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Laser Printer mods & Laser's

Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by Thomas

Hi All
Has anyone done or know if its possible to modify a Laser printer to print directly onto the PCB with Toner ?
or would a Regular Laser Beam Like those cheapo "Laser pointers" expose the Photoresist coating on a Presensitised PCB as I have a small XY table that would be suitable for such a CNC venture,  I was looking at Duponts website and they talk about a UV Argon Laser for LBI ...if the price was right it would be the ultimate Homebrew PCB'ers dream http://www.dupont.com/pcm/riston/laserseries.html

Regards
Thomas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:
> Hi All
> Has anyone done or know if its possible to modify a Laser printer 
to print directly onto the PCB with Toner ?
> or would a Regular Laser Beam Like those cheapo "Laser pointers" 
expose the Photoresist coating on a Presensitised PCB as I have a 
small XY table that would be suitable for such a CNC venture,  I was 
looking at Duponts website and they talk about a UV Argon Laser for 
LBI ...if the price was right it would be the ultimate Homebrew 
PCB'ers dream http://www.dupont.com/pcm/riston/laserseries.html
> 
> Regards
> Thomas
> 

The toner is transfered to the drum inside the laser and then to the 
paper.  the toner is moved and held in place with a slight electrical 
charge.   The copper of the board would stop the process.

But... there may be a way to cover the board with a non-conducting 
film and print on that.

In my opnion, the best chance we have of a direct print is ink-jet.  
They already make ink-jet printers for printing on things like belts 
and hoses and metals and boxes.   

It seems that we have just not found a good combination of printhead 
and ink.

Dave

Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by #@!%! Herzog

The real problem is that the toner is unlikely to resist the etching 
solution.  Inkjet ink probably will no resist corrosives either.

The best way to do this is to print a transparent real size image on 
a clear material in the laser printer. 

Then, use a photo-silkscreen to transfer a printalble image (the part 
exposed to light solidifies, the unexposed washes away). 

(Later, you can remove the whole image with bleach, re-apply photo-
sensitive emulsion and create another photo-silk screen with the same 
screen again and again.)

Then print with any acid/ferric chloride resistant media (your choice 
depends on cost and cost of removing after etching - good old shelac 
dissolves easily in alcohol or you can buy more expensive rosin 
formulas from an art supply used for etching copper plate for art 
prints).

Also, the toner is a thermoplastic powder that is melted onto the 
paper after printing.  How do you expect to remove it from the copper 
after the etch?

Sorry if you alread kwow all this - it is tradional technology.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:
> > Hi All
> > Has anyone done or know if its possible to modify a Laser printer 
> to print directly onto the PCB with Toner ?
> > or would a Regular Laser Beam Like those cheapo "Laser pointers" 
> expose the Photoresist coating on a Presensitised PCB as I have a 
> small XY table that would be suitable for such a CNC venture,  I 
was 
> looking at Duponts website and they talk about a UV Argon Laser for 
> LBI ...if the price was right it would be the ultimate Homebrew 
> PCB'ers dream http://www.dupont.com/pcm/riston/laserseries.html
> > 
> > Regards
> > Thomas
> > 
> 
> The toner is transfered to the drum inside the laser and then to 
the 
> paper.  the toner is moved and held in place with a slight 
electrical 
> charge.   The copper of the board would stop the process.
> 
> But... there may be a way to cover the board with a non-conducting 
> film and print on that.
> 
> In my opnion, the best chance we have of a direct print is ink-
jet.  
> They already make ink-jet printers for printing on things like 
belts 
> and hoses and metals and boxes.   
> 
> It seems that we have just not found a good combination of 
printhead 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> and ink.
> 
> Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by Thomas

Hi
there must be a bunch of folk working on this PCB thing try'n to perfect the process with Lasers and InkJets thats for sure, 
I have a cheapo Canon S200SPx Printer that comes apart in a nice way and will accept a PCB no probs would be a good starting point as the fram could easily  mount up a Linear guide to support the PCB as I have a few double sided boards to do if the Ink Thing was sorted out, I tried a Permanent Ink from Artline Xylene Free stuff but it wouldn't flow very well from the P-Head it probably dried to quick & wrong viscosity as well..... anyway I soaked the P-Head in Denatured Alcohol and got it working again, just maybe I should try again with various Mixture's of Denatured Alcohol & Ink to get it flowing, 
Has any one come close with mixing various inks etc ?
any Idea what all these Inks contain  or where to get more info on them ?
I like the sound of the Direct Ink Printer as some of these are wax based ... needs more investigation, 

last year at a Manufacturing Exhibition here in Jakarta I watched a Demo with a 3D Printer it Melted the wax as it was deposited onto the Table (Z Axis) and the Print Head (XY Axis) zipped about building up this Model, after each pass it shaved a tiny wisker off in preparation for the next layer, I wished that I had taken more notice of the brand of the Machine and the Wax it used the price was around SG$20,000 I remember, not the average Homebrewers  deal !!

Thomas
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave Mucha 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 9:39 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's


  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:
  > Hi All
  > Has anyone done or know if its possible to modify a Laser printer 
  to print directly onto the PCB with Toner ?
  > or would a Regular Laser Beam Like those cheapo "Laser pointers" 
  expose the Photoresist coating on a Presensitised PCB as I have a 
  small XY table that would be suitable for such a CNC venture,  I was 
  looking at Duponts website and they talk about a UV Argon Laser for 
  LBI ...if the price was right it would be the ultimate Homebrew 
  PCB'ers dream http://www.dupont.com/pcm/riston/laserseries.html
  > 
  > Regards
  > Thomas
  > 

  The toner is transfered to the drum inside the laser and then to the 
  paper.  the toner is moved and held in place with a slight electrical 
  charge.   The copper of the board would stop the process.

  But... there may be a way to cover the board with a non-conducting 
  film and print on that.

  In my opnion, the best chance we have of a direct print is ink-jet.  
  They already make ink-jet printers for printing on things like belts 
  and hoses and metals and boxes.   

  It seems that we have just not found a good combination of printhead 
  and ink.

  Dave





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "#@!%! Herzog" <hwanghetw@y...>
wrote:
> The real problem is that the toner is unlikely to resist the etching 
> solution.  Inkjet ink probably will no resist corrosives either.
> 

really?  all this time I must be imagining toner transfer.

Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "#@!%! Herzog" <hwanghetw@y...> 
wrote:
> The real problem is that the toner is unlikely to resist the 
etching 
> solution.  

This is incorrect.   Half of this list if filled with people who use 
laser toner as a resist on a weekly basis.  It is THE simple way to 
get started.

Toner is basiscally plastic and totally resists the etching solution.

> Inkjet ink probably will not resist corrosives either.

This is dependant on the ink.   


> The best way to do this is to print a transparent real size image 
on 
> a clear material in the laser printer. 
> 
> Then, use a photo-silkscreen to transfer a printalble image (the 
part 
> exposed to light solidifies, the unexposed washes away). 
> 
> (Later, you can remove the whole image with bleach, re-apply photo-
> sensitive emulsion and create another photo-silk screen with the 
same 
> screen again and again.)
> 
> Then print with any acid/ferric chloride resistant media (your 
choice 
> depends on cost and cost of removing after etching - good old 
shelac 
> dissolves easily in alcohol or you can buy more expensive rosin 
> formulas from an art supply used for etching copper plate for art 
> prints).
> 
> Also, the toner is a thermoplastic powder that is melted onto the 
> paper after printing.  How do you expect to remove it from the 
copper 
> after the etch?
> 
> Sorry if you alread kwow all this - it is tradional technology.

This method is traditional, but overly complicated for those of us 
who want simple.

the direct laser techonolgy is still a far off hope.

Direct ink-jet is just waiting to be done.   There really is no 
technical reason why it cannot be done.   Look at your motor fan 
belt.  it is printed with an inkjet onto the rubber and it is 
probablly a few years old and still readable.

The problem we are running into is that the current low cost ink jet 
printers are desigend for a specific pigment size and viscosity ink.

The permanent inks like in your resist pen are not widely available 
and latex or enamel or other type inks/paints are not made with micro-
fine particles.

Currently there is a whole industry that prints on everything from 
cardboard boxes to tools with a very permanent ink-jet.

Also, there is a thermal wax transfer printer that may be a 
candidate, but is not available in mass as yet.

One option that is possible, but not often discussed is 
photosensitive boards and direct laser exposure.   This would skip 
the toner, but require photo sensitive boards.   Since a laser 
printer already has both the accuracy and speed, this too is just a 
technology ready to be cracked.

Dave

Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-29 by Phil

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the list of problems to crack
is alignment for double sided resist application.  I know that if you
take a piece of paper, print on it and then print the same thing on
the same side you will see some "mis-registration".  I'd guess its in
the 10-20 mil range on my copier though I'm sure it varies with each
printer/copier as well as the age of the transport mechanism.  My
latest inkjet (canon pixma 4000) is suprisingly good on this front so
it is possible.

I guess once we get to a working single sided application, some one
will figure out double sided.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-30 by Dave Hylands

Hi Phil,

Most of this mis-registration is caused by the paper changing size. The
misregsistration is much more noticable in humid climates, than in dry
climates. The heater in the laser printer will drive out any moisture in
the paper. If you print a blank page and then feed the same paper back
through the laser printer, then you should get better front/back
registration.

Printing on plastic, you generally don't have a problem (because there's
no moisture in the plastic to drive away). Ink Jets don't require heat,
which is also why they work well.

--
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/ 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil [mailto:phil1960us@...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:41 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the list of problems to crack
> is alignment for double sided resist application.  I know that if you
> take a piece of paper, print on it and then print the same thing on
> the same side you will see some "mis-registration".  I'd guess its in
> the 10-20 mil range on my copier though I'm sure it varies with each
> printer/copier as well as the age of the transport mechanism.  My
> latest inkjet (canon pixma 4000) is suprisingly good on this front so
> it is possible.
> 
> I guess once we get to a working single sided application, some one
> will figure out double sided.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-30 by Dwayne Reid

At 05:41 PM 9/29/2004, Phil wrote:

>One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the list of problems to crack
>is alignment for double sided resist application.  I know that if you
>take a piece of paper, print on it and then print the same thing on
>the same side you will see some "mis-registration".  I'd guess its in
>the 10-20 mil range on my copier though I'm sure it varies with each
>printer/copier as well as the age of the transport mechanism.

I've previously mentioned (many times) the simple technique we've been 
using for more than 20 years:

Take a scrap of copper clad PCB material and make an L shaped piece with 3" 
X 4" long legs about 3/4" wide.  In other words, shaped like a carpenter's 
square.

Tape one of the pieces of artwork to both arms.  Flip the whole thing over 
and very carefully line up the other piece of artwork.  Tape one edge only 
- to the longer arm.  The tape is your hinge.

I like to leave about 1/4" of border around all sides of the PCB.  Be sure 
to place the artwork such that you leave at least some border - don't try 
to position the edges of the finished board right at the edge of the L 
shaped holder.

Tuck your board into the pocket formed by the artwork and holder.  Process 
as normal.  Be sure to feed one edge of the "L" first.

The reason this works so well is that the "L" is exactly the same thickness 
as the PCB material.  Because the "L" is tucked right up to the PCB, it 
doesn't slip or move when it goes under the rollers.

I've used this technique for aligning the transparencies used for making 
boards with the photo process since the mid '70s.  It also works just fine 
when laminating directly onto the board.  I routinely get boards with 
registration errors barely or not visible to the naked eye.

dwayne

-- 
Dwayne Reid   <dwayner@...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 20 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2004)
  .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-
     `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-30 by Phil

thanks dwayne, I was refering to direct to copper resist printing.  a
theoretical exercise today.

I'm getting great registration for double sided toner transfer using a
light box to align.  When I went to a laminator, I had problems with
the laminator rollers disturbing the alignment.  Some one here
suggested using a paper carrier which works great.  problem solved.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...> wrote:
> At 05:41 PM 9/29/2004, Phil wrote:
> 
> >One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the list of problems to crack
> >is alignment for double sided resist application.  I know that if you
> >take a piece of paper, print on it and then print the same thing on
> >the same side you will see some "mis-registration".  I'd guess its in
> >the 10-20 mil range on my copier though I'm sure it varies with each
> >printer/copier as well as the age of the transport mechanism.
> 
> I've previously mentioned (many times) the simple technique we've been 
> using for more than 20 years:
> 
> Take a scrap of copper clad PCB material and make an L shaped piece
with 3" 
> X 4" long legs about 3/4" wide.  In other words, shaped like a
carpenter's 
> square.
> 
> Tape one of the pieces of artwork to both arms.  Flip the whole
thing over 
> and very carefully line up the other piece of artwork.  Tape one
edge only 
> - to the longer arm.  The tape is your hinge.
> 
> I like to leave about 1/4" of border around all sides of the PCB. 
Be sure 
> to place the artwork such that you leave at least some border -
don't try 
> to position the edges of the finished board right at the edge of the L 
> shaped holder.
> 
> Tuck your board into the pocket formed by the artwork and holder. 
Process 
> as normal.  Be sure to feed one edge of the "L" first.
> 
> The reason this works so well is that the "L" is exactly the same
thickness 
> as the PCB material.  Because the "L" is tucked right up to the PCB, it 
> doesn't slip or move when it goes under the rollers.
> 
> I've used this technique for aligning the transparencies used for
making 
> boards with the photo process since the mid '70s.  It also works
just fine 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> when laminating directly onto the board.  I routinely get boards with 
> registration errors barely or not visible to the naked eye.
> 
> dwayne
> 
> -- 
> Dwayne Reid   <dwayner@p...>
> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
> (780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
> 
> Celebrating 20 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2004)
>   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-
>      `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'
> Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
> This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
> commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer mods & Laser's

2004-09-30 by Stefan Trethan

>
> The toner is transfered to the drum inside the laser and then to the
> paper.  the toner is moved and held in place with a slight electrical
> charge.   The copper of the board would stop the process.

Not 100% true, but 50%.
remember? i printed on aluminum foil and 50% still transferred due to  
gravity and
pure luck. No enough toner with my machine, 50%.
The pickup charge is shorted, you are right.



>
> But... there may be a way to cover the board with a non-conducting
> film and print on that.

The large ground plane would still cause trouble with that charge.

>
> In my opnion, the best chance we have of a direct print is ink-jet.
> They already make ink-jet printers for printing on things like belts
> and hoses and metals and boxes.
>
> It seems that we have just not found a good combination of printhead
> and ink.
>
> Dave
>


I agree! i have this epson piezo printer sitting around just waiting until  
one
finds a ink. i tried staedtler red and it didn't work out.
There must be a ink!

ST