Homebrew_PCBs

----- Original Message -----
From: "don2822003" <don282@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:55 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007


> Hi all, I am new to this group and come recomended by the AMATEUR
> REPAIRS group. I am in Australia and have a question. Can anyone help
> me with the instructions for using 8007 reversal film. I have used it
> a lot in the past but either my memory has failed me or the film I
> have left or the developer have gone off. I can find no information
> on the net at all. If it is the developer gone off is there any thing
> else that will do the job. I have a quantity of negative acting
> circuit board I wish to use and do not like the TTS system. Any other
> Ideas would be most welcome as I only have 1 sheet of 8007 left.
> many thanks ,
> Don VK3YV.
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Maxwell
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007


G'day Don

I am about two weeks behind in clearing e-mails but I note that you dont
appear to have had a response as yet.

I'm afraid I dont have good news for you, unless finding a fellow sufferer
is useful. We are both the victim of limited shelf-life of Scotch 8007. In
my case I have a full pacxket, less about two sheets, that I bought back in
about 1992.

Nobody ever told me that it had a limited life and it certainly isn't
mentioned in the literature that came with the box but that is the simple
truth, as I found out after checking with a couple of development labs and
finally Kalex (?) in Melbourne who used to be a major agent for the stuff.
They were trying to find an alternative reversing film but hadn't been able
to find anything that was comparable in price, when last I checked about two
years ago.

I did suspect the developer at first but then I was given a huge supply of
that from a closed Govt lab. It contained a number of very different batch
numbers but none could develop the 8007. That was when I started to ask
questions around the trade.

I too have a considerable quantity of Ristron negative pcb material, that
may or may not still be ok. I have been meaning to make up a negative
design on the computer and do a trial exposure to see what state of health
it is in but haven't gotten around to it. Hopefully it might be ok and if
so, I might be out of my jam as it is relatively easy to reverse drawings on
the pc to produce a negative - or at least it should be. I haven't tried
that either yet.

Meanwhile, 3M has stopped making Scoth 8007 and Scotchcal, the panel
material it was originally intended to be used with.

Cheers

Bill VK1MX & VK7MX


----- Original Message -----
From: "don2822003" <don282@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:55 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007


> Hi all, I am new to this group and come recomended by the AMATEUR
> REPAIRS group. I am in Australia and have a question. Can anyone help
> me with the instructions for using 8007 reversal film. I have used it
> a lot in the past but either my memory has failed me or the film I
> have left or the developer have gone off. I can find no information
> on the net at all. If it is the developer gone off is there any thing
> else that will do the job. I have a quantity of negative acting
> circuit board I wish to use and do not like the TTS system. Any other
> Ideas would be most welcome as I only have 1 sheet of 8007 left.
> many thanks ,
> Don VK3YV.
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:18:46 +1000
From: "Don Bradbury" <don282@...>
Subject: Re: SCOTCH 8007

Hi Bill, many thanks for the reply I think I am to basic with my needs for most people on this board. I don't make enough boards these days to get to the level of the others and I don't like the toner transfer system I find it is to uncertain for what I need it for (10 GHz boards $1.45 sq.inch) but the same situation exists here I have a number of sq ft. of negative board and I don't know if it will still work either.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Don,
>
> I have recently updated my webpage on the toner transfer procedure:
>
> The results seem to be basically PERFECT, EVERY TIME, now. And

>
> I give VERY detailed step-by-instructions for the complete

>
> I've also posted PHOTOS of an example board that I made, showing

>
> The example board includes trace widths from almost 1/2 inch (12.7

>
> I haven't tried making any traces or spacings that are smaller than

>
> I've made at least 20 boards this way, so far, with NO bad boards.
>
> The PCB-making-procedure webpage is at:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> OT: If anyone wants any 1-sided boards made, from **BITMAP-type**

>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Gootee
>
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:18:46 +1000
> From: "Don Bradbury" <don282@d...>
> Subject: Re: SCOTCH 8007
>
> Hi Bill, many thanks for the reply I think I am to basic with

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Does this mean that making a quality SMD PCB is possible?
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee"
<tomg@f...>
> wrote:
> > Don,
> >
> > I have recently updated my webpage on the toner transfer
procedure:
> >
> > The results seem to be basically PERFECT, EVERY TIME, now. And
> it's extremely quick, and easy.
> >
> > I give VERY detailed step-by-instructions for the complete
> procedure, plus the exact paper type and its source (only $0.33 per
> sheet!), etc.
> >
> > I've also posted PHOTOS of an example board that I made, showing
> the paper pattern and the pcboard at various stages during and
after
> the process.
> >
> > The example board includes trace widths from almost 1/2 inch
(12.7
> mm) down to around 2/300ths (0.0067) inch (0.17 mm), with between-
> trace spacings down to about 0.0067 inch, although I think that the
> smallest trace-width that's actually shown in the photos is
4/300ths
> (0.0133) inch (about 0.34 mm).
> >
> > I haven't tried making any traces or spacings that are smaller
than
> 2/300ths of an inch, yet. But the 2/300ths-inch traces and spaces
> that I HAVE tried were absolutely no problem at all. And the
results
> look excellent. (Even the little "o" characters that are part of
the
> %-signs that are etched out of copper in very small 4-point text
come
> out perfect. And their line/space features are even smaller than my
> smallest trace-widths and spacings.)
> >
> > I've made at least 20 boards this way, so far, with NO bad boards.
> >
> > The PCB-making-procedure webpage is at:
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > OT: If anyone wants any 1-sided boards made, from **BITMAP-
type**
> patterns that could be emailed (or mailed), my teenage son is
> thinking of using my method to start a small business, making pcbs,
> probably for about $15 or $20 for a board that's up to about 4x6
> inches, with that price including the drilling of up to a couple
> hundred holes AND applying the silkscreen artwork (your greyscale
or
> bitmap image) to the component side. Turnaround time would probably
> be zero to one day. He's been making boards for ME, and is very
good
> at it. (And I would supervise.) If anyone's interested, or has any
> questions, just email me (Tom) at tomg@f... .
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tom Gootee
> >
> > http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg
> >
> > -----------------------------------
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:18:46 +1000
> > From: "Don Bradbury" <don282@d...>
> > Subject: Re: SCOTCH 8007
> >
> > Hi Bill, many thanks for the reply I think I am to basic with
> my needs for most people on this board. I don't make enough boards
> these days to get to the level of the others and I don't like the
> toner transfer system I find it is to uncertain for what I
need it
> for (10 GHz boards $1.45 sq.inch) but the same situation exists
here
> I have a number of sq ft. of negative board and I don't know if
> it will still work either.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Bradbury" <don282@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007


> Hi Bill, many thanks for the reply I think I am to basic with my needs for
most people on this board. I don't make enough boards these days to get to
the level of the others and I don't like the toner transfer system I find it
is to uncertain for what I need it for (10 GHz boards $1.45 sq.inch) but the
same situation exists here I have a number of sq ft. of negative board and I
don't know if it will still work either. I find that I can't get an opaque
enough negative from the computer either inkjet or laser so I am going back
to film am waiting for a supply coming in from Germany as Kodak and all of
the other manufacturers have stopped making lith film. RCS in Sydney are
supposed to have something that will work but I can't get Bob to answer
emails with details and there is a company in Perth with a version of 8007
but it is a stripping type of film and I doubt the accuracy and at $90 a
packet I'm not willing to risk it.
> Kalex have given up looking , I spoke to Jenny the other day and she had
heard no more .
> Ok sorry to beat you around Bill but I am getting frustrated and living in
the bush (Western Victoria) doesn't help.
> I would like to hear what you have found as alternatives seeing as we are
both in the same boat.
> All the best,
> Don....VK3YV
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Maxwell
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007
>
>
> G'day Don
>
> I am about two weeks behind in clearing e-mails but I note that you dont
> appear to have had a response as yet.
>
> I'm afraid I dont have good news for you, unless finding a fellow
sufferer
> is useful. We are both the victim of limited shelf-life of Scotch 8007.
In
> my case I have a full pacxket, less about two sheets, that I bought back
in
> about 1992.
>
> Nobody ever told me that it had a limited life and it certainly isn't
> mentioned in the literature that came with the box but that is the
simple
> truth, as I found out after checking with a couple of development labs
and
> finally Kalex (?) in Melbourne who used to be a major agent for the
stuff.
> They were trying to find an alternative reversing film but hadn't been
able
> to find anything that was comparable in price, when last I checked about
two
> years ago.
>
> I did suspect the developer at first but then I was given a huge supply
of
> that from a closed Govt lab. It contained a number of very different
batch
> numbers but none could develop the 8007. That was when I started to ask
> questions around the trade.
>
> I too have a considerable quantity of Ristron negative pcb material,
that
> may or may not still be ok. I have been meaning to make up a negative
> design on the computer and do a trial exposure to see what state of
health
> it is in but haven't gotten around to it. Hopefully it might be ok and
if
> so, I might be out of my jam as it is relatively easy to reverse
drawings on
> the pc to produce a negative - or at least it should be. I haven't
tried
> that either yet.
>
> Meanwhile, 3M has stopped making Scoth 8007 and Scotchcal, the panel
> material it was originally intended to be used with.
>
> Cheers
>
> Bill VK1MX & VK7MX
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "don2822003" <don282@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:55 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007
>
>
> > Hi all, I am new to this group and come recomended by the AMATEUR
> > REPAIRS group. I am in Australia and have a question. Can anyone help
> > me with the instructions for using 8007 reversal film. I have used it
> > a lot in the past but either my memory has failed me or the film I
> > have left or the developer have gone off. I can find no information
> > on the net at all. If it is the developer gone off is there any thing
> > else that will do the job. I have a quantity of negative acting
> > circuit board I wish to use and do not like the TTS system. Any other
> > Ideas would be most welcome as I only have 1 sheet of 8007 left.
> > many thanks ,
> > Don VK3YV.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <JanRwl@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] SCOTCH 8007


> In a message dated 6/30/2004 3:57:05 AM Central Standard Time,
> wrmaxwell@... writes:
> limited shelf-life of Scotch 8007.
> Whew! For a minute, I thought you were talking about good Scotch LIQUOR!
> What a travesty that'd be, for some Spirit of the gods, to go-bad with
age!
> (There's a famous/expensive Messkin Tequilla with a number "1800".
Similar
> chemical effect!)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> possible? absolutely! Heck its a lot easier since you don't have
to
> drill so many holes. I keep looking for cheap, decent SMD
connectors
> so I can drill even fewer holes.
>
> I do think it means it is more likely you have to do double sided
> boards and get good at doing "poor man's vias". All things
> considered, its pretty easy though.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>
wrote:
> > Does this mean that making a quality SMD PCB is possible?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee"
> <tomg@f...>
> > wrote:
> > > Don,
> > >
> > > I have recently updated my webpage on the toner transfer
> procedure:
> > >
> > > The results seem to be basically PERFECT, EVERY TIME, now. And
> > it's extremely quick, and easy.
> > >
> > > I give VERY detailed step-by-instructions for the complete
> > procedure, plus the exact paper type and its source (only $0.33
per
> > sheet!), etc.
> > >
> > > I've also posted PHOTOS of an example board that I made,
showing
> > the paper pattern and the pcboard at various stages during and
> after
> > the process.
> > >
> > > The example board includes trace widths from almost 1/2 inch
> (12.7
> > mm) down to around 2/300ths (0.0067) inch (0.17 mm), with between-
> > trace spacings down to about 0.0067 inch, although I think that
the
> > smallest trace-width that's actually shown in the photos is
> 4/300ths
> > (0.0133) inch (about 0.34 mm).
> > >
> > > I haven't tried making any traces or spacings that are smaller
> than
> > 2/300ths of an inch, yet. But the 2/300ths-inch traces and
spaces
> > that I HAVE tried were absolutely no problem at all. And the
> results
> > look excellent. (Even the little "o" characters that are part of
> the
> > %-signs that are etched out of copper in very small 4-point text
> come
> > out perfect. And their line/space features are even smaller than
my
> > smallest trace-widths and spacings.)
> > >
> > > I've made at least 20 boards this way, so far, with NO bad
boards.
> > >
> > > The PCB-making-procedure webpage is at:
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > OT: If anyone wants any 1-sided boards made, from **BITMAP-
> type**
> > patterns that could be emailed (or mailed), my teenage son is
> > thinking of using my method to start a small business, making
pcbs,
> > probably for about $15 or $20 for a board that's up to about 4x6
> > inches, with that price including the drilling of up to a couple
> > hundred holes AND applying the silkscreen artwork (your greyscale
> or
> > bitmap image) to the component side. Turnaround time would
probably
> > be zero to one day. He's been making boards for ME, and is very
> good
> > at it. (And I would supervise.) If anyone's interested, or has
any
> > questions, just email me (Tom) at tomg@f... .
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tom Gootee
> > >
> > > http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:18:46 +1000
> > > From: "Don Bradbury" <don282@d...>
> > > Subject: Re: SCOTCH 8007
> > >
> > > Hi Bill, many thanks for the reply I think I am to basic with
> > my needs for most people on this board. I don't make
enough boards
> > these days to get to the level of the others and I don't like the
> > toner transfer system I find it is to uncertain for what I
> need it
> > for (10 GHz boards $1.45 sq.inch) but the same situation exists
> here
> > I have a number of sq ft. of negative board and I don't know if
> > it will still work either.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Phil, I meant: is SMD PCB possible using that staple paper #471861
> AND Tone Transfer. If you are using something else, can you tell us
> what paper and printer are you using? I am revisiting TT after few
> months. My last attempt wer bad for SMD. I nderstand that a good
> fuser is neccessary for SMD especially. Mike
>

> Does this mean that making a quality SMD PCB is possible?
>
> Mike

> It is getting to the point that if you can draw it, you can etch it.
>
> Dave

> > It is getting to the point that if you can draw it, you can etch it.
> >
> > Dave
>
> It's actually more like "if you can print it you can etch it".
>
> ST

>> > It is getting to the point that if you can draw it, you can etch it.
>> >
>> > Dave
>>
>> It's actually more like "if you can print it you can etch it".
>>
>> ST
>
> How many dpi must the printer be able to handle for 10mil tracks ?
>
> I tried to print out a 600dpi bitmap and even a1200dpi image of my board
> at the public library, and the area with fine tracks didn't look uniform:
> some of the 10mil tracks coming out from a microchip footprint with a
> pitch
>
> of 0.4mm were thinner than others, and also the spacing between those
> tracks was irregular.
>
> Thanks,
> Alex

>>>It is getting to the point that if you can draw it, you can etch it.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>It's actually more like "if you can print it you can etch it".
>>
>>ST
>
> How many dpi must the printer be able to handle for 10mil tracks ?
>
> I tried to print out a 600dpi bitmap and even a1200dpi image of my board
> at the public library, and the area with fine tracks didn't look uniform:
> some of the 10mil tracks coming out from a microchip footprint with a pitch
>
> of 0.4mm were thinner than others, and also the spacing between those
> tracks was irregular.

> A cheap old epson stylus 400 colour will do 8mil tracks/spacing smoothly
> in
> 600x720dpi mode. It's the printer technology and ink/transparency
> combination
> that makes the most difference.
>
>

>
> > A cheap old epson stylus 400 colour will do 8mil tracks/spacing

> > in
> > 600x720dpi mode. It's the printer technology and ink/transparency
> > combination
> > that makes the most difference.
> >
> >
>
> You don't understand the problem.
> Even a 300dpi unit can do traces of 7 mil but _not_ metric spaced

> parts.
> the printer works in inches and if you print metric spacing you get

> variations in
> line width and space.
>
> ST

> Great answers, thanks Stefan and Dave... So T-tech is great for...
> drilling, if one can print it, one can etch it. But what about
> the 'blackness'? How light-tight is hte ink? I don't think that idea
> of printing twice on hte same sheet is good.
>
> Mike
>
>

>
> > A cheap old epson stylus 400 colour will do 8mil tracks/spacing

> > in
> > 600x720dpi mode. It's the printer technology and ink/transparency
> > combination
> > that makes the most difference.
> >
> >
>
> You don't understand the problem.
> Even a 300dpi unit can do traces of 7 mil but _not_ metric spaced

> parts.
> the printer works in inches and if you print metric spacing you get

> variations in
> line width and space.
>
> ST

> I'm not so sure that a 7 mil trace is going to come out that well on
> a 300 dpi device. that is basically 2 dots wide (2.1 to be exact but
> it doesn't do partial dots). that isn't very much toner. 10 mils is 3
> dots and that's still kind of light.
>

> On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:24:52 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>
> > I'm not so sure that a 7 mil trace is going to come out that well

> > a 300 dpi device. that is basically 2 dots wide (2.1 to be exact

> > it doesn't do partial dots). that isn't very much toner. 10 mils

> > dots and that's still kind of light.
> >
>
> yes, correct, IF you draw the lines on a grid in mil.
> if yo have metric grid (e.g. metric spaced flatpack)
> the driver must convert it, and will make alternating two or three

> traces,
> same with space between traces.
> Things get ugly and irregular.
>
> both 2 dot and 3 dot traces come out well, it doesn't do one dot

> think it does one-dot with very small fonts, which still come out

>
>
> st

> My point is that the driver has to convert it to the dot grid -
> there are always conversions taking place. You will almost never
> have an exact number of dots or exact dot alignment even if you start
> with the English system. Its all arbitrary and the dot grid causes
> fractional dots to be truncate or rounded up. You will always have
> fractional dots to deal with - metric or English. I doubt seriously
> that there is less precision (or more loss) when starting with metric.

>
> There's a lot wrong with the English system but this isn't one of
> them.
>

> I'll stick to my 567 DPCM printer (er, 1440 DPI) with its tiny
> fractional dot inaccuracies. I much prefer my 10 mil traces being 14
> dots wide with a max of 0.07% error - probably better than the
> accuracy of TT.
>

> On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:50:49 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > Great answers, thanks Stefan and Dave... So T-tech is great for...
> > drilling, if one can print it, one can etch it. But what about
> > the 'blackness'? How light-tight is hte ink? I don't think that

> > of printing twice on hte same sheet is good.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
> there is some severe topic drift obviously.
> We are no longer talking about TT as the subject says?
> please change the subject line.
>
> ST

> Hello. I've been watching this group for a couple months over some

>
> Regards,
> John Baker
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: John Baker
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:00 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet Question


Hello. I've been watching this group for a couple months over some interesting topics. This is my first post. I'm fairly new to making my own PCBs. What I want to know is: it possible to transfer traces from my computer to a PCB via an Inkjet printer. I am aware of how to do the laser toner with clay-based paper. I would like to know if there is a way to use an inkjet? If so, how do I do this, or does anyone have links/articles/resources to help my studies?

Regards,
John Baker



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----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremy Taylor
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet Question


Take your injet printout to your nearet copy shop


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>A cheap old epson stylus 400 colour will do 8mil tracks/spacing smoothly
>>in 600x720dpi mode. It's the printer technology and ink/transparency
>>combination that makes the most difference.
>
> You don't understand the problem.
> Even a 300dpi unit can do traces of 7 mil but _not_ metric spaced smd
> parts the printer works in inches and if you print metric spacing you get a
> variations in line width and space.

> OK, Stefan, I got the message, sorry for overlooking teh rules.. This
> time, for a change, WILL BE about Mr Gootee and his suggestion. I
> just made a trial and I used a laminator. That paper is no different
> than most of papers suggested and tried by me. By the way, just a
> remark, it is an inkjet paper with heavy 'photographic' coating. One
> sheet is 30 cents. I noticed that paper wonders on its way out of the
> Laser printer. In fact on two trials, the first time when using a
> half a sheet, the image came out straight. The second time, even if
> the whole sheet was fed into the printer, the image was offset by 15
> degrees, although still correct (I hate to think about registration,
> if needed). I was using a laminator and a 0.032 PCB. It was hot, even
> and thin enough. Paper is very thick and it soaked for 15 minutes. I
> got maybe 60% of transferred image. Some lements transferred better
> then others.
>
> I have to admit that my image was very challenging and I was
> particularly impressed that certain three lines in a crowded area,
> transferred really well (100%). That gives me hope that possibly I
> didn't clean well enough (I really didn't). More trials to come.
> Amazingly all SMD pads transferred really well, I just lost 40% of
> traces. Mike
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: John Baker
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:00 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet Question


Hello. I've been watching this group for a couple months over some interesting topics. This is my first post. I'm fairly new to making my own PCBs. What I want to know is: it possible to transfer traces from my computer to a PCB via an Inkjet printer. I am aware of how to do the laser toner with clay-based paper. I would like to know if there is a way to use an inkjet? If so, how do I do this, or does anyone have links/articles/resources to help my studies?

Regards,
John Baker



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----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremy Taylor
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet Question


Take your injet printout to your nearet copy shop


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----- Original Message -----
From: mdgolfbum
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 11:32 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question


Jeremy

I couldn't find that pic. Can you point me to it?

tnx
jtm

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jeremy@e...>
wrote:
Any images posetd by me, (as in the photo of the traces between an
so-70 nanostar package,portions of this message have been removed]



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----- Original Message -----
From: "pebo festus" <mebo31@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:07 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question


> you CAN print directly to pcb (strip down a printer to take straight
> through feed) but you are going to have to find an ink that is water
> proof and will not clog up your print heads (this is the big catch).
> I have printed directly to pcbs but it was with the standard ink in
> the cartradge--but it is not resist proof. it prints out a great
> picture but resist and water washes it off.
> if you can find some ink that works you will have found the holy
> grail.

Such ink is available, but it requires special printheads (very expensive)
and has to be cured with UV as it is printed on the copper.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "pebo festus" <mebo31@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:07 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question


> you CAN print directly to pcb (strip down a printer to take straight
> through feed) but you are going to have to find an ink that is water
> proof and will not clog up your print heads (this is the big catch).
> I have printed directly to pcbs but it was with the standard ink in
> the cartradge--but it is not resist proof. it prints out a great
> picture but resist and water washes it off.
> if you can find some ink that works you will have found the holy
> grail.

Such ink is available, but it requires special printheads (very expensive)
and has to be cured with UV as it is printed on the copper.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> How expensive is VERY expensive? And I have very low wavelength leds
> that are UV. Could I just position them over where the board comes out,
> or what do you mean by "cured"?
> Thanks, John

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Baker" <johnbaker_erie_pa@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question


> How expensive is VERY expensive? And I have very low wavelength leds that
are UV. Could I just position them over where the board comes out, or what
do you mean by "cured"?


I think it was about 2,000 GBP for a dev kit including one head. High
intensity UV is required to cure the ink immediately after it has been
deposited, and they won't supply the ink unless an NDA is signed. I think I
posted a msg about this several months ago.

Leon

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Baker" <johnbaker_erie_pa@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question
>
>
> > How expensive is VERY expensive? And I have very
> low wavelength leds that
> are UV. Could I just position them over where the
> board comes out, or what
> do you mean by "cured"?
>
>
> I think it was about 2,000 GBP for a dev kit
> including one head. High
> intensity UV is required to cure the ink immediately
> after it has been
> deposited, and they won't supply the ink unless an
> NDA is signed. I think I
> posted a msg about this several months ago.
>
> Leon
>

>
> To note however, I dont use toner transfer. Any images posetd by me, (as in the photo of the traces between an so-70 nanostar package, was done with photoresist imaged in a vacuume uv box. with a transparency printed at 1200 dpi, with selective calculated undercutting during etch that gave me sub 5 mil traces.
>
> JT

----- Original Message -----
From: Adam Seychell
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet Question - resolution


Jeremy Taylor wrote:
>
> To note however, I dont use toner transfer. Any images posetd by me, (as in the photo of the traces between an so-70 nanostar package, was done with photoresist imaged in a vacuume uv box. with a transparency printed at 1200 dpi, with selective calculated undercutting during etch that gave me sub 5 mil traces.
>
> JT


Jeremy,
Can you describe your inkjet setup, what printer brand/model ?,
is it OEM ink or refill, and what transparency brand ? All these
factors effect quality of photomasks made from inkjet printer. I
have tested a few transparency and inkjet combinations and found
huge variations in quality. In general, the manufactures
recommendations are the best solutions. There are other
combinations of products that will save you money but require
lots of testing.

As for printers that claim "1200 dpi", I am wary that this is a
useful specification. All the printers I've tested show the ink
droplets to spread or land in random location with error of 1 or
2 mils. For printing color photos it doesn't matter.

Here is a picture from my Epson stylus 660/Epson
transparency/Epson ink, I haven't seen any inkjet prints with
line edge jaggedness much better than in this image. My cheap
Cannon S330 inkjet is only slightly worse, but still very usable.

Notice the vertical edges are jagged, while the horizontal is
smooth because the head direction is in this axis.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/pictures/Epson_inkjet_film.jpg

Here is the same image in the photoresists on the copper.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/pictures/resist_image_on_copper.jpg

Adam


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I think it was about 2,000 GBP for a dev kit including one head. High
>intensity UV is required to cure the ink immediately after it has been
>deposited, and they won't supply the ink unless an NDA is signed. I think I
>posted a msg about this several months ago.
>
>Leon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristian" <bip@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question


> Leon, give me, please, the link.

Can't remember it, sorry. I can't even remember the names of the companies
involved, although I did speak to them. One made the ink and the other made
the piezo printheads. An Italian co. was making a PCB prototyping system
using the technique, it was *very* expensive.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Cristian <bip@f...> wrote:
> Leon, give me, please, the link.
> Cristian
>
>
> >I think it was about 2,000 GBP for a dev kit including one head. High
> >intensity UV is required to cure the ink immediately after it has been
> >deposited, and they won't supply the ink unless an NDA is signed. I
think I
> >posted a msg about this several months ago.
> >
> >Leon

>
> Tried the copper-side component legend again today, with 4 passes
> through the fuser (alternating the sides).
> Worked very well this time.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:34 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet Question


>
> Tried the copper-side component legend again today, with 4 passes
> through the fuser (alternating the sides).
> Worked very well this time.
>
> here is a picture:
> <http://st.such.info/pub/comp_bot.jpg>
>
> You see alignment is a big problem.
> What i found is the paper i use shrinks a _lot_ during fusing.
> the printed paper is always too big to align properly.
>
> I think next time i will add a "index line" on all layers, against which
> the pcb
> edge is aligned. then i feed this edge first on all transfers and it
should
> shrink the same.
>
>
> You also see that 2mm traces are still working very well, i fused 3 times
> compared to the normal single run to make sure all pinholes are closed.
> (the printout was translucent on the broad traces).
>
> well, i think my PCBs are up to space-shuttle standards now, aren't they?
> ;-)
>
>
> I was SO reluctant to start with component legend, but it was way less
> work than i
> feared. Once you have your librarys perpared it doesn't take any longer.
> Preparing the additional layers for print is a matter of minutes, only
> moving
> some text etc..
> You easily save that time when populating, when you don't have to look at
> the
> printout.
> Most time consuming right now is the polishing process to get the paper
> residue
> off the toner. Still looking for a better way (but found no paper that
> leaves
> no residue and works well).
>
> well, good luck..
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Tried the copper-side component legend again today, with 4 passes
> through the fuser (alternating the sides).
> Worked very well this time.
> here is a picture:
> <http://st.such.info/pub/comp_bot.jpg>

> Hi Stefan, I am pretty new to this group , the legend looks fine but
> what
> do you do to the copper it looks like it has been attacked with
> sandpaper,
> is this what is needed to get the toner to stick?. I always prepare my
> board
> with steel wool and then scotchbrite and I never get marks like that. I
> am
> afraid if that is what is needed I will stick to PRP. 15 thou. Teflon
> board
> is to expensive here to do that to(AU 1.50 a sq.inch)
> Regards Don.....VK3YV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] component legend toner transfer


>
> The marks look very dramatic on the scan, this is the light from the
> scanner, in real
> life you can hardly see any scratches.
> I use 600grit paper, it really isn't as bad.
> I have steel wool but i like the paper more...

I normally just use IPA to remove the resist. If I need to really clean the
copper, I use a metal polishing block. It's like an eraser with fine grit
embedded in it.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

> I normally just use IPA to remove the resist. If I need to really clean
> the
> copper, I use a metal polishing block. It's like an eraser with fine grit
> embedded in it.
>
> Leon

> Most time consuming right now is the polishing process to get the
> paper residue
> off the toner. Still looking for a better way (but found no paper that
>
> leaves
> no residue and works well).

>
> Tried the copper-side component legend again today, with 4 passes
> through the fuser (alternating the sides).
> Worked very well this time.
>
> here is a picture:
> <http://st.such.info/pub/comp_bot.jpg>
>
>

> Stefan, I found a trick for the component print:
> Since the paper residue is barely visible when it is wet, I tried to
> spray the component side with "Kontakt Chemie Plastik 70" spray from CRC
> Industries.

> Finest structures: 12mil trace/12mil space
> Printer: HP LJ IIP/IIIP (basemodel was a IIP, but got some 'implants'
> from a IIIP)
> Toner: EPL (i think)
> Paper: Reichelt Elektronik Catalog paper
> Transferred with a standard clothes iron, second highest temp./moderate
> pressure
>

> Wow, looks good.

>
> But... you using thru hole ? I thought you liked SMT to almost the
> exclusion of thru hole ?
>

> The toner lines look great over the traces. You seem to have solved
> the gap problem of the copper height and the board height and the
> toner not getting into the edge where the copper and board meet.
>

> For alignment marks, if you put in two holes on the board somewhere,
> you can put an x on the print to line that up with the paper and
> board.

> it must be aligned at the edge of the PCB, as the toner shrinks the
> paper.
> If i have holes in the center previously aligned they will be pulled off
> as soon
> as the LE is fed. I think a toner line at the pcb edge will do the trick.
>
>
> ST

>From: DJ Delorie <dj@...>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2008 3:41 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Muriatic Acid and Peroxide Brew
>
>
>"TonyB" <tbarros@...> writes:
>> Hi.
>
>Hi.
>
>> With the FeCl and "sponge technique", what do U use for resist?
>
>Please use whole words, not leet-speak.
>
>I haven't tried using the sponge technique with photoresist yet, but I
>have used it with toner transfer. Do do this, you need to use a
>coating film to protect the toner from the abrasion. I use Pulsar's
>green film for this. Photoresist should be usable as-is if it's
>adhered to the board sufficiently that the sponge won't abrade it off.
>
>> Are U the pre-sensitized pcb??
>
>No, I'm not the pre-sensitized pcb.
>
>So far, all I've used is toner transfer, or dry film photoresist which
>I apply myself. I use Adam's wet lamination technique.
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>