Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

OHP Film & Laser Printers, UV Laser Diode

2004-10-02 by Thomas

Just a thought here .... has anyone tried to use OHP Film for an Inkjet run through a Laser Printer ?
This CompuColor OHP Film has a Special Coating that turns slimmy and disolves easily when washed in water,
I'm wondering how this would stand up to Laser Printing and the TT method with an Iron or a Laminator.... comments ?

This UV Laser thing has me thinking (dangerous I know) so slap me for bringing this up !! but during a few search's I come across some info that uses a UV Laser Diode in a DVD-R Burner & goes on about Photoresist being part of the Layer that records the Data, if its similar stuff or not i dont know. Maybe the UV Laser is to small and possible the focal point could be changed to get a wider beam for Exposure, sounds easy enough but I bet it aint !!
I quickly checked on some prices for a UV Argon Laser ...scarey !! these sound like they would be capable of turning the PCB into lattice work... ok so the T-Holes and Via's are done with no drilling... great stuff !!!!

Thomas :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Anthony Toft

I am going to be mixing a batch of CuCl etchant today using the recipe
found on the group site. Basically 2:1 3% peroxide:Muriatic Acid. I have
read that I should 'preload' this with some copper, is it necessary?

Also would a used soda bottle be suitable storage for the results? As I
think the etchant will work more than once right?
--
Anthony Toft <toftat@...>
I'm Anton, and I approve this message

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Leon Heller

>From: Anthony Toft <toftat@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching
>Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 07:55:29 -0400
>
>
>I am going to be mixing a batch of CuCl etchant today using the recipe
>found on the group site. Basically 2:1 3% peroxide:Muriatic Acid. I have
>read that I should 'preload' this with some copper, is it necessary?

It will probably speed it up. You aren't really using CuCl etchant, it's HCL
and HO2, and can only be used once. If you treat it properly and get the
chemistry right, it may be turned into CuCl etchant.

>
>Also would a used soda bottle be suitable storage for the results? As I
>think the etchant will work more than once right?

I use plastic milk bottles to store FeCL3 and CuCl etchants. The HCL I've
got came in a plastic bottle.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 07:55:29 -0400, Anthony Toft <toftat@...>
wrote:

>
> I am going to be mixing a batch of CuCl etchant today using the recipe
> found on the group site. Basically 2:1 3% peroxide:Muriatic Acid. I have
> read that I should 'preload' this with some copper, is it necessary?
>
> Also would a used soda bottle be suitable storage for the results? As I
> think the etchant will work more than once right?

You shouldn't store it airtight with oxygen left, it might explode the
bottle.

preloading: no good with that, you have H2O2.

The trouble is 3% H2O2. you can't use it to regenerate the etchant, it has
too much
water. this seems like a one-time recepie. With a lot of luck, and a LOT
of patience
you might be able to use a bubbler and add enough copper to make it a CuCl
etchant.

It is definitely easier to use 30% H2O2 and let it "grow" into CuCl on
it's own.

Long-term storage: a plastic bottle showed funny salts on the outside
after some time(years).
(same with pure HCl) so i use a glass tank and a glass bottle for excess
etchant.

ST

Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller"
<leon_heller@h...> wrote:

>
> >From: Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
> >Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching
> >Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 07:55:29 -0400
> >
> >
> >I am going to be mixing a batch of CuCl etchant today using the

recipe

> >found on the group site. Basically 2:1 3% peroxide:Muriatic Acid.

I have

> >read that I should 'preload' this with some copper, is it

necessary?

>
> It will probably speed it up. You aren't really using CuCl etchant,

it's HCL

> and HO2, and can only be used once. If you treat it properly and

get the

> chemistry right, it may be turned into CuCl etchant.
>
>
> >
> >Also would a used soda bottle be suitable storage for the results?

As I

> >think the etchant will work more than once right?
>
>
> I use plastic milk bottles to store FeCL3 and CuCl etchants. The

HCL I've

> got came in a plastic bottle.
>
> Leon

I store my HCL container inside of a 5 gallon plastic container with
another lid.

Leave a few pieces of copper around your chemicals to see any long
term reaction.

I was getting a nice green on my test strips in a little over a week.

Dave

Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Phil

I did this recently using the same recipe. It worked very well for
the first etching session but a few days later, the etchant was "flat"
(for lack of a better word). No amount of bubbling engergized it. I
had to get 30% H2O2 to get it going again. Note that the initial
etching is not CuCl but probably HCl. I saw a lot of bubbles in mine
- probably Hydrogen. Have good ventilation.

I suggest you mix a smallish batch - 1 L 3% H2O2 + .5 L 30% HCL to
start. You will need a fair amount of 30% H2O2 to regenerate it so
smaller is better.

I'm still hoping that I can bubble to regenerate it.

You might want to store the etchant in the etching vessel. Pouring a
caustic liquid isn't fun.

Note that this brew attacks some plastics - I had left 2 air "stones"
in the etchant and they disintegrated in about 10 days. That was fun
- fishing out the pieces. Also, I was using trimmer line to hold my
boards and the HCl/H2O2 etchant attacked that plastic as well. sigh.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...> wrote:
> I am going to be mixing a batch of CuCl etchant today using the recipe
> found on the group site. Basically 2:1 3% peroxide:Muriatic Acid. I have
> read that I should 'preload' this with some copper, is it necessary?
>
> Also would a used soda bottle be suitable storage for the results? As I
> think the etchant will work more than once right?
> --
> Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
> I'm Anton, and I approve this message

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Anthony Toft

> had to get 30% H2O2 to get it going again. Note that the initial
> etching is not CuCl but probably HCl. I saw a lot of bubbles in mine
> - probably Hydrogen. Have good ventilation.

I was considering doing it outside, I have heard that it releases
Chlorine...

> I suggest you mix a smallish batch - 1 L 3% H2O2 + .5 L 30% HCL to
> start. You will need a fair amount of 30% H2O2 to regenerate it so
> smaller is better.

Where can I get 30% H2O2 from? Will they have it a home depot? I am
hoping to reuse this stuff over and over, to avoid trips to the waste
disposal...

> You might want to store the etchant in the etching vessel. Pouring a
> caustic liquid isn't fun.

This is not an option, it is an open topped flat container that I got in
the radioshack pcb etching kit.

> Note that this brew attacks some plastics - I had left 2 air "stones"

:( is PET (or LDPE) OK?

--
Anthony Toft <toftat@...>
I'm Anton, and I approve this message

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Stefan Trethan

>> Note that this brew attacks some plastics - I had left 2 air "stones"
>
> :( is PET (or LDPE) OK?
>

For some time (months) yes, see my other post, the HCl will form crystals
on the outside in a year or so. glass is better.

ST

Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-02 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...> wrote:
...
> > I suggest you mix a smallish batch - 1 L 3% H2O2 + .5 L 30% HCL to
> > start. You will need a fair amount of 30% H2O2 to regenerate it so
> > smaller is better.
>
> Where can I get 30% H2O2 from? Will they have it a home depot? I am
> hoping to reuse this stuff over and over, to avoid trips to the waste
> disposal...

In Seattle, I found it at a Lab Supply place in the phone book but it
wasn't as cheap as others have reported ($15/4 oz or $40/gal).

>
> This is not an option, it is an open topped flat container that I got in
> the radioshack pcb etching kit.
>

As others have reported, a cereal box container will do fine but it is
big - 1 Gal. Mine was $6.

If etching the board in the horizontal position, be sure to flip it
over several times as well as agitate.

> > Note that this brew attacks some plastics - I had left 2 air "stones"
>
> :( is PET (or LDPE) OK?
>

my container is PET, I believe. Neither the air stones nor the
trimmer line packaging say what it it.

Phil

Re: OHP Film & Laser Printers, UV Laser Diode

2004-10-03 by Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:

> This UV Laser thing has me thinking (dangerous I know) so slap me

for bringing this up !! but during a few search's I come across some
info that uses a UV Laser Diode in a DVD-R Burner & goes on about
Photoresist being part of the Layer that records the Data, if its
similar stuff or not i dont know. Maybe the UV Laser is to small and
possible the focal point could be changed to get a wider beam for
Exposure, sounds easy enough but I bet it aint !!

Possibly more useful than Lasers, Non-laser UV LEDs are available on
Ebay etc for around 10-20c each. They seem to work fine directly off
2x1.5v AA cells. The beam is divergent at an angle of approx 20
degrees on the ones I have. I would imagine that it would be
focussable with relatively inexpensive lenses too, or get a bunch of
fibre optics and adapt an old dot matrix printer :o)

Mike

Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-04 by Phil

Agreed, glass is far better but... 31% HCl is sold in the US
(probably elsewhere) in plastic gallon bottles. I've had one sitting
in my basement from when I finished my remodel and they acid washed
the brick. Its about 1/2 full and no problems (no residue, container
was fine). SG test showed it to have the correct SG. My remodel was
finished 3 years ago. The recycle logo (2) on the bottle says it HDPE.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>
>
> >> Note that this brew attacks some plastics - I had left 2 air "stones"
> >
> > :( is PET (or LDPE) OK?
> >
>
> For some time (months) yes, see my other post, the HCl will form

crystals

> on the outside in a year or so. glass is better.
>
> ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-04 by Adam Seychell

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>
>
>>>Note that this brew attacks some plastics - I had left 2 air "stones"
>>
>>:( is PET (or LDPE) OK?
>>
>
>
> For some time (months) yes, see my other post, the HCl will form crystals
> on the outside in a year or so. glass is better.
>
> ST
>

Nylon is a commonly used plastic that doesn't survive in acid.
Identifying plastics can be done with the burn test. To check if nylon
burn some of it and note the smell, color of smoke and the effect on the
plastic as its burning. Then burn your unknown sample. Nylon burns with
white smoke, and bubbles while on fire.

I once used some irrigation plastic hose fittings to carry sulfuric
acid. After a few weeks the fittings disintegrated leaking 20 liters of
acid on the floor. I later learned they were nylon, so I went shopping
with a cigarette lighter and burned various brands of hose fittings
until I found ones that were polypropylene.

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching

2004-10-04 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 02:02:17 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

>
>
> Agreed, glass is far better but... 31% HCl is sold in the US
> (probably elsewhere) in plastic gallon bottles. I've had one sitting
> in my basement from when I finished my remodel and they acid washed
> the brick. Its about 1/2 full and no problems (no residue, container
> was fine). SG test showed it to have the correct SG. My remodel was
> finished 3 years ago. The recycle logo (2) on the bottle says it HDPE.
>

Same here. But after years (2 or 3) salt forms on the ouside of the
bottle.
also the plastic gets dimples. i put it in a cutoff "outer" bottle so i
needn't touch
the salts. Not a problem but it is very slightly attacked. The salts
seemed to form faster on the bottle i used to store the CuCl, which was a
PP bottle i think.
I wonder a lot about this hcl brick washing thing. I hear it so often i
must ask
google for a description.

ST

Re: OHP Film & Laser Printers

2004-10-04 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:

> Just a thought here .... has anyone tried to use OHP Film for an

Inkjet run through a Laser Printer ?

> This CompuColor OHP Film has a Special Coating that turns slimmy and

disolves easily when washed in water,

> I'm wondering how this would stand up to Laser Printing and the TT

method with an Iron or a Laminator.... comments ?

>

I tried. The problem is that it is difficult to get water to go under
the film.

Steve

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching - the aftermath

2004-10-06 by Anthony Toft

Well, I got about half a pint of HCl from a friend with a pool (I could
only buy 2 gallons minimum) and made ~150ml of etchant (100ml of 3%
H202, 50ml of 31.5% HCl) and it worked like a charm, what a difference
new etchant makes, my tired old FeCl would have taken 20+ minutes, this
took 5-10!

I have some questions...

This appeared to be exothermic (it made it's own heat) will this stop?
What is causing it (I think it's the reaction with the H202)? Will it
produce heat next time?

There are bubbles in my storage container (I didn't aerate), what are
they? Will they eventually explode the bottle if I don't vent them off?
It's in a pint bottle that usually contains water.

Why did my latex gloves turn yellow where they got etchant on them?

Other than those questions I am extremely happy with the etchant, it was
cool to see it turn green, I was also watching it eat the copper off the
board.

Thanks to Denny for posting the recipe and for others answering my
pre-etch questions...

I will be upsizing to a ceriel container, but right now I don't do
enough boards, or big enough to warrant keeping a gallon of etchant
around.

--
Anthony Toft <toftat@...>
I'm Anton, and I approve this message

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching - the aftermath

2004-10-06 by Stefan Trethan

> I have some questions...
>
> This appeared to be exothermic (it made it's own heat) will this stop?
> What is causing it (I think it's the reaction with the H202)? Will it
> produce heat next time?

Yes, it is the reaction. it will not heat up if you have less H2O2.
Be careful, such etchants have "gone throught the wall" it is said and
also killed people. Not sure it that is true. But if you get too much heat
you
are in for trouble (HCl has a very low boiling point!). Always put your
etchant conainer
into another, much bigger. Make sure you have a bucket of water nearby
with which
you could thin and cool the etchant.
Note that metals are kinf of a catalyst for H2O2 reactions - so take the
copper
out if it gets too hot.

>
> There are bubbles in my storage container (I didn't aerate), what are
> they? Will they eventually explode the bottle if I don't vent them off?
> It's in a pint bottle that usually contains water.

They are probably oxygen. You have used too much H2O2. I have read that
they may
explode a bottle but i'm not sure if they do if there is no metal in it.
I have made the tiniest of holes in my storage bottle lid, and
additionally glued
a second lid on top, with another hole, and stuffed the space between with
foam.
(to prevent spills if you topple the bottle over and to limit gas exchange
rate.)
Another option would be a rubber pressure valve over the hole.

>
> Why did my latex gloves turn yellow where they got etchant on them?

They always do, i don't know.

>
> Other than those questions I am extremely happy with the etchant, it was
> cool to see it turn green, I was also watching it eat the copper off the
> board.

You are using too much H2O2. I know it, i timed a small board once with
11 seconds ;-). At the beginning you will always have slight gassing
because there
is simply too little CuCl. That will go away eventually.

ST

Re: CuCl etching - the aftermath

2004-10-06 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...> wrote:

> Well, I got about half a pint of HCl from a friend with a pool (I could
> only buy 2 gallons minimum) and made ~150ml of etchant (100ml of 3%
> H202, 50ml of 31.5% HCl) and it worked like a charm, what a difference
> new etchant makes, my tired old FeCl would have taken 20+ minutes, this
> took 5-10!

Glad to hear of your success. That's definitely the HCL doing the
etching. You can get 1 G quantities at home depot, lowes, ...

>
> This appeared to be exothermic (it made it's own heat) will this stop?
> What is causing it (I think it's the reaction with the H202)? Will it
> produce heat next time?

I did not see it first time I used that etchant though I used about 3
liters so it could have masked heat production. HCl boils around 50 C
so you definitely dont want the etchant warming up. Note that mixing
acid and water is exothermic. always add acid to water, never water
to acid.

>
> There are bubbles in my storage container (I didn't aerate), what are
> they? Will they eventually explode the bottle if I don't vent them off?
> It's in a pint bottle that usually contains water.

I noticed bubbles when I had plenty of H2O2. It will eventully go
flat. I doubt that it will build up that much pressure but for piece
of mind, you can leave the lid slightly loose.

>
> Why did my latex gloves turn yellow where they got etchant on them?

Probably CuCl. I would recommend something beefier than latex gloves.
I use heavy duty ones intended for masons using HCl for acid washing.
I'm going to get a lab apron next time I hit the chem supply place.

I'm interested in your second etching session. If its anything like
mine (hope not) you will have to add H2O2. My sessions with the same
recipe went something like this:

first session (3 L) - etched 6 boards, lots bubbling, fast etching,
odd discolorations of the copper (purple, black streaking).

2nd session (about 5 days later) - no etching at all. Left a small
strip of copper clad in overnight there was very very slight etching.
Discovered that etchant eats "airstone' plastics - makes a big mess.
SG was 1.075 (way low)

3rd session (next day) - divided mixture in half (1.5 L), added 2 oz
of 30% h2o2. Good etching action, some bubbles but took longer, maybe
25 minutes/board. Did 3 boards 15X20 cm. SG after was 1.1.

4th session (3 days later) - no etching added 2 oz h2o2. good action
some bubbles.

5th session (2/3 days later - tonight) - no etching. I made a new
bubbler and bubbled the etchant overnight. Tried again the next day.
slow etching (I was out of the h2o2). It took 35 minutes to do one
15x10 cm board. Etchant was a dark olive green. I left the bubbler
on overnight - I really hope I can regen this stuff with out using
H2O2. I'll check the SG tomorrow and hope that I see emerald green...

I'm not super happy with this stuff yet. If I can either find a cheap
source of H2O2 or regen via bubbling, I will be much happier. As it
stands, having to buy H2O2 at $4/oz really is bad economics. But if
it can be made to work the the displosal benefits will make it all
worthwhile.

Phil

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: CuCl etching - the aftermath

2004-10-06 by Anthony Toft

> Glad to hear of your success. That's definitely the HCL doing the
> etching. You can get 1 G quantities at home depot, lowes, ...

They had 2 one gallon containers sold together in a box. As I told my
pool owner friend, if I thought I'd use even half of it I wouldn't have
minded, but it's a little excessive when I really only wanted approx 1.5
ounces, and I'd have to move it in a months time (changing houses)

> acid and water is exothermic. always add acid to water, never water

This I remembered from chemistry class, but I didn't have a definate
water, so I added HCl to H202 figuring adding less to more was
preferable (and at 3% the H2O2 had more water in it) I also did this
outside in the Florida humidity, the HCl container was 'steaming' after
use...

> I noticed bubbles when I had plenty of H2O2. It will eventully go

Ok, so I won't worry about it.

> flat. I doubt that it will build up that much pressure but for piece
> of mind, you can leave the lid slightly loose.

I will squeeze the bottle before sealing it, give the gas somewhere to
go.

> Probably CuCl. I would recommend something beefier than latex gloves.

These are the onetime use ones they use in labs, then they hit the
trash.

> I'm going to get a lab apron next time I hit the chem supply place.

I wore old clothes in case of splashes and took great care. A friend at
work used to work with chemicals and has plenty of horror stories (hence
working outside, gloves and safety glasses)

> I'm interested in your second etching session. If its anything like
> mine (hope not) you will have to add H2O2. My sessions with the same
> recipe went something like this:

This might not happen for a few months, there isn't much on my project
list at the moment, I can say that at the moment it's a gumball green. I
haven't found higher H2O2 yet, so if it refuses I will seed some new
stuff and just add it to my waste bottle. When I have a bunch I will
take it to the waste disposal. As I said, I don't use much...

> I'm not super happy with this stuff yet. If I can either find a cheap

My main happy was that I could see what was going on.

> stands, having to buy H2O2 at $4/oz really is bad economics. But if

Ouch!

> it can be made to work the the displosal benefits will make it all
> worthwhile.

That's what I am hoping for, I regen'ed my FeCl several times before it
just didn't work any more (about 1 year later) but I'd rather not throw
it away if possible.

--
Anthony Toft <toftat@...>
I'm Anton, and I approve this message

Re: CuCl etching - the aftermath

2004-10-06 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...> wrote:

> I wore old clothes in case of splashes and took great care. A friend at
> work used to work with chemicals and has plenty of horror stories (hence
> working outside, gloves and safety glasses)

You'll think that's a good idea until you get a heavy splash on you
and find your clothes hold it against your skin. You need something
impermeable protecting you.

There are recipies in the Files section on how to precharge with CuCl
by using several different things, one being these burn sticks you
toss in a fireplace or wood stove to burn out the gunk built up in the
chimney.

Steve Greenfield

CuCl etching

2005-02-26 by Naveed Alam

I am using CuCl for etching a normal copper board. Which type of marker can I use for this purpose? Is anything workable or is there a special type of marker to draw the schematic lines.

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching

2005-02-26 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:32:11 -0800 (PST), Naveed Alam
<naveedguy2@...> wrote:

>
> I am using CuCl for etching a normal copper board. Which type of marker
> can I use for this purpose? Is anything workable or is there a special
> type of marker to draw the schematic lines.

You can use various permanent markers (staedtler red OHP permanent works
best).
Keep the HCl molarity low or it will eat your pen away.

Note that most people these days use a PC to generate the layout and
transfer it to the PCB in some way.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching

2005-02-26 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Naveed Alam" <naveedguy2@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 4:32 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] CuCl etching

>
>
> I am using CuCl for etching a normal copper board. Which type of marker
> can I use for this purpose? Is anything workable or is there a special
> type of marker to draw the schematic lines.

Any permanent waterproof marker should be OK. Staedtler permanent Lumocolor
is very good.

Leon

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