Homebrew PCBs

I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my cupric
chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
requirements regarding storage!

Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001" 
<grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my 
cupric
> chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
> requirements regarding storage!
> 
> Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?
> 
> Grant

I would check other smaller hardware stores.


Is it used in any industries like floor cleaning or stone/granate 
places ? then you could go to suppliers in those inducstries.




Dave

In some locales it is used to treat swimming pools, the Home Depot
stuff was used to clear drains (I think) and treat new concrete
floors. There is one other big chain like Home Deport, Rona, and their
website says they sell it. 

The less time I spend looking for the damn stuff the better, is why I
asked. I hope someone who knows for sure will give me the info (if
Rona falls through). 

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001" 
> <grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> > I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my 
> cupric
> > chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
> > requirements regarding storage!
> > 
> > Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?
> > 
> > Grant
> 
> I would check other smaller hardware stores.
> 
> 
> Is it used in any industries like floor cleaning or stone/granate 
> places ? then you could go to suppliers in those inducstries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave

HCl is cheap you can just buy a 25L drum for few more dollars than 5L 
from a hardware store. Look up your local business directory under 
building supplies and anyplace who deals with bricks should also sell 
HCl as cleaner.

Adam


grantfair2001 wrote:

> In some locales it is used to treat swimming pools, the Home Depot
> stuff was used to clear drains (I think) and treat new concrete
> floors. There is one other big chain like Home Deport, Rona, and their
> website says they sell it. 
> 
> The less time I spend looking for the damn stuff the better, is why I
> asked. I hope someone who knows for sure will give me the info (if
> Rona falls through). 
> 
> Grant
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> wrote:
> 
>>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001" 
>><grant.fair@s...> wrote:
>>
>>>I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my 
>>
>>cupric
>>
>>>chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
>>>requirements regarding storage!
>>>
>>>Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?
>>>
>>>Grant
>>
>>I would check other smaller hardware stores.
>>
>>
>>Is it used in any industries like floor cleaning or stone/granate 
>>places ? then you could go to suppliers in those inducstries.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>

Twenty-five litres? I thought 5 litres would be a life-time supply! I
haven't adjusted the cupric choride I have in the big picnic cooler
since I made the solution, and I have made lots of boards in it since,
but it seems to be slowing, so it's time to check the density and
titrate to determine acidity level.

How the heck am I going to use 25 litres, do you imagine?

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
wrote:

> HCl is cheap you can just buy a 25L drum for few more dollars than 5L 
> from a hardware store. Look up your local business directory under 
> building supplies and anyplace who deals with bricks should also sell 
> HCl as cleaner.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> grantfair2001 wrote:
> > In some locales it is used to treat swimming pools, the Home Depot
> > stuff was used to clear drains (I think) and treat new concrete
> > floors. There is one other big chain like Home Deport, Rona, and their
> > website says they sell it. 
> > 
> > The less time I spend looking for the damn stuff the better, is why I
> > asked. I hope someone who knows for sure will give me the info (if
> > Rona falls through). 
> > 
> > Grant
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001" 
> >><grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my 
> >>
> >>cupric
> >>
> >>>chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
> >>>requirements regarding storage!
> >>>
> >>>Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?
> >>>
> >>>Grant
> >>
> >>I would check other smaller hardware stores.
> >>
> >>
> >>Is it used in any industries like floor cleaning or stone/granate 
> >>places ? then you could go to suppliers in those inducstries.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Dave
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >

PS Today a friend gave me a few litres he had left over from stuff he
got to adjust the ph of his swimming pool.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
wrote:

> HCl is cheap you can just buy a 25L drum for few more dollars than 5L 
> from a hardware store. Look up your local business directory under 
> building supplies and anyplace who deals with bricks should also sell 
> HCl as cleaner.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> grantfair2001 wrote:
> > In some locales it is used to treat swimming pools, the Home Depot
> > stuff was used to clear drains (I think) and treat new concrete
> > floors. There is one other big chain like Home Deport, Rona, and their
> > website says they sell it. 
> > 
> > The less time I spend looking for the damn stuff the better, is why I
> > asked. I hope someone who knows for sure will give me the info (if
> > Rona falls through). 
> > 
> > Grant
> > 


> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001" 
> >><grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my 
> >>
> >>cupric
> >>
> >>>chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
> >>>requirements regarding storage!
> >>>
> >>>Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?
> >>>
> >>>Grant
> >>
> >>I would check other smaller hardware stores.
> >>
> >>
> >>Is it used in any industries like floor cleaning or stone/granate 
> >>places ? then you could go to suppliers in those inducstries.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Dave
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
<grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> Twenty-five litres? I thought 5 litres would be a life-time supply! I
> haven't adjusted the cupric choride I have in the big picnic cooler
> since I made the solution, and I have made lots of boards in it since,
> but it seems to be slowing, so it's time to check the density and
> titrate to determine acidity level.
> 
> How the heck am I going to use 25 litres, do you imagine?
> 
> Grant

The stuff you get from a hardware store is muriatic acid, about 31%
HCl concentration. It's not the nastiest chemical ever, but it's about
the nastiest you can easily find for sale. Should be treated with
respect. Use it outside or with lots of ventilation, away from any
metals you don't want rusted or dulled by the vapors. You don't really
dilute it that much to etch PCBs, but it is pretty cheap. When you add
the H2O2, it'll start outgassing. Don't breathe that stuff, it'll chew
up your lungs and throat. Always add the acid to water, not the other
way around. Keep a bucket of water and an open box of baking soda
nearby to dilute and neutralize any accidents. Don't ever put aluminum
into the etchant mixture, it violently outgasses hydrogen and produces
a lot of heat: bad combination for something happening in a tank of
corrosive acid. You also don't want to leave mixed etchant sitting
around, it'll degrade pretty quickly.

So...HCl works and is cheap, but can be a bit of a pain to use. Of
course there are other neat things you can do with your HCl, including
some interesting metal etching/rusting and wood finishing effects.

> The stuff you get from a hardware store is muriatic acid, about 31%
> HCl concentration. It's not the nastiest chemical ever, but it's about
> the nastiest you can easily find for sale. Should be treated with
> respect. Use it outside or with lots of ventilation, away from any
> metals you don't want rusted or dulled by the vapors. You don't really
> dilute it that much to etch PCBs, but it is pretty cheap. When you add
> the H2O2, it'll start outgassing.

If there is any gassing you have WAY too much H2O2 and probably also too  
much HCl
concentration.


> Don't breathe that stuff, it'll chew
> up your lungs and throat. Always add the acid to water, not the other
> way around. Keep a bucket of water and an open box of baking soda
> nearby to dilute and neutralize any accidents. Don't ever put aluminum
> into the etchant mixture, it violently outgasses hydrogen and produces
> a lot of heat: bad combination for something happening in a tank of
> corrosive acid. You also don't want to leave mixed etchant sitting
> around, it'll degrade pretty quickly.

Only the H2O2 will outgass oxygen.
You should only add "just enough" oxygen to keep the etchant regenerated.
You can store it forever, but excess H2O2 is lost. So simply do not add  
any excess.
Once you have enough copper in it you don't need to add H2O2 each time.
I have my tank filled with 1 liter and i only add H2O2 each second etch,  
with
weeks in between (That means it works without H2O2 once enough CuCl is in  
there,
you only need the H2O2 to free the Cl from HCl. The Cl combines with Cu to  
make
two CuCl out of one Cu2Cl (or some such thing i don't understand)).
I have never dumped the Tank contents, it is good for years, but keeps  
growing.


>
> So...HCl works and is cheap, but can be a bit of a pain to use.

HCl and H2O2 "until it bubbles like hell" is a pain to use.
Properly used CuCl etchant regenerated wih H2O2 is very convenient.
Much bettter than all other etchants, IMO, because it's cheap and you
never need to exchange it.
Read in the links section, CuCl, how to use it properly.
The recepies will suggest adding CuCl powder, forget about that and
simply start with "clean" HCl and H2O2, and water, and gradually bring the
copper up by etching boards. You need to add H2O2 each time until there is  
enough
CuCl solved.

ST

I am using CuCL as an etchant and this needs no H2O2 at all. I have
had about 15 litres sitting in a plastic picnic cooler for over 6
months and it is just fine. Whenever I need it, it is there and it has
never failed me, so your warning about etchant deteriorating is not
warranted for CuCL. The solution does need periodic additions of water
and HCl to maintain it, but so far it has not needed any of these.
Onygenating is important, but vigrous passage of air through the CuCL
during etching has been enough, so far, to regenerate the solution.

For those who are interested, some CuCL details are here: 

http://users.rcn.com/rexa/Projects/CuCl_ech.html

and the Links here have more info about CUCl.

Grant


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cybermace5" <cybermace5@y...>
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
> <grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> > Twenty-five litres? I thought 5 litres would be a life-time
supply! I
> > haven't adjusted the cupric choride I have in the big picnic
cooler
> > since I made the solution, and I have made lots of boards in it
since,
> > but it seems to be slowing, so it's time to check the density and
> > titrate to determine acidity level.
> > 
> > How the heck am I going to use 25 litres, do you imagine?
> > 
> > Grant
> 
> The stuff you get from a hardware store is muriatic acid, about 31%
> HCl concentration. It's not the nastiest chemical ever, but it's
about
> the nastiest you can easily find for sale. Should be treated with
> respect. Use it outside or with lots of ventilation, away from any
> metals you don't want rusted or dulled by the vapors. You don't
really
> dilute it that much to etch PCBs, but it is pretty cheap. When you
add
> the H2O2, it'll start outgassing. Don't breathe that stuff, it'll
chew
> up your lungs and throat. Always add the acid to water, not the
other
> way around. Keep a bucket of water and an open box of baking soda
> nearby to dilute and neutralize any accidents. Don't ever put
aluminum
> into the etchant mixture, it violently outgasses hydrogen and
produces
> a lot of heat: bad combination for something happening in a tank of
> corrosive acid. You also don't want to leave mixed etchant sitting
> around, it'll degrade pretty quickly.
> 
> So...HCl works and is cheap, but can be a bit of a pain to use. Of
> course there are other neat things you can do with your HCl,
including
> some interesting metal etching/rusting and wood finishing effects.

You can buy Muriatic acid at any swimming pool supply, and most
hardware shops.  It is a somewhat diluted HCl.

Hopefully that will be acceptable.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
<grant.fair@s...> wrote:

> I went to Home Depot to get more hydrochloric acid to top up my cupric
> chloride etchant. They don't sell it anymore because of safety
> requirements regarding storage!
> 
> Anyone know of another source in the Toronto area?
> 
> Grant