Homebrew PCBs

There are two types on the market - one containing acetone or lacquer
thinner and alcohol (?), the other being primarily perchlorethylene,
"perc", aka dry-cleaning fluid.

Perc won't eat plastics like acetone will - test before you
get a gucky mess.... / mark

Be on the lookout for Methyline Chloride too. It is used in brake 
cleaner,
paint stripper, and decaffeinating coffee (!). It's wicked stuff, and 
melts
lots of plastics and paint.

Regards,
   JJ

On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 10:20 AM, Mark wrote:

> There are two types on the market - one containing acetone or lacquer
> thinner and alcohol (?), the other being primarily perchlorethylene,
> "perc", aka dry-cleaning fluid.
>
> Perc won't eat plastics like acetone will - test before you
> get a gucky mess.... / mark
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:37:22 -0400, John Johnson <johnatl@...> wrote:

> Be on the lookout for Methyline Chloride too. It is used in brake
> cleaner,
> paint stripper, and decaffeinating coffee (!). It's wicked stuff, and
> melts
> lots of plastics and paint.
>
> Regards,
>    JJ

well, it must eat plastic toner, but not the epoxy PCB.

Strangely paint thinner works, which is not really a problem
to work with.. ventilation needed of course...

I still prefer scraping and cleaning up the rest with IPA.

ST

Hi,

Just tried making a TT component legend on the solder / copper side.

<http://st.such.info/esr_bot.jpg>

You see it didn't work out well.

The raised copper prevents good contact on the etched areas.
I expected this already so i additionally run it upside down through the 
fuser
, hoping the lower silicone rubber roller will press the
paper against the board better, and i hoped the heating will still be 
enough.
(only the upper aluminium roller is heated).

I don't know if it will be better with more runs through the fuser, or 
maybe more pressure.
the copper transfer also seems uneven, maybe the board was warped in the 
first place.

The top transfer went OK, as always now.
You can clearly see the limitations of my old printer.

<http://st.such.info/esr_top.jpg>

I will keep trying getting the component legend to work with traces 
present.


Well, ideas welcome as always.

ST

Hi Stefan,

My thoughts are in using a cloth or something that can be compressed 
easily.  the cloth on top of the paper would push more on the paper 
so it would (hopefully) let the letters touch.

Also, there is (expensive) transfer paper you can buy at hobby 
stores.  You can print on it and then like a decal, transfer it to 
the board.  This will not work with SMD parts as it also acts like a 
coating on the board.

Dave




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Just tried making a TT component legend on the solder / copper side.
> 
> <http://st.such.info/esr_bot.jpg>
> 
> You see it didn't work out well.
> 
> The raised copper prevents good contact on the etched areas.
> I expected this already so i additionally run it upside down 
through the 
> fuser
> , hoping the lower silicone rubber roller will press the
> paper against the board better, and i hoped the heating will still 
be 
> enough.
> (only the upper aluminium roller is heated).
> 
> I don't know if it will be better with more runs through the fuser, 
or 
> maybe more pressure.
> the copper transfer also seems uneven, maybe the board was warped 
in the 

> first place.
> 
> The top transfer went OK, as always now.
> You can clearly see the limitations of my old printer.
> 
> <http://st.such.info/esr_top.jpg>
> 
> I will keep trying getting the component legend to work with traces 
> present.
> 
> 
> Well, ideas welcome as always.
> 
> ST

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:15:04 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> My thoughts are in using a cloth or something that can be compressed
> easily.  the cloth on top of the paper would push more on the paper
> so it would (hopefully) let the letters touch.
>
> Also, there is (expensive) transfer paper you can buy at hobby
> stores.  You can print on it and then like a decal, transfer it to
> the board.  This will not work with SMD parts as it also acts like a
> coating on the board.
>
> Dave
>

anything that doesn't work for SMD is of no use as i can make near perfect
legend on the top side of the board - for throughhole components.

I also think something compressible might work.
I had the silicone rubber lower pressure roller in mind, but it seems
there the temperature isn't high enough. I will see if cranking
the fuser temp. up a bit makes it any better.

It could also be that the paper is just to stiff to be bent that much
but i do not think this is the case because in some places the transfer
continues just besides the trace with only a tiny gap. (i wouldn't mind
the gap).


This needs more experimenting, i'm sure it can be done.

ST

I've had good luck putting legends over traces by burnishing with the 
edge of the iron. (not sure if thats the correct term).  After 
ironing on the legend, I tilt the iron and rub with the thin edge.  
It forces the paper to make better contact.  You could probably use 
anything with a reasonably small radius on a hot board/paper assembly 
but you'd have to work fast before the board temp dropped below the 
fusing point.

I also prep the etched board with emery cloth - currently using 600 
grit.  This roughens it up and creates more surface area for the 
toner to cling to. 

It works quite well, I can get really good adhesion of the legend.  
I've got a picture around here some where, if I find it I'll post.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:15:04 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Stefan,
> >
> > My thoughts are in using a cloth or something that can be 
compressed
> > easily.  the cloth on top of the paper would push more on the 
paper
> > so it would (hopefully) let the letters touch.
> >
> > Also, there is (expensive) transfer paper you can buy at hobby
> > stores.  You can print on it and then like a decal, transfer it to
> > the board.  This will not work with SMD parts as it also acts 
like a
> > coating on the board.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> 
> anything that doesn't work for SMD is of no use as i can make near 
perfect
> legend on the top side of the board - for throughhole components.
> 
> I also think something compressible might work.
> I had the silicone rubber lower pressure roller in mind, but it 
seems
> there the temperature isn't high enough. I will see if cranking
> the fuser temp. up a bit makes it any better.
> 
> It could also be that the paper is just to stiff to be bent that 
much
> but i do not think this is the case because in some places the 
transfer
> continues just besides the trace with only a tiny gap. (i wouldn't 
mind

> the gap).
> 
> 
> This needs more experimenting, i'm sure it can be done.
> 
> ST

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:45:29 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> I've had good luck putting legends over traces by burnishing with the
> edge of the iron. (not sure if thats the correct term).  After
> ironing on the legend, I tilt the iron and rub with the thin edge.
> It forces the paper to make better contact.  You could probably use
> anything with a reasonably small radius on a hot board/paper assembly
> but you'd have to work fast before the board temp dropped below the
> fusing point.
>
> I also prep the etched board with emery cloth - currently using 600
> grit.  This roughens it up and creates more surface area for the
> toner to cling to.
>
> It works quite well, I can get really good adhesion of the legend.
> I've got a picture around here some where, if I find it I'll post.

i prepare the copper with 600grit paper for the initial transfer for 
etching,
i thought i can omit this step for the legend.
The toner seems to hold very well t th gh epoxy surface where the copper 
was.

I'd like to not use a iron and a rather tedious step in production,
i will try a few things with the fuser and let you know...

ST

In article <D68D23C0-C522-11D8-B868-000A9589294C@...>,
   John Johnson <johnatl@...> wrote:
> Be on the lookout for Methyline Chloride too. It is used in brake 
> cleaner,
> paint stripper, and decaffeinating coffee (!). It's wicked stuff, and 
> melts
> lots of plastics and paint.

Realising the definition of the word "wicked" has changed in recent years,
I am wondering what meaning you are giving it.

Methylene Chloride is highly toxic, carcinogenic and best avoided.

See 

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M4420.htm

Stuart

When it comes out hot from the fuser, you could try using something 
to press the paper into the voids (like edges of the traces.  
Something with a 20-30 mil radius would probably work.   My guess is 
all you need is a quick contact when the toner is molten and it will 
stick enough.

I was having some adhesion problems on etched FR4 material for the 
legend which is why I used the 600 grit on it.  I do a hot peel on 
the legend print, by the way.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:45:29 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> > I've had good luck putting legends over traces by burnishing with 
the
> > edge of the iron. (not sure if thats the correct term).  After
> > ironing on the legend, I tilt the iron and rub with the thin edge.
> > It forces the paper to make better contact.  You could probably 
use
> > anything with a reasonably small radius on a hot board/paper 
assembly
> > but you'd have to work fast before the board temp dropped below 
the
> > fusing point.
> >
> > I also prep the etched board with emery cloth - currently using 
600
> > grit.  This roughens it up and creates more surface area for the
> > toner to cling to.
> >
> > It works quite well, I can get really good adhesion of the legend.
> > I've got a picture around here some where, if I find it I'll post.
> 
> i prepare the copper with 600grit paper for the initial transfer 
for 
> etching,
> i thought i can omit this step for the legend.
> The toner seems to hold very well t th gh epoxy surface where the 
copper 

> was.
> 
> I'd like to not use a iron and a rather tedious step in production,
> i will try a few things with the fuser and let you know...
> 
> ST

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:50:19 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> When it comes out hot from the fuser, you could try using something
> to press the paper into the voids (like edges of the traces.
> Something with a 20-30 mil radius would probably work.   My guess is
> all you need is a quick contact when the toner is molten and it will
> stick enough.
>
> I was having some adhesion problems on etched FR4 material for the
> legend which is why I used the 600 grit on it.  I do a hot peel on
> the legend print, by the way.
>

The fuser runs so slow it doesn't get out molten.

I tried a hot peel but it failed. (ripped off the toner).

strangely the top-side legend adheres perectly (on etched away copper - 
2-sided stock..).

I don't even bother cleaning much or taking care not to touch the printed 
paper with the
fingers, it adheres very well all the same on the epoxy.

I found the toner slightly "absorbs" into the epoxy (clean it off again, 
it doesn't go
away fully...).

ST

> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:29:10 +0200
>    From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: component legend on solder side
> 
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:15:04 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Stefan,
> >
> > My thoughts are in using a cloth or something that can be compressed
> > easily.  the cloth on top of the paper would push more on the paper
> > so it would (hopefully) let the letters touch.
> >
> > Also, there is (expensive) transfer paper you can buy at hobby
> > stores.  You can print on it and then like a decal, transfer it to
> > the board.  This will not work with SMD parts as it also acts like a
> > coating on the board.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> 
> anything that doesn't work for SMD is of no use as i can make near perfect
> legend on the top side of the board - for throughhole components.
> 
> I also think something compressible might work.
> I had the silicone rubber lower pressure roller in mind, but it seems
> there the temperature isn't high enough. I will see if cranking
> the fuser temp. up a bit makes it any better.
> 
> It could also be that the paper is just to stiff to be bent that much
> but i do not think this is the case because in some places the transfer
> continues just besides the trace with only a tiny gap. (i wouldn't mind
> the gap).
> 
> 
> This needs more experimenting, i'm sure it can be done.
> 
> ST
> 
------------------------------------

Stefan,

I haven't read many of the previous messages in this thread (Sorry. New member.) But, if you were doing a lot of these, it might be worth trying to use an "inverse image" board, i.e. having copper only wherever yours doesn't, probably with somewhat smaller copper areas than a true inverse-image board would have, so that the two boards would "fit together" when their copper sides were facing each other.  With enough pressure, the inverse-image board's copper areas should be able to press the paper into the non-copper areas of the board being printed on.

This was just a thought.  I've never tried it.  I don't know how well the "board sandwich" would transfer the heat, or how much pressure you'd need, or how you'd keep the boards aligned, etc.  And if you're not using a computer to generate your artwork it might not be quite as easy to generate the inverse-image board's artwork. But I thought I'd throw the idea out, anyway, just in case it might somehow be helpful.  Good luck.

Regards,

Tom Gootee

http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg

------------------------------------


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