4 Layer
2004-06-19 by Jeremy Taylor
What is needed to make 4 layer boards, a press (hot or not) and some sort of
glue?
JT
glue?
JT
Thread
4 Layer
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by Markus Zingg
>What is needed to make 4 layer boards, a press (hot or not) and some sort ofI sucessfully did this with 5 minute epoxy and a homebrew little
>glue?
>
>JT
simple press consisting of two vices.
The most important part though is that you definately will need a
through plating station or else you will not be able to connect the
inner layers to the outer ones - errr, or then you have a method I'm
sure others would be interested to hear about.
Markus
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by Jeremy Taylor
Thanks for the reply. I have PTH, Tin/lead electro, and cnc. I was hoping it could be done, What particular brand of epoxy did you use, and did you need a layer of insulating material between boards, or did you use single sided outer boards, with an inner double?
Did you put your vise~glue~boards sandwich in the oven, or did it air dry. How does it hold up??
JT
Did you put your vise~glue~boards sandwich in the oven, or did it air dry. How does it hold up??
JT
----- Original Message -----
From: Markus Zingg
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 Layer
>What is needed to make 4 layer boards, a press (hot or not) and some sort of
>glue?
>
>JT
I sucessfully did this with 5 minute epoxy and a homebrew little
simple press consisting of two vices.
The most important part though is that you definately will need a
through plating station or else you will not be able to connect the
inner layers to the outer ones - errr, or then you have a method I'm
sure others would be interested to hear about.
Markus
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by Markus Zingg
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:42:10 -0400, you wrote:
difficult.
it's critical.
etch the inner layer first but don't drill any holes (except for two
diagonal center holes I first drill thrugh the whole stack). Then,
apply the glue to the inner double sided board. I use plastic sticks
from ice creams (I do have 3 kids, hence lot's of sticks available
here) and apply a very thin layer of glue. However, I take special
care to asure that glue is also in those parts where the copper was
etched away. I apply glue to both sides at the same time. I then put
the stack together and put it into the vice press.
ready after 5 minutes! I then drill all holes and pass the stack
through the through hole plating. Exposing, developping and etching of
the outer layers then goes as usual. I use dry laminate but figure you
do it the same way.
with predips and a hot press, they hold very well. In practize (and
that's honestly all that's important to me) they are usable the very
same way as any other board. I.e. no troubles whatsover with drilling,
applying thin, soldering or whatever.
I like to point out though that the complete process of making PCB's
on my own serve the sole purpose of creating prototypes. I never would
sell such a board due to obvious reasons. However, being able to have
a four layer PCB in my hands ~4 hours after decideing to do so is a
very cool thing.
Markus
>Thanks for the reply. I have PTH, Tin/lead electro, and cnc. I was hoping it could be done,It can be done, and to be honest I not even find it especially
difficult.
>What particular brand of epoxy did you use,I tried different 5 min epoxys. All I tried worked well, I don't think
it's critical.
>and did you need a layer of insulating material between boards, or did you use single sided outer boards, with an inner double?The latter. That's by far the easiest way. Simply expose, develop and
etch the inner layer first but don't drill any holes (except for two
diagonal center holes I first drill thrugh the whole stack). Then,
apply the glue to the inner double sided board. I use plastic sticks
from ice creams (I do have 3 kids, hence lot's of sticks available
here) and apply a very thin layer of glue. However, I take special
care to asure that glue is also in those parts where the copper was
etched away. I apply glue to both sides at the same time. I then put
the stack together and put it into the vice press.
>Did you put your vise~glue~boards sandwich in the oven, or did it air dry.Air dry is sufficient. Since I use 5 min epoxy the whole thing is
ready after 5 minutes! I then drill all holes and pass the stack
through the through hole plating. Exposing, developping and etching of
the outer layers then goes as usual. I use dry laminate but figure you
do it the same way.
>How does it hold up??Although it's clear that such a PCB can't hold up the same as one made
with predips and a hot press, they hold very well. In practize (and
that's honestly all that's important to me) they are usable the very
same way as any other board. I.e. no troubles whatsover with drilling,
applying thin, soldering or whatever.
I like to point out though that the complete process of making PCB's
on my own serve the sole purpose of creating prototypes. I never would
sell such a board due to obvious reasons. However, being able to have
a four layer PCB in my hands ~4 hours after decideing to do so is a
very cool thing.
Markus
Re: 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by javaguy11111
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
wrote:
My concern is that the board could delaminate in an oven.
wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:42:10 -0400, you wrote:made
>
> Although it's clear that such a PCB can't hold up the same as one
> with predips and a hot press, they hold very well. In practize (anddrilling,
> that's honestly all that's important to me) they are usable the very
> same way as any other board. I.e. no troubles whatsover with
> applying thin, soldering or whatever.When you solder, do you reflow solder in an oven or only use an iron.
My concern is that the board could delaminate in an oven.
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by Markus Zingg
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:07:29 -0000, you wrote:
iron, hence you're probably right that it could happen in an oven. Try
it out and see what happens! I would apreciate to hear feedback from
you once your there.
Markus
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>Due to the lack of a reflow oven, I solder so far exclusively with an
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:42:10 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> Although it's clear that such a PCB can't hold up the same as one
>made
>> with predips and a hot press, they hold very well. In practize (and
>> that's honestly all that's important to me) they are usable the very
>> same way as any other board. I.e. no troubles whatsover with
>drilling,
>> applying thin, soldering or whatever.
>
>When you solder, do you reflow solder in an oven or only use an iron.
>My concern is that the board could delaminate in an oven.
iron, hence you're probably right that it could happen in an oven. Try
it out and see what happens! I would apreciate to hear feedback from
you once your there.
Markus
Re: 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by javaguy11111
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
wrote:
place to setup a PTH station. It will be a while before I have a place
where I can do something like that.
I do not use a "real" reflow oven, but my cheap little toaster oven
does a pretty good job of pretending to be one.:)
wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:07:29 -0000, you wrote:(and
>
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:42:10 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >> Although it's clear that such a PCB can't hold up the same as one
> >made
> >> with predips and a hot press, they hold very well. In practize
> >> that's honestly all that's important to me) they are usable thevery
> >> same way as any other board. I.e. no troubles whatsover withiron.
> >drilling,
> >> applying thin, soldering or whatever.
> >
> >When you solder, do you reflow solder in an oven or only use an
> >My concern is that the board could delaminate in an oven.an
>
> Due to the lack of a reflow oven, I solder so far exclusively with
> iron, hence you're probably right that it could happen in an oven.Try
> it out and see what happens! I would apreciate to hear feedback fromOne of these days I will do multilayer. Biggest problem is having a
> you once your there.
>
> Markus
place to setup a PTH station. It will be a while before I have a place
where I can do something like that.
I do not use a "real" reflow oven, but my cheap little toaster oven
does a pretty good job of pretending to be one.:)
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by Stefan Trethan
>the ovens i tried took awfully long to heat the board.
> One of these days I will do multilayer. Biggest problem is having a
> place to setup a PTH station. It will be a while before I have a place
> where I can do something like that.
> I do not use a "real" reflow oven, but my cheap little toaster oven
> does a pretty good job of pretending to be one.:)
>
please do a little experiment some day and glue two pieces of pcb together
with epoxy,
press them in a vice and bake them.
I'm very curious if it bubbles up... make sure you let it cure a day or so.
do take care with mixing it real good because thin layers of epoxy like to
cause trouble.
st
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: 4 Layer
2004-06-20 by Markus Zingg
>One of these days I will do multilayer. Biggest problem is having aI do have one of them here to play with, but I heard that the heat
>place to setup a PTH station. It will be a while before I have a place
>where I can do something like that.
>I do not use a "real" reflow oven, but my cheap little toaster oven
>does a pretty good job of pretending to be one.:)
disapears way too fast if you have to open the door to feed it. Since
I intend to solder BGA's with it I figure I will have to modify it
quite a bit. Did not yet found the time to start this project, but the
day will come - I'm sure.
Markus
Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
2004-06-20 by Phil
I'm in the process of looking for a toaster oven to turn into a
reflow oven. I've been looking in second-hand stores and most of
these are pretty junky. I saw a convection toaster oven for like $70
new at (I think) target. Given that these essentially blow hot air,
I thought it might be ideal for conversion and that it might be a
solution to the heat loss problem. I think I'd need to install some
sort of flow defuser to prevent moving of smaller, lighter parts.
Has anyone tried one?
I might want to build a controller for it that would cycle the heat
(pre-heat, heat, cool down) in a controllen fashion.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
wrote:
reflow oven. I've been looking in second-hand stores and most of
these are pretty junky. I saw a convection toaster oven for like $70
new at (I think) target. Given that these essentially blow hot air,
I thought it might be ideal for conversion and that it might be a
solution to the heat loss problem. I think I'd need to install some
sort of flow defuser to prevent moving of smaller, lighter parts.
Has anyone tried one?
I might want to build a controller for it that would cycle the heat
(pre-heat, heat, cool down) in a controllen fashion.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
wrote:
>Since
> I do have one of them here to play with, but I heard that the heat
> disapears way too fast if you have to open the door to feed it.
> I intend to solder BGA's with it I figure I will have to modify itthe
> quite a bit. Did not yet found the time to start this project, but
> day will come - I'm sure.
>
> Markus
Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
2004-06-20 by javaguy11111
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
wrote:
the door and turn the heat up to about 250F. I wait about two minutes
to provide a little of preheat time. I then turn the oven up to max
and in about 2 to 2 1/2 minutes the solder is melted. I then turn off
the oven, open the door and wait about 5 minutes for cooldown.
I have not lost a board or a component yet, but there a few things to
keep in mind. Any tall components, like connectors, will cast a shadow
and slow down the reflow of the shaded components. So I leave things
like large connectors off. My oven has one heating element on top and
one on the bottom. So there is definitely uneven heating. The largest
board I have done so far is 2.5 by 3 inches. Based on how the relfow
went on that one, I think that is about the limit for this oven.
My next board will probably be in the 3x5in size and for that one I
will invest in a convection oven to get more even heating.
I have attempted one BGA component which was an 8 pin 555 timer. The
problem I had was not with the oven, but the lack of a solder mask. So
the solder wicked along the traces and the component did not set
right. When I figure out what solder masking method I want to use, I
will give the BGA's a try again.
> I'm in the process of looking for a toaster oven to turn into a$70
> reflow oven. I've been looking in second-hand stores and most of
> these are pretty junky. I saw a convection toaster oven for like
> new at (I think) target. Given that these essentially blow hotair,
> I thought it might be ideal for conversion and that it might be asome
> solution to the heat loss problem. I think I'd need to install
> sort of flow defuser to prevent moving of smaller, lighter parts.but
> Has anyone tried one?
>
> I might want to build a controller for it that would cycle the heat
> (pre-heat, heat, cool down) in a controllen fashion.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I do have one of them here to play with, but I heard that the heat
> > disapears way too fast if you have to open the door to feed it.
> Since
> > I intend to solder BGA's with it I figure I will have to modify it
> > quite a bit. Did not yet found the time to start this project,
> the--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
> > day will come - I'm sure.
> >
> > Markus
wrote:
> >One of these days I will do multilayer. Biggest problem is having aplace
> >place to setup a PTH station. It will be a while before I have a
> >where I can do something like that.Since
> >I do not use a "real" reflow oven, but my cheap little toaster oven
> >does a pretty good job of pretending to be one.:)
>
> I do have one of them here to play with, but I heard that the heat
> disapears way too fast if you have to open the door to feed it.
> I intend to solder BGA's with it I figure I will have to modify itthe
> quite a bit. Did not yet found the time to start this project, but
> day will come - I'm sure.The process with my oven is to start cold. I put the board in, close
>
> Markus
the door and turn the heat up to about 250F. I wait about two minutes
to provide a little of preheat time. I then turn the oven up to max
and in about 2 to 2 1/2 minutes the solder is melted. I then turn off
the oven, open the door and wait about 5 minutes for cooldown.
I have not lost a board or a component yet, but there a few things to
keep in mind. Any tall components, like connectors, will cast a shadow
and slow down the reflow of the shaded components. So I leave things
like large connectors off. My oven has one heating element on top and
one on the bottom. So there is definitely uneven heating. The largest
board I have done so far is 2.5 by 3 inches. Based on how the relfow
went on that one, I think that is about the limit for this oven.
My next board will probably be in the 3x5in size and for that one I
will invest in a convection oven to get more even heating.
I have attempted one BGA component which was an 8 pin 555 timer. The
problem I had was not with the oven, but the lack of a solder mask. So
the solder wicked along the traces and the component did not set
right. When I figure out what solder masking method I want to use, I
will give the BGA's a try again.
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
2004-06-20 by Jeremy Taylor
I did a bga sot-70ish type 6 pin, After several failed attempts, I left the etch resist on, which acted like a very thin soldermask and it did indeed work, but it was ugly and stinky as the mask was burnt. I've decided to stay away from bga, just so I can visually see the connections.
I use a black and Decker convection with two elements on top and bottom (4 total) I do 6X9 boards with mostly sot-23 and so and sop sized ic. I manually control it by setting it full on (not broil), watching my temp gauge and opening the door slightly to hold a temp. I try to follow the profile listed on Kesters site for the paste I use, and have not had a failure yet. I do not use the ez-bake method of running a line of paste, but prefer to apply a small bead per pad. Takes longer but no shorting or rework required.
JT
I use a black and Decker convection with two elements on top and bottom (4 total) I do 6X9 boards with mostly sot-23 and so and sop sized ic. I manually control it by setting it full on (not broil), watching my temp gauge and opening the door slightly to hold a temp. I try to follow the profile listed on Kesters site for the paste I use, and have not had a failure yet. I do not use the ez-bake method of running a line of paste, but prefer to apply a small bead per pad. Takes longer but no shorting or rework required.
JT
----- Original Message -----
From: javaguy11111
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:01 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> I'm in the process of looking for a toaster oven to turn into a
> reflow oven. I've been looking in second-hand stores and most of
> these are pretty junky. I saw a convection toaster oven for like
$70
> new at (I think) target. Given that these essentially blow hot
air,
> I thought it might be ideal for conversion and that it might be a
> solution to the heat loss problem. I think I'd need to install
some
> sort of flow defuser to prevent moving of smaller, lighter parts.
> Has anyone tried one?
>
> I might want to build a controller for it that would cycle the heat
> (pre-heat, heat, cool down) in a controllen fashion.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I do have one of them here to play with, but I heard that the heat
> > disapears way too fast if you have to open the door to feed it.
> Since
> > I intend to solder BGA's with it I figure I will have to modify it
> > quite a bit. Did not yet found the time to start this project,
but
> the
> > day will come - I'm sure.
> >
> > Markus
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...>
wrote:
> >One of these days I will do multilayer. Biggest problem is having a
> >place to setup a PTH station. It will be a while before I have a
place
> >where I can do something like that.
> >I do not use a "real" reflow oven, but my cheap little toaster oven
> >does a pretty good job of pretending to be one.:)
>
> I do have one of them here to play with, but I heard that the heat
> disapears way too fast if you have to open the door to feed it.
Since
> I intend to solder BGA's with it I figure I will have to modify it
> quite a bit. Did not yet found the time to start this project, but
the
> day will come - I'm sure.
>
> Markus
The process with my oven is to start cold. I put the board in, close
the door and turn the heat up to about 250F. I wait about two minutes
to provide a little of preheat time. I then turn the oven up to max
and in about 2 to 2 1/2 minutes the solder is melted. I then turn off
the oven, open the door and wait about 5 minutes for cooldown.
I have not lost a board or a component yet, but there a few things to
keep in mind. Any tall components, like connectors, will cast a shadow
and slow down the reflow of the shaded components. So I leave things
like large connectors off. My oven has one heating element on top and
one on the bottom. So there is definitely uneven heating. The largest
board I have done so far is 2.5 by 3 inches. Based on how the relfow
went on that one, I think that is about the limit for this oven.
My next board will probably be in the 3x5in size and for that one I
will invest in a convection oven to get more even heating.
I have attempted one BGA component which was an 8 pin 555 timer. The
problem I had was not with the oven, but the lack of a solder mask. So
the solder wicked along the traces and the component did not set
right. When I figure out what solder masking method I want to use, I
will give the BGA's a try again.
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are pitted...
2004-06-21 by ransom peek
First time tried to make pcb, used Sharpie Ultra Fine marker and ferric
chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, with
agitation, market lines were degrading badly. Stopped the etching,
applied more marker, and etched for another 8 minutes (roughly). Still,
the copper areas are pitted, very much degraded - the pen just doesn't
do a good job - the ferric chloride does attack it.
Am I doing something wrong? My plan is to go over all the traces and
pads with solder to ensure continuity for this prototype, but in the
future. Do I need a different method or different marker pen?
Also - I find that isopropyl alcohol does an ok job of removing the
marker - is this a good choice?
Ransom Peek
Fort Collins CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, with
agitation, market lines were degrading badly. Stopped the etching,
applied more marker, and etched for another 8 minutes (roughly). Still,
the copper areas are pitted, very much degraded - the pen just doesn't
do a good job - the ferric chloride does attack it.
Am I doing something wrong? My plan is to go over all the traces and
pads with solder to ensure continuity for this prototype, but in the
future. Do I need a different method or different marker pen?
Also - I find that isopropyl alcohol does an ok job of removing the
marker - is this a good choice?
Ransom Peek
Fort Collins CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are pitted...
2004-06-21 by mickeym
A sharpie is okay for small areas, but hard to get a good fill on larger
things.
I use one to fix bad spots on toner tranfers with fair results.
Did someone say a red one works better?
mickeym
ransom peek wrote:
things.
I use one to fix bad spots on toner tranfers with fair results.
Did someone say a red one works better?
mickeym
ransom peek wrote:
>First time tried to make pcb, used Sharpie Ultra Fine marker and ferric
>chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, with
>agitation, market lines were degrading badly. Stopped the etching,
>applied more marker, and etched for another 8 minutes (roughly). Still,
>the copper areas are pitted, very much degraded - the pen just doesn't
>do a good job - the ferric chloride does attack it.
>
>
>
>Am I doing something wrong? My plan is to go over all the traces and
>pads with solder to ensure continuity for this prototype, but in the
>future. Do I need a different method or different marker pen?
>
>
>
>Also - I find that isopropyl alcohol does an ok job of removing the
>marker - is this a good choice?
>
>
>
>Ransom Peek
>
>Fort Collins CO
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Re: First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are pitted...
2004-06-21 by Phil
I've found that it works better if you dab the sharpie so that the
ink kind of puddles up. Leaves a thicker layer of ink.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ransom peek"
<ransom.peek@c...> wrote:
ink kind of puddles up. Leaves a thicker layer of ink.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ransom peek"
<ransom.peek@c...> wrote:
> First time tried to make pcb, used Sharpie Ultra Fine marker andferric
> chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, withStill,
> agitation, market lines were degrading badly. Stopped the etching,
> applied more marker, and etched for another 8 minutes (roughly).
> the copper areas are pitted, very much degraded - the pen justdoesn't
> do a good job - the ferric chloride does attack it.and
>
>
>
> Am I doing something wrong? My plan is to go over all the traces
> pads with solder to ensure continuity for this prototype, but in the
> future. Do I need a different method or different marker pen?
>
>
>
> Also - I find that isopropyl alcohol does an ok job of removing the
> marker - is this a good choice?
>
>
>
> Ransom Peek
>
> Fort Collins CO
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
2004-06-21 by Phil
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jeremy@e...>
wrote:
...
wrote:
...
> manually control it by setting it full on (not broil),what are you using to measure temp - an oven gauge?
> watching my temp gauge and opening the door slightly
> to hold a temp.
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
2004-06-21 by Jeremy Taylor
temp probe on my meter.
The oven gauge is not accurate at all
JT
The oven gauge is not accurate at all
JT
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Reflow Oven (was Re: 4 Layer)
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jeremy@e...>
wrote:
...
> manually control it by setting it full on (not broil),
> watching my temp gauge and opening the door slightly
> to hold a temp.
what are you using to measure temp - an oven gauge?
Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are pitted...
2004-06-21 by JanRwl@AOL.COM
In a message dated 6/20/2004 7:59:12 PM Central Standard Time,
ransom.peek@... writes:
First time tried to make pcb, used Sharpie Ultra Fine marker and ferric
chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, with agitation, market
lines were degrading badly.
Ransom: I have done tiny bits of PC-board sucessfully with a regular
Sharpie, but ONLY a very new/fresh one! Older ones that still work OK on paper,
etc, won't work well at all as resist, just like you say.
However, I discovered some new Sharpie "INDUSTRIAL" fine point fiber-tip pens
that LOOK the same except for the different color logo on the body of the
pen, and it LOOKS like this may be "tougher" ink, as it claims to be "super
permanent ink". BUT I haven't had a chance to try these, yet. Seems they were
noticebly more expensive (at the "office store") than the "regular" Sharpies. I
just gotta get off my lazy antique duff and go TRY a scrap, and SEE. Once I
do, of course, I will REPORT here!
Jan Rowland
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ransom.peek@... writes:
First time tried to make pcb, used Sharpie Ultra Fine marker and ferric
chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, with agitation, market
lines were degrading badly.
Ransom: I have done tiny bits of PC-board sucessfully with a regular
Sharpie, but ONLY a very new/fresh one! Older ones that still work OK on paper,
etc, won't work well at all as resist, just like you say.
However, I discovered some new Sharpie "INDUSTRIAL" fine point fiber-tip pens
that LOOK the same except for the different color logo on the body of the
pen, and it LOOKS like this may be "tougher" ink, as it claims to be "super
permanent ink". BUT I haven't had a chance to try these, yet. Seems they were
noticebly more expensive (at the "office store") than the "regular" Sharpies. I
just gotta get off my lazy antique duff and go TRY a scrap, and SEE. Once I
do, of course, I will REPORT here!
Jan Rowland
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are pitted...
2004-06-21 by Leon Heller
----- Original Message -----
From: "ransom peek" <ransom.peek@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 1:53 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are
pitted...
> First time tried to make pcb, used Sharpie Ultra Fine marker and ferric
> chloride from Radio Shack. After 10 minutes in solution, with
> agitation, market lines were degrading badly. Stopped the etching,
> applied more marker, and etched for another 8 minutes (roughly). Still,
> the copper areas are pitted, very much degraded - the pen just doesn't
> do a good job - the ferric chloride does attack it.
>
>
>
> Am I doing something wrong? My plan is to go over all the traces and
> pads with solder to ensure continuity for this prototype, but in the
> future. Do I need a different method or different marker pen?
Staedtler waterproof markers work very well.
> Also - I find that isopropyl alcohol does an ok job of removing the
> marker - is this a good choice?
That is what I use to remove resist from my boards. Virtually any solvent
should work, I used to use cellulose paint thinners.
Leon
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] First PCB - used Sharpie, but copper lines are pitted...
2004-06-21 by Stefan Trethan
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:21:04 -0400, mickeym <whitemouse@...>
wrote:
in your pocket.
write the name of every pen, with the pen, on the pcb.
then etch and buy the best one.
at some point you might go to CAD layouts and maybe a different etchant.
st
wrote:
>go to a office store that provides sample pens to try, with a scrap of pcb
> A sharpie is okay for small areas, but hard to get a good fill on larger
> things.
> I use one to fix bad spots on toner tranfers with fair results.
>
> Did someone say a red one works better?
>
> mickeym
>
in your pocket.
write the name of every pen, with the pen, on the pcb.
then etch and buy the best one.
at some point you might go to CAD layouts and maybe a different etchant.
st
Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-21 by ransom peek
Lots of detailed responses to my question about poor etch resist of
sharpie pen - thak you all!
Seems others find the Sharpie unacceptable. One response suggested I go
to an office supply store and try many demo pens on a pcb then etch them
and choose! A great idea, but not for me as I have not extra time at
the moment!
The best idea for me was to use a Staedtler waterproof marker. I do not
know if these are very fine point, but I will try to find one today in
an arts store.
Does anyone have any other pen recommendations? Am I one of the last
pen resist users - everyone else uses photoresist or other methods? I
thought there would be a standard choice all of you experienced board
people would jump in - in unison and tell me to go out and get!
Ransom Peek
Frustrated aspiring pcb maker in Fort Collins CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sharpie pen - thak you all!
Seems others find the Sharpie unacceptable. One response suggested I go
to an office supply store and try many demo pens on a pcb then etch them
and choose! A great idea, but not for me as I have not extra time at
the moment!
The best idea for me was to use a Staedtler waterproof marker. I do not
know if these are very fine point, but I will try to find one today in
an arts store.
Does anyone have any other pen recommendations? Am I one of the last
pen resist users - everyone else uses photoresist or other methods? I
thought there would be a standard choice all of you experienced board
people would jump in - in unison and tell me to go out and get!
Ransom Peek
Frustrated aspiring pcb maker in Fort Collins CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-21 by RandyL
anyone considered a paint marker, like they use at auto wrecking yards?
RandyL
RandyL
----- Original Message -----
From: ransom peek
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 7:43 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
Lots of detailed responses to my question about poor etch resist of
sharpie pen - thak you all!
Seems others find the Sharpie unacceptable. One response suggested I go
to an office supply store and try many demo pens on a pcb then etch them
and choose! A great idea, but not for me as I have not extra time at
the moment!
The best idea for me was to use a Staedtler waterproof marker. I do not
know if these are very fine point, but I will try to find one today in
an arts store.
Does anyone have any other pen recommendations? Am I one of the last
pen resist users - everyone else uses photoresist or other methods? I
thought there would be a standard choice all of you experienced board
people would jump in - in unison and tell me to go out and get!
Ransom Peek
Frustrated aspiring pcb maker in Fort Collins CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-21 by Stefan Trethan
> The best idea for me was to use a Staedtler waterproof marker. I do notI use Steadtler, they seem the best but with a too acidic etchant they
> know if these are very fine point, but I will try to find one today in
> an arts store.
fail all the same.
Buy the red one, they are the best.
You can buy them in many sizes, with very fine tip.
>sharpie _is_ the standard somehow. in europe it is edding 3000.
>
>
> Does anyone have any other pen recommendations? Am I one of the last
> pen resist users - everyone else uses photoresist or other methods? I
> thought there would be a standard choice all of you experienced board
> people would jump in - in unison and tell me to go out and get!
I think they changed the ink formulations the last years (no "bad"
solvents,
toulene, xylene etc.., environmentally friendly....).
Most pens i tried do not work.
I use Toner Transfer and pray to not need any corrections with a pen.
then i closely monitor the HCl molarity of my etchant which enables me to
use
the staedtler.
ST
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-21 by Stefan Trethan
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:55:53 -0700, RandyL <randy-list-address@...>
wrote:
layer.
I tried both acrylic and auto laquer and both worked, even colophony
solved in thinner.
The problem with the pens is the layer thickness, i observe that many
brands work
when new and fail over time.
I have bought the Staedtler refill ink which provides a very fresh wet tip
each time.
ST
wrote:
> anyone considered a paint marker, like they use at auto wrecking yards?Real laquers generally tend to work, especially if you can apply a thick
>
> RandyL
layer.
I tried both acrylic and auto laquer and both worked, even colophony
solved in thinner.
The problem with the pens is the layer thickness, i observe that many
brands work
when new and fail over time.
I have bought the Staedtler refill ink which provides a very fresh wet tip
each time.
ST
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-22 by dave dankert
Why don't you buy the Etch resist ink pens from Digikey?
They have two that have 1/32" and 1/64" lines. Prices are less than $5.00 each.
David Dankert
They have two that have 1/32" and 1/64" lines. Prices are less than $5.00 each.
David Dankert
----- Original Message -----
From: RandyL
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
anyone considered a paint marker, like they use at auto wrecking yards?
RandyL
----- Original Message -----
From: ransom peek
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 7:43 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
Lots of detailed responses to my question about poor etch resist of
sharpie pen - thak you all!
Seems others find the Sharpie unacceptable. One response suggested I go
to an office supply store and try many demo pens on a pcb then etch them
and choose! A great idea, but not for me as I have not extra time at
the moment!
The best idea for me was to use a Staedtler waterproof marker. I do not
know if these are very fine point, but I will try to find one today in
an arts store.
Does anyone have any other pen recommendations? Am I one of the last
pen resist users - everyone else uses photoresist or other methods? I
thought there would be a standard choice all of you experienced board
people would jump in - in unison and tell me to go out and get!
Ransom Peek
Frustrated aspiring pcb maker in Fort Collins CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-22 by Phil
I did buy one of those and am pretty sure its just an un marked
sharpie. it worked about the same as a sharpie. even the mold
marks on the casing were the same...
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dave dankert" <ddave65@c...>
wrote:
sharpie. it worked about the same as a sharpie. even the mold
marks on the casing were the same...
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dave dankert" <ddave65@c...>
wrote:
> Why don't you buy the Etch resist ink pens from Digikey?$5.00 each.
> They have two that have 1/32" and 1/64" lines. Prices are less than
> David Dankertyards?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: RandyL
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
>
>
> anyone considered a paint marker, like they use at auto wrecking
>resist of
> RandyL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ransom peek
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 7:43 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
>
>
> Lots of detailed responses to my question about poor etch
> sharpie pen - thak you all!suggested I go
>
>
>
> Seems others find the Sharpie unacceptable. One response
> to an office supply store and try many demo pens on a pcb thenetch them
> and choose! A great idea, but not for me as I have not extratime at
> the moment!I do not
>
>
>
> The best idea for me was to use a Staedtler waterproof marker.
> know if these are very fine point, but I will try to find onetoday in
> an arts store.the last
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any other pen recommendations? Am I one of
> pen resist users - everyone else uses photoresist or othermethods? I
> thought there would be a standard choice all of you experiencedboard
> people would jump in - in unison and tell me to go out and get!files:
>
>
>
> Ransom Peek
>
> Frustrated aspiring pcb maker in Fort Collins CO
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs------------
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>files:
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-22 by JanRwl@AOL.COM
In a message dated 6/21/2004 9:21:51 PM Central Standard Time,
ddave65@... writes:
Why don't you buy the Etch resist ink pens from Digikey?
I guess I should say that I haven't used those in "years", but if they are
essentially the same as they were back then, they were ALMOST as bad as the
Sharpies!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddave65@... writes:
Why don't you buy the Etch resist ink pens from Digikey?
I guess I should say that I haven't used those in "years", but if they are
essentially the same as they were back then, they were ALMOST as bad as the
Sharpies!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Marker choices for etch resist
2004-06-22 by JanRwl@AOL.COM
In a message dated 6/21/2004 10:00:12 PM Central Standard Time,
phil1960us@... writes:
I did buy one of those and am pretty sure its just an un marked
sharpie. it worked about the same as a sharpie. even the mold
marks on the casing were the same...
Ditto!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
phil1960us@... writes:
I did buy one of those and am pretty sure its just an un marked
sharpie. it worked about the same as a sharpie. even the mold
marks on the casing were the same...
Ditto!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]