Homebrew PCBs

http://www.radixgmbh.de/index.html?tanbo.htm

800euro machine drippling PCBs. Just in case to keep a $1000 driller 
in perception. Enjoy, Mike.

Uhh, 

The idea would be nice, but the machine is crap - well, especially the
software is as bugy as software can get, but also the machine is
really not up to the task. Stay clear of this one - really. I have one
here which a friend gave me to check if I could maybe fix the software
/ write some on my own. It could be doable, but my conclusion was that
it's easier to build a x-y-z kind of machine instead.

Markus

>http://www.radixgmbh.de/index.html?tanbo.htm
>
>800euro machine drippling PCBs. Just in case to keep a $1000 driller 
>in perception. Enjoy, Mike.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> http://www.radixgmbh.de/index.html?tanbo.htm
> 
> 800euro machine drippling PCBs. Just in case to keep a $1000 
driller 
> in perception. Enjoy, Mike.

800 Euro i about $1,500 USD so there is a limit.

But, even if all Ballendo's machine is good for is to drill PCB's it 
has a larger work envelope as well as more support.

I have tried to design a low cost drill/etcher and have come up with 
a cost of more than Ballendo is selling for.  Makes it hard to resist.

Dave

Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.

How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to be 
mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so I 
don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so LOW?)

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> > http://www.radixgmbh.de/index.html?tanbo.htm
> > 
> > 800euro machine drippling PCBs. Just in case to keep a $1000 
> driller 
> > in perception. Enjoy, Mike.
> 
> 800 Euro i about $1,500 USD so there is a limit.
> 
> But, even if all Ballendo's machine is good for is to drill PCB's 
it 
> has a larger work envelope as well as more support.
> 
> I have tried to design a low cost drill/etcher and have come up 
with 
> a cost of more than Ballendo is selling for.  Makes it hard to 
resist.
> 
> Dave

In a message dated 7/26/2004 10:10:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
eemikez@... writes:
I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's hidden behind the Z... <<
Mike:  No, I think the entire table-top moves on this, so the Y motor is 
"down in there" under the table.  A guess.

Does this EUR 1200,- price include the DRIVERS?  Expensive just for the metal 
parts in the view!  And NO "quill motor"?  Is one supposed to use one of 
those awful things with sleeve-bearings wit 0.005" play?  

Look in FILES; third one down.  That is home-brew, with Thomson linear 
bearings and Class-L way-shafting.  This can be built with Xylotex drives and 
Size-23/single-stack bipolar motors.  Here, as I made this in '84, I used (old) 
unipolar and home-brew drivers.  HOT (wasteful) "ballast resistors".  Never again! 
           Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> 
> How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to be 
> mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so I 
> don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so LOW?)
> 
> Mike
> 

Hi Mike,

I know and use G-code so an X/Y would be much faster for me to get up 
to speed with.

I just ran thru a design for a 12 x 12 x 2" work envelope machine.  
it would use $150.00 worth of mechanical parts in the form of 
aluminum and ground shaft and such.  I figure another $100 for the 
electronics, so before I look at steppers and lead screws, I'm up to 
$250.00.

Using all-thread and surplus steppers would up the cost to around 
$300.00 for a unit that is pretty good.  Using ACME screws would not 
all too much to the cost, but the big factor would be the machine 
time to drill and tap all the holes to make the unit stable in all 
directions.

Since I don't have a milling machine, it would cost me a couple 
hundred $$ to have all the holes drilled and tapped to get that good 
alignment that would be needed to eliminate poor fits.

Then assembly of the unit would be a few more hours.

IF (really big IF) all the motions went perfectly and I got a great 
deal on the machining and all the parts fit flawlessly I still would 
be over $500.00 for the machine.

The head on the Z axis is still a question.  There are more than a 
few ways to actuate that, but since I'm mostly concerned with 
drilling, it is of little importance.

I did a design recently for a proposal and used ballscrews and linear 
rails and the cost was close to $2,000.00 for a 12 x 18 x 4 work 
envelope. 

If I had access to a milling machine, I would be done already, but my 
access retired last year and moved on to those things old machinests 
do when they retire.

I had thought of trying to barter with someone who has a mill for a 
machine, but that is hard to do.  Most people who have a mill don't 
need PCB's and already to the machining.  

My Neighbor has a Bridgeport but it is in stoarage as he has no place 
to put it.  When that gets mounted, then I will make my machine as I 
can trade machining time for use.  He's an auto mechanic and I spent 
5 years working in a machine shop.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/26/2004 10:10:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
> eemikez@c... writes:
> I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's hidden behind the Z... <<
> Mike:  No, I think the entire table-top moves on this, so the Y 
motor is 
> "down in there" under the table.  A guess.
> 
> Does this EUR 1200,- price include the DRIVERS?  Expensive just for 
the metal 
> parts in the view!  And NO "quill motor"?  Is one supposed to use 
one of 
> those awful things with sleeve-bearings wit 0.005" play?  
> 
> Look in FILES; third one down.  That is home-brew, with Thomson 
linear 
> bearings and Class-L way-shafting.  This can be built with Xylotex 
drives and 
> Size-23/single-stack bipolar motors.  Here, as I made this in '84, 
I used (old) 
> unipolar and home-brew drivers.  HOT (wasteful) "ballast 
resistors".  Never again! 
>            Jan Rowland


Hi Jan,

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QNMFQXGRpKKaf9_jsvxJ2gJc7fqs6b7iTOlaNbJzv
SL-ZJkBZD0tE-Ap-tYKGACAfgs9TTlB6rHqDXbnzliF0QXHvdyRT7Hr/Homemade%
20PCB%20equipment/Dscn0329.jpg

darn, I hate yohoo urls.

files section > Homemade PCB equipment > Dscn0329.jpg 
third file in that folder.

If you priced out that unit today, I think the bearings and shafting 
will be close to $500.00  and that is before you make the table, or 
drivers or power supply.  Add the leadscrews and although you have a 
huge work envelope, it still is more than most of us need.

I just made an 11.7" x 6" board for the first time.  I could have 
reduced it to about 10" x 6" if need be, manybe more, and would have 
been happy to make two boards if needed.

But, there is some cost savings in just buying the thing and not 
spending the hours to learn and then design.  In the year (on and 
off) it took to design a stepper driver that would be competitive to 
the Gecko, I could have saved those many hours and been further ahead 
on many other projects.  And, in the end, I wound up buying the 
Geckos as I needed something to drive the machine in the first place.

Someday, I'll actually finish the project and assemble and test the 
units.

Dave

Jan, Dave, thanks for commenting.

Dave, I re-read your post five times and to me it was a very dramatic 
story.

I know from your posts that you are exceptionally qualified on the 
subject. Since you have done so much work, have you considered 
writing down plans and selling them. That is exactly what John 
Kleinbauer.com does. Take a look here: 
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?
ProductID=2353 He sells plans for retrofitting a minimill, you could 
have your own plans and you already have a yahoo group with great 
following.

I used to have a T-tech that I should have kept for drilling. Now I 
have a Sherline 5000 that has a very long  (7") X but very short Y 
(3"). That is way to short for boards I have in mind. I am looking 
into moving a Z-column behind the base. I posted that message on CNC 
SHerline butit did not post it- I don't know why. Does it make sense 
to place that Sherline on a thick and larger base and relocate the 
base of Z behind the original base? That would gain another 3 " and 
overall would work for me. Maybe you heard of that kind of 
modification. Sherline is an unusually rigid machine and I can feel 
it would be great for PCBs.  Mike




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> > Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> > www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> > 
> > How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to 
be 
> > mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> > hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so 
I 
> > don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so 
LOW?)
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> I know and use G-code so an X/Y would be much faster for me to get 
up 
> to speed with.
> 
> I just ran thru a design for a 12 x 12 x 2" work envelope machine.  
> it would use $150.00 worth of mechanical parts in the form of 
> aluminum and ground shaft and such.  I figure another $100 for the 
> electronics, so before I look at steppers and lead screws, I'm up 
to 
> $250.00.
> 
> Using all-thread and surplus steppers would up the cost to around 
> $300.00 for a unit that is pretty good.  Using ACME screws would 
not 
> all too much to the cost, but the big factor would be the machine 
> time to drill and tap all the holes to make the unit stable in all 
> directions.
> 
> Since I don't have a milling machine, it would cost me a couple 
> hundred $$ to have all the holes drilled and tapped to get that 
good 
> alignment that would be needed to eliminate poor fits.
> 
> Then assembly of the unit would be a few more hours.
> 
> IF (really big IF) all the motions went perfectly and I got a great 
> deal on the machining and all the parts fit flawlessly I still 
would 
> be over $500.00 for the machine.
> 
> The head on the Z axis is still a question.  There are more than a 
> few ways to actuate that, but since I'm mostly concerned with 
> drilling, it is of little importance.
> 
> I did a design recently for a proposal and used ballscrews and 
linear 
> rails and the cost was close to $2,000.00 for a 12 x 18 x 4 work 
> envelope. 
> 
> If I had access to a milling machine, I would be done already, but 
my 
> access retired last year and moved on to those things old 
machinests 
> do when they retire.
> 
> I had thought of trying to barter with someone who has a mill for a 
> machine, but that is hard to do.  Most people who have a mill don't 
> need PCB's and already to the machining.  
> 
> My Neighbor has a Bridgeport but it is in stoarage as he has no 
place 
> to put it.  When that gets mounted, then I will make my machine as 
I 
> can trade machining time for use.  He's an auto mechanic and I 
spent 

> 5 years working in a machine shop.
> 
> Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Jan, Dave, thanks for commenting.
> 
> Dave, I re-read your post five times and to me it was a very 
dramatic 
> story.
> 
> I know from your posts that you are exceptionally qualified on the 
> subject. Since you have done so much work, have you considered 
> writing down plans and selling them. 

I have thought about it, but there is one preresuiquite, and that is 
to actually build the thing.  For about 5 years, our office was a few 
blocks away from an owner run, one-man machine shop.  I would stop by 
every couple months to get some part or another made and would get 
pulled into some sort of project or another.  I wired the phones, ran 
a computer network for his CNC, upgraded his PC for the CNC, repaired 
the contactors on his lathe, hung a cabinet, leveled his large 
mill... you know the type of work.  need an extra hand and it gets 
done.  He offered me free run of the shop for the last 6 months 
before he retried.  I moved and got married, so I was out of luck on 
the machining side of things.

I was able to make a couple Z axis for a different drilling machine 
so I did get some benifits from the exchange.


 
> I used to have a T-tech that I should have kept for drilling. Now I 
> have a Sherline 5000 that has a very long  (7") X but very short Y 
> (3"). That is way to short for boards I have in mind. I am looking 
> into moving a Z-column behind the base. I posted that message on 
CNC 
> SHerline butit did not post it- I don't know why. Does it make 
sense 
> to place that Sherline on a thick and larger base and relocate the 
> base of Z behind the original base? That would gain another 3 " and 
> overall would work for me. Maybe you heard of that kind of 
> modification. Sherline is an unusually rigid machine and I can feel 
> it would be great for PCBs.  Mike

I am not familiar with the Sherline, but mechanical stability of a 
machine is far worse than you might imagine.  Put a dia indicator on 
your column and chuck up a 1/16 drill bit and drill a small aluminum 
part.  you will be amazed at how much movement there is on that dial 
indicator.

Moving the column back, or the spindle forward will put considderably 
more mechanical advantage (or disadvantage) on your column.  It would 
need some sort of reinforcement.  But, that is not a bad thing, nor 
hard to do.  Almost any type of additional support will add a huge 
amount of support and stability.

A quick look at the model 2000 shows that they have a method of 
offering a much deeper throat.  Considder mounting your mill on a 1/4 
steel plate that extends those many inches behind your table.  Then 
bolt in a couple uprights that are relativly short, but high enough 
to allow you to add two 1/4 inch rods to the top of your column on a 
45 degree angle.  That would offer full table movement and a 
considderabley more stable head.

If I was to need a small hobby mill, I'd considder one of those 
$199.99 cast iron units from Homier called a drill/mill. or that $699 
Mill Drill that is like a Rong-Fu bench mill.  I think you could put 
your Sherline in a vice on that sucker.

It would offer the ability to do heavy milling, but lacks any Z axis 
feed.  A CNC converson would be simple to do, but would need heavy 
motors to make it work.

Thinking about it, buying one of those 600 pound monsters would allow 
me to do the kit plans for a pretty large CNC PCB machine.  One 
problem is that Homier road shows are few and far between and it is 
rare they have the big mills. 

Now, if I can only find the time.....

Dave







> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" 
<dave_mucha@y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> > > www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> > > 
> > > How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to 
> be 
> > > mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> > > hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list 
so 
> I 
> > > don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so 
> LOW?)
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > 
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > I know and use G-code so an X/Y would be much faster for me to 
get 
> up 
> > to speed with.
> > 
> > I just ran thru a design for a 12 x 12 x 2" work envelope 
machine.  
> > it would use $150.00 worth of mechanical parts in the form of 
> > aluminum and ground shaft and such.  I figure another $100 for 
the 
> > electronics, so before I look at steppers and lead screws, I'm up 
> to 
> > $250.00.
> > 
> > Using all-thread and surplus steppers would up the cost to around 
> > $300.00 for a unit that is pretty good.  Using ACME screws would 
> not 
> > all too much to the cost, but the big factor would be the machine 
> > time to drill and tap all the holes to make the unit stable in 
all 
> > directions.
> > 
> > Since I don't have a milling machine, it would cost me a couple 
> > hundred $$ to have all the holes drilled and tapped to get that 
> good 
> > alignment that would be needed to eliminate poor fits.
> > 
> > Then assembly of the unit would be a few more hours.
> > 
> > IF (really big IF) all the motions went perfectly and I got a 
great 
> > deal on the machining and all the parts fit flawlessly I still 
> would 
> > be over $500.00 for the machine.
> > 
> > The head on the Z axis is still a question.  There are more than 
a 
> > few ways to actuate that, but since I'm mostly concerned with 
> > drilling, it is of little importance.
> > 
> > I did a design recently for a proposal and used ballscrews and 
> linear 
> > rails and the cost was close to $2,000.00 for a 12 x 18 x 4 work 
> > envelope. 
> > 
> > If I had access to a milling machine, I would be done already, 
but 
> my 
> > access retired last year and moved on to those things old 
> machinests 
> > do when they retire.
> > 
> > I had thought of trying to barter with someone who has a mill for 
a 
> > machine, but that is hard to do.  Most people who have a mill 
don't 
> > need PCB's and already to the machining.  
> > 
> > My Neighbor has a Bridgeport but it is in stoarage as he has no 
> place 
> > to put it.  When that gets mounted, then I will make my machine 
as 

> I 
> > can trade machining time for use.  He's an auto mechanic and I 
> spent 
> > 5 years working in a machine shop.
> > 
> > Dave

>Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
>www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
>
>How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to be 
>mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
>hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so I 
>don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so LOW?)
>
>Mike

Yet another unuseable machine! The Z Axis sits in a plastic housing
with lot's of play. Have you taken the time to read the manufacturers
support forum? 

Markus

Markus,

So right...

The other problem is when you try to make lines for front panels or 
any other sdort of cutting acition which requires at least a somewhat 
steady cutting speed. the tanbo style of axis arrangement means that 
often you will be needing the "spin" axis to be moving FAR faster 
than it is capable of moving, according to the laws of physics. Not a 
problem for drilling; but there's areson wyou don't see thius type of 
axis arrangement in ttypical cutting cnc's...

Because if it were viable, the lower cost of mfg. would surely make 
it prominent...

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> Uhh, 
> 
> The idea would be nice, but the machine is crap - well, especially 
the
> software is as bugy as software can get, but also the machine is
> really not up to the task. Stay clear of this one - really. I have 
one
> here which a friend gave me to check if I could maybe fix the 
software
> / write some on my own. It could be doable, but my conclusion was 
that
> it's easier to build a x-y-z kind of machine instead.
> 
> Markus
> 
> >http://www.radixgmbh.de/index.html?tanbo.htm
> >
> >800euro machine drippling PCBs. Just in case to keep a $1000 
driller 
> >in perception. Enjoy, Mike.

Hello,

The EAS machines are nice! They use a proprietary extrusion and mated 
polymer bearing which is anything but "off-the-shelf"...

Notice the dangling cables I mentioned<G> It's interesting how oftem 
mfrs. show their pcb drilling or cnc engraving cutting machines in 
cropped and "posed" pictures which don't tell the whole story. 

Everybody here knows that a dangling wire attached to a moving object 
is a poor choice...

But these ARE good machines. If you don't buy one of mine; these 
would be a good choice IMO.

Ballendo

P.S. Stefan is a member, just like the rest of us, and we ARE talking 
about the means to Homebrew PCB's... 
But here's what you asked for: Ballendo@...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

> Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> 
> How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to be 
> mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so I 
> don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so LOW?)
> 
> Mike

Hello,

Forgot to add that all the EAS machines are of moving table design. 
This will be no problem for PCB's, but it WILL limit you on larger 
heavier items.

A gantry machine like mine can cut a 100 pound workpiece as easily as 
a 2 oz one...

And if you want to make an 8 foot sign, you will have to set up 
rollers with a moving table design like EAS. A gantry design like 
mine will make long signs with only "leveling" support for whatever 
is overhanging...

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

> Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> 
> How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to be 
> mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so I 
> don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so LOW?)
> 
> Mike

Hello,

The way to use a sherline to make PCB's is to add a 2 x6 x 1/4 wall 
rectangular tubing extrusion to the mill table. then set the mill up 
in "horizontal mode" (using their conversion plate makes it easy; but 
that is only a plate of alumiunum with some well placed 1/4-20 tapped 
holes. Anyone with a drill press could make their own , and someone 
with a hand drill could do a work-able job of it.

Anyways, what you NOW have is a VERTICAL travel of 6+ inches, 
your "normal" x travel of 8-9 or so, and the "former" Y axis is what 
feeds your bits...

The problem with a sherline for PCB work is twofold. First, even with 
the hi-speed spindle option, you still only have 10K rpm's... Which 
means you're going to have TERRIBLE cutter life, pcb epoxy smear in 
the holes, burrs, etc.

And second, the mass of the machine parts, and the fine thread of the 
leadscrews means that you'll be cutting slowly, again a recipe for 
less-than-stellar results... Been there, done that, still have the 
2x6 rect tube<G>

(In fact, I might have some I could sell, if someone is interested in 
trying the sherline setup I mentioned. It DOES work for Pcb's to some 
degree--better than a std. sherline setup anyways-- and for other 
things besides pcb's and is a great way to turn a 5000 mill from an 
8x3 to a 6x8... A 5400 or 2000 will not see as greast an increase; 
but the ntuaral choip clearing from the vertical cutting is still an 
improvment) Maybe I'll put together a kit for this too?

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Jan, Dave, thanks for commenting.
> 
> Dave, I re-read your post five times and to me it was a very 
dramatic 
> story.
> 
> I know from your posts that you are exceptionally qualified on the 
> subject. Since you have done so much work, have you considered 
> writing down plans and selling them. That is exactly what John 
> Kleinbauer.com does. Take a look here: 
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?
> ProductID=2353 He sells plans for retrofitting a minimill, you 
could 
> have your own plans and you already have a yahoo group with great 
> following.
> 
> I used to have a T-tech that I should have kept for drilling. Now I 
> have a Sherline 5000 that has a very long  (7") X but very short Y 
> (3"). That is way to short for boards I have in mind. I am looking 
> into moving a Z-column behind the base. I posted that message on 
CNC 
> SHerline butit did not post it- I don't know why. Does it make 
sense 
> to place that Sherline on a thick and larger base and relocate the 
> base of Z behind the original base? That would gain another 3 " and 
> overall would work for me. Maybe you heard of that kind of 
> modification. Sherline is an unusually rigid machine and I can feel 
> it would be great for PCBs.  Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" 
<dave_mucha@y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> > > www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> > > 
> > > How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to 
> be 
> > > mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> > > hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list 
so 
> I 
> > > don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so 
> LOW?)
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > 
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > I know and use G-code so an X/Y would be much faster for me to 
get 
> up 
> > to speed with.
> > 
> > I just ran thru a design for a 12 x 12 x 2" work envelope 
machine.  
> > it would use $150.00 worth of mechanical parts in the form of 
> > aluminum and ground shaft and such.  I figure another $100 for 
the 
> > electronics, so before I look at steppers and lead screws, I'm up 
> to 
> > $250.00.
> > 
> > Using all-thread and surplus steppers would up the cost to around 
> > $300.00 for a unit that is pretty good.  Using ACME screws would 
> not 
> > all too much to the cost, but the big factor would be the machine 
> > time to drill and tap all the holes to make the unit stable in 
all 
> > directions.
> > 
> > Since I don't have a milling machine, it would cost me a couple 
> > hundred $$ to have all the holes drilled and tapped to get that 
> good 
> > alignment that would be needed to eliminate poor fits.
> > 
> > Then assembly of the unit would be a few more hours.
> > 
> > IF (really big IF) all the motions went perfectly and I got a 
great 
> > deal on the machining and all the parts fit flawlessly I still 
> would 
> > be over $500.00 for the machine.
> > 
> > The head on the Z axis is still a question.  There are more than 
a 
> > few ways to actuate that, but since I'm mostly concerned with 
> > drilling, it is of little importance.
> > 
> > I did a design recently for a proposal and used ballscrews and 
> linear 
> > rails and the cost was close to $2,000.00 for a 12 x 18 x 4 work 
> > envelope. 
> > 
> > If I had access to a milling machine, I would be done already, 
but 
> my 
> > access retired last year and moved on to those things old 
> machinests 
> > do when they retire.
> > 
> > I had thought of trying to barter with someone who has a mill for 
a 
> > machine, but that is hard to do.  Most people who have a mill 
don't 
> > need PCB's and already to the machining.  
> > 
> > My Neighbor has a Bridgeport but it is in stoarage as he has no 
> place 
> > to put it.  When that gets mounted, then I will make my machine 
as 

> I 
> > can trade machining time for use.  He's an auto mechanic and I 
> spent 
> > 5 years working in a machine shop.
> > 
> > Dave

>Markus writes:
>Yet another unuseable machine! The Z Axis sits in a plastic housing
>with lot's of play. Have you taken the time to read the manufacturers
>support forum? 
 
Markus,

No I hadn't... My comments were based on the pictures at their 
website which included work pieces made during a trade show in 
Germany, I think...

Where is their support forum?

I have to add that I looked pretty closely at the extrusion and 
polymer bearing design of these machines, and it certainly appears 
that any looseness or inaccuracy is adjustably remove-able. But it 
may require a bit of work to get it properly adjusted...

I DO think that sometimes you have to be careful when reading a 
support forum, because only the folks who can't solve the problem on 
their own will write in... The others simply make the adjustments to 
their machine(s) and work happily and quietly... 

I can imagine that more than a few folks will have trouble 
duplicating the results you get with your THP setup; even though you 
know from your own efforts that it works well...

Thank you for the added information,

Ballendo


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> >Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> >www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> >
> >How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to be 
> >mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> >hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so I 
> >don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so LOW?)
> >
> >Mike
> 
> Yet another unuseable machine! The Z Axis sits in a plastic housing
> with lot's of play. Have you taken the time to read the 
manufacturers

> support forum? 
> 
> Markus

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:05:52 -0000, you wrote:

>>Markus writes:
>>Yet another unuseable machine! The Z Axis sits in a plastic housing
>>with lot's of play. Have you taken the time to read the manufacturers
>>support forum? 
> 
>Markus,
>
>No I hadn't... My comments were based on the pictures at their 
>website which included work pieces made during a trade show in 
>Germany, I think...
>
>Where is their support forum?

It's a while ago since I was there. Maybe they have even closed it
down to hide the complaints. It's also important to note that my
critics are aroudn this very machine the picture was presented which
from what I understand is their lowest priced model. The bigger ones
seem to be ok though but again, this specific model is useing a plasic
housing for the Z axis which is my (and others) main point of critics
with regard to the stiffness of the construction. 

Markus

Ballendo,

Thank you for your feedback on Sherline. I got some parts today and I 
will be bolting pieces together. Pretty much because it can be done 
otherwise I am anxiously waiting for your mill to become available. 

Sincerely,

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:
> >Markus writes:
> >Yet another unuseable machine! The Z Axis sits in a plastic housing
> >with lot's of play. Have you taken the time to read the 
manufacturers
> >support forum? 
>  
> Markus,
> 
> No I hadn't... My comments were based on the pictures at their 
> website which included work pieces made during a trade show in 
> Germany, I think...
> 
> Where is their support forum?
> 
> I have to add that I looked pretty closely at the extrusion and 
> polymer bearing design of these machines, and it certainly appears 
> that any looseness or inaccuracy is adjustably remove-able. But it 
> may require a bit of work to get it properly adjusted...
> 
> I DO think that sometimes you have to be careful when reading a 
> support forum, because only the folks who can't solve the problem 
on 
> their own will write in... The others simply make the adjustments 
to 
> their machine(s) and work happily and quietly... 
> 
> I can imagine that more than a few folks will have trouble 
> duplicating the results you get with your THP setup; even though 
you 
> know from your own efforts that it works well...
> 
> Thank you for the added information,
> 
> Ballendo
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
> wrote:
> > >Dave, thank you for commenting. Have a look at this: 
> > >www.easgmbh.de/images/Bgs60.jpg I think it was about 1200 euro.
> > >
> > >How hard would it be to make something like that? Parts seem to 
be 
> > >mostly from a catalog. I don't see the Y-axis motor, maybe it's 
> > >hidden behind the Z... ALso, how to contact Ballendo off list so 
I 
> > >don't irritate Stefan for the n-th time? (is dollar sunken so 
LOW?)
> > >
> > >Mike
> > 
> > Yet another unuseable machine! The Z Axis sits in a plastic 
housing

> > with lot's of play. Have you taken the time to read the 
> manufacturers
> > support forum? 
> > 
> > Markus