Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew_PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-04-02 21:59 UTC

Thread

Hairspray

Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Earl T. Hackett, Jr.

In the thread about water soluble paper, the comment about using hairspray
as a water soluble barrier caught my interest. My primary hobby is model
railroading - electronics gets into the act in loco control and signal
systems.

We commonly use hairspray as a spray adhesive in scenery construction. The
cheaper the better because the cheap ones have more solids and glue the hair
in place. I never thought about it before, but obviously the stuff has to
be water soluble. It might be worth a look if the hair spray solids can
tolerate the fuser temperature.

I also got some ideas for other applications from the comment. You never
know what nuggets of ideas you will find on these mail lists ;-))

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Thomas

Idea's spawn up everywhere here .....

Just finished the hairspray test and it kind a worked ok needs refinement !!
patchy I'd call it !!
The paper dried fairly quick and you can see a definate Gloss to it ,
wetting the paper the hairspray turns slimy and dissolve's slowly and when
you rub it then you can feel the texture of the paper as you rub through the
slime.
I used regular old inkjet printer paper nothing fancy.
The newly coated paper survived the Laser Printer ok ... sure does smell
good when you Iron the paper !!

I'll try it again and apply more Hair Spray, I think that the paper absorbs
a fair bit of it....

Thomas






----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Earl T. Hackett, Jr." <hacketet@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:46 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Hairspray


>
> In the thread about water soluble paper, the comment about using hairspray
> as a water soluble barrier caught my interest. My primary hobby is model
> railroading - electronics gets into the act in loco control and signal
> systems.
>
> We commonly use hairspray as a spray adhesive in scenery construction.
> The
> cheaper the better because the cheap ones have more solids and glue the
> hair
> in place. I never thought about it before, but obviously the stuff has to
> be water soluble. It might be worth a look if the hair spray solids can
> tolerate the fuser temperature.
>
> I also got some ideas for other applications from the comment. You never
> know what nuggets of ideas you will find on these mail lists ;-))
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:35:55 +0700, Thomas <teecee@...> wrote:

>
> Idea's spawn up everywhere here .....
>
> Just finished the hairspray test and it kind a worked ok needs
> refinement !!
> patchy I'd call it !!
> The paper dried fairly quick and you can see a definate Gloss to it ,
> wetting the paper the hairspray turns slimy and dissolve's slowly and
> when
> you rub it then you can feel the texture of the paper as you rub through
> the
> slime.
> I used regular old inkjet printer paper nothing fancy.
> The newly coated paper survived the Laser Printer ok ... sure does smell
> good when you Iron the paper !!
>
> I'll try it again and apply more Hair Spray, I think that the paper
> absorbs
> a fair bit of it....
>
> Thomas
>


I wonder if that spray-on starch thing was followed up upon.
You certainly seem the right guy for such experiments, maybe you'd like to
try that.

ST

Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Phil

I tried spray on starch. Too much water - when the paper dries it
gets very uneven and I was afraid to feed it through my copier. A
very light coating of the stuff didn't work. I even tried it on 90#
paper (not sure the metric equivalent) to same effect. Tried ironing,
no good. Tried pressing between smooth but somewhat absorbent
material (2 pieces of hardboard), a little better but not that good.
I believe that a photo dryer might work but I have no access to one.
At that point i decided this was too much effort and gave up.

Mucilage sounds better because there is much less water in it. I
suspect the trick is to get a very thin and even coating.

I may have to hit the drug store for some cheapo hair spray.
Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:35:55 +0700, Thomas <teecee@c...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Idea's spawn up everywhere here .....
> >
> > Just finished the hairspray test and it kind a worked ok needs
> > refinement !!
> > patchy I'd call it !!
> > The paper dried fairly quick and you can see a definate Gloss to it ,
> > wetting the paper the hairspray turns slimy and dissolve's slowly
and
> > when
> > you rub it then you can feel the texture of the paper as you rub
through
> > the
> > slime.
> > I used regular old inkjet printer paper nothing fancy.
> > The newly coated paper survived the Laser Printer ok ... sure does
smell
> > good when you Iron the paper !!
> >
> > I'll try it again and apply more Hair Spray, I think that the paper
> > absorbs
> > a fair bit of it....
> >
> > Thomas
> >
>
>
> I wonder if that spray-on starch thing was followed up upon.
> You certainly seem the right guy for such experiments, maybe you'd
like to
> try that.
>
> ST

Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by cybermace5

> Mucilage sounds better because there is much less water in it. I
> suspect the trick is to get a very thin and even coating.
>
> I may have to hit the drug store for some cheapo hair spray.

What about hair gel? You can get that stuff pretty cheaply. It dries
hard like hairspray and comes out with water. Possibly use an ink
roller, or some other kind of stiff foam-rubber roller? Basically we
are looking for a water-soluble varnish here. I guess it remains to be
seen if this pathway offers any improvement over photo paper. Though
typically, photo paper is very thick and close-grained, making it
difficult for the water to throughly soak into the printed side. If
mucilage or guar gum or something can be impregnated into a thinner,
more porous paper, perhaps it will soak through much faster and not
leave any clay residue. I get the impression that this is what the
mucilage guy is experiencing.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:23:16 -0000, cybermace5 <cybermace5@...>
wrote:

> I guess it remains to be
> seen if this pathway offers any improvement over photo paper. Though
> typically, photo paper is very thick and close-grained, making it
> difficult for the water to throughly soak into the printed side. If
> mucilage or guar gum or something can be impregnated into a thinner,
> more porous paper, perhaps it will soak through much faster and not
> leave any clay residue. I get the impression that this is what the
> mucilage guy is experiencing.


You got to the point here. It should be tried but it remains to be seen if
it is any better.
(and you must add the work required for coating on one side of the
equation)
Only without trying we'll never know.

I agree with the thickness beeing an issue. The paper i use now is 100g,
and avery/zweckform
makes 90g paper with the same coating too, but the shop didn't stock that.
(if you are unfamiliar with metric paper weights 80g is standard copier
paper.)
What weight is staples paper in g/m^2?

I used the 150g of the same series before, the 100g was a huge
improvement, not only cost-wise.
The thinner paper gets more toner in the printer, reducing pinholes. (that
is why you shouldn't
use a carrier sheet if you have density trouble.)
Also the lighter paper is a faster soak/rub.

The only drawback is the 100g paper is coated both sides, while the 150g
was single-sided. the uncoated
back was soaked much faster. the 90g paper would be single sided again, if
i can find it. but then you needn't
mind using the right side, which equalizes the advantages.

As i have said a hundred times before, probably, the pressing issues for
me are distortion and heat-shrinking,
and resolution. If we reduce the effort of soaking it will be nice, but
not affect my results.

I hope someone follows up on the mucilage thing. I can't go to a shop and
ask for "slime" without odd looks
and coming back empty handed... or much worse not empty handed ;-)

ST

Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
...
>
> I hope someone follows up on the mucilage thing. I can't go to a
shop and
> ask for "slime" without odd looks
> and coming back empty handed... or much worse not empty handed ;-)
>
> ST

mucilage is a kind of glue. Its used for gluing paper together. I
believe that "lickable" postal envelopes use mucilage.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

>
> mucilage is a kind of glue. Its used for gluing paper together. I
> believe that "lickable" postal envelopes use mucilage.
>

much like wallpaper paste then?

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Earl T. Hackett, Jr.

The ability to use a thiner, more transparent paper would make registration
of the artwork on double sided boards much easier. I prefer tooling holes
in a couple of empty corners of the board vs edge registration. I can get
registration of one side through the tooling holes by using a bright light,
but I've been unsuccessful at lineing up the second image.

Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > mucilage is a kind of glue. Its used for gluing paper together. I
> > believe that "lickable" postal envelopes use mucilage.
> >
>
> much like wallpaper paste then?
>

I dont think they are exactly the same. wallpaper paste seems
"coarse" to me, mucilage seems much smoother, slimier. I suspect the
origin of the word in mucus which would be about right.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray

2004-11-16 by Earl T. Hackett, Jr.

Wallpaper paste is made from wheat. The stickiness comes from the glutin - what makes pasta stick to the pan when it dries. Components of wallpaper paste are not soluble therefore the apparent corseness of the adhesive.

Mucilage is a protein derrived from those found in bone and other hard animal structures. It is completely soluble in water. I'm not sure I would recommend either for use in toner transfer applications.

Photographic film uses a very specific gelatin made from cow bones as the base for the emulsion which carries the photosensitive components of the film. When placed in water to develop the film it does swell, but it does not dissolve rapidly. I have been told by reliable sources in Kodak and the DuPont X-ray film business (now this was 25 or 30 years ago) that their primary source for photographic film gelatin is India because the cow bones have to be exposed to ultraviolet light from the sun for many years - just plain old cow bones just don't seem to work very well.

I think our best bet for a paper coating will be a synthetic polymer that is water soluble and that can be applied by a solvent process so the paper substrate doesn't deform. Whatever is in hairspray seems to be a reasonable starting point, however there are hundreds of materials that fill this description, most of which fall into the categories of polyalcohols (CIBA Pluronic series or DuPont Elvanol) and copolymers of ethylene and acrylic acid or other reactive organic acids (DuPont Nucrel).

None of these are high temperature polymers and the problem will be stability at the temperatures required for toner transfer.

Sorry for the chemistry lesson - I don't know how to explain it any other way....
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Phil
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:14 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > mucilage is a kind of glue. Its used for gluing paper together. I
> > believe that "lickable" postal envelopes use mucilage.
> >
>
> much like wallpaper paste then?
>

I dont think they are exactly the same. wallpaper paste seems
"coarse" to me, mucilage seems much smoother, slimier. I suspect the
origin of the word in mucus which would be about right.





Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray

2004-11-17 by Mike Newman

From my Collins English dictionary - Australian edition - 1979

mu+ci+lage ('mju;silidz) n 1. a sticky preparation, such as gum or glue, used as an adhesive. 2. a complex glutinous carbohydrate secreted by certain plants. [C14: via Old French; from Late Latin mucilago mouldy juice; see mucid]

mu+cid ('mjusid) adj. rare, mouldy, musty, or slimy. [C17; from Latin mucidus, from mucere to be mouldy]

mu+cus ('mju:kas) n. the slimy protective secretions of the mucous membranes, consisting mainly of mucin. [c17:from Latin: nasal secretion; compare mungere to blow the nose; related to Greek muxa mucus,mukter nose]

de MikeN
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Earl T. Hackett, Jr.
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray


Wallpaper paste is made from wheat. The stickiness comes from the glutin - what makes pasta stick to the pan when it dries. Components of wallpaper paste are not soluble therefore the apparent corseness of the adhesive.

Mucilage is a protein derrived from those found in bone and other hard animal structures. It is completely soluble in water. I'm not sure I would recommend either for use in toner transfer applications.

Photographic film uses a very specific gelatin made from cow bones as the base for the emulsion which carries the photosensitive components of the film. When placed in water to develop the film it does swell, but it does not dissolve rapidly. I have been told by reliable sources in Kodak and the DuPont X-ray film business (now this was 25 or 30 years ago) that their primary source for photographic film gelatin is India because the cow bones have to be exposed to ultraviolet light from the sun for many years - just plain old cow bones just don't seem to work very well.

I think our best bet for a paper coating will be a synthetic polymer that is water soluble and that can be applied by a solvent process so the paper substrate doesn't deform. Whatever is in hairspray seems to be a reasonable starting point, however there are hundreds of materials that fill this description, most of which fall into the categories of polyalcohols (CIBA Pluronic series or DuPont Elvanol) and copolymers of ethylene and acrylic acid or other reactive organic acids (DuPont Nucrel).

None of these are high temperature polymers and the problem will be stability at the temperatures required for toner transfer.

Sorry for the chemistry lesson - I don't know how to explain it any other way....
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:14 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > mucilage is a kind of glue. Its used for gluing paper together. I
> > believe that "lickable" postal envelopes use mucilage.
> >
>
> much like wallpaper paste then?
>

I dont think they are exactly the same. wallpaper paste seems
"coarse" to me, mucilage seems much smoother, slimier. I suspect the
origin of the word in mucus which would be about right.





Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray

2004-11-17 by Thomas

<<the slimy protective secretions of the mucous membranes, consisting mainly of mucin. [c17:from Latin: nasal secretion; compare mungere to blow the nose; related to Greek muxa mucus,mukter nose]>>

next time I have the Flu I'll give the paper a coating of that stuff !!! hehehehe
appologies for my sick Humour ...
Thomas


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Mike Newman
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray


From my Collins English dictionary - Australian edition - 1979

mu+ci+lage ('mju;silidz) n 1. a sticky preparation, such as gum or glue, used as an adhesive. 2. a complex glutinous carbohydrate secreted by certain plants. [C14: via Old French; from Late Latin mucilago mouldy juice; see mucid]

mu+cid ('mjusid) adj. rare, mouldy, musty, or slimy. [C17; from Latin mucidus, from mucere to be mouldy]

mu+cus ('mju:kas) n. the slimy protective secretions of the mucous membranes, consisting mainly of mucin. [c17:from Latin: nasal secretion; compare mungere to blow the nose; related to Greek muxa mucus,mukter nose]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hairspray

2004-11-17 by millerdl

The regular Staples Picture paper shows as 200 g/m^2 (53 lb), 9 mil
The Staples Premium Picture Paper is 210 g/m^2 (56 lb), 8 mil

Dennis

Stefan Trethan wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text
><snip>
>
>I agree with the thickness beeing an issue. The paper i use now is 100g,
>and avery/zweckform
>makes 90g paper with the same coating too, but the shop didn't stock that.
>(if you are unfamiliar with metric paper weights 80g is standard copier
>paper.)
>What weight is staples paper in g/m^2?
>
><snip>
>