, Randy Knutson wrote:
>
>>Hi:
>> I was wondering if anyone knew how to invert a printed circuit board
>>image? I am using protel 99se and I can print a positive of the image
>>just fine but I am trying to find a way to invert this image turning it
>>into a negative. Protel allows you to export an image as a windows media
>>file but when I do this and take it into an image editing program such as
>>paint much resolution is lost. I am trying very hard to avoid the process
>>of printing, scanning and reprinting. Any suggestions would be greatly
>>apprecitated!
>>Thanks,
>>Randy Knutson
>>
>
>There are several solutions.
>
>1) Print artwork files to disk as HPGL and use PrintGL
><http://www.concentric.net/~ravitz/> to do what you will with them. This
>is the method I use.
>
>2) Print artwork files to disk as Gerber and use one of the freebie Gerber
>viewers to print the file. I *think* they can do a negative but I'm not
>sure. Look for GCprevue from <www.graphicode.com> or ViewMate
><www.lavenir.com> i
>
>I think highly of Cary Ravitz's PrintGL - so much so that I purchased a
>licence several years ago. I use it several times each week. Do note that
>the software is not crippled in any way - it works the same if you pay for
>it or not. Only your karma knows the difference!
>
>dwayne
>
>--
>Dwayne Reid <dwayner@...>
>Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
>(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
>
>Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
> .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
> `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
>Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
>This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
>commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Greetings:
I have a question for all the eagle users. I am having a heck of a time getting tools like CAMtastic and GERBTOOL to import my gerber files. I have tried a few different conversion types such as GerberRS-274x and HPGL but have remained unsuccessful in importing them. I have attempted the same thing in PROTEL and it works perfectly but not in eagle. (the reason I am using eagle is because this is a single sided board) When I look in protels cam directory I see 6 independent "gerber, aperature, etc..." files as opposed to the 2 files eagle is generating. I also fail to see an aperature file in eagle which GERBTOOL AND CAMTASTIC are specifically asking for. I think the problem lies in the fact that eagle is not generating an aperature file therefore I am unable to load them. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
-Thanks,
Randy Knutson



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Randy,
See if they will go into KCam.(KellyCam)

www.kellyware.com/

Works for 30 days.

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Randy Knutson <ken_ryder@y...> wrote:
>
> Greetings:
> I have a question for all the eagle users. I am having a heck of a
time getting tools like CAMtastic and GERBTOOL to import my gerber
files. I have tried a few different conversion types such as GerberRS-
274x and HPGL but have remained unsuccessful in importing them. I
have attempted the same thing in PROTEL and it works perfectly but
not in eagle. (the reason I am using eagle is because this is a
single sided board) When I look in protels cam directory I see 6
independent "gerber, aperature, etc..." files as opposed to the 2
files eagle is generating. I also fail to see an aperature file in
eagle which GERBTOOL AND CAMTASTIC are specifically asking for. I
think the problem lies in the fact that eagle is not generating an
aperature file therefore I am unable to load them. Any help would be
greatly appreciated!
> -Thanks,
> Randy Knutson
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Randy, try the free Viewmate Gerber viewer from www.lavenir.com.

Hope that helps,

Lukas Louw

>
> Greetings:
> I have a question for all the eagle users. I am having a heck of a time

getting tools like CAMtastic and GERBTOOL to import my gerber files. I have
tried a few different conversion types such as GerberRS-274x and HPGL but
have remained unsuccessful in importing them. I have attempted the same
thing in PROTEL and it works perfectly but not in eagle. (the reason I am
using eagle is because this is a single sided board) When I look in protels
cam directory I see 6 independent "gerber, aperature, etc..." files as
opposed to the 2 files eagle is generating. I also fail to see an aperature
file in eagle which GERBTOOL AND CAMTASTIC are specifically asking for. I
think the problem lies in the fact that eagle is not generating an aperature
file therefore I am unable to load them. Any help would be greatly
appreciated!

> -Thanks,
> Randy Knutson

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02

Randy,

I believe there is a ULP you have to run called drillconfig.ulp or something
like that. The users documentation covers that pretty well if you are using
a legit copy.

Bob

>From: Randy Knutson <ken_ryder@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] eagle cam
>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 04:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> Greetings:
>I have a question for all the eagle users. I am having a heck of a time
>getting tools like CAMtastic and GERBTOOL to import my gerber files. I have
>tried a few different conversion types such as GerberRS-274x and HPGL but
>have remained unsuccessful in importing them. I have attempted the same
>thing in PROTEL and it works perfectly but not in eagle. (the reason I am
>using eagle is because this is a single sided board) When I look in protels
>cam directory I see 6 independent "gerber, aperature, etc..." files as
>opposed to the 2 files eagle is generating. I also fail to see an aperature
>file in eagle which GERBTOOL AND CAMTASTIC are specifically asking for. I
>think the problem lies in the fact that eagle is not generating an
>aperature file therefore I am unable to load them. Any help would be
>greatly appreciated!
>-Thanks,
>Randy Knutson
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Viewmate Gerber viewer from www.lavenir.com.

It works with my EAGLE files... no problem.

hansw

Lukas Louw wrote:

> Randy, try the free Viewmate Gerber viewer from www.lavenir.com.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Lukas Louw

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Randy,
Is this still part of your need to INVERT the image (your earlier post)
?
If so you can do it from EAGLE ! no need for Gerber
Hans W

Randy Knutson wrote:

>
> Greetings:
> I have a question for all the eagle users. I am having a heck of a
> time getting tools like CAMtastic and GERBTOOL to import my gerber
> files. I have tried a few different conversion types such as
> GerberRS-274x and HPGL but have remained unsuccessful in importing
> them. I have attempted the same thing in PROTEL and it works perfectly
> but not in eagle. (the reason I am using eagle is because this is a
> single sided board) When I look in protels cam directory I see 6
> independent "gerber, aperature, etc..." files as opposed to the 2
> files eagle is generating. I also fail to see an aperature file in
> eagle which GERBTOOL AND CAMTASTIC are specifically asking for. I
> think the problem lies in the fact that eagle is not generating an
> aperature file therefore I am unable to load them. Any help would be
> greatly appreciated!
> -Thanks,
> Randy Knutson
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Randy,

Are you generating RS-274X or RS-274D files? the newer 'X' will not
have a separate aperture file. Both are available in Eagle. If you
NEED a separate aperture file (wheel file), I suspect you'll need to
select the 'D'.

Alan KM6VV

Randy Knutson wrote:

>
> Greetings:
> I have a question for all the eagle users. I am having a heck of a time getting tools like CAMtastic and GERBTOOL to import my gerber files. I have tried a few different conversion types such as GerberRS-274x and HPGL but have remained unsuccessful in importing them. I have attempted the same thing in PROTEL and it works perfectly but not in eagle. (the reason I am using eagle is because this is a single sided board) When I look in protels cam directory I see 6 independent "gerber, aperature, etc..." files as opposed to the 2 files eagle is generating. I also fail to see an aperature file in eagle which GERBTOOL AND CAMTASTIC are specifically asking for. I think the problem lies in the fact that eagle is not generating an aperature file therefore I am unable to load them. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
> -Thanks,
> Randy Knutson
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Dear Hans:
Yes! I am now trying to invert in eagle. The only way I have figured out how to do it within eagle is to export it as a bitmap and ivert in paint but this messes up scaling. Can you tell me what I am doing wrong? I am using the demo version of eagle.
Thanks!
Randy Knutson



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Randy,
Sorry I screwed up... I've been using so many PCB programs... So for my
own sanity I searched and found the one that does allow "Invert" and it
is PIA Version 2.1
I checked the latest Version of PIA (3.0) and it no longer has the
option...
Link to PIA site http://www.waldherr.com/
I used PIA for many years, the older version only did 2 layers ( and
does Invert, I just checked it), the new version does 8 layers, but no
longer has invert...

May be your only option is to export Gerber and invert.
I know the Viewmate Gerber viewer from www.lavenir.com does work with
EAGLE exported Gerber files..
I just checked again so as not to mis-lead ...
Regards
hansw

Randy Knutson wrote:

>
> Dear Hans:
> Yes! I am now trying to invert in eagle. The only way I have figured
> out how to do it within eagle is to export it as a bitmap and ivert in
> paint but this messes up scaling. Can you tell me what I am doing
> wrong? I am using the demo version of eagle.
> Thanks!
> Randy Knutson
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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