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RE: First PCB....

RE: First PCB....

2004-05-17 by P K

Hi to everyone.

OK, I am not new to the world of PCB making (using college equipment)
but now I want to make my own at home, staring simple with a PCB kit from 
Maplin (UK).
My question is how to treat the ferric chloride I can get (liquid or 
pellets) to get the most life out of it?
Also, how/where can I dispose of used ferric chloride in the UK?
I have read (on the web, so I am going to take it with a pinch of salt till 
told otherwise) that it is possible to use the liquid as the base for 
concrete, turn it into a lump'o rock and chuck it in the bin?

many thanx for your time,

PK

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE: First PCB....

2004-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 17 May 2004 13:53:00 +0100, P K <oneNastyViper@...> wrote:

> Hi to everyone.
>
> OK, I am not new to the world of PCB making (using college equipment)
> but now I want to make my own at home, staring simple with a PCB kit from
> Maplin (UK).
> My question is how to treat the ferric chloride I can get (liquid or
> pellets) to get the most life out of it?

How to treat FeCl?
Some would say dump it, never use it ;-).

There are only a few tricks how you can prolong life, acids i think.
and electrolysis...
Not sure myself, not using the yellow from hell.

> Also, how/where can I dispose of used ferric chloride in the UK?
> I have read (on the web, so I am going to take it with a pinch of salt 
> till
> told otherwise) that it is possible to use the liquid as the base for
> concrete, turn it into a lump'o rock and chuck it in the bin?
>
I've read that too... the concrete should neutralize it and the copper
is bound in the concrete then, not sure.

If you want my suggestion: don't use ferric cloride, use CuCl etchant,
it is much less of a pain in the ... .

look in the links section for more information.

ST
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> many thanx for your time,
>
> PK
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
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>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: First PCB....

2004-05-17 by Phil

If you must use FeCl, don't get the pellets or powder.  Its 
exothermic (I think this is the right term) when it reacts with water 
and produces a lot of heat and splashing if you aren't careful.  
Makes a gawdawful mess.  Nasty stuff.

I agree with Stefan, CuCl is a better way to go (cheap, easy 
availability of components).  Even Ammonium Persulfate is better than 
FeCl (no staining and doesn't generate heat when mixed with water) 
though relatively pricey.

Re: First PCB....

2004-05-18 by onenastyviper

Maplins has the hexahydrate, I thought there was two types: 
hexahydrate and another anhydrous one?
Don't ask me if there is a difference, I haven't studied any chemistry
but on a website its said to use the hexahydrate not the anhydrous 
one???
This etching chemistry is complicated...all I want to do is etch 
small circuits in a little tub with the least amount of hassle with 
easy availble and reasonably safe chemicals (ie I don't want to wipe 
out a little part of swinton:-P)

PK

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> If you must use FeCl, don't get the pellets or powder.  Its 
> exothermic (I think this is the right term) when it reacts with 
water 
> and produces a lot of heat and splashing if you aren't careful.  
> Makes a gawdawful mess.  Nasty stuff.
> 
> I agree with Stefan, CuCl is a better way to go (cheap, easy 
> availability of components).  Even Ammonium Persulfate is better 
than 
> FeCl (no staining and doesn't generate heat when mixed with water) 
> though relatively pricey.

Re: First PCB....

2004-05-18 by leon_heller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> If you must use FeCl, don't get the pellets or powder.  Its 
> exothermic (I think this is the right term) when it reacts with 
water 
> and produces a lot of heat and splashing if you aren't careful.  
> Makes a gawdawful mess.  Nasty stuff.

The hydrated form doesn't generate very much heat or splash much. It 
should be added to the water rather than vice versa. The anhydrous 
form generates more heat. I've never had any problems with either 
type, though.


Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: First PCB....

2004-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

> The hydrated form doesn't generate very much heat or splash much. It
> should be added to the water rather than vice versa. The anhydrous
> form generates more heat. I've never had any problems with either
> type, though.
>
>
> Leon
>

Second that.

Heat was never a problem while i used it.

But it is very nasty stuff...

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: First PCB....

2004-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:40:31 -0000, onenastyviper 
<oneNastyViper@...> wrote:

> Maplins has the hexahydrate, I thought there was two types:
> hexahydrate and another anhydrous one?
> Don't ask me if there is a difference, I haven't studied any chemistry
> but on a website its said to use the hexahydrate not the anhydrous
> one???
> This etching chemistry is complicated...all I want to do is etch
> small circuits in a little tub with the least amount of hassle with
> easy availble and reasonably safe chemicals (ie I don't want to wipe
> out a little part of swinton:-P)
>
> PK


The chemistry is not really complicated, if you want to maintain a good 
etchant
with least cost and no waste it is complicated.
If you only want to make the occassional pcb and don't care if you put in
5cent or 10cent worth of chemicals then you need not regard the chemistry 
much.

I still suggest using CuCl.
A simple and effective etching tank is a tupperware container.
The flat ones work just fine, the PCB need not be vertical and you need
much less etchant than in e.g. a cerial container.
The lid is tight enough to prevent vapor escaping, and also prevents a 
disaster
if you knock the tank over while in storage.
For single-sided pcbs a piece of tape makes a great pcb handle.
For CuCl you only need HCl (Muriatic acid), and H2O2, which is both easy 
to get
hold of.

The procedure when etching is to place the board in the ethant and add a 
small
amount of H2O2. Then it etches, you take the board out, put the etchant 
away,
and reuse next time again only adding a small amount of H2O2.

If one day the etching stops and you see blue sludge on the copper the HCl 
is spent.
add a bit and on it goes again.

That is all the chemistry involved for the occassional PCB.

ST

Re: First PCB....

2004-05-18 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leon_heller" 
<leon_heller@h...> wrote:
> The hydrated form doesn't generate very much heat or splash much. 
It 
> should be added to the water rather than vice versa. The anhydrous 
> form generates more heat. I've never had any problems with either 
> type, though.
> 
> 
> Leon

Interesting.  I didn't notice 2 forms being sold.  Not that it 
matters much as I dont intend to use FeCl unless desperate and I'll 
get the pre-mixed stuff from radio shack.

And, yes, I added the dry stuff to the water but it still made a 
horrible mess splattering.  Even small amounts caused problems.  I 
did have several years of University Chem so I know the proper 
procedures.

Phil

Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-18 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:40:31 -0000, onenastyviper 
> <oneNastyViper@h...> wrote:
> 
> > Maplins has the hexahydrate, I thought there was two types:
> > hexahydrate and another anhydrous one?
> > Don't ask me if there is a difference, I haven't studied any 
chemistry
> > but on a website its said to use the hexahydrate not the anhydrous
> > one???
> > This etching chemistry is complicated...all I want to do is etch
> > small circuits in a little tub with the least amount of hassle 
with
> > easy availble and reasonably safe chemicals (ie I don't want to 
wipe
> > out a little part of swinton:-P)
> >
> > PK
> 
> 
> The chemistry is not really complicated, if you want to maintain a 
good 
> etchant
> with least cost and no waste it is complicated.
> If you only want to make the occassional pcb and don't care if you 
put in
> 5cent or 10cent worth of chemicals then you need not regard the 
chemistry 
> much.
> 
> I still suggest using CuCl.
> A simple and effective etching tank is a tupperware container.
> The flat ones work just fine, the PCB need not be vertical and you 
need
> much less etchant than in e.g. a cerial container.
> The lid is tight enough to prevent vapor escaping, and also 
prevents a 
> disaster
> if you knock the tank over while in storage.
> For single-sided pcbs a piece of tape makes a great pcb handle.
> For CuCl you only need HCl (Muriatic acid), and H2O2, which is both 
easy 
> to get
> hold of.
> 
> The procedure when etching is to place the board in the ethant and 
add a 
> small
> amount of H2O2. Then it etches, you take the board out, put the 
etchant 
> away,
> and reuse next time again only adding a small amount of H2O2.
> 
> If one day the etching stops and you see blue sludge on the copper 
the HCl 
> is spent.
> add a bit and on it goes again.
> 
> That is all the chemistry involved for the occassional PCB.
> 
> ST


I'm no chemist, but HCL is hydrogen and Clorene ?
H2O2 is hydrogen and oxygen.

add Sodium bi-carbonate (ie: Baking Soda, not baking powder) to the 
mix and you bind the oxygen to the carbon and get CO2 and that is 
harmless in small quantities

The CL is bound to the  sodium so you get NaCL or salt and that is 
harmlelss in small quantities.

So... for the end of life thing you wind up with copper as the big 
problem.  

Once neutrlaized, the above mix can be dried without releasing any 
air born toxins and leave you with the dried powders.

Those you can probably reduce to some very small size provided you 
didn't just dump a box of baking soda into the bowl.

Then put at in a plastic bag and and mark 

NaHCO3  - baking soda
NaCL-  from HCL and NaHCO3 reaction
Cu - copper


and drop off at your local hazardous waste facility.


Is my chemistry correct ?


Would electrolysos in a container with a box of baking soda on top be 
anohter way to reduce the hazards ?

Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: First PCB....

2004-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

> Interesting.  I didn't notice 2 forms being sold.  Not that it
> matters much as I dont intend to use FeCl unless desperate and I'll
> get the pre-mixed stuff from radio shack.
>
> And, yes, I added the dry stuff to the water but it still made a
> horrible mess splattering.  Even small amounts caused problems.  I
> did have several years of University Chem so I know the proper
> procedures.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> ----------


I must have had the other kind then, a half-a-liter solution did just get 
hand-warm.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

>
> NaHCO3  - baking soda
> NaCL-  from HCL and NaHCO3 reaction
> Cu - copper
>
>
> and drop off at your local hazardous waste facility.
>
>
> Is my chemistry correct ?
>

you probably have no metallic copper, more like CuCl2 and CuCl....

the acid is definitely no problem, neutralize with anything...

The H2O2 degrades to pure water, the oxygen goes in the air in a matter of 
hours/days.

As we have established before the copper compounds are the problem, 
possibly killing
the bacteria in the wastewater plant.


Best idea in my opinion is neutralize, and then let evaporate without 
danger.

Can lime be used for neutralizing it?
slaked lime like you use for construction i mean.....

ST

Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-18 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> >
> > NaHCO3  - baking soda
> > NaCL-  from HCL and NaHCO3 reaction
> > Cu - copper
> >
> >
> > and drop off at your local hazardous waste facility.
> >
> >
> > Is my chemistry correct ?
> >
> 
> you probably have no metallic copper, more like CuCl2 and CuCl....
> 
> the acid is definitely no problem, neutralize with anything...
> 
> The H2O2 degrades to pure water, the oxygen goes in the air in a 
matter of 
> hours/days.
> 
> As we have established before the copper compounds are the problem, 
> possibly killing
> the bacteria in the wastewater plant.
> 
> 
> Best idea in my opinion is neutralize, and then let evaporate 
without 
> danger.
> 
> Can lime be used for neutralizing it?
> slaked lime like you use for construction i mean.....
> 
> ST


Heck, if you just leave the stuff outside to evaporate, all you would 
have left is some salts and the residual copper.

That would be in such small amounts that you could scrape that into 
your baggie and give to the hasmat disposal.  

But, I'm thinking that here in the US, we use copper pennies and 
copper water pipe so we probalby dump more copper into the waste 
stream than all the pcb houses put togehter.

Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-19 by Adam Seychell

Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>NaHCO3  - baking soda
>>NaCL-  from HCL and NaHCO3 reaction
>>Cu - copper
>>
>>
>>and drop off at your local hazardous waste facility.
>>
>>
>>Is my chemistry correct ?
>>
> 
> 
> you probably have no metallic copper, more like CuCl2 and CuCl....
> 
> the acid is definitely no problem, neutralize with anything...
> 
> The H2O2 degrades to pure water, the oxygen goes in the air in a matter of 
> hours/days.
> 
> As we have established before the copper compounds are the problem, 
> possibly killing
> the bacteria in the wastewater plant.
> 
> 
> Best idea in my opinion is neutralize, and then let evaporate without 
> danger.
> 
> Can lime be used for neutralizing it?
> slaked lime like you use for construction i mean.....
> 
> ST

Yep, I've used slaked lime a few times. its mostly calcium hydroxide 
Ca(OH)2. You get CaCl2 which is soluble. Builders lime is 1/1000th cost of 
bicarbonate soda from a food store.

If you want to remove copper then easiest approach is throw in some scrap 
iron and/or aluminum while the etchant is still slightly acidic. The copper 
precipitates as copper metal and aluminium/iron goes into solution.
After about 1 week the solution will be crystal clear with brown copper 
sludge on the bottom. Syphon out most of the liquid being careful not to 
disturb the sediment, neutralize the remaining sludge and leave few days to 
dry to a dark crust. Works well with spent ammonium persulfate etchant and 
CuCl. But I havn't tried treating FeCl3 etchant this way.

Adam

Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-19 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
...
> If you want to remove copper then easiest approach is throw in some
scrap 
> iron and/or aluminum while the etchant is still slightly acidic. The
copper 
> precipitates as copper metal and aluminium/iron goes into solution.
> After about 1 week the solution will be crystal clear with brown copper 
> sludge on the bottom. Syphon out most of the liquid being careful
not to 
> disturb the sediment, neutralize the remaining sludge and leave few
days to 
> dry to a dark crust. Works well with spent ammonium persulfate
etchant and 
> CuCl. But I havn't tried treating FeCl3 etchant this way.


Adam, would you post this in the Files section, in the Acid Etching
folder?

This is great info. I'm very uncomfortable just dumping this stuff,
not etched very many boards so mostly I just dumped baking soda into
FeCl (yuck) let it dry and put it in the trash.

BTW, if anyone near Tacoma, WA wants a bunch of dry FeCl, I have
several pounds to get rid of. Give me a couple of chunks of PCB and
they are yours. I'm going to try making some CuCl.

Steve

Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-19 by Richard Mustakos

Adam,
Thanks for the info on slaked lime.
But go with the iron: aluminum may be better at getting the copper out, 
but when I asked a company that deals with powdered metals about the 
toxic waste thing, they said that aluminum was considered more hazardous 
then copper.  They said there were no restriction on copper for them, 
but there were aluminum restrictions.
But if you do use aluminum, treat it right.  Small aluminum 
powder/crystals are not a fire hazard directly, like phosphorus or 
plutonium (phosphogenic?), but they are a combustion hazard.  My father 
told me that in Viet Nam, they used aluminum powder with a small starter 
charge to blow up buildings,  The small charge mixed the aluminum powder 
with the air, and started it burning.  Aluminum burns fairly slowly 
(compared to explosives), so it's not a sharp explosion, just a big old 
push that lifts the roof up and knocks the walls down.  I expect that is 
the case with most metallic powders.  I don't know the powder volume 
requirements to do damage, so be careful with it, or store it outside. 
 But even plate aluminum burns - that is, sustains a fire with no help 
once started (USS Stark and M113s, for instance), while iron plate does 
not.  I guess Aluminum burning releases more KWatts per unit mass, and 
has a lower ignition temperature then steel or iron.
Richard
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>If you want to remove copper then easiest approach is throw in some scrap 
>iron and/or aluminum while the etchant is still slightly acidic. The copper 
>precipitates as copper metal and aluminium/iron goes into solution.
>After about 1 week the solution will be crystal clear with brown copper 
>sludge on the bottom. Syphon out most of the liquid being careful not to 
>disturb the sediment, neutralize the remaining sludge and leave few days to 
>dry to a dark crust. Works well with spent ammonium persulfate etchant and 
>CuCl. But I havn't tried treating FeCl3 etchant this way.
>
>Adam
>  
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: First PCB.... neutralizing the HCL

2004-05-19 by Adam Seychell

I know that iron salts are safe to dump (in reasonable concentrations), but 
that news about aluminum in the environment is good to know. So scrap iron 
it is. Small pieces are faster because increased surface area, but metal 
powder is definitely not required, steel food cans out of the trash bin do 
a perfectly fine job. Over the years I have dumped many liters of this 
neutralized precipitated etchant solution on my garden, with zero effect.

Steve,
  I should try write up a web page someday on treating etchants with scrap 
iron, but I would only doing this after getting more scientific results and 
doing a few experiments. I suspect the copper concentration in the solution 
after 1 week is under 100 ppm (%0.01 or 0.1 g/liter). I can test this by 
adding excess ammonium hydroxide and so any copper dissolved in there will 
form deep blue copper complex. Normally, in clear solutions a extreamily 
faint blue tint is visible at Cu concentrations around 10ppm. But the 
dissolved iron(II) ions forms cloudy yellow/brown iron(II) hydroxide with 
the ammonium hydroxide and makes it difficult see the blue shade. The 
ammonium hydroxide is only needed as a test to confirm the process is working.

Adam

Richard Mustakos wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Adam,
> Thanks for the info on slaked lime.
> But go with the iron: aluminum may be better at getting the copper out, 
> but when I asked a company that deals with powdered metals about the 
> toxic waste thing, they said that aluminum was considered more hazardous 
> then copper.  They said there were no restriction on copper for them, 
> but there were aluminum restrictions.
 > ....

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