Homebrew_PCBs

Hey Gang,
Many years ago I made some double sided boards for a guy
at work building a power amp. I took the PC layout from the magazine
he had. I taped it to a board. I used a sharp point to mark each
component hole. I then drilled the hole locations. I cleaned the
board with steel wool and dried it. I wore white cotton gloves during
the next step. I took a marking pen. I put a dot of ink at each hole
on both sides of the board. I then turned the dots into pads. Then
it was connect the dot time. I then etched the board. Success!

John

Hi Listies,

My first "exposure" to making circuit boards was in an early class in
college (late 60's). The instructor had us put masking tape on the
board material, draw the circuit, then take an Exacto knife, cut out
pads and traces. Finger nail polish was then dabbed into the removed
trace and pad areas, and let to dry. When dry, the tape was pealed off,
leaving a resist pattern that could then be etched. Mind you, these
were for audio boards.

Since then I've done a lot of wire-wrap. But that takes a lot of time.
Advantage is that you can remove and move wires. I use a "Manhattan"
layout, with each wire making only 90 deg turns to get to it's
destination on the board. Every wire stays at it's proper level, and no
rat's nest is allowed. I can "tug" on a wire, and see where it is
going. I thought about a CNC controlled table, that would position my
professional WW gun to the pin wanted. It would then "move" to the dest
pin (all controlled by a CNC file generated from the schematic capture
program's net list). There are PCB board systems that rely on a
"stitch" system, where wires are "welded" onto pads. That's something
that could possibly be built by hobbyists (the XY positioning system),
if we could figure out how to weld the wires.

Too bad we can't use a swivel Exacto blade, and cut the same, this time
leaving the traces and pads intact. Then etch.

I also like the "scribe on layout dye and etch the isolations" that has
been proposed and tried to a limited extent.

Just using a resist pen to draw the pads and traces still appeals to me,
and who knows, what about a "resist spray" that is applied through
apertures, much like Gerber. Or how about John's idea of directly
exposing photo-resist with a high intensity light, again using an
aperture system?

But I gotta LOVE mechanically etching (milling) my boards! Fits in with
CNC mills!

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Hey Gang,
> Many years ago I made some double sided boards for a guy
> at work building a power amp. I took the PC layout from the magazine
> he had. I taped it to a board. I used a sharp point to mark each
> component hole. I then drilled the hole locations. I cleaned the
> board with steel wool and dried it. I wore white cotton gloves during
> the next step. I took a marking pen. I put a dot of ink at each hole
> on both sides of the board. I then turned the dots into pads. Then
> it was connect the dot time. I then etched the board. Success!
>
> John

--- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> Too bad we can't use a swivel Exacto blade, and cut the same,
> this time
> leaving the traces and pads intact. Then etch.

I posted pictures of one of the PCBs I made using my vinyl cutter.
You can get the swivel knife holders used to cut vinyl that are in
pen bodies to fit many plotters, but then you have to take care of
offset compensation in software.

I cut the vinyl, weeded it, and transfered it onto the PCB blank. I
suppose you could stick shelf paper to the PCB and cut and weed it
on the PCB.

I was going to give a link right into the files, but Yahoo groups
says it is busy right now.

So here it is from memory, look at the appropriate folder:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/

Steve Greenfield

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LOL been there done that - I also remember when I was a kid, buying self
adhesive shelving paper, the kind you use to line kitchen drawers also, and
slicing it into thin strips with a guillotine, and stuck the strips to
copperclad board for resist..... Worked great.

Then there was the time I got ahold of some sulfuric acid to etch boards -
what a mess.

Anyone remember the old Letraset ruboff transfer sheets with donuts and
lines?

Lukas

> crankorgan wrote:
> >
> > Hey Gang,
> > Many years ago I made some double sided boards for a guy
> > at work building a power amp. I took the PC layout from the magazine
> > he had. I taped it to a board. I used a sharp point to mark each
> > component hole. I then drilled the hole locations. I cleaned the
> > board with steel wool and dried it. I wore white cotton gloves during
> > the next step. I took a marking pen. I put a dot of ink at each hole
> > on both sides of the board. I then turned the dots into pads. Then
> > it was connect the dot time. I then etched the board. Success!
> >
> > John

I used Letraset, last time I remember it was about 1980....
hansw

Lukas Louw wrote:

> LOL been there done that - I also remember when I was a kid, buying
> self
> adhesive shelving paper, the kind you use to line kitchen drawers
> also, and
> slicing it into thin strips with a guillotine, and stuck the strips to
>
> copperclad board for resist..... Worked great.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Steve,

You cut vinyl? What is vinyl then? I recall rubylith from a long time
ago that the microwave guys used for special boards, but the only vinyl
I know is the stuff one puts on the kitchen floor! Must be for
something else. Are the other "router" guys cutting vinyl for floors or
what?

Saw your pix. Looks like it works! How to you stick the vinyl to the
board? I suppose you don't cut the vinyl on the PCB because it might
dull the knife?

Alan KM6VV


Steve Greenfield wrote:

>
> --- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:
>
> > Too bad we can't use a swivel Exacto blade, and cut the same,
> > this time
> > leaving the traces and pads intact. Then etch.
>
> I posted pictures of one of the PCBs I made using my vinyl cutter.
> You can get the swivel knife holders used to cut vinyl that are in
> pen bodies to fit many plotters, but then you have to take care of
> offset compensation in software.
>
> I cut the vinyl, weeded it, and transfered it onto the PCB blank. I
> suppose you could stick shelf paper to the PCB and cut and weed it
> on the PCB.
>
> I was going to give a link right into the files, but Yahoo groups
> says it is busy right now.
>
> So here it is from memory, look at the appropriate folder:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/
>
> Steve Greenfield

I would guess that he is referring to sign vinyl. It is the plastic film
material that is cut then attached to a backing to make signs and
banners. The stuff I have played with was about .005" thick with a self
adhesive on the back.

Tim
[Denver CO]

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> You cut vinyl? What is vinyl then? I recall rubylith from a
> long time ago that the microwave guys used for special
> boards, but the only vinyl I know is the stuff one puts on
> the kitchen floor! Must be for something else. Are the
> other "router" guys cutting vinyl for floors or what?
>
> Saw your pix. Looks like it works! How to you stick the
> vinyl to the board? I suppose you don't cut the vinyl on the
> PCB because it might dull the knife?
>
> Alan KM6VV
>
>
> Steve Greenfield wrote:
> >
> > --- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Too bad we can't use a swivel Exacto blade, and cut the
> same, this
> > > time leaving the traces and pads intact. Then etch.
> >
> > I posted pictures of one of the PCBs I made using my vinyl
> cutter. You
> > can get the swivel knife holders used to cut vinyl that are in pen
> > bodies to fit many plotters, but then you have to take care
> of offset
> > compensation in software.
> >
> > I cut the vinyl, weeded it, and transfered it onto the PCB blank. I
> > suppose you could stick shelf paper to the PCB and cut and
> weed it on
> > the PCB.
> >
> > I was going to give a link right into the files, but Yahoo
> groups says
> > it is busy right now.
> >
> > So here it is from memory, look at the appropriate folder:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
>
>
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>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Tim, smack on the nose.

Alan, when you see a sign on the side of a vehicle, if it isn't
painted then there is a 99.99% chance that it is sign vinyl. It
comes in various thicknesses on a pretty thick backing paper.

The cutter for it is a tiny Xacto-like blade that swivels in very
small ball bearings. The vinyl cutter works just like a plotter, in
fact many also take pens, at least the older ones.

However, think about how a swivel wheel on a TV cart works- if you
move the leg of the cart straight, then make a 90 degree change in
direction, the path left in the carpet is a rounded off corner
because the swivel has to catch up with the direction of motion.

You can compensate for this by pulling the leg past the corner
until the center of the wheel (or point of the blade) is where the
corner must turn, then you have to arc the leg around that axis
until it is in a line with the next direction of motion, then
continue on.

So it ain't so easy. For a vinyl cutter, it depends on how far off
from center the point of the blade is, and how sharp an angle the
blade is. And of course you can't turn on a dime. IE, it must allow
some curve to the corners to allow the blade to continue traveling
at all times and not just swivel in place.

Some sign vinyl cutters (most, I think) do this compensation in the
electronics. My old Graphtec does this, and of course it is
adjustable as it varies according to the blade and the thickness of
the vinyl. You can buy sign cutting software that will perform this
compensation so that you can use a regular plotter with add-on
swivel cutting blades, but the few pieces of software that will do
this typically run in the thousands of dollars. Cheaper just to buy
a new 12" sign cutter than buy that software.

Oh, and the way it cuts just the right thickness- on my Graphtec it
has a thickwalled brass tube the blade sticks out of, the brass
rides on the vinyl and you adjust how far the blade sticks out so
that it just barely scores the backing paper through the vinyl.

Then "weeding" means to remove all the vinyl you don't want
transfered. A transfer tape is then applied to the surface of the
vinyl. Transfer tape is sort of like a weak masking tape, only
really wide (up to 4 feet). The idea is that it sticks to the vinyl
better than the vinyl sticks to it's backing, but not as well as
the vinyl sticks to anything else. Anyway, then you lay down the
transfer tape with the vinyl on it onto the surface, burnish it
down, then carefully remove the transfer tape, leaving the vinyl
behind.

I have a huge roll of black sign vinyl that is very old, so I use
it for temporary purposes. It wrinkles up and peels away after a
few weeks of weather. So it works great for PCBs. Unfortunately
it's age means it is a big pain to weed when cutting very fine
shapes like PCB traces. Newer vinyl works much better.

Does that explain it?

Steve Greenfield


--- Tim Goldstein <timg@...> wrote:

> I would guess that he is referring to sign vinyl. It is the
> plastic film
> material that is cut then attached to a backing to make signs and
> banners. The stuff I have played with was about .005" thick with
> a self
> adhesive on the back.
>
> Tim
> [Denver CO]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

Thanks Tim,

I'm not familiar with it, unless it's similar to the stuff the microwave
guys were playing with (sounds like it might be). After they put the
vinyl together, do they make a photo print? Or is it the final
product? I don't know anything about making signs!

If the vinyl is used in a photo process (like the old rubylith) then I
suspect they could also be use for OUR PCB's.

Alan KM6VV


Tim Goldstein wrote:

>
> I would guess that he is referring to sign vinyl. It is the plastic film
> material that is cut then attached to a backing to make signs and
> banners. The stuff I have played with was about .005" thick with a self
> adhesive on the back.
>
> Tim
> [Denver CO]
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > You cut vinyl? What is vinyl then? I recall rubylith from a
> > long time ago that the microwave guys used for special
> > boards, but the only vinyl I know is the stuff one puts on
> > the kitchen floor! Must be for something else. Are the
> > other "router" guys cutting vinyl for floors or what?
> >
> > Saw your pix. Looks like it works! How to you stick the
> > vinyl to the board? I suppose you don't cut the vinyl on the
> > PCB because it might dull the knife?
> >
> > Alan KM6VV
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Too bad we can't use a swivel Exacto blade, and cut the
> > same, this
> > > > time leaving the traces and pads intact. Then etch.
> > >
> > > I posted pictures of one of the PCBs I made using my vinyl
> > cutter. You
> > > can get the swivel knife holders used to cut vinyl that are in pen
> > > bodies to fit many plotters, but then you have to take care
> > of offset
> > > compensation in software.
> > >
> > > I cut the vinyl, weeded it, and transfered it onto the PCB blank. I
> > > suppose you could stick shelf paper to the PCB and cut and
> > weed it on
> > > the PCB.
> > >
> > > I was going to give a link right into the files, but Yahoo
> > groups says
> > > it is busy right now.
> > >
> > > So here it is from memory, look at the appropriate folder:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/
> > >
> > > Steve Greenfield
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums.
> > FREE Money 2002.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA> /bGYolB/TM
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------~->
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I'll bet you could cut rubylith in it, too.

The cut vinyl is applied to a van or sign surface, and then that is
normally the final product. I apply the vinyl right to the copper
as a direct etch resist, then remove it after etching.

I've cut label shapes on it in white vinyl and then printed on it
with an Alps wax thermal to make labels for bottles. Roland makes a
combo cutter and printer that prints in wax thermal or resin
(similar to wax but much tougher).

Steve Greenfield

--- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> Thanks Tim,
>
> I'm not familiar with it, unless it's similar to the stuff the
> microwave
> guys were playing with (sounds like it might be). After they put
> the
> vinyl together, do they make a photo print? Or is it the final
> product? I don't know anything about making signs!
>
> If the vinyl is used in a photo process (like the old rubylith)
> then I
> suspect they could also be use for OUR PCB's.
>
> Alan KM6VV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the detailed description! I wasn't aware of what is being
done in the sign business!

I've recently heard of these swivels being about $100, which is a little
high just to play around with, but I'd like to see one run! I just
couldn't imagine all that vinyl work on a kitchen floor!

Alan KM6VV
(trying to learn new stuff every day)


Steve Greenfield wrote:

>
> Tim, smack on the nose.
>
> Alan, when you see a sign on the side of a vehicle, if it isn't
> painted then there is a 99.99% chance that it is sign vinyl. It
> comes in various thicknesses on a pretty thick backing paper.
>
> The cutter for it is a tiny Xacto-like blade that swivels in very
> small ball bearings. The vinyl cutter works just like a plotter, in
> fact many also take pens, at least the older ones.
>
> However, think about how a swivel wheel on a TV cart works- if you
> move the leg of the cart straight, then make a 90 degree change in
> direction, the path left in the carpet is a rounded off corner
> because the swivel has to catch up with the direction of motion.
>
> You can compensate for this by pulling the leg past the corner
> until the center of the wheel (or point of the blade) is where the
> corner must turn, then you have to arc the leg around that axis
> until it is in a line with the next direction of motion, then
> continue on.
>
> So it ain't so easy. For a vinyl cutter, it depends on how far off
> from center the point of the blade is, and how sharp an angle the
> blade is. And of course you can't turn on a dime. IE, it must allow
> some curve to the corners to allow the blade to continue traveling
> at all times and not just swivel in place.
>
> Some sign vinyl cutters (most, I think) do this compensation in the
> electronics. My old Graphtec does this, and of course it is
> adjustable as it varies according to the blade and the thickness of
> the vinyl. You can buy sign cutting software that will perform this
> compensation so that you can use a regular plotter with add-on
> swivel cutting blades, but the few pieces of software that will do
> this typically run in the thousands of dollars. Cheaper just to buy
> a new 12" sign cutter than buy that software.
>
> Oh, and the way it cuts just the right thickness- on my Graphtec it
> has a thickwalled brass tube the blade sticks out of, the brass
> rides on the vinyl and you adjust how far the blade sticks out so
> that it just barely scores the backing paper through the vinyl.
>
> Then "weeding" means to remove all the vinyl you don't want
> transfered. A transfer tape is then applied to the surface of the
> vinyl. Transfer tape is sort of like a weak masking tape, only
> really wide (up to 4 feet). The idea is that it sticks to the vinyl
> better than the vinyl sticks to it's backing, but not as well as
> the vinyl sticks to anything else. Anyway, then you lay down the
> transfer tape with the vinyl on it onto the surface, burnish it
> down, then carefully remove the transfer tape, leaving the vinyl
> behind.
>
> I have a huge roll of black sign vinyl that is very old, so I use
> it for temporary purposes. It wrinkles up and peels away after a
> few weeks of weather. So it works great for PCBs. Unfortunately
> it's age means it is a big pain to weed when cutting very fine
> shapes like PCB traces. Newer vinyl works much better.
>
> Does that explain it?
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- Tim Goldstein <timg@...> wrote:
> > I would guess that he is referring to sign vinyl. It is the
> > plastic film
> > material that is cut then attached to a backing to make signs and
> > banners. The stuff I have played with was about .005" thick with
> > a self
> > adhesive on the back.
> >
> > Tim
> > [Denver CO]
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Steve,

White vinyl, black vinyl, looks like I'd better find some sign shop
supplies!

Alan KM6VV


Steve Greenfield wrote:

>
> I'll bet you could cut rubylith in it, too.
>
> The cut vinyl is applied to a van or sign surface, and then that is
> normally the final product. I apply the vinyl right to the copper
> as a direct etch resist, then remove it after etching.
>
> I've cut label shapes on it in white vinyl and then printed on it
> with an Alps wax thermal to make labels for bottles. Roland makes a
> combo cutter and printer that prints in wax thermal or resin
> (similar to wax but much tougher).
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:
> > Thanks Tim,
> >
> > I'm not familiar with it, unless it's similar to the stuff the
> > microwave
> > guys were playing with (sounds like it might be). After they put
> > the
> > vinyl together, do they make a photo print? Or is it the final
> > product? I don't know anything about making signs!
> >
> > If the vinyl is used in a photo process (like the old rubylith)
> > then I
> > suspect they could also be use for OUR PCB's.
> >
> > Alan KM6VV

--- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> Thanks for the detailed description! I wasn't aware of what is
> being
> done in the sign business!

And I had to figure most of it out myself. The info on the web is
sparse as far as how exactly it is done, and I wasn't about to
order books without being able to flip through them first.

> I've recently heard of these swivels being about $100, which is a
> little
> high just to play around with, but I'd like to see one run! I
> just
> couldn't imagine all that vinyl work on a kitchen floor!

Yeah, the adapter to fit a swivel blade into a pen plotter is about
$130.

> Alan KM6VV
> (trying to learn new stuff every day)
>
>
> Steve Greenfield wrote:
> >
> > Tim, smack on the nose.

Oh, that sounds bad when I re-read it. I meant that Tim got it
smack on the nose.


=====
Steve Greenfield // Digital photo scanning, retouching,
Polymorph Digital Photography // and photomorphing to your specs.
253/318-2473 voice // We use the best little computer in
polymorph@... // the world, the Amiga!
http://www.polyphoto.com/ // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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There's a group for everything. If not, I'll start one. Fortunately
one already exists, but I weasled myself in as co-moderator.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/signmaker/

Please feel free to join! I've been adding links to it since I
joined it a week or two ago.

Steve Greenfield

--- Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> White vinyl, black vinyl, looks like I'd better find some sign
> shop
> supplies!
>
> Alan KM6VV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com