Homebrew PCBs

My pen plotter has run out of gas at 0.5 mil pitch.
Trying to make the transfer to toner transfer.
How do I get the gerber output to the laser printer?
I downloaded Viewmate.  Does an excellent job, but
insists on putting the plot in the center of the page.
And the free version is crippled so I can't save anything.

Is there a freeware gerber plotter that's less restricting?

I've been having good results plotting on copper with the lumocolor
313-2 pens.  If I could find a finer pen, I could avoid all this toner
stuff.  Ideas?

I'm finding little detailed information on the toner transfer
method.  Mountains of anecdotal stuff, but almost no data.

My iron is 450 degrees F.  Is that good? bad? ugly?  Time and pressure
data is elusive.  Yes, I can do all the experiments, but would be
nice to avoid most of that.

Thanks, mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> My pen plotter has run out of gas at 0.5 mil pitch.
> Trying to make the transfer to toner transfer.
> How do I get the gerber output to the laser printer?
> I downloaded Viewmate.  Does an excellent job, but
> insists on putting the plot in the center of the page.
> And the free version is crippled so I can't save anything.

Why is placement in the middle of the page an issue?  Not criticizing
just want to know.

> 
> Is there a freeware gerber plotter that's less restricting?
> 

I use viewmate - its pretty good for free but would dearly like to
save my panelized gerbers.  Though not at the viewmate costs.

> 
> I'm finding little detailed information on the toner transfer
> method.  Mountains of anecdotal stuff, but almost no data.
> 

there are several sites that espouse one TT aproach or another but no
systematic sites.  I think its because there are too many variables
(paper, fusing device, toner, ...).  You should just try it and see
what works for you.  It doesn't take much experimentation to get
something that works.

> My iron is 450 degrees F.  Is that good? bad? ugly?  Time and pressure
> data is elusive.  Yes, I can do all the experiments, but would be
> nice to avoid most of that.
>

450F will do a fine job of fusing toner to copper - its very likely
you could get by with lower but different toners have different fusing
points.  Depends on your printer/toner.  You might want to start with
30 lbs of pressure and 3 minutes per side.  Be careful of too much
lateral force, though.  I personally like inkjet paper because it
seems to be forgiving of too much pressure (i.e. I could really put a
lot of weight into it and not worry).

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
> <gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > My pen plotter has run out of gas at 0.5 mil pitch.

CORRECTION:  That's 0.5mm pitch.

> > Trying to make the transfer to toner transfer.
> > How do I get the gerber output to the laser printer?
> > I downloaded Viewmate.  Does an excellent job, but
> > insists on putting the plot in the center of the page.
> > And the free version is crippled so I can't save anything.
> 
> Why is placement in the middle of the page an issue?  Not criticizing
> just want to know.

Simple, I'm using up 93 square inches of paper for a two square inch
board.  Hardly a problem when you know what you're doing.
Seems overly wasteful when you're gonna do dozens of test runs
trying to learn the process.  It really, REALLY bugs me when 4 sheets
of paper costs more than the laser printer.
Just call me frugal...REALLY FRUGAL!!!

I'm using the staples picture paper.  I got the impression that
it would be pretty easy to get off the board.  Seemed pretty darn
hard to me.  That's why I thought I might be overheating it...or
underheating it...or doing something wrong.
> 
> > 
> > Is there a freeware gerber plotter that's less restricting?
> > 
> 
> I use viewmate - its pretty good for free but would dearly like to
> save my panelized gerbers.  Though not at the viewmate costs.
> 
> > 
> > I'm finding little detailed information on the toner transfer
> > method.  Mountains of anecdotal stuff, but almost no data.
> > 
> 
> there are several sites that espouse one TT aproach or another but no
> systematic sites.  I think its because there are too many variables
> (paper, fusing device, toner, ...).  You should just try it and see
> what works for you.  It doesn't take much experimentation to get
> something that works.
> 
> > My iron is 450 degrees F.  Is that good? bad? ugly?  Time and pressure
> > data is elusive.  Yes, I can do all the experiments, but would be
> > nice to avoid most of that.
> >
> 
> 450F will do a fine job of fusing toner to copper - its very likely
> you could get by with lower but different toners have different fusing
> points.  Depends on your printer/toner.  You might want to start with
> 30 lbs of pressure and 3 minutes per side.  Be careful of too much
> lateral force, though.  I personally like inkjet paper because it
> seems to be forgiving of too much pressure (i.e. I could really put a
> lot of weight into it and not worry).


Has anybody tried turning off the printer fuser?  Apply the unfused
image to hot copper, peel it off immediately, then fuse the copper
with a heat gun?  Think offset printing.  Space the paper up off the
board and run a roller across it once.  OR maybe just hit it with
high voltage and use that to transfer the toner image???  Hmmm,
wonder if my Laserjet 4L toner is the magnetic stuff?  I feel an
experiment or two coming on.

mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
...
> > Why is placement in the middle of the page an issue?  Not criticizing
> > just want to know.
> 
> Simple, I'm using up 93 square inches of paper for a two square inch
> board.  Hardly a problem when you know what you're doing.
> Seems overly wasteful when you're gonna do dozens of test runs
> trying to learn the process.  It really, REALLY bugs me when 4 sheets
> of paper costs more than the laser printer.
> Just call me frugal...REALLY FRUGAL!!!

well, you could look into using inkjet paper instead - somewhat
cheaper at about $0.008 a sheet.  Or you could just cut out a piece of
the staples paper and tape it to the print area.

...
> 
> Has anybody tried turning off the printer fuser?  Apply the unfused
> image to hot copper, peel it off immediately, then fuse the copper
> with a heat gun?  Think offset printing.  Space the paper up off the
> board and run a roller across it once.  OR maybe just hit it with
> high voltage and use that to transfer the toner image???  Hmmm,
> wonder if my Laserjet 4L toner is the magnetic stuff?  I feel an
> experiment or two coming on.

at the point that paper+toner passes the fuser in a laser printer, its
held on via static electricity.  I think it unlikely that it would 
stick very long if it didn't get fused to the paper.   Though you are
clearly thinking in the right direction - I look forward to your
experiments.

I've done some more ironing experiments.  The toner is sticking to the
board very well in most areas.  With a little practice, it should be
fine.  Problem is that I can't get the paper off without tearing off
the traces.  I've got a TQFP64 package with a bunch of parallel runs
with 5 mils between them.  The toner looks fine, but the paper is
stuck in the spaces between runs.  I soaked it for an hour, but can't
get the paper out of the cracks without tearing off the runs.
Larger traces with more space are no problem.
Suggestions?

Also, what do people use to touch up missing trace segments, pinholes,
etc.???  Lumocolor 313-2 would do it except that the pen tip is way
too large.  If I could find a pen that would do the touch up, I'd just
plot with the pen and be done with it.

What I need is a finepoint system 0.1 pen with etch resistant ink.

How do the various etchants affect different inks?  I've only used
FeCl.  Are other etchants easier on the resist?

Thanks, mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> 
> I've done some more ironing experiments.  The toner is sticking to the
> board very well in most areas.  With a little practice, it should be
> fine.  Problem is that I can't get the paper off without tearing off
> the traces.  I've got a TQFP64 package with a bunch of parallel runs
> with 5 mils between them.  The toner looks fine, but the paper is
> stuck in the spaces between runs.  I soaked it for an hour, but can't
> get the paper out of the cracks without tearing off the runs.
> Larger traces with more space are no problem.
> Suggestions?
> 

Toner coming off could be one of several things: rough handling, board
prep issues, insufficient fusing time/temp, fusing pressure or paper
issues.

To get the paper off, try extra soaking.  Be gentle with the toner. 
Soft rubbing with your thumb should get it off pretty easily.  Dont
force it. 

Board prep, for me at least, is crucial.  You not only need to
degrease it but remove oxides and "activate" the copper.  There are
lots of ways to do this.  Think-n-tinker has a good process
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/cleaning.htm  My
technique is to use 600 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper and wipe with
acetone on a paper towel.  The 600 grit removes the crud layer and
creates more surface area for the toner to bind to (IMO, this is
crucial for good toner transfer).  The acetone degreases and removes
the debris from the sanding.  The negative is that you loose a little
copper.

Fusing temperature is pretty important but so is time.  I'd try
doubling your ironing time.

Pressure is also important.  With an iron, I would iron the board and
when it was done, turn off the iron and leave it on the board/paper
assembly.  This ensures good physical paper/copper contact while the
toner goes from liquid to solid.  I also have used a metal wall paper
roller on the cooling board to good effect.

paper, what can I say that hasn't been already said?  I like inkjet
paper but get accused of pedantry when I mention it.  Still, its ultra
cheap and works really well.

> Also, what do people use to touch up missing trace segments, pinholes,
> etc.???  Lumocolor 313-2 would do it except that the pen tip is way
> too large.  If I could find a pen that would do the touch up, I'd just
> plot with the pen and be done with it.
> 
> What I need is a finepoint system 0.1 pen with etch resistant ink.
> 
> How do the various etchants affect different inks?  I've only used
> FeCl.  Are other etchants easier on the resist?
> 
> Thanks, mike

Thanks for the input.  I don't think toner sticking is my problem.
I have to clean the board between attempts.  I use acetone and have
to scrape it off with my fingernail.  It's stuck really well.
Problem is that the clay coating of the picture paper is also stuck
really well.  Clay comes off big areas easily.  Can rub it off with
a wet thumb in the denser areas.  But for 5 mil spaces between traces,
I just can't get it out.  For a few spaces, I could dig it out with a sharp knife.  This board is almost all 5 mil spaces.

As for cleaning, I've been using a nylon scrubber followed by tarn-x
followed by alcohol.  Tarn-X is a copper/silver cleaner containing
thiourea.  Been using it for decades with excellent results on pen-plotted boards.

As for ironing, I've only made 5 tries so far.  Longer time has
been worse as has been lower temperature.  My first attempt, 
2-minutes at 450F seemed to be the best so far.  The copper surface
is starting to take on the texture of the fiberglass.  Time for a new
chunk of board.

I tried cooling the board then putting back the iron for a few
seconds and hot peeling the paper.  That was a disaster.

Seems like the thing to do would be to put some conformal material between the iron and board to even out the pressure.  
High temperature thin rubber sheet?

Had another thought.  What about a a thin sheet ot teflon.
Print the image on that.  Teflon oughta peel right off.

I'm off to buy some other paper.
mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
> <gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I've done some more ironing experiments.  The toner is sticking to the
> > board very well in most areas.  With a little practice, it should be
> > fine.  Problem is that I can't get the paper off without tearing off
> > the traces.  I've got a TQFP64 package with a bunch of parallel runs
> > with 5 mils between them.  The toner looks fine, but the paper is
> > stuck in the spaces between runs.  I soaked it for an hour, but can't
> > get the paper out of the cracks without tearing off the runs.
> > Larger traces with more space are no problem.
> > Suggestions?
> > 
> 
> Toner coming off could be one of several things: rough handling, board
> prep issues, insufficient fusing time/temp, fusing pressure or paper
> issues.
> 
> To get the paper off, try extra soaking.  Be gentle with the toner. 
> Soft rubbing with your thumb should get it off pretty easily.  Dont
> force it. 
> 
> Board prep, for me at least, is crucial.  You not only need to
> degrease it but remove oxides and "activate" the copper.  There are
> lots of ways to do this.  Think-n-tinker has a good process
> http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/cleaning.htm  My
> technique is to use 600 grit wet-or-dry sandpaper and wipe with
> acetone on a paper towel.  The 600 grit removes the crud layer and
> creates more surface area for the toner to bind to (IMO, this is
> crucial for good toner transfer).  The acetone degreases and removes
> the debris from the sanding.  The negative is that you loose a little
> copper.
> 
> Fusing temperature is pretty important but so is time.  I'd try
> doubling your ironing time.
> 
> Pressure is also important.  With an iron, I would iron the board and
> when it was done, turn off the iron and leave it on the board/paper
> assembly.  This ensures good physical paper/copper contact while the
> toner goes from liquid to solid.  I also have used a metal wall paper
> roller on the cooling board to good effect.
> 
> paper, what can I say that hasn't been already said?  I like inkjet
> paper but get accused of pedantry when I mention it.  Still, its ultra
> cheap and works really well.
> 
> > Also, what do people use to touch up missing trace segments, pinholes,
> > etc.???  Lumocolor 313-2 would do it except that the pen tip is way
> > too large.  If I could find a pen that would do the touch up, I'd just
> > plot with the pen and be done with it.
> > 
> > What I need is a finepoint system 0.1 pen with etch resistant ink.
> > 
> > How do the various etchants affect different inks?  I've only used
> > FeCl.  Are other etchants easier on the resist?
> > 
> > Thanks, mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
... 
> 
> Seems like the thing to do would be to put some conformal material
between the iron and board to even out the pressure.  
> High temperature thin rubber sheet?

Try children's construction paper.  I'd forget the hot peel for resist
- too much of the toner will stay with the paper. 

You are doing a pretty challenging board for TT. I've got a TQFP test
case somewhere that I'll dig up and try.  When I used heavily coated
paper, I got too much trace bloom for it to work but with the inkjet
paper, it ought to do ok.

> 
> Had another thought.  What about a thin sheet of teflon.
> Print the image on that.  Teflon oughta peel right off.

interesting.  might even be reusable...  I like the way you think. 
Basically, the goal is to increase the copper/toner adhesion and/or
decrease the paper/toner adhesion.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
...
> 
> As for cleaning, I've been using a nylon scrubber followed by tarn-x
> followed by alcohol.  Tarn-X is a copper/silver cleaner containing
> thiourea.  Been using it for decades with excellent results on
pen-plotted boards.
> 
oops.  forgot to mention.  You might want to try an abrasive like the
600 grit as that does, indeed, increase the copper/toner adhesion by
increasing the surface area.  That might allow you to be more
agressive in getting the paper off.

Hi! New to this group... 

I´m using the carrier from some old matrix-printer labels that i have left.. works nice... transfers the toner exellent... and im running it thru a cheap laminator... 

Fredrik
Sweden

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Phil 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 4:27 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Paper won't come off...was:Gerber to Laser Printer How???



  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
  <gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
  ... 
  > 
  > Seems like the thing to do would be to put some conformal material
  between the iron and board to even out the pressure.  
  > High temperature thin rubber sheet?

  Try children's construction paper.  I'd forget the hot peel for resist
  - too much of the toner will stay with the paper. 

  You are doing a pretty challenging board for TT. I've got a TQFP test
  case somewhere that I'll dig up and try.  When I used heavily coated
  paper, I got too much trace bloom for it to work but with the inkjet
  paper, it ought to do ok.

  > 
  > Had another thought.  What about a thin sheet of teflon.
  > Print the image on that.  Teflon oughta peel right off.

  interesting.  might even be reusable...  I like the way you think. 
  Basically, the goal is to increase the copper/toner adhesion and/or
  decrease the paper/toner adhesion.  





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Last night I was working on a double sided board and I have some 
traces that are 8mil apart. I too was having a problem with getting 
the paper out in between the traces and didn't want to rub too hard 
for fear of ripping up the toner. I let it soak in warm soapy water 
for about 1/2 hour and then used a pencil eraser (on the end of a #2 
lead pencil) and rubbed where it wasn't comming off. To my surprise 
it works like a champ. It takes the paper right off and does no harm 
to the traces. I did notice though that you HAVE TO DO IT while its 
wet. If you try doing it when its dry it will mess up the toner. I 
was even able to get the paper out in the drill holes. I usually 
just let them go and etch as is. But I looked at the board under a 
magnifying glass and its perfect!! No problems with the traces at 
all and no paper! Try it out and let me know how it works for you.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice" 
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> 
> I've done some more ironing experiments.  The toner is sticking to 
the
> board very well in most areas.  With a little practice, it should 
be
> fine.  Problem is that I can't get the paper off without tearing 
off
> the traces.  I've got a TQFP64 package with a bunch of parallel 
runs
> with 5 mils between them.  The toner looks fine, but the paper is
> stuck in the spaces between runs.  I soaked it for an hour, but 
can't
> get the paper out of the cracks without tearing off the runs.
> Larger traces with more space are no problem.
> Suggestions?
> 
> Also, what do people use to touch up missing trace segments, 
pinholes,
> etc.???  Lumocolor 313-2 would do it except that the pen tip is way
> too large.  If I could find a pen that would do the touch up, I'd 
just

> plot with the pen and be done with it.
> 
> What I need is a finepoint system 0.1 pen with etch resistant ink.
> 
> How do the various etchants affect different inks?  I've only used
> FeCl.  Are other etchants easier on the resist?
> 
> Thanks, mike

Bob,

That is an asome suggestion, a true breakthru in the TT process. I am 
using Staples paper with GBC H200, soaking in cold water for an hour 
and removal of paper was difficult and never complete. With your 
suggestion I have no doubt I will be able to have better results. 
Summarizing your observations:
1. Warm water (not hot, but warm). Some people claimed that hot water 
does it- I never believed that although I never tried it)
2. Soap (dishwasher soap) - obvious now.
3. Pencil eraser. - That is is a true innovation!

Thanks for sharing, Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> wrote:
> 
> Last night I was working on a double sided board and I have some 
> traces that are 8mil apart. I too was having a problem with getting 
> the paper out in between the traces and didn't want to rub too hard 
> for fear of ripping up the toner. I let it soak in warm soapy water 
> for about 1/2 hour and then used a pencil eraser (on the end of a 
#2 
> lead pencil) and rubbed where it wasn't comming off. To my surprise 
> it works like a champ. It takes the paper right off and does no 
harm 

> to the traces. I did notice though that you HAVE TO DO IT while its 
> wet. If you try doing it when its dry it will mess up the toner. I 
> was even able to get the paper out in the drill holes. I usually 
> just let them go and etch as is. But I looked at the board under a 
> magnifying glass and its perfect!! No problems with the traces at 
> all and no paper! Try it out and let me know how it works for you.
> 
> 
>

You got the steps correct. I was surprised myself when it started 
taking it off with ease.. For long straight traces that had alot of 
paper still in between, I just rubbed with the traces and it it was 
off in no time. You don't even have to rub hard. The problem was 
trying to get your thumb to get in there.

Let us know how you guys make out with it.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> That is an asome suggestion, a true breakthru in the TT process. I 
am 
> using Staples paper with GBC H200, soaking in cold water for an 
hour 
> and removal of paper was difficult and never complete. With your 
> suggestion I have no doubt I will be able to have better results. 
> Summarizing your observations:
> 1. Warm water (not hot, but warm). Some people claimed that hot 
water 
> does it- I never believed that although I never tried it)
> 2. Soap (dishwasher soap) - obvious now.
> 3. Pencil eraser. - That is is a true innovation!
> 
> Thanks for sharing, Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Last night I was working on a double sided board and I have some 
> > traces that are 8mil apart. I too was having a problem with 
getting 
> > the paper out in between the traces and didn't want to rub too 
hard 
> > for fear of ripping up the toner. I let it soak in warm soapy 
water 
> > for about 1/2 hour and then used a pencil eraser (on the end of 
a 
> #2 
> > lead pencil) and rubbed where it wasn't comming off. To my 
surprise 
> > it works like a champ. It takes the paper right off and does no 
> harm 
> > to the traces. I did notice though that you HAVE TO DO IT while 
its 
> > wet. If you try doing it when its dry it will mess up the toner. 
I 
> > was even able to get the paper out in the drill holes. I usually 
> > just let them go and etch as is. But I looked at the board under 
a 
> > magnifying glass and its perfect!! No problems with the traces 
at 
> > all and no paper! Try it out and let me know how it works for 
you.

> > 
> > 
> >

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:58:20 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> 3. Pencil eraser. - That is is a true innovation!
> Thanks for sharing, Mike


As i suggested some time ago, foam rubber does a similar thing.
If you want to get all the paper off (to make it look good as component  
legend) take a abrasive
plastic pad, but don't do that on copper artwork because it can be hard on  
the toner too.

ST

Yes! I just wanted pepole to see those steps one more time and 
remember them. As simple as your method is, that is what makes it so 
great. We had discussions here for days how to remove that paper with 
suggestions going into etching the paper shreds away...

My paper leftovers were so stubborn that I could never lose them 
completely, now matter how I rubbed.
I know there are many methods that people are very happy with- I 
myself am tweaking the fuser thing out of curiosity, but a simple, 
successful and economical combination for a TT (for me) is:
1. Staples paper mentioned before-Tom Gootee -he reported it here 
first.

2. GBC H200 laminator with detailes how to modify it if you had to: 
www.pulsar.gs they were first to report on that laminator, albeit 
using their custom paper. However considering how much money I put 
into this project I would have been better off buying his transfer 
sheets. My credit goes to bringing the Staples paper and nd GBC 
together and until I can buy a conductive ink printer on ebay, this 
is it (that should be in, err, 20 years?).

3. Bob Weiss eraser method to remove the paper shreds from the etched 
PCB.

4. There was something listed here to remove the laminated toner but 
I don't remember what it was. The usual acetone is just too terrible. 
Maybe it was Stefan's suggestion to use a paint thinner?

5. looking at the fuser after having it removed it is a very neat 
idea for people who cannot get access to H200. The fuser looks very 
robust.

6. There are many neat ideas that other people suggested but I cannot 
recall any at this time. 

Mike




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> wrote:
> 
> You got the steps correct. I was surprised myself when it started 
> taking it off with ease.. For long straight traces that had alot of 
> paper still in between, I just rubbed with the traces and it it was 
> off in no time. You don't even have to rub hard. The problem was 
> trying to get your thumb to get in there.
> 
> Let us know how you guys make out with it.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > Bob,
> > 
> > That is an asome suggestion, a true breakthru in the TT process. 
I 
> am 
> > using Staples paper with GBC H200, soaking in cold water for an 
> hour 
> > and removal of paper was difficult and never complete. With your 
> > suggestion I have no doubt I will be able to have better results. 
> > Summarizing your observations:
> > 1. Warm water (not hot, but warm). Some people claimed that hot 
> water 
> > does it- I never believed that although I never tried it)
> > 2. Soap (dishwasher soap) - obvious now.
> > 3. Pencil eraser. - That is is a true innovation!
> > 
> > Thanks for sharing, Mike
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Last night I was working on a double sided board and I have 
some 
> > > traces that are 8mil apart. I too was having a problem with 
> getting 
> > > the paper out in between the traces and didn't want to rub too 
> hard 
> > > for fear of ripping up the toner. I let it soak in warm soapy 
> water 
> > > for about 1/2 hour and then used a pencil eraser (on the end of 
> a 
> > #2 
> > > lead pencil) and rubbed where it wasn't comming off. To my 
> surprise 
> > > it works like a champ. It takes the paper right off and does no 
> > harm 
> > > to the traces. I did notice though that you HAVE TO DO IT while 
> its 
> > > wet. If you try doing it when its dry it will mess up the 
toner. 
> I 
> > > was even able to get the paper out in the drill holes. I 
usually 
> > > just let them go and etch as is. But I looked at the board 
under 

> a 
> > > magnifying glass and its perfect!! No problems with the traces 
> at 
> > > all and no paper! Try it out and let me know how it works for 
> you.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >

For removing the toner once you etched the board, I use Laquer 
thinner. it comes right off with no effort. 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> 
> Yes! I just wanted pepole to see those steps one more time and 
> remember them. As simple as your method is, that is what makes it 
so 
> great. We had discussions here for days how to remove that paper 
with 
> suggestions going into etching the paper shreds away...
> 
> My paper leftovers were so stubborn that I could never lose them 
> completely, now matter how I rubbed.
> I know there are many methods that people are very happy with- I 
> myself am tweaking the fuser thing out of curiosity, but a simple, 
> successful and economical combination for a TT (for me) is:
> 1. Staples paper mentioned before-Tom Gootee -he reported it here 
> first.
> 
> 2. GBC H200 laminator with detailes how to modify it if you had 
to: 
> www.pulsar.gs they were first to report on that laminator, albeit 
> using their custom paper. However considering how much money I put 
> into this project I would have been better off buying his transfer 
> sheets. My credit goes to bringing the Staples paper and nd GBC 
> together and until I can buy a conductive ink printer on ebay, 
this 
> is it (that should be in, err, 20 years?).
> 
> 3. Bob Weiss eraser method to remove the paper shreds from the 
etched 
> PCB.
> 
> 4. There was something listed here to remove the laminated toner 
but 
> I don't remember what it was. The usual acetone is just too 
terrible. 
> Maybe it was Stefan's suggestion to use a paint thinner?
> 
> 5. looking at the fuser after having it removed it is a very neat 
> idea for people who cannot get access to H200. The fuser looks 
very 
> robust.
> 
> 6. There are many neat ideas that other people suggested but I 
cannot 
> recall any at this time. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > You got the steps correct. I was surprised myself when it 
started 
> > taking it off with ease.. For long straight traces that had alot 
of 
> > paper still in between, I just rubbed with the traces and it it 
was 
> > off in no time. You don't even have to rub hard. The problem was 
> > trying to get your thumb to get in there.
> > 
> > Let us know how you guys make out with it.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Bob,
> > > 
> > > That is an asome suggestion, a true breakthru in the TT 
process. 
> I 
> > am 
> > > using Staples paper with GBC H200, soaking in cold water for 
an 
> > hour 
> > > and removal of paper was difficult and never complete. With 
your 
> > > suggestion I have no doubt I will be able to have better 
results. 
> > > Summarizing your observations:
> > > 1. Warm water (not hot, but warm). Some people claimed that 
hot 
> > water 
> > > does it- I never believed that although I never tried it)
> > > 2. Soap (dishwasher soap) - obvious now.
> > > 3. Pencil eraser. - That is is a true innovation!
> > > 
> > > Thanks for sharing, Mike
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" 
<BWeiss@p...> 
> > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Last night I was working on a double sided board and I have 
> some 
> > > > traces that are 8mil apart. I too was having a problem with 
> > getting 
> > > > the paper out in between the traces and didn't want to rub 
too 
> > hard 
> > > > for fear of ripping up the toner. I let it soak in warm 
soapy 
> > water 
> > > > for about 1/2 hour and then used a pencil eraser (on the end 
of 
> > a 
> > > #2 
> > > > lead pencil) and rubbed where it wasn't comming off. To my 
> > surprise 
> > > > it works like a champ. It takes the paper right off and does 
no 
> > > harm 
> > > > to the traces. I did notice though that you HAVE TO DO IT 
while 
> > its 
> > > > wet. If you try doing it when its dry it will mess up the 
> toner. 
> > I 
> > > > was even able to get the paper out in the drill holes. I 
> usually 
> > > > just let them go and etch as is. But I looked at the board 
> under 
> > a 
> > > > magnifying glass and its perfect!! No problems with the 
traces 
> > at 
> > > > all and no paper! Try it out and let me know how it works 
for 

> > you.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:44:38 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

>
> 4. There was something listed here to remove the laminated toner but
> I don't remember what it was. The usual acetone is just too terrible.
> Maybe it was Stefan's suggestion to use a paint thinner?

I don't know why acetone is terrible, but it attacks the epoxy, leading to  
toner smeared into it.
Paint thinner doesn't do that. From a health point of view acetone is much  
better than paint thinner.

My method is scraping by the way. use another PCB and just scrape the  
toner off.
No solvent at all.


> 5. looking at the fuser after having it removed it is a very neat
> idea for people who cannot get access to H200. The fuser looks very
> robust.

Agreed. The fuser is certainly one of the better methods.
Reduces iron guesswork to zero and number of passes to 1.

> 6. There are many neat ideas that other people suggested but I cannot
> recall any at this time.

You seem rather fixated on the one method, but hey, you find it working  
for you that's fine with me.
Just remember there are many papers, fusers, methods to soak, remove,  
etc...
Using your set of steps does _not_ ensure it will work. Granted, chances  
are higher, but it can fail
all the same and other methods can work all the same.

Maybe you want to set up a page with precise instructions at some point?

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:58:20 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > 3. Pencil eraser. - That is is a true innovation!
> > Thanks for sharing, Mike
> 
> 
> As i suggested some time ago, foam rubber does a similar thing.
> If you want to get all the paper off (to make it look good as
component  
> legend) take a abrasive
> plastic pad, but don't do that on copper artwork because it can be
hard on  
> the toner too.
> 
> ST

Wouldn't this work?
http://www.wwwearables.com/notions/fiberetch/fiber_etch.htm

I don't know if it's appeared on this group before, but it's a gel
that dissolves plant fibers such as those found in natural fabrics and
paper, while leaving synthetic materials (toner?) alone. There may be
other brands, and it might be available in stores like Hobby Lobby.

If the chemical they use can be located and obtained cheaply, perhaps
this would even eliminate the need to peel the paper away and risk
pulling off any traces. It may even remove the need to use photo
coated paper. But for now it's cheap enough to use for removing paper
fibers where the toner is needed for cosmetic reasons.

> Wouldn't this work?
> http://www.wwwearables.com/notions/fiberetch/fiber_etch.htm
>
> I don't know if it's appeared on this group before, but it's a gel
> that dissolves plant fibers such as those found in natural fabrics and
> paper, while leaving synthetic materials (toner?) alone. There may be
> other brands, and it might be available in stores like Hobby Lobby.
>
> If the chemical they use can be located and obtained cheaply, perhaps
> this would even eliminate the need to peel the paper away and risk
> pulling off any traces. It may even remove the need to use photo
> coated paper. But for now it's cheap enough to use for removing paper
> fibers where the toner is needed for cosmetic reasons.
>
>

It's sodium bisulphate.
look here, a custm recepie:
<http://www.maiwa.com/pdf/44-52cat99.pdf>
someone buy it and try it please.

ST

And sodium bisulphate is used in small pools as PH-.
I have some i think, will try tomorrow.

Damn that would be good if i finally had some use for that.
Now let's pray it does any good.


ST

> If the chemical they use can be located and obtained cheaply, perhaps
> this would even eliminate the need to peel the paper away and risk
> pulling off any traces.

It appears that the chemical which destroys the plant fibers is
sulphuric acid. In the case of the product I mentioned above, the
sulphuric acid is produced by applying wet sodium bisulfate to the
surface, allowing to dry, then heating with an iron, which generates
some sulphuric acid within the material. After that, the residue can
be washed away. How well this would work on top of a meltable toner
substrate I don't know. A person could always just use some sulphuric
acid to dissolve the paper, though the sodium bisulfate seems to be
much more attractive from a safety perspective. There is also the
possibility that a lot of sulphuric acid will also get rid of the
toner too.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:44:38 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > 4. There was something listed here to remove the laminated toner but
> > I don't remember what it was. The usual acetone is just too terrible.
> > Maybe it was Stefan's suggestion to use a paint thinner?
> 
> I don't know why acetone is terrible, but it attacks the epoxy,
leading to  
> toner smeared into it.
> Paint thinner doesn't do that. From a health point of view acetone
is much  
> better than paint thinner.

You know, I don't understand why you are having this problem with
acetone.  I use it and it leaves no stains on my FR4 material what so
ever.  I can clean off a botched legend print and go again.  I wonder
if its an issue with the toner or something in the PCB material.  I
recall having trouble with a radio shack copper clad board but that
wasn't FR4 (can't recall what it was).

For me, acetone is worth the precautions it takes to be safe
(ventilation).  It takes the toner off in seconds.  I also use it for
board prep - it degreases the copper perfectly and leaves no residue.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
...
> 
> My paper leftovers were so stubborn that I could never lose them 
> completely, now matter how I rubbed.
> I know there are many methods that people are very happy with- I 
> myself am tweaking the fuser thing out of curiosity, but a simple, 
> successful and economical combination for a TT (for me) is:
> 1. Staples paper mentioned before-Tom Gootee -he reported it here 
> first.

I'm confused here.  I though you said the staples paper released
completely and left no paper residue.

I tried the eraser trick.
Soft non-abraisive eraser is just a thumb that doesn't get sore.
That's useful.
Abrasive eraser takes off anything it can get at.  Unfortunately,
it can't get at the stuff between traces without taking the traces too.
Only thing I've found so far that's even close to working is a
fingernail between traces.  Even that don't work when there are bends.

As for the fiber etch...
With the picture paper, the paper comes off with reasonable ease.
It's the clay coating that's stuck to the toner and the board.
I have no idea the actual composition, but that's what needs to
be dissolved.  Don't think it's organic????
Hmmmm wonder what's in the laundry room for removing dirt??

mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> 
> 
> > Wouldn't this work?
> > http://www.wwwearables.com/notions/fiberetch/fiber_etch.htm
> >
> > I don't know if it's appeared on this group before, but it's a gel
> > that dissolves plant fibers such as those found in natural fabrics and
> > paper, while leaving synthetic materials (toner?) alone. There may be
> > other brands, and it might be available in stores like Hobby Lobby.
> >
> > If the chemical they use can be located and obtained cheaply, perhaps
> > this would even eliminate the need to peel the paper away and risk
> > pulling off any traces. It may even remove the need to use photo
> > coated paper. But for now it's cheap enough to use for removing paper
> > fibers where the toner is needed for cosmetic reasons.
> >
> >
> 
> It's sodium bisulphate.
> look here, a custm recepie:
> <http://www.maiwa.com/pdf/44-52cat99.pdf>
> someone buy it and try it please.
> 
> ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:44:38 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > 4. There was something listed here to remove the laminated toner but
> > > I don't remember what it was. The usual acetone is just too
terrible.
> > > Maybe it was Stefan's suggestion to use a paint thinner?
> > 
> > I don't know why acetone is terrible, but it attacks the epoxy,
> leading to  
> > toner smeared into it.
> > Paint thinner doesn't do that. From a health point of view acetone
> is much  
> > better than paint thinner.
> 
> You know, I don't understand why you are having this problem with
> acetone.  I use it and it leaves no stains on my FR4 material what so
> ever.  I can clean off a botched legend print and go again.  I wonder
> if its an issue with the toner or something in the PCB material.  I
> recall having trouble with a radio shack copper clad board but that
> wasn't FR4 (can't recall what it was).

I think it has to do with the type of board.  I've had this problem
before, too (although it's been a couple of years since I've 
etched any boards).  The acetone seems to melt the toner, and then,
when rubbed, seems to be transported to the board where it soaks in
and refuses to come out.  I've not found that it causes any problems,
other that discolouring the board and making it look not quite as
nice.

> For me, acetone is worth the precautions it takes to be safe
> (ventilation).  It takes the toner off in seconds.  I also use it for
> board prep - it degreases the copper perfectly and leaves no residue.

Don't forget that acetone may also be a liver carcinogen.  It's not
nice to breathe it, or to get it on your skin, since it may be
absorbed through the skin.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <wa4qal@y...> wrote:
...
> I think it has to do with the type of board.  I've had this problem
> before, too (although it's been a couple of years since I've 
> etched any boards).  The acetone seems to melt the toner, and then,
> when rubbed, seems to be transported to the board where it soaks in
> and refuses to come out.  I've not found that it causes any problems,
> other that discolouring the board and making it look not quite as
> nice.
> 
> > For me, acetone is worth the precautions it takes to be safe
> > (ventilation).  It takes the toner off in seconds.  I also use it for
> > board prep - it degreases the copper perfectly and leaves no residue.
> 
> Don't forget that acetone may also be a liver carcinogen.  It's not
> nice to breathe it, or to get it on your skin, since it may be
> absorbed through the skin.

I've been thinking about this some more.  I use a paper towel with a
little acetone on it to wipe off the toner (or clean the copper).  At
most the acetone forms a film on the board for a few seconds and is
then wiped off. The toner comes off very quickly and really doesn't
have much time to stain.  This could be the difference.  Its quite
efficient and uses very little acetone.

On safety with acetone (applies to most chemicals).
1) use only in a well ventilated area (most important) 
2) use chemical resistant gloves
3) use safety glasses
4) use a chemical resistant apron (not strictly necessary for acetone
but I use one anyway).