Homebrew_PCBs

> you might get a
> lot of benefit from the edge of a 1/8 or 1/4 cutter

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "IMService" <imserv@v...> wrote:
> Has anyone worked out a tilting table that could be used to tilt
the PC boards,
> and then to use the corner of a flat end mill? You would have to
cut the traces
> horizontal, then the vertical ones, but even with a reposition, you
might get a
> lot of benefit from the edge of a 1/8 or 1/4 cutter vs the center
of a V tipped
> cutter.
>
> You might get the same effect from angling the spindle, and the
table
> construction would not get so complicated.
>
> Fred Smith
> IMService

> The problem with Mechanical Etching is the epoxy in the board.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., JanRwl@A... wrote:
> In a message dated 26-May-02 06:09:15 Central Daylight Time,
> john@k... writes:
>
>
> > The problem with Mechanical Etching is the epoxy in the board.
>
> Correction, if I dare: The "epoxy" is merely easy-to-cut "plastic
stuff"!
> It is the GLASS FIBER impregnated in the "epoxy" which eats up
cutting-edges!
>
>
> I suspect the main reason alternatives of pointed "engraving" bits
is
> considered here is that such a TINY portion of tool is "in the
work" at any
> instant, it therefore has to TURN at such a tremendous speed to
have any
> suitable "surface-speed" to work, at all, whereas the CIRCUMFERENCE
of even a
> 1/8" dia. bit would have much more surface-speed, even at slower
RPM. That's
> why a modern dental hand-piece turns those tiny "burrs" (mill-
bits!) at
> 100,000-300,000 RPM and more!). Tip: Dentists typically throw-out
used
> burrs, even if only "package opened, but not actually used". Next
time you
> have 3 grams of amalgam put in your face, ask the dentist if you
can HAVE
> "your" used burrs (you HAVE paid for them, after all!). These will
> (usually?) have 0.0625" dia. shanks, yes, even those built-in and
USED-in the
> rest of the world, I think! So, you will have to use the correct
collet,
> etc. But those can probably do "mechanical PCB etching" very well,
if turned
> at least 30,000 rpm or more. Think AIR-MOTORS!!! Whew, even if
the "main
> spindle-bearing" were dual-race angular contact ball-bearing,
a "Dremel tool"
> just isn't the kind of "quill motor" for a PCB drill!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Jan,
> The Dremel only costs $59 verses your $400 solution. Please
>note this is the Homebrew PCB conference. Cost is everything! It
>may be possible to find a surplus dentist drill. I find the Dremel
>tool does a great job! I sell the boards I make with mine.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...> wrote:
> At 09:07 PM 5/26/02 +0000, crankorgan wrote:
> >Jan,
> > The Dremel only costs $59 verses your $400 solution. Please
> >note this is the Homebrew PCB conference. Cost is everything! It
> >may be possible to find a surplus dentist drill. I find the Dremel
> >tool does a great job! I sell the boards I make with mine.
>
> John - have you had a chance to try out those real inexpensive air
power
> die grinders sold by Harbor Freight? They appear to be identical
to the
> ones I purchased from a Canadian supplier called Princess Auto.
Their
> claim to fame is extremely small run-out and fast speed - I think
they will
> do 60,000 RPM.
>
> I've got a couple but haven't tried them in a mill yet.
>
> dwayne
>
> --
> Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
> (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
>
> Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
> .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
> `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
> Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
> This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
> commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

> At 09:07 PM 5/26/02 +0000, crankorgan wrote:
> >Jan,
> > The Dremel only costs $59 verses your $400 solution. Please
> >note this is the Homebrew PCB conference. Cost is everything! It
> >may be possible to find a surplus dentist drill. I find the
> Dremel
> >tool does a great job! I sell the boards I make with mine.
>
> John - have you had a chance to try out those real inexpensive
> air power
> die grinders sold by Harbor Freight? They appear to be identical
> to the
> ones I purchased from a Canadian supplier called Princess Auto.
> Their
> claim to fame is extremely small run-out and fast speed - I think
> they will
> do 60,000 RPM.

>Jan,
> The Dremel only costs $59 verses your $400 solution. Please
>note this is the Homebrew PCB conference. Cost is everything! It
>may be possible to find a surplus dentist drill. I find the Dremel
>tool does a great job! I sell the boards I make with mine.
>
>
> John
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
<snip> The Dremel I once had was so out of round
> you could see the drill tip blur when it was running. Everything is
made
> to a price.
>
> Adam

Adam, I checked the runout on my Dremel a while back, and my first
reaction was, 'Dang, I have a bent drill!' Turns out of course,
the drill was OK but the collet is a piece of crap. I don't
remember the actual values, but everything except the collet was
very near dead-on (by my standards). I have a bunch of Dremel odds
and ends and none of the collets ran anywhere close to true.
The drill would be centered at the collet exit, but would, as
you described, rotate in a circle at the tip. I intended to make
a new collet, but never found the time. But by keeping the tool
extended length to a minimum, I can live with the best collet of
the lot.
Anybody else checked this? Do I just have a bad (abused?) bunch
of collets? An old one with a black oxide finish was better then
the newer 'white' ones.
Al

> those real inexpensive air power
> die grinders sold by Harbor Freight?

> The Dremel I once had was so out of round you could see the drill tip blur
> when it was running. Everything is made to a price.

>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
><snip> The Dremel I once had was so out of round
> > you could see the drill tip blur when it was running. Everything is
>made
> > to a price.
> >
> > Adam
>
>Adam, I checked the runout on my Dremel a while back, and my first
>reaction was, 'Dang, I have a bent drill!' Turns out of course,
>the drill was OK but the collet is a piece of crap. I don't
>remember the actual values, but everything except the collet was
>very near dead-on (by my standards). I have a bunch of Dremel odds
>and ends and none of the collets ran anywhere close to true.
>The drill would be centered at the collet exit, but would, as
>you described, rotate in a circle at the tip. I intended to make
>a new collet, but never found the time. But by keeping the tool
>extended length to a minimum, I can live with the best collet of
>the lot.
>Anybody else checked this? Do I just have a bad (abused?) bunch
>of collets? An old one with a black oxide finish was better then
>the newer 'white' ones.
>Al

>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
><snip> The Dremel I once had was so out of round
>
>>you could see the drill tip blur when it was running. Everything is
>>
>made
>
>>to a price.
>>
>>Adam
>>
>
><cut> Anybody else checked this? Do I just have a bad (abused?) bunch
>of collets? An old one with a black oxide finish was better then
>the newer 'white' ones.
>Al
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., JanRwl@A... wrote:
> I can't BELIEVE no one (including me!) has yet pointed out
that "tilting the
> boards" would be of use for the point starting this thread ONLY to
cut tracks
> parallel to the tilt-axis! Curves and/or tracks at angles to those
would be
> WIDER and have "fuzzy" edges! How would PADS be cut? Imagine
cutting for an
> IC!!!!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Seychell" <adam_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Has any tried to tilt the boards?


>
>
> crankorgan wrote:
>
> >Jan,
> > The Dremel only costs $59 verses your $400 solution. Please
> >note this is the Homebrew PCB conference. Cost is everything! It
> >may be possible to find a surplus dentist drill. I find the Dremel
> >tool does a great job! I sell the boards I make with mine.
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> What about an industrial electric die (straight) grinder ? They are
> somewhat larger than Dremel but this ain't a problem if mounted in a
> good press. At least you don't need a whopping big compressor thumping
> in the background to drive it. The Dremel I once had was so out of round
> you could see the drill tip blur when it was running. Everything is made
> to a price.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>
> Enco www.use-enco.com has a 54K rpm pencil air turbin in this months
> specials.
>
> about US$ 60 plus shipping. Air CFM not stated. uses 1/8th shank cutters.
>
> Enco has good stuff and bad stuff but they will refund or make it right if
> there is a problem.
>
> Hugh

> > those real inexpensive air power
> > die grinders sold by Harbor Freight?
>
>Dwayne: Those have a ¼" collet, so you would have to "DO something" for
>PCB-drills, and I don't know what kind of bearings those things have. MIGHT
>be OK, at least for a few hundred holes, but no clue. HOWEVER, I use those
>as "disposable" when malfunctioning tools to "de-bur" and countersink wood
>(for FH screws), and they EAT air at a rate with which a 2 hp compressor can
>hardly keep up! They also kinda REQUIRE oily air, or, at least oil put into
>their own intakes from time to time, to keep them properly lubed, and the
>resulting oil-mist-spray is NOT good news for a clean and dry
>to-be-chemically-treated PC-blank!!!!! But good thinking, anyway!

>
> Has anyone worked out a tilting table that could be used to tilt the PC boards,
> and then to use the corner of a flat end mill? You would have to cut the traces
> horizontal, then the vertical ones, but even with a reposition, you might get a
> lot of benefit from the edge of a 1/8 or 1/4 cutter vs the center of a V tipped
> cutter.
>
> You might get the same effect from angling the spindle, and the table
> construction would not get so complicated.
>
> Fred Smith
> IMService

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> <snip> The Dremel I once had was so out of round
> > you could see the drill tip blur when it was running. Everything

> made
> > to a price.
> >
> > Adam
>
> Adam, I checked the runout on my Dremel a while back, and my first
> reaction was, 'Dang, I have a bent drill!' Turns out of course,
> the drill was OK but the collet is a piece of crap. I don't
> remember the actual values, but everything except the collet was
> very near dead-on (by my standards). I have a bunch of Dremel odds
> and ends and none of the collets ran anywhere close to true.
> The drill would be centered at the collet exit, but would, as
> you described, rotate in a circle at the tip. I intended to make
> a new collet, but never found the time. But by keeping the tool
> extended length to a minimum, I can live with the best collet of
> the lot.
> Anybody else checked this? Do I just have a bad (abused?) bunch
> of collets? An old one with a black oxide finish was better then
> the newer 'white' ones.
> Al

>
> At 12:15 AM 5/27/02 -0400, JanRwl@... wrote:
> > > those real inexpensive air power
> > > die grinders sold by Harbor Freight?
> >
> >Dwayne: Those have a ¼" collet, so you would have to "DO something" for
> >PCB-drills, and I don't know what kind of bearings those things have. MIGHT
> >be OK, at least for a few hundred holes, but no clue. HOWEVER, I use those
> >as "disposable" when malfunctioning tools to "de-bur" and countersink wood
> >(for FH screws), and they EAT air at a rate with which a 2 hp compressor can
> >hardly keep up! They also kinda REQUIRE oily air, or, at least oil put into
> >their own intakes from time to time, to keep them properly lubed, and the
> >resulting oil-mist-spray is NOT good news for a clean and dry
> >to-be-chemically-treated PC-blank!!!!! But good thinking, anyway!
>
> Hmm . . . the ones that I have came with a 1/8" collet. They won't take a
> 1/4" collet - the output shaft is too small. My 1/8" shaft PC drills fit
> just fine.
>
> The do require lube but the exhaust comes out the rear of the unit and they
> come with another hose snapped onto the rear of the grinder. The exhaust
> goes out that hose - along with any lube mist.

>
> Greetings:
> I have a question about pcb software: Traditionally when I make
> circuit boards I use a software package from ivex called winboard pcb.
> The only problem with this software package is that I am unable to
> generate negatives once I have the positive made. The process I use to
> make circuit boards is the 'wet negative process'. I have gotten by in
> the past by printing the image on a white piece of 8.5*11 scanning it
> in and in photoshop I invert the image at print time on a 3m deskjet
> transparency. I find this method to be a hassle and I loose quite a
> bit of resolution going through all those steps. I guess I am looking
> for another 'WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET' program that can turn
> positives into negatives or maybe someone can correct me and show me
> where the invert command i can't seem to see in winboard pcb is.
> Thanks in advance!
> Randy Knutson
>

> What if you used a carbide ball mill?

> Enco www.use-enco.com has a 54K rpm pencil air turbin in this months
> specials.
>
>

> Hmm . . . the ones that I have came with a 1/8" collet. They won't take a
> 1/4" collet - the output shaft is too small. My 1/8" shaft PC drills fit
> just fine.

>I respect the need to keep "ON TOPIC", and the pain it can be for a LONG
>message to appear, in which only a small % may have interest, even IF
>well-ON-topic. But this particular drill-routing topic has made me wonder:
>Would members like to read a little "article" about how I applied an
>"aircraft instrument motor" designed to run on 115 V/400 Hz. (yes!), 95
>Watts, to make a 12,000 RPM drill-quill? WAS a project, but the result is an
>amazingly-reliable, precision "drilling instrument", with NO air!

>I respect the need to keep "ON TOPIC", and the pain it can be for a LONG
>message to appear, in which only a small % may have interest, even IF
>well-ON-topic. But this particular drill-routing topic has made me wonder:
>Would members like to read a little "article" about how I applied an
>"aircraft instrument motor" designed to run on 115 V/400 Hz. (yes!), 95
>Watts, to make a 12,000 RPM drill-quill? WAS a project, but the result is an
>amazingly-reliable, precision "drilling instrument", with NO air! Maybe
>e-mail me direct, or whatever, until I can get a "feel" for whether to
>write/post such. Jan Rowland
>

> In a message dated 27-May-02 06:57:16 Central Daylight Time,
> john@... writes:

>
> But I fear all this talk of "tiling boards" has many "in here"
> conjuring
> machines with sloping "tables" and springs or whatever to
> overcome the
> effects of gravity, i.e., complex 'chinry! Can't we change the
> TITLE of this
> thread to "sloping quill-motor"? Better yet: "Home-brew PCB
> drill/router
> with tiltable quill-axis"!!! Jan Rowland

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> Yes, why not?
>
> Steve
>
> --- JanRwl@A... wrote:
> > In a message dated 27-May-02 06:57:16 Central Daylight Time,
> > john@k... writes:
>
> >
> > But I fear all this talk of "tiling boards" has many "in here"
> > conjuring
> > machines with sloping "tables" and springs or whatever to
> > overcome the
> > effects of gravity, i.e., complex 'chinry! Can't we change the
> > TITLE of this
> > thread to "sloping quill-motor"? Better yet: "Home-brew PCB
> > drill/router
> > with tiltable quill-axis"!!! Jan Rowland
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

>I respect the need to keep "ON TOPIC", and the pain it can be for a LONG
>message to appear, in which only a small % may have interest, even IF
>well-ON-topic. But this particular drill-routing topic has made me wonder:
>Would members like to read a little "article" about how I applied an
>"aircraft instrument motor" designed to run on 115 V/400 Hz. (yes!), 95
>Watts, to make a 12,000 RPM drill-quill? WAS a project, but the result is

>amazingly-reliable, precision "drilling instrument", with NO air!

> I am not the list owner but as far as I can tell, if it relates to or aids
> in making home-brew PC boards, post away! Do give it descriptive subject,
> though.

> In a message dated 28-May-02 12:18:30 Central Daylight Time,
> dwayner@... writes:
>
>
> > I am not the list owner but as far as I can tell, if it relates
> to or aids
> > in making home-brew PC boards, post away! Do give it
> descriptive subject,
> > though.
>
> You ASKED for it! It will take me a while to type this up.
> Maybe will show
> tomorrow?
>
> Jan Rowland

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Has any tried to tilt the boards?


> Hi Hugh, Listies,
>
> I found a one-line entry for the Pencil Grinder, but no additional
> information.
>
> 307-0119 54,000 RPM FORCE PENCIL GRINDER $69.95
>
> I have the air (Sears compressor), and in-line oiler hardware, but I'm a
> little leery about having that oil/air exhaust near the board/material
> I'm cutting.
>
> Anybody seen a pix? or more info?
>
> Alan KM6VV
>
>
> Hugh Prescott wrote:
> >
> > Enco www.use-enco.com has a 54K rpm pencil air turbin in this months
> > specials.
> >
> > about US$ 60 plus shipping. Air CFM not stated. uses 1/8th shank
cutters.
> >
> > Enco has good stuff and bad stuff but they will refund or make it right
if
> > there is a problem.
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>Denny: I ordered one "to play with", too; thinking, for THAT price, no
>biggie either way. Was curious about the "Sioux" model that costs nearly
>twice as much in same catalog, thought. Wonder if that is "noticeably
>better"?????

>Clippard makes some super-fine electropneumatic valves, and those coupled
>with their piston-actuated two-way valves might make it possible to turn
>on/off the air except when this thing is "going down" for a hole.

> At 07:44 PM 06/11/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >Denny: I ordered one "to play with", too; thinking, for THAT

> >biggie either way. Was curious about the "Sioux" model that costs

> >twice as much in same catalog, thought. Wonder if that

> >better"?????
>
> Hi Jan,
> Like most industrial tools I suspect similar die grinders by

> Nu-Line or Foredom are substantially better, though they do cost a

> hundred bucks more. I have tools by Sioux and Foredom/Engis in the

> you can't kill 'em with a stick. The Enco seems to be a decent

> the money so I'll give it a shot for starters. Unlike my Sioux and

> tools I don't expect to see the Enco grinder still working daily in

> in 20 years. ;-)
> It would probably be worth keeping a spare Enco on hand and/or

> universal V-groove mount to accept a better quality grinder in the

> if it were needed.
>
> >Clippard makes some super-fine electropneumatic valves, and those

> >with their piston-actuated two-way valves might make it possible

> >on/off the air except when this thing is "going down" for a hole.
>
> Adding a solenoid valve to the mill is almost a given anyhow, I

> you've got a good idea shutting the grinder down whenever possible.

> very little rotating mass so spool time is very short.
> Denny

>Denny: Just got in the Enco 1/8" "air Die Grinder" with VERY nice
>1/8" collet, precision collet-nut and nose, and cloth braided O.D.
>air-hose with flexible muffler over that. Runs VERY fast, and
>exhaust is out the top, but without the muffler-tube over the hose,
>it is very noisy! Eats air! The average 3/4 hp compressor would
>probably run more than 50% of the time, if this thing was left on,
>with nothing else using the same air. I only played with it "out of
>the box" a minute or two, and it gets rapidly warm in half nearer the
>collet, so I guess it needs some 3-1 oil squirted down the air-hose,
>first. We'll see. I have no immmediate application, as my PCB-
>drill has that 400 Hz, 12,000 motor, but looks like this might work
>if a cleverly-machined hardened/ground shaft-jacket were machined
>over it, and it then used in a linear ball-bearing arrangement.
>Else, it would have to be mounted in a kludge with linear bearings,
>etc. The alum. body is 15.5 mm (0.610"), so would take some work to
>use it in a linear ball-bearing mount.
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>Anybody else checked this? Do I just have a bad (abused?) bunch
>of collets? An old one with a black oxide finish was better then
>the newer 'white' ones.

> >Anybody else checked this? Do I just have a bad (abused?) bunch
> >of collets? An old one with a black oxide finish was better then
> >the newer 'white' ones.
>
> Have you tried the coletless chuck? That one that looks like

>
>
> ---8<---Corte aqui---8<----
>
> Alexandre Souza
> taito@t...
> http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/pinball/
>
> ---8<---Corte aqui---8<----