What cleaner to use for preparing for TT
2004-07-29 by StevenManzer
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Thread
2004-07-29 by StevenManzer
2004-07-29 by mikezcnc
> Hi Everyone,
>
> It has been a while since I made some circuit boards, and I can not
> rememember what I used to clean the blank pcb prior to ironing on
> the toner.
>
> What do you suggest for cleaning the board (Isopropyl Alcohol,
> Varsol, Paint Thinner, Methol Hydrate, or something else)?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Steve
2004-07-29 by Stefan Trethan
> Hi Everyone,i use 600grit paper and then IPA or acetone.
>
> It has been a while since I made some circuit boards, and I can not
> rememember what I used to clean the blank pcb prior to ironing on
> the toner.
>
> What do you suggest for cleaning the board (Isopropyl Alcohol,
> Varsol, Paint Thinner, Methol Hydrate, or something else)?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Steve
>
>
2004-07-30 by Richard Mustakos
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them withto
> detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the toner
> stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't cleanthe
> oils off? Does it leave it's own coating?
> Richard
2004-07-30 by Phil
> I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them withto
> detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the toner
> stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't cleanthe
> oils off? Does it leave it's own coating?
> Richard
2004-07-30 by rmustakos
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> That question puzzled me, too. Originally I used a cigarette lighter
> fluid (european Benzine) which always removed something 'dirty' afer
> having used the dish washer soap (detergent). On a similar subject I
> read somwhere, maybe even on this board, that a paper towel leaves
> silicon dilms on board. Talking to a paper eengineer did not confirm
> it though.
>
> What is IPA?
>
> Mike
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> That's my experience, too. I use emery cloth (600 grit) as well as
a
> good detergent scrub and IPA (isopropyl alcohol or India Pale Ale -
I
> like 'em both). I always assumed that the soap leaves a residue
that
> decreases the bonding. Also some soaps/detergents have lanolin in
> them and that is way bad for bonding toner.
>
> I believe the emery cloth creates more surface area for the toner
to
> bond to. My results improved significantly with that.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mustakos
> <rmustakos@a...> wrote:
> > I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them with
> > detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the
toner
> to
> > stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't clean
> the
> > oils off? Does it leave it's own coating?
> > Richard
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> Mike Thanks for answering. IPA is isopropal alcohol, but I have tothink too hard to try to spell that, and I saw someone else just
> Does the rest of your anwser ("Originally ...") mean that now you:wrote:
> 1) rinse it with benzine and let it air dry,
> 2) wet a _cloth_ rag with benzine and wipe the board down,
> 3) douse it with benzine and burn off the film,
> 4) do something different, now?
> thanks
> Richard
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>
> > That question puzzled me, too. Originally I used a cigarettelighter
> > fluid (european Benzine) which always removed something 'dirty'afer
> > having used the dish washer soap (detergent). On a similarsubject I
> > read somwhere, maybe even on this board, that a paper towelleaves
> > silicon dilms on board. Talking to a paper eengineer did notconfirm
> > it though.
> >
> > What is IPA?
> >
> > Mike
2004-07-30 by Leon Heller
----- Original Message -----
From: "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 3:38 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What cleaner to use for preparing for TT
> IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
It's one of the safest solvents around:
http://www.dek.com/data/wipes_data.pdf
Leon
2004-07-30 by Phil
> IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.Is that true?? Isn't that what's in rubbing alcohol?
>
> Mike
>
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol).
>
> Mike
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> Mike Thanks for answering. IPA is isopropal alcohol, but I have topolish the surface with paper.
> think too hard to try to spell that, and I saw someone else just writing
> IPA, so I helped push the bandwagon.
> Does the rest of your anwser ("Originally ...") mean that now you:
> 1) rinse it with benzine and let it air dry,
> 2) wet a _cloth_ rag with benzine and wipe the board down,
> 3) douse it with benzine and burn off the film,
> 4) do something different, now?
> thanks
> Richard
>
2004-07-30 by Norman Stewart
2004-07-30 by Steve
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:Isopropyl Alcohol -is- rubbing alcohol. Rated by percent of alcohol vs
> > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> Is that true?? Isn't that what's in rubbing alcohol?
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
> Excuse the ignorance - I'm just returning to PC board fabricationafter a
> long absence. Years ago, when I was using Kepro and Kodakphotoresists, the
> best way I found to clean a board was with a chlorinated scouringpowder
> (Comet comes to mind). This left a bright, very mildly abradedsurface that
> had no problem supporting an unbroken film of water, and whendried, took
> the liquid photoresist nicely. Is this completely outdated, or notIt's what I use on anything that is not bright and shiny. My wife
> applicable for the toner transfer methods?
>
> Norm
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> Isopropyl Alcohol -is- rubbing alcohol. Rated by percent of alcohol vsI have tried acetone, but somehow IPA seems to work slightly better.
> water.
>
> Witch Hazel is rubbing alcohol aka IPA with extra junk tossed in.
>
> The only thing I recall from the MSDS sheet was a warning that it can
> "defat" the skin. IE, wash the oils out and dry it out.
>
> If you use 99% IPA, it dries much quicker from the board.
>
> Steve
>
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>
wrote:
> > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> Is that true?? Isn't that what's in rubbing alcohol?
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol).
> NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though).
>
> ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:28:36 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:
> Yes it is. Here is just three links and there is a lot of it
> available on IPA. I'm glad I could help.
> http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
> .html
error 404
>
> http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
can't open. It's not a webpage.
>
> http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
I may quote:
>>>>> start
Nevertheless, because of the concerns Dr. Clark has raised about the
safety of externally applied isopropyl alcohol, we have tried to do our
own independent research. What we have found is that, according to the
best scientific data available at this time, isopropyl alcohol is not a
carcinogen when used externally. Nasal cancers found in workers in
factories where this type of alcohol is produced are due not to the
isopropyl alcohol itself but to the strong acid used in its manufacture.
The "Material Safety Data Sheet" on Hibiclens® (which contains isopropyl
alcohol as a main ingredient) published by ICI Americas, Inc. states:
The manufacture of isopropyl alcohol by the strong acid process is
associated with paranasal sinus and laryngeal cancer in man. No other
information or data have linked isopropyl alcohol with cancer.1
>>>>> end
>
> etc, etc.
>
> Mike
>
PLEASE. provide one working document (from a reliable source) that says
it is carcinogenic and i will apologize for not believing you.
I have checked several MSDS and NONE stated IPA is carcinogen.
please research more carefully.
ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raisewith html it works,
> this issue.
>
> Mike
>
> http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
> .html
>>>>> startpidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl alcohol
>>>> endI'm not gonna make it just use it - so no strong acid.
>For you i went through the hassle of opening it with a text editor.
> http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
>
>>>> There is no evidence that Isopropyl Alcohol is a carcinogen.I have quoted the last one already.
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> Ok Mike,http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:28:36 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > Yes it is. Here is just three links and there is a lot of it
> > available on IPA. I'm glad I could help.
> >
> > .htmlhttp://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
>
> error 404
>
> >
> > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
>
> can't open. It's not a webpage.
>
> >
> >
>the
> I may quote:
>
> >>>>> start
> Nevertheless, because of the concerns Dr. Clark has raised about
> safety of externally applied isopropyl alcohol, we have tried to doour
> own independent research. What we have found is that, according tothe
> best scientific data available at this time, isopropyl alcohol isnot a
> carcinogen when used externally. Nasal cancers found in workers inmanufacture.
> factories where this type of alcohol is produced are due not to the
> isopropyl alcohol itself but to the strong acid used in its
> The "Material Safety Data Sheet" on Hibiclens® (which containsisopropyl
> alcohol as a main ingredient) published by ICI Americas, Inc.states:
> The manufacture of isopropyl alcohol by the strong acid process isother
> associated with paranasal sinus and laryngeal cancer in man. No
> information or data have linked isopropyl alcohol with cancer.1says
>
> >>>>> end
>
> >
> > etc, etc.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> PLEASE. provide one working document (from a reliable source) that
> it is carcinogenic and i will apologize for not believing you.
>
> I have checked several MSDS and NONE stated IPA is carcinogen.
>
> please research more carefully.
>
> ST
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:31:23 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:raise
>
> > IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to
> > this issue.http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > .htmlalcohol
>
> with html it works,
> i may quote again:
> >>>>> start
> pidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl
> and paranasal sinus cancer; however, subsequent analysis suggeststhat the
> "strong-acid" process used to manufacture isopropyl alcohol may beAgency for
> responsible for these cancers [ACGIH 1991]. The International
> Research on Cancer has concluded that the evidence for thecarcinogenicity
> of this process is adequate but that the evidence for isopropylalcohol
> itself is inadequate [IARC 1987].don't
> >>>> end
>
> I'm not gonna make it just use it - so no strong acid.
>
>
> >
> > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
> >
>
> For you i went through the hassle of opening it with a text editor.
> I may quote
>
> >>>> There is no evidence that Isopropyl Alcohol is a carcinogen.
>
>
> I have quoted the last one already.
> Please, if you provide links to strengten your claim make sure they
> (all three)
> negate it.
>
> ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> This is a second link - it opens up for me fine:Well, ok, i will delete all paragraphs not dealing with cancer.
> * There is an increased risk of cancer associated with theYou see, again, no carcinogen but the production is dangerous.
> manufacturing of Isopropyl Alcohol.
>
>
>
> Cancer Hazard
> * There is an increased incidence of nasal sinus cancer in
> workers involved in the manufacture of Isopropyl Alcohol by
> the strong acid process. There is no evidence that Isopropyl
> Alcohol is a carcinogen.
>
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> Stefan,Mike ;-)
>
> Like I said, I am not going to get into further discussion. I know it
> is and you know it isn't- I respect that. I provided three links and
> suggested that there is plenty more on internet but I did not want to
> get into discussion over mY THREE links- I jsut grabbed it what was
> at the top of the pile (rememeber the word 'semantics I used???)
> My purpose is not to do research and prove the thesis (or disapprove
> it).
>
> Mike
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:09:43 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:know it
>
> > Stefan,
> >
> > Like I said, I am not going to get into further discussion. I
> > is and you know it isn't- I respect that. I provided three linksand
> > suggested that there is plenty more on internet but I did notwant to
> > get into discussion over mY THREE links- I jsut grabbed it whatwas
> > at the top of the pile (rememeber the word 'semantics I used???)disapprove
> > My purpose is not to do research and prove the thesis (or
> > it).
> >
> > Mike
>
> Mike ;-)
>
> ANY link on the web says the same.
> EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself
> but the acid used int the production is.
>
> PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic?
> ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do.
>
> Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true.
>
> ST
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
> IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raiseSeperate the MANUFACTURE of it from the USE of it.
> this issue.
>
> Mike
> http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-AlcoholCancer Hazard
>http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelinesEpidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl
>/isopropylalcohol/recognition.html
>http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
>Stefan,
> ANY link on the web says the same.
> EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself
> but the acid used int the production is.
>
> PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic?
> ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do.
>
> Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true.
>
2004-07-30 by Don Bradbury
----- Original Message -----
From: mikezcnc
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:31 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What cleaner to use for preparing for TT
IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise
this issue.
Mike
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
.html
http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
etc, etc.
There is more than that and worded stronger too.
Mike
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol).
> NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though).
>
> ST
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2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> Mike read the second site you posted right thru .it is not acarcinogen......
> Don..for TT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mikezcnc
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:31 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What cleaner to use for preparing
>raise
>
> IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to
> this issue.http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
>
> Mike
>
>
> .htmlhttp://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
>
> http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
>
>
>wrote:
> etc, etc.
>
> There is more than that and worded stronger too.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...>
> >files:
> > > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol).
> > NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though).
> >
> > ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs----------
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
> Dan, since you are new to this discussion I will repeat, that thosethere
> are the links I just grabbed to show you there is something out
> and that something is not fully kosher.. Dig for more, I alreadysaid
> that, and if you are happy with what you found that will be it forMike, the three sites all agreed that IPA is not carcenogenic.
> you - 100%
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>wrote:
> > Dan, since you are new to this discussion I will repeat, thatthose
> > are the links I just grabbed to show you there is something outfor
> there
> > and that something is not fully kosher.. Dig for more, I already
> said
> > that, and if you are happy with what you found that will be it
> > you - 100%you
>
> Mike, the three sites all agreed that IPA is not carcenogenic.
>
> the second site even listed the reason it is on the list.
>
> quote :
>
> * This chemical is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List
> because it is FLAMMABLE.
>
> end quote.
>
> anything not fully kosher would be why there is no link on the
> internet that links IPA to being a carcinogenic.
>
> In this day of black helocopters and the perception of evil
> government conspiricies, one would expect some sites to at least
> claim there is a connection.
>
> But, if you feel better believing that protection is needed, they
> are going to be safer than those of us who do not. Heck, If myto
> cigarette were to catch alchol on fire I could be in deep do-do.
>
> Also, if you wear gloves and a mask, you are protected from other
> things that we are not.
>
> Or, better safe than sorry.
>
> Personally I never use aluminum cooking utencils or coffee makers
> keep the total alumin in my body down. There is a reason, but I
> forget.
>
> Dave
2004-07-30 by Steve
> IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raisehttp://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition.html
> this issue.
>
> Mike
>
>
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
>Well, for me the only thing of interest is the truth, and what
>
>
> Stefan,
>
> Like I said the issue is dead for me, I am not interested in proving
> anything I write- too much time. I tried to steer people in the right
> direction and that's it. Whoever wants to run further with it, may do
> so. I enoyed this morning (for me) discussion because we have learned
> a lot on many subjects It is what it is for me and it is what it is
> for you and anybody interested in it. :) Mike
2004-07-30 by Thomas P. Gootee
>Stefan,
> ANY link on the web says the same.
> EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself
> but the acid used int the production is.
>
> PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic?
> ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do.
>
> Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true.
>
2004-07-31 by mikezcnc
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:02 -0000up,
> From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> Subject: Re: What cleaner -- IPA and MSDS
>
>
> >
> > ANY link on the web says the same.
> > EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself
> > but the acid used int the production is.
> >
> > PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic?
> > ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do.
> >
> > Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true.
> >
>
>
> Stefan,
>
> May I suggest you let well enough alone ?
>
> If one wanted to believe something and they have their mind made
> you cannot change it.aflatoxin. It is a mold or fungus that grows naturally on CORN,
>
> I could make a case that food is carcenogenic. As research has
> shown, every single human that has ever had any form of cancer has
> eaten.
>
> Dave
>
> -----------
>
> Dave,
>
> Welll...... Actually....
>
> One of the most-carcinogenic substances on earth is called
>(Breathing too much water can kill you!)
> Also, remember how dangerous pure water is. And breathing, too.
>treatment plants, added to the water in HUGE quantities. Some of
> By the way, I found out that FERRIC CHLORIDE is used by wastewater
>(as opposed to "natural" substances)? MANKIND is, itself, a part of
> What IS some peoples' "problem", with "man-made chemicals", anyway
>word "organic"? Didn't they ever hear of "organic chemistry"?
> And who allowed the enviro-paranoid-whackos to co-opt the
>
> Hehe,
>
> Tom Gootee
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-07-31 by Dave Mucha
>suggestd
>
> Tom, I am done with this subject. You missed my point when I
> for anybody curious like yourself, to do their own research. Pleasefurther
> realize how carefully I am crafting this email not raise any
> discussion. Do your own research if that subject interests you. IUmm.... we did the research. We checked MSDS on IPA, FDA, FCC, FAA,
> don't have a need for IPA in my process, as previously mentioned.
> Good luck.
>
>Mike