Homebrew_PCBs

I've just tried one of those lead-free solder samples I mentioned the
other day on my latest home-made PCB and was quite impressed. The
joints were made just as easily as with the standard Sn/Pb solder I
usually use, and look nicer.

The solder I used was made by MBO (UK) Ltd.:

http://www.mbouk.co.uk/solderwire.htm

It's 0.7 mm diam. and the composition is Sn 95.5, Ag 3.8 and Cu 0.7.

The MP is higher than Sn/Pb at 217C, but the Metcal STTC-138 tip I
was using (370C) coped OK.

Leon

Hi,

any ideas which hose can be used for a "solder sucker" tool?
it will be exposed to high temperature, and vacuum.



ST

On Saturday 29 May 2004 02:48 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> Hi,
>
> any ideas which hose can be used for a "solder sucker" tool?
> it will be exposed to high temperature, and vacuum.

I have a home-built solder sucker unit, and initially started with using
small-diameter steel tubing (brake line bought at an auto parts store), and
the same rubber hose that you see all over engines, used as vacuum line. This
turned out to be rather unsatisfactory in terms of performance -- I couldn't
get a high enough flow rate through it -- so I changed the fittings and now
use 1/2" copper tubing and some 5/8" or so clear tubing I picked up at Lowe's
(home center).

Vacuum is not a problem as it will not be strong enough (with the pump I'm
using anyway) to collapse the tubing.

Temperature will not be an issue either -- the solder that this thing picks up
is *solid* by the time it gets into the tubing.

Hardest for me to find was a bit of teflon tubing for the active end of
things. I finally went to an electronics distributor and bought a tip made
for a commercial solder sucker, they make them without the usual plastic
shroud around them, and it works in my setup.

> I have a home-built solder sucker unit, and initially started with using
> small-diameter steel tubing (brake line bought at an auto parts store),
> and
> the same rubber hose that you see all over engines, used as vacuum line.
> This
> turned out to be rather unsatisfactory in terms of performance -- I
> couldn't
> get a high enough flow rate through it -- so I changed the fittings and
> now
> use 1/2" copper tubing and some 5/8" or so clear tubing I picked up at
> Lowe's
> (home center).

This must be a misunderstanding.

I'm talking about a "active" solder sucker.

The type that has a metal hollow tip, attached to a metal pipe which is
heated.
the back end of this metal pipe has to carry the hose.

ST

On Saturday 29 May 2004 04:42 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> > I have a home-built solder sucker unit, and initially started with using
> > small-diameter steel tubing (brake line bought at an auto parts store),
> > and the same rubber hose that you see all over engines, used as vacuum
> > line. This turned out to be rather unsatisfactory in terms of performance
> > -- I couldn't get a high enough flow rate through it -- so I changed the
> > fittings and now use 1/2" copper tubing and some 5/8" or so clear tubing I
> > picked up at Lowe's (home center).

> This must be a misunderstanding.
>
> I'm talking about a "active" solder sucker.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

> The type that has a metal hollow tip, attached to a metal pipe which is
> heated. the back end of this metal pipe has to carry the hose.

You want to flow solder around some plumbing, and maintain the stuff liquid
the whole time? Why?

>> I'm talking about a "active" solder sucker.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I mean a heated solder sucker, with heated tip.

>
>> The type that has a metal hollow tip, attached to a metal pipe which is
>> heated. the back end of this metal pipe has to carry the hose.
>
> You want to flow solder around some plumbing, and maintain the stuff
> liquid
> the whole time? Why?
>

Because it is great for desoldering.

Have you never seen such a unit? That is not my invention, such things
are available commercially.

I do not flow it around plumbing, at the end of the hot tube there will be
some filter
stopping it.

ST

> You want to flow solder around some plumbing, and maintain the stuff
> liquid
> the whole time? Why?
>
>

You do let it sound like I'm crazy, well, i admit it, i am.

<http://www.computronics.com.au/sc7000/>
<http://www.kiesub.com/hakko808.htm>
<http://www.wassco.com/destool1.html>


only the first few hits on desoldering tool.

I have compressed air and vacuum installed so i need no included pump.

The tips will be copper pop rivets (the "nail" removed).
I will also try aluminum rivets.

the rivets are hold by the threaded pipe and cap nut from a wheel valve
assembly.
inside the threaded pipe is another pipe (copper), soldered.
this pipe is longer and heated.

I will try RTV silicone and see if it is damaged by solder temperatuer.

ST

On Saturday 29 May 2004 05:05 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> >> I'm talking about a "active" solder sucker.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean by that.

> I mean a heated solder sucker, with heated tip.

The only thing I've seen that would come close to this is a soldering iron
which has a hollow tip, and the vacuum plumbing, and those tips are
expensive.

> >> The type that has a metal hollow tip, attached to a metal pipe which is
> >> heated. the back end of this metal pipe has to carry the hose.

> > You want to flow solder around some plumbing, and maintain the stuff
> > liquid the whole time? Why?

> Because it is great for desoldering.
>
> Have you never seen such a unit? That is not my invention, such things
> are available commercially.

Nope, never saw anything like it. (See above.)

> I do not flow it around plumbing, at the end of the hot tube there will be
> some filter stopping it.

I too have a filter in line with my setup -- the pumps are "diaphragm" type
and I sure wouldn't want anything to get in there. It's an old glass-bowl
fuel filter. <g>

That setup, in conjunction with a standard soldering iron, works well for me
for the most part.

On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:41:28 -0400, Roy J. Tellason
<rtellason@...> wrote:

> On Saturday 29 May 2004 05:13 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>
>> I will try RTV silicone and see if it is damaged by solder temperatuer.
>
> Auto parts stores seem to carry this in varying formulations, some of
> which
> can apparently take quite high temperatures.

yes, there is high temperature silicone rubber too.
I'll look.

ST

On Saturday 29 May 2004 05:13 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> I will try RTV silicone and see if it is damaged by solder temperatuer.

Auto parts stores seem to carry this in varying formulations, some of which
can apparently take quite high temperatures.

You could buy one of those desoldering irons with the rubber bulb,
ditch the bulb and connect your hose there. The solder should be
cooled sufficiently by the time it reaches the hose.

Regards,
JJ

On Saturday, May 29, 2004, at 04:42 PM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

>
>> I have a home-built solder sucker unit, and initially started with
>> using
>> small-diameter steel tubing (brake line bought at an auto parts
>> store),
>> and
>> the same rubber hose that you see all over engines, used as vacuum
>> line.
>> This
>> turned out to be rather unsatisfactory in terms of performance -- I
>> couldn't
>> get a high enough flow rate through it -- so I changed the fittings
>> and
>> now
>> use 1/2" copper tubing and some 5/8" or so clear tubing I picked up at
>> Lowe's
>> (home center).
>
> This must be a misunderstanding.
>
> I'm talking about a "active" solder sucker.
>
> The type that has a metal hollow tip, attached to a metal pipe which is
> heated.
> the back end of this metal pipe has to carry the hose.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

The hand piece assembly needs to absorbe the majority
of the heat or at least this is how Pace makes thier
units.

Here is a quick diagram:

hot tip aluminum sheet cotton fiber hose
| | | |

--------------------------------
:::::: \/\/\/\/\/\/\_ ||||| ++++++++++++++
--------------------------------

|
hollow tube made of rubber

The hollow rubber tube slips inside of a hand piece
that the tip/heating element is permenately connect
to. The rubber hose slips in from the back and is
pushed upto the hot tip. There is a high temp seal
that creates an air tight bond between the hose and
the hand piece / hot tip. Inside of the rubber tube, a
there is a piece of aluminum sheet that has been bent
into the shape of an "S". It is placed directly behind
the hot tip. Behind the aluminum sheet that is in the
shape of an "S", is a cotton fiber plug. There is an
inline filter in the hose about 3 feet from the hand
piece.

The aluminum sheet in the shape of an "S" is
removeable so that it can be cleaned. It catches the
hot, liquid solder and cools it. The majority of the
solder hardens on to it. Whatever solder does not
stick to it forms balls and fall to the back of the
tub up against the cotton fiber plug.

You clean the unit with WD-40 (Everything except the
hot tip.). This removes all rosin from the rubber tube
and the various pieces inside of it. You have to
change out the cotton fiber plug and the filter paper
and clean the unit (In the inline filter) after about
every 8 hours of use.

I can take pictures of the unit assembled and
dissassembled if you would like what it looks like.

Regards

Marvin Dickens

=====
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> <http://www.computronics.com.au/sc7000/>
> <http://www.kiesub.com/hakko808.htm>
> <http://www.wassco.com/destool1.html>

Pistol style units *ALWAYS* clog up and further, do
not have the life exepectancy of pencil style units.
Avoid them if possible.

Regards

Marvin Dickens

=====
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If you use linux, get counted at:
http://www.linuxcounter.org




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Roy,
The ones we had made by Pace used a thin wall stainless steel tip.
The tip got hot. These days I use a heat gun (PaintStripper B&D) to
remove parts from proto boards so I can reuse them. To replace a part
I cut the pins of the part next to the body of the device. I then heat
and remove one pin at a time. I sometimes use a solder sucker to open
the holes after that or a toothpick with flux on it.

John

On Saturday 29 May 2004 08:53 pm, crankorgan wrote:

> Roy,
> The ones we had made by Pace used a thin wall stainless steel tip.
> The tip got hot. These days I use a heat gun (PaintStripper B&D) to
> remove parts from proto boards so I can reuse them.

I've seen those heat guns, never thought about using one to get parts off a
board, and didn't know that they reached solder-melting temperature. It
shouldn't be a surprise, though, since they'll make paint bubble up pretty
good...

> To replace a part I cut the pins of the part next to the body of the device.
> I then heat and remove one pin at a time.

I've seen that advice in repair-oriented material before. I guess it depends
on what you want to unsolder for. Much of mine has been to salvage parts,
but I guess I have enough parts these days that it'll take a *LONG* time
before I'll ever use 'em all up.

> I sometimes use a solder sucker to open the holes after that or a toothpick
> with flux on it.

I've done that, used the one-shot desoldering tools, and also braid,
depending on what I'm working on. Different styles of boards tend to have
different results, and sometimes one will work better than another.

> I've seen those heat guns, never thought about using one to get

parts off a

> board, and didn't know that they reached solder-melting

temperature. It

> shouldn't be a surprise, though, since they'll make paint bubble

up pretty

> good...

Roy,
The machine for changing surface mount chips has a heat gun on
both sides of the board. The nozzels move together. There is a
temperature control. The company that makes them is called HART. You
put a dab of stuff on the chip. When the stuff turns clear the chip
will lift off. With the heat gun you preheat the bottom of the board
and then go in for the kill from the top. I mount the board in a bench
vise so it does not fall. Years ago people used a propane torch. I
used to worry about hurting parts with heat until I saw a wave
soldering machine and surface mounted parts being soldered in a
toaster oven. Some heat guns also come with deflector tips to localize
the air. The heat gun also works great with shrink tubing and bending
plastic.

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roy J. Tellason"
<rtellason@b...> wrote:

> On Saturday 29 May 2004 08:53 pm, crankorgan wrote:
> > Roy,
> > The ones we had made by Pace used a thin wall stainless steel

tip.

> > The tip got hot. These days I use a heat gun (PaintStripper B&D)

to

> > remove parts from proto boards so I can reuse them.
>
> I've seen those heat guns, never thought about using one to get

parts off a

> board, and didn't know that they reached solder-melting

temperature. It

> shouldn't be a surprise, though, since they'll make paint bubble

up pretty

> good...
>
> > To replace a part I cut the pins of the part next to the body of

the device.

> > I then heat and remove one pin at a time.
>
> I've seen that advice in repair-oriented material before. I guess

it depends

> on what you want to unsolder for. Much of mine has been to salvage

parts,

> but I guess I have enough parts these days that it'll take a *LONG*

time

> before I'll ever use 'em all up.
>
> > I sometimes use a solder sucker to open the holes after that or a

toothpick

> > with flux on it.
>
> I've done that, used the one-shot desoldering tools, and also

braid,

> depending on what I'm working on. Different styles of boards tend

to have

> different results, and sometimes one will work better than another.

I salvage parts in wholesale fashion from boards with a propane torch.
large cardboard work area, aluminum foil covered brick.

heat the board on the bottom and whack it on the brick BOTTOM SIDE
DOWN. the lead flys out onto the brick and the loose chips bounce
out the top. with light touch you can clear solder and save the
chip. I'm sure a heat gun would do that without damage to the board.
SMT chips do not come off as clean as the thru hole allows the board
to seperate the lead from the chip and the surface mount stuff does
not.

I think I'll get a heat gun this summer and try some of the boards
I've been collecting.

Old netowrk cards and old modems have useful parts.

Dave

If your gonna use a heat gun to do repair, you have to
figure out a way to pre-heat the board prior to
applying heat to remove the chip. At that point, you
heat both sides simultaneously (Bottom of the board
gets lower heat than the top of the board). This is
how all of the hot air machines from Hart, Pace and
others work.

If you don't do it like this, layers in multilayer
boards can and will seperate. If that happens,
salvaging the board is next to impossible.

Best

Marvin

=====
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On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:51:47 -0400, John Johnson <johnatl@...> wrote:

> You could buy one of those desoldering irons with the rubber bulb,
> ditch the bulb and connect your hose there. The solder should be
> cooled sufficiently by the time it reaches the hose.
>
> Regards,
> JJ

they are too expenisve here.

thanks

ST

On Sat, 29 May 2004 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT), mpdickens <md30022@...>
wrote:

> The hand piece assembly needs to absorbe the majority
> of the heat or at least this is how Pace makes thier
> units.
>
> Here is a quick diagram:
>
> hot tip aluminum sheet cotton fiber hose
> | | | |
>
> --------------------------------
> :::::: \/\/\/\/\/\/\_ ||||| ++++++++++++++
> --------------------------------
>
> |
> hollow tube made of rubber

Thanks, that gave me some ideas.

ST

> Roy,
> The machine for changing surface mount chips has a heat gun on
> both sides of the board. The nozzels move together. There is a
> temperature control. The company that makes them is called HART. You
> put a dab of stuff on the chip. When the stuff turns clear the chip
> will lift off. With the heat gun you preheat the bottom of the board
> and then go in for the kill from the top. I mount the board in a bench
> vise so it does not fall. Years ago people used a propane torch. I
> used to worry about hurting parts with heat until I saw a wave
> soldering machine and surface mounted parts being soldered in a
> toaster oven. Some heat guns also come with deflector tips to localize
> the air. The heat gun also works great with shrink tubing and bending
> plastic.
>
> John
>

Yes great tool. you MUST have one with temperature control loop.
If you block the outlet or inlet it must not get any hotter.

This allows for using reduction nozzles and precise temperature.

A goog unit is the steinel with lcd display.

ST

Hi Stefan,

> any ideas which hose can be used for a "solder sucker" tool?
> it will be exposed to high temperature, and vacuum.

Silicon tubing.

--
Cheers,

Derryck

Just to be sure we're on the same page, this
is what I was referring to:

http://tinyurl.com/36x37

Regards,
JJ

On Sunday, May 30, 2004, at 04:37 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:51:47 -0400, John Johnson <johnatl@...>
> wrote:
>
>> You could buy one of those desoldering irons with the rubber bulb,
>> ditch the bulb and connect your hose there. The solder should be
>> cooled sufficiently by the time it reaches the hose.
>>
>> Regards,
>> JJ
>
> they are too expenisve here.
>
> thanks
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

I've had good luck cutting the board out around chips with
a Dremel and cutting disc. You can also cut the board between
the legs. For multi-layer boards with huge power planes,
this makes it a lot easier to heat the chip legs to remove them.
I use a shop torch, or a small kitchen torch.

To bad we can't salvage that thru-hole plating and use it in
our boards :-)

Regards,
JJ

On Saturday, May 29, 2004, at 11:20 PM, Dave Mucha wrote:
> I salvage parts in wholesale fashion from boards with a propane torch.
> large cardboard work area, aluminum foil covered brick.
>

On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:58:24 -0400, John Johnson <johnatl@...> wrote:

> Just to be sure we're on the same page, this
> is what I was referring to:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/36x37
>
> Regards,
> JJ
>

yea, usd 10 for you..

I told you, too expensive HERE, i'd have to pay well above 80eur for such
a simple tool.

Thank you for reminding me that you get everything practically for free
over there ;-).

ST

On Sun, 30 May 2004 10:02:48 -0400, John Johnson <johnatl@...> wrote:

> I've had good luck cutting the board out around chips with
> a Dremel and cutting disc. You can also cut the board between
> the legs. For multi-layer boards with huge power planes,
> this makes it a lot easier to heat the chip legs to remove them.
> I use a shop torch, or a small kitchen torch.
>
> To bad we can't salvage that thru-hole plating and use it in
> our boards :-)
>
> Regards,
> JJ
>

fastest is to use a hot air gun.
It can be done in a way which preserves the part AND component with little
training,
even with throughhole plated boards.

You need to get a good hold of the component. I usually push a thin wire
under it
and form a loop to pull at. then heat with the hot air gun and simply pull
the component
out as soon as you hear a squealing noise when wiggling at the pulling
wire.

If you have no heat gun use a small screwdriver to lever the part out
while heating leg after
leg with a standard iron. apply additional solder. you need to go over the
pins in turns, they
will give a slight amount each time.

If you need the board keep the screwdriver force really low, otherwise you
will pull out
throughhole plating "tubes". (which you can't resuse i fear ;-) )

ST

ST

On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:14 pm, crankorgan wrote:

> > I've seen those heat guns, never thought about using one to get
> > parts off a board, and didn't know that they reached solder-melting
> > temperature. It shouldn't be a surprise, though, since they'll make
> > paint bubble up pretty good...
>
> Roy,
> The machine for changing surface mount chips has a heat gun on
> both sides of the board. The nozzels move together. There is a
> temperature control. The company that makes them is called HART. You
> put a dab of stuff on the chip. When the stuff turns clear the chip
> will lift off. With the heat gun you preheat the bottom of the board
> and then go in for the kill from the top. I mount the board in a bench
> vise so it does not fall.

Sounds like a good plan to me. :-)

> Years ago people used a propane torch.

I think I may have tried that years ago, I don't really remember. I know my
brother tried it a while back, in his driveway -- the problem with that is
it's too darn easy to set the board on fire, and those fumes are pretty
nasty.

> I used to worry about hurting parts with heat until I saw a wave soldering
> machine and surface mounted parts being soldered in a toaster oven. Some
> heat guns also come with deflector tips to localize the air. The heat gun
> also works great with shrink tubing and bending plastic.

I used one for heatshrink when we were making "fans" to go on the end of
"snakes" (think audio, going between a stage and a mixing console somewhere
out in the audience area). A typical fan had 16 or 24 lines going down, and
3-6 coming back up, each one having a 3 foot length of heatshrink over it.
To try it any other way would've been *real* time-consuming...

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> > I have a home-built solder sucker unit, and
> initially started with using
> > small-diameter steel tubing (brake line bought at
> an auto parts store),
> > and
> > the same rubber hose that you see all over
> engines, used as vacuum line.
> > This
> > turned out to be rather unsatisfactory in terms of
> performance -- I
> > couldn't
> > get a high enough flow rate through it -- so I
> changed the fittings and
> > now
> > use 1/2" copper tubing and some 5/8" or so clear
> tubing I picked up at
> > Lowe's
> > (home center).
>
> This must be a misunderstanding.
>
> I'm talking about a "active" solder sucker.
>
> The type that has a metal hollow tip, attached to a
> metal pipe which is
> heated.
> the back end of this metal pipe has to carry the
> hose.
>
> ST
>
>

I have a machine like what you are tying to build it
is made by pace this is how mine is made there is a
glass tube that fits up against the holow tip tube
with a s shaped piece of metal in it the metal
instantly cools the molten solder then a filter plug
a rubber stopper that the suction hose hooks to the
tube is about half inch in diameter 4 inches long
the glass wont conduct heat from the tip hope this
helps if you need i will send you some pic's
good luck




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> I have a machine like what you are tying to build it
> is made by pace this is how mine is made there is a
> glass tube that fits up against the holow tip tube
> with a s shaped piece of metal in it the metal
> instantly cools the molten solder then a filter plug
> a rubber stopper that the suction hose hooks to the
> tube is about half inch in diameter 4 inches long
> the glass wont conduct heat from the tip hope this
> helps if you need i will send you some pic's
> good luck
>

I think i have worked with a very similar unit, but i fear i can't
get this glass tube thing to work as i have no such glass.
i think ordinary glass would crack due to heat tensions.

thanks

ST

the glass is probly pyrex the kind they use in lab
stuff i bet you can get a sample piece the right size
i thick wall test tub might also work just cut the end
off it i think the hardest peice to get will be
heat resistent stopper up against the tip
--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> > I have a machine like what you are tying to build
> it
> > is made by pace this is how mine is made there is
> a
> > glass tube that fits up against the holow tip tube
> > with a s shaped piece of metal in it the metal
> > instantly cools the molten solder then a filter
> plug
> > a rubber stopper that the suction hose hooks to
> the
> > tube is about half inch in diameter 4 inches long
> > the glass wont conduct heat from the tip hope this
> > helps if you need i will send you some pic's
> > good luck
> >
>
> I think i have worked with a very similar unit, but
> i fear i can't
> get this glass tube thing to work as i have no such
> glass.
> i think ordinary glass would crack due to heat
> tensions.
>
> thanks
>
> ST
>
>
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>
>
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On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:37:23 -0700 (PDT), kenneth magers
<kenneth_m_73149@...> wrote:

> the glass is probly pyrex the kind they use in lab
> stuff i bet you can get a sample piece the right size
> i thick wall test tub might also work just cut the end
> off it i think the hardest peice to get will be
> heat resistent stopper up against the tip

I think high temperature silicone can handle it.
I must have some somewhere....

ST