Homebrew PCBs

Hi,
 I'm working on a etching tank for CuCl (HCl + H2O2), and before I put 
any holes in it, I want to know if I can seal it correctly.  Does anyone 
know if CuCl eats hot glue gun glues?  If that is not a proper sealant, 
does anyone have any ideas?  
Thanks
Richard

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:28:47 -0700, Richard Mustakos <rmustakos@...> 
wrote:

> Hi,
>  I'm working on a etching tank for CuCl (HCl + H2O2), and before I put
> any holes in it, I want to know if I can seal it correctly.  Does anyone
> know if CuCl eats hot glue gun glues?  If that is not a proper sealant,
> does anyone have any ideas?
> Thanks
> Richard
>

Silicone glue is OK, i didn't try hot glue but i'm 99% sure it is ok too.
But the silicone has much better gluing and sealing properties, i use it 
with good
results in a glass tank. get it in every DIY store.

ST

You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 04:16:24 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> Save your energy on making the boards. Mike
>

disagreed.
A proper tank where the etchant can stay for storage,
perhaps with a hydrometer floating if you like, and with
a proper lid with PCB holder is well worth the effort.

I know i'm not supposed to say such things, but i find it very rude
if someone answers "don't do it you don't need it" to someone wanting to  
build already.
I mean you could say it is not really required and what you use but not
just "stop it".

well, if you need no tank Mike it's fine for you. I did need one
and i'm glad i built one. My first was a mistake but the second is close
to perfect.

ST

hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are etching 
at board?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

Hello,

Ziplock sandwich bags. 

(Doubled inside of freezer ziplock bags for safety/redundancy<G>) 

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are etching 
> at board?
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

Hello,

Forgot to add: When done, just clip a corner with scissors and the 
bag contents can be funneled into a disposal or storage container.

And the bag(s) can be put into hot water to speed up the etching...

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Ziplock sandwich bags. 
> 
> (Doubled inside of freezer ziplock bags for safety/redundancy<G>) 
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Ballendo
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:
> > hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are 
etching 

> > at board?
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

that's not a bad idea at all for etching though I'd be very careful 
even with double bagging.   Its a good, cheap way to do quick one-off 
etches.  Even allows for aggitation though I'd be reluctant to handle 
a full bag.

Still, I prefer the tank I made which has a bubbler and heater.  
Yeah, its more "stuff" and requires cleaning but I get very 
consistant, even etching and can do multiple boards at once.  Pouring 
etchant back into the storage container is very precise.  I'll stick 
with it.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Forgot to add: When done, just clip a corner with scissors and the 
> bag contents can be funneled into a disposal or storage container.
> 
> And the bag(s) can be put into hot water to speed up the etching...
> 
> Ballendo
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Ziplock sandwich bags. 
> > 
> > (Doubled inside of freezer ziplock bags for safety/redundancy<G>) 
> > 
> > Hope this helps,
> > 
> > Ballendo
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
> wrote:
> > > hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are 
> etching 
> > > at board?
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> > wrote:
> > > > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > > > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:23:55 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> that's not a bad idea at all for etching though I'd be very careful
> even with double bagging.   Its a good, cheap way to do quick one-off
> etches.  Even allows for aggitation though I'd be reluctant to handle
> a full bag.
>
> Still, I prefer the tank I made which has a bubbler and heater.
> Yeah, its more "stuff" and requires cleaning but I get very
> consistant, even etching and can do multiple boards at once.  Pouring
> etchant back into the storage container is very precise.  I'll stick
> with it.
>

Phil, the trick is to make the container in a way so that almost
no cleaning and no pouring back for storage is required.
(Though i doubt emptying and discarding the bags is less hassle than  
cleaning
your container)
I have a glass tank for CuCl, which holds one liter and can do boards  
approx. 30cmx20cm.
I keep the etchant in all the time (silicone adhesive seal for the lid),
if i need a board i lift the lid, clamp the board in the holder, put it  
back in, etch.

(note: not touching any "wet" internal parts while doing that, the board  
clamp is "remote controlled" through the lid and operated by the thumb of  
the hand holding the lid while the other
hand positions the pcb)

When it is ready i lift it out by the handle, position it over the water  
container, and push
the "remote control" for the clamp mechanism. the PCB is released and in  
the water.

You see, not a drop of etchant is wasted because ONLY the PCB can carry  
any etchant on it's surface
and is washed. the other parts never touch anything, and never get cleaned.
It is also sealed off enough so that closeby tools won't corrode.
The whole tank sits in a plastic container but there were no leaks so far.
The nice thing is you can clearly see both sides while in the etchant, no  
need to pull it out
to see if it is completed. I have a hydrometer in there to see the density  
(CuCl), and
also a electrolysis setup with carbon electrodes, but i didn't fire it up  
yet 'cause i
think it isn't really useful. I could easily add a bubbler and heater  
because the last 5cm
on both ends of the lid are separated and can be used to carry a hose, a  
heater, or like it
is now carbon electrodes. I don't want a bubble because of the possible  
fumes.
However, speeding it up is easy by adding mechanical agitation. A geared  
motor
"sways" the holder from side to side (the silicone seal allows that) and  
does
speed up the process a lot.

Best part: building was basically free, i had the glass and the lid/holder  
is made
of old printer chassis. The slicone adhesive is the only cost.

I can only suggest to go on and build one, it is a big difference if you  
have to prepare
your "bowl" and storage bottle, handle dangerous chemicals, or just open  
the lid and put
it in there without getting your hands dirty.

ST

I totally agree that the best solution is an etch AND storage tank, 
all in one.

Unfortunately, m tank is plastic.  I (currently) use AP.  I have 
heard anecdotal evidence that it eats plastic so I dont want to store 
it in the tank.  I've kept my eye out for a glass tank but they are 
all too big (4 L/1 G) and I want to only have 1 L of etchant for 
safety sake.  I guess at some point I'll build a glass one if I dont 
find a suitable container.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:23:55 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> > that's not a bad idea at all for etching though I'd be very 
careful
> > even with double bagging.   Its a good, cheap way to do quick one-
off
> > etches.  Even allows for aggitation though I'd be reluctant to 
handle
> > a full bag.
> >
> > Still, I prefer the tank I made which has a bubbler and heater.
> > Yeah, its more "stuff" and requires cleaning but I get very
> > consistant, even etching and can do multiple boards at once.  
Pouring
> > etchant back into the storage container is very precise.  I'll 
stick
> > with it.
> >
> 
> Phil, the trick is to make the container in a way so that almost
> no cleaning and no pouring back for storage is required.
> (Though i doubt emptying and discarding the bags is less hassle 
than  
> cleaning
> your container)
> I have a glass tank for CuCl, which holds one liter and can do 
boards  
> approx. 30cmx20cm.
> I keep the etchant in all the time (silicone adhesive seal for the 
lid),
> if i need a board i lift the lid, clamp the board in the holder, 
put it  
> back in, etch.
> 
> (note: not touching any "wet" internal parts while doing that, the 
board  
> clamp is "remote controlled" through the lid and operated by the 
thumb of  
> the hand holding the lid while the other
> hand positions the pcb)
> 
> When it is ready i lift it out by the handle, position it over the 
water  
> container, and push
> the "remote control" for the clamp mechanism. the PCB is released 
and in  
> the water.
> 
> You see, not a drop of etchant is wasted because ONLY the PCB can 
carry  
> any etchant on it's surface
> and is washed. the other parts never touch anything, and never get 
cleaned.
> It is also sealed off enough so that closeby tools won't corrode.
> The whole tank sits in a plastic container but there were no leaks 
so far.
> The nice thing is you can clearly see both sides while in the 
etchant, no  
> need to pull it out
> to see if it is completed. I have a hydrometer in there to see the 
density  
> (CuCl), and
> also a electrolysis setup with carbon electrodes, but i didn't fire 
it up  
> yet 'cause i
> think it isn't really useful. I could easily add a bubbler and 
heater  
> because the last 5cm
> on both ends of the lid are separated and can be used to carry a 
hose, a  
> heater, or like it
> is now carbon electrodes. I don't want a bubble because of the 
possible  
> fumes.
> However, speeding it up is easy by adding mechanical agitation. A 
geared  
> motor
> "sways" the holder from side to side (the silicone seal allows 
that) and  
> does
> speed up the process a lot.
> 
> Best part: building was basically free, i had the glass and the 
lid/holder  
> is made
> of old printer chassis. The slicone adhesive is the only cost.
> 
> I can only suggest to go on and build one, it is a big difference 
if you  
> have to prepare
> your "bowl" and storage bottle, handle dangerous chemicals, or just 
open  

> the lid and put
> it in there without getting your hands dirty.
> 
> ST

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:53:25 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> I totally agree that the best solution is an etch AND storage tank,
> all in one.
>
> Unfortunately, m tank is plastic.  I (currently) use AP.  I have
> heard anecdotal evidence that it eats plastic so I dont want to store
> it in the tank.  I've kept my eye out for a glass tank but they are
> all too big (4 L/1 G) and I want to only have 1 L of etchant for
> safety sake.  I guess at some point I'll build a glass one if I dont
> find a suitable container.

What's AP? Acrylic?
I used to store the CuCl in a PP (poly-propylene) bottle.
It did form odd crystals on the outside so i changed to a glass bottle  
after a few years.
But it didn't seem the bottle was damaged.
My HCl is in a PE (poly-ethylene) bottle, and it also has crystals on the  
outside.
Also the plastic itself seems slightly damaged (after 5 years...).
I put another cut-off bottle as a sleeve over it (to keep me from touching  
the crystals
and to prevent leakage should it fail), next time i buy HCl i definitely  
don't have
them refill this bottle and get a new one instead.

I would not worry about a plastic tank for a few years, but who knows...
I have a plastic lid (printers use to be made of ABS) and a piece of  
rubber is
part of the clamp, both seems unaffected so far.

ST

enter pile-on mode.  I asked the question to draw out this discussion 
to hear why mike thinks a tank is useless.  Such statements need to 
be followed with a rationale as to why. 

Frankly, I think that absolute pronouncements are unnecessary, I 
don't like to see them even from experts (of which i do not believe 
we have here).

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 04:16:24 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike
> >
> 
> disagreed.
> A proper tank where the etchant can stay for storage,
> perhaps with a hydrometer floating if you like, and with
> a proper lid with PCB holder is well worth the effort.
> 
> I know i'm not supposed to say such things, but i find it very rude
> if someone answers "don't do it you don't need it" to someone 
wanting to  
> build already.
> I mean you could say it is not really required and what you use but 
not
> just "stop it".
> 
> well, if you need no tank Mike it's fine for you. I did need one
> and i'm glad i built one. My first was a mistake but the second is 
close

> to perfect.
> 
> ST

a cuvette of a suitable size.  Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are etching 
> at board?
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

Phil, not only you don't need the tank, but you don't need a bubbler 
(old thinking) not a heater, hehehe. Life can be simple but only for 
the right person. Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> that's not a bad idea at all for etching though I'd be very careful 
> even with double bagging.   Its a good, cheap way to do quick one-
off 
> etches.  Even allows for aggitation though I'd be reluctant to 
handle 
> a full bag.
> 
> Still, I prefer the tank I made which has a bubbler and heater.  
> Yeah, its more "stuff" and requires cleaning but I get very 
> consistant, even etching and can do multiple boards at once.  
Pouring 
> etchant back into the storage container is very precise.  I'll 
stick 
> with it.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Forgot to add: When done, just clip a corner with scissors and 
the 
> > bag contents can be funneled into a disposal or storage container.
> > 
> > And the bag(s) can be put into hot water to speed up the 
etching...
> > 
> > Ballendo
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Ziplock sandwich bags. 
> > > 
> > > (Doubled inside of freezer ziplock bags for 
safety/redundancy<G>) 
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > 
> > > Ballendo
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > > hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are 
> > etching 
> > > > at board?
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" 
<eemikez@c...> 

> > > wrote:
> > > > > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > > > > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

dude, instead of making flat statements with zero backup data or 
rationale,  please explain why.  propose alternate solutions.  what 
would you have me do?  cup my hands to hold the etchant?  build your 
case.  prove your expertise.   describe experiments you have done and 
the results.  Show some examples of boards you have done.  If you are 
just quoting some one else's work, give a reference/pointer/url/...  

I can only speak for myself but I don't see a lot of credibility so 
far and mere repetition of unsubstantiated opinion will not increase 
it.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Phil, not only you don't need the tank, but you don't need a 
bubbler 
> (old thinking) not a heater, hehehe. Life can be simple but only 
for 
> the right person. Mike
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:
> > that's not a bad idea at all for etching though I'd be very 
careful 
> > even with double bagging.   Its a good, cheap way to do quick one-
> off 
> > etches.  Even allows for aggitation though I'd be reluctant to 
> handle 
> > a full bag.
> > 
> > Still, I prefer the tank I made which has a bubbler and heater.  
> > Yeah, its more "stuff" and requires cleaning but I get very 
> > consistant, even etching and can do multiple boards at once.  
> Pouring 
> > etchant back into the storage container is very precise.  I'll 
> stick 
> > with it.
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Forgot to add: When done, just clip a corner with scissors and 
> the 
> > > bag contents can be funneled into a disposal or storage 
container.
> > > 
> > > And the bag(s) can be put into hot water to speed up the 
> etching...
> > > 
> > > Ballendo
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" 
<ballendo@y...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > > 
> > > > Ziplock sandwich bags. 
> > > > 
> > > > (Doubled inside of freezer ziplock bags for 
> safety/redundancy<G>) 
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps,
> > > > 
> > > > Ballendo
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" 
<phil1960us@y...> 

> > > wrote:
> > > > > hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are 
> > > etching 
> > > > > at board?
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" 
> <eemikez@c...> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > > > > > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

Pointer to product?  Place to purchase?  

The only ones I could fine hold a max of 35 mL.  What size boards are 
you making?

Oh, yeah, aren't these just tanks with a fancy name and fancy price?

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> a cuvette of a suitable size.  Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:
> > hmmm,  what do you use to contain your etchant when you are 
etching 

> > at board?
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > You don't need a tank. It's not needed nor required.
> > > Save your energy on making the boards. Mike

In a message dated 8/9/2004 2:05:05 AM Central Standard Time, 
phil1960us@... writes:
what do you use to contain your etchant when you are etching 
at board?
There are myriad trays, etc., of glass and PVC for kitchen-tasks at Walmart!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dude?! Have a nice day. Mike

no. Mike

I guess your approach to this group is to make provocative statements 
but not actually contribute.  IMNSHO, a non-response would be a more 
worthwhile contribution.  Have a nice day, too.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Dude?! Have a nice day. Mike

I see the tone of you answers got much improved and this is a good 
sign. In the future do not learn from the wrong people to attack 
others and please refrain from personal remarks. Just stick to teh 
technical questions and there won't be any problems. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> I guess your approach to this group is to make provocative 
statements 
> but not actually contribute.  IMNSHO, a non-response would be a 
more 
> worthwhile contribution.  Have a nice day, too.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> > Dude?! Have a nice day. Mike

I can see your tone DIDN'T improve.  Are you going answer the 
questions about explaining your terse and cryptic comments or lecture 
us on how to behave?  As I see it, you have tossed out several 
controversial pronouncements with zero, and I do mean zero, details 
on why you are right. I was sticking to the technical questions, you 
have avoided any technical answers.   I started this a tad skeptical 
but, at this point, I think you are just blowing smoke.  Prove me 
wrong.

and have a nice day.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> I see the tone of you answers got much improved and this is a good 
> sign. In the future do not learn from the wrong people to attack 
> others and please refrain from personal remarks. Just stick to teh 
> technical questions and there won't be any problems. Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:

> > I guess your approach to this group is to make provocative 
> statements 
> > but not actually contribute.  IMNSHO, a non-response would be a 
> more 
> > worthwhile contribution.  Have a nice day, too.
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > Dude?! Have a nice day. Mike

ammonium perchlorate.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:53:25 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> > I totally agree that the best solution is an etch AND storage 
tank,
> > all in one.
> >
> > Unfortunately, m tank is plastic.  I (currently) use AP.  I have
> > heard anecdotal evidence that it eats plastic so I dont want to 
store
> > it in the tank.  I've kept my eye out for a glass tank but they 
are
> > all too big (4 L/1 G) and I want to only have 1 L of etchant for
> > safety sake.  I guess at some point I'll build a glass one if I 
dont
> > find a suitable container.
> 
> What's AP? Acrylic?
> I used to store the CuCl in a PP (poly-propylene) bottle.
> It did form odd crystals on the outside so i changed to a glass 
bottle  
> after a few years.
> But it didn't seem the bottle was damaged.
> My HCl is in a PE (poly-ethylene) bottle, and it also has crystals 
on the  
> outside.
> Also the plastic itself seems slightly damaged (after 5 years...).
> I put another cut-off bottle as a sleeve over it (to keep me from 
touching  
> the crystals
> and to prevent leakage should it fail), next time i buy HCl i 
definitely  
> don't have
> them refill this bottle and get a new one instead.
> 
> I would not worry about a plastic tank for a few years, but who 
knows...
> I have a plastic lid (printers use to be made of ABS) and a piece 
of  

> rubber is
> part of the clamp, both seems unaffected so far.
> 
> ST

>"Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> Frankly, I think that absolute pronouncements are unnecessary, I 
> don't like to see them even from experts (of which i do not believe 
> we have here).

Phil,

That's a joke, right? Not about the experts per se, but right after 
saying "absolute pronouncements are unnecessary", you make one...

So it must be a joke...

Ballendo

I said "I think".  That makes it my opinion, not an immutable law 
that I claim exists.  But I can certainly see how some one might read 
it the way you did.  Do you disagree with the point?  

Doesn't it seem reasonable that he follow his absolute pronouncements 
with explanations? But he hasn't yet.  That's what i was (and still 
am) objecting to. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:
> >"Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> > Frankly, I think that absolute pronouncements are unnecessary, I 
> > don't like to see them even from experts (of which i do not 
believe 

> > we have here).
> 
> Phil,
> 
> That's a joke, right? Not about the experts per se, but right after 
> saying "absolute pronouncements are unnecessary", you make one...
> 
> So it must be a joke...
> 
> Ballendo

Stefan
  I guess you already have a solution to this, with the mechanical 
agitator,
but here goes anyway.  One of reasons I was asking about the glue is
because I want to put a bubbler in my etching tank.  I got a bubbler from
a pet store, like everyone else, and I'm eventually going to take it apart
and see it is a diaphragm pump.  If it is, I'm going to glue it to the 
side of
my tank, and recirc fumes into the bubbler.  Since no new O2 will get
in this way, (except when I put the board in) I am only looking at this
for agitation, not for regeneration.
Richard
(a known agitator)

>Message: 2         
>   Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:44:07 +0200
>   From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
>Subject: Re: Another use for baggies  was Re: hot glue gun glue
>
>On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:23:55 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:
>
>> I don't want a bubble because of the possible  
>>fumes.
>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:41:36 -0700, Richard Mustakos <rmustakos@...>  
wrote:

> Stefan
>   I guess you already have a solution to this, with the mechanical
> agitator,
> but here goes anyway.  One of reasons I was asking about the glue is
> because I want to put a bubbler in my etching tank.  I got a bubbler from
> a pet store, like everyone else, and I'm eventually going to take it  
> apart
> and see it is a diaphragm pump.  If it is, I'm going to glue it to the
> side of
> my tank, and recirc fumes into the bubbler.  Since no new O2 will get
> in this way, (except when I put the board in) I am only looking at this
> for agitation, not for regeneration.
> Richard
> (a known agitator)

please let me know how much faster it is, so i know if i must
consider it.
diaphragm is highly likely.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> enter pile-on mode.  I asked the question to draw out this 
discussion 
> to hear why mike thinks a tank is useless.  Such statements need to 
> be followed with a rationale as to why. 


Funny how every long now and again someone comes up with things that 
they did once and pronounces them to be the 'end all' of the hobby.

Or who reads a brochure of some plans of some future thing and 
proclaims that it will change the market.   (if he was talking about 
Ballendo's machine I probably would agree)

Or makes some statement that all scientific and medical evidence 
shows otherwise and when shown the proof, says that YOU need to find 
the data to prove his point.

We also see those who proclaim 'it can't be done' also from people 
who don't know how to do things.

My point of view is that if you think it can't be done, then get out 
of the way of those who are doing it !

A philosopher I read said that an expert is the one who can do it.  
so, it you wanna know about something, disregard those who have no 
experience or only spout unfounded opinions and listen to those who 
actually do the thing.

My 2 cents.

Thanks for your indulgence.

Dave

Phil,

I've learned two things about Yahoo groups after reading and posting 
many tens of thousands of messages...

One; There are a LOT of different personalities out there.

Two: A whole LOT is misunderstood due to limitations of emails.

The answer to both of these IMO is to choose your battles carefully. 
If somebody wants to behave a certain way, they will. That's point 
one. BUT, the way I "think" they are behaving may be incorrect 
because I'm missing some part of what they're doing--or missed an 
element of a thread, etc. That's point two.

I've often had something I "said" misunderstood. Or made what I 
thought was a humorous post, only to offend.

There's an entire WORLD of people out there, AND in here...

I'm not gonna get along with every one of them, OR understand each of 
them. (points one and two again<G>)

Hope this helps,

Ballendo





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> I said "I think".  That makes it my opinion, not an immutable law 
> that I claim exists.  But I can certainly see how some one might 
read 
> it the way you did.  Do you disagree with the point?  
> 
> Doesn't it seem reasonable that he follow his absolute 
pronouncements 
> with explanations? But he hasn't yet.  That's what i was (and still 
> am) objecting to. 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
> wrote:
> > >"Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> > > Frankly, I think that absolute pronouncements are unnecessary, 
I 
> > > don't like to see them even from experts (of which i do not 
> believe 
> > > we have here).
> > 
> > Phil,
> > 
> > That's a joke, right? Not about the experts per se, but right 
after 

> > saying "absolute pronouncements are unnecessary", you make one...
> > 
> > So it must be a joke...
> > 
> > Ballendo

> Funny how every long now and again someone comes up with things that 
> they did once and pronounces them to be the 'end all' of the hobby.

    Maybe we could go back to PCBs? :o)


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>Alexandre Souza" <alexandre-listas@e...> wrote:
>Maybe we could go back to PCBs? :o)

No, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB's) are pretty toxic and there's 
not many who'd allow us to go back to using them the ways we once 
did... ;o)

Sorry, I'll go away now<G> Too many long hours at the shops these 
days...

Ballendo

Hi Dave,

As always, your posts are greatly appreciated as a valuable 
contribution to a PCB making community. Keep up a good job!  Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:
> > enter pile-on mode.  I asked the question to draw out this 
> discussion 
> > to hear why mike thinks a tank is useless.  Such statements need 
to 
> > be followed with a rationale as to why. 
> 
> 
> Funny how every long now and again someone comes up with things 
that 
> they did once and pronounces them to be the 'end all' of the hobby.
> 
> Or who reads a brochure of some plans of some future thing and 
> proclaims that it will change the market.   (if he was talking 
about 
> Ballendo's machine I probably would agree)
> 
> Or makes some statement that all scientific and medical evidence 
> shows otherwise and when shown the proof, says that YOU need to 
find 
> the data to prove his point.
> 
> We also see those who proclaim 'it can't be done' also from people 
> who don't know how to do things.
> 
> My point of view is that if you think it can't be done, then get 
out 

> of the way of those who are doing it !
> 
> A philosopher I read said that an expert is the one who can do it.  
> so, it you wanna know about something, disregard those who have no 
> experience or only spout unfounded opinions and listen to those who 
> actually do the thing.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Thanks for your indulgence.
> 
> Dave