Homebrew PCBs

Sorry about the previous post.  I got to clicking a bit too fast in Outlook.

I've been evaluating different schematic capture and pcb layout programs for
Windows for the last two months.  Of what I've seen, there seem to be three
basic classes of software.  (1) Garbage that is not worth the time to
download, (2) limited usability and (3) ridiculously expensive (>$1500).
Several programs fall into the first category (I won't list them for fear of
offending someone's favorite program).  There is no need to go into the
third.  That leaves the middle category.

Programs like EasyPC are a pleasure to use but are significantly lacking in
functionality.  The well thought out user interface allows you to sit down
and actually be productive in a matter of minutes.  But limited
functionality keeps you from going too far.  At the other end of the scale
is Eagle.  Excellent functionality but totally lacking in a functional user
interface.  Now before anyone says "You're crazy, Eagle's great you just
need to give it a chance" let me say that I will fully agree with you that
Eagle will do just about everything a home hobbyist and many pro's will
need.  BUT, any program that is going to take three weeks of my time just to
figure out how to create new libraries, get them entered into a schematic
and create a board layout is NOT how I define "functional".  It may be great
once you know it, but I would rather spend the learning time actually doing
something productive with another program.  With EasyPC I was able to figure
all of these things out (as far as the cripleware version would allow) in
under a couple of hours.

So, is there anything out there with the usability of EasyPC and the
functionality of Eagle that doesn't fall into category three that I just
haven't come across yet?  What is the closest I can get to both worlds?

What do the people in this group use?

ORCAD is nice,
but if you are no student you won't be able to afford it.

ST


On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:39:14 -0700, Michael Johnston 
<mike_johnston@...> wrote:

> Sorry about the previous post.  I got to clicking a bit too fast in 
> Outlook.
>
> I've been evaluating different schematic capture and pcb layout programs 
> for
> Windows for the last two months.  Of what I've seen, there seem to be 
> three
> basic classes of software.  (1) Garbage that is not worth the time to
> download, (2) limited usability and (3) ridiculously expensive (>$1500).
> Several programs fall into the first category (I won't list them for 
> fear of
> offending someone's favorite program).  There is no need to go into the
> third.  That leaves the middle category.
>
> Programs like EasyPC are a pleasure to use but are significantly lacking 
> in
> functionality.  The well thought out user interface allows you to sit 
> down
> and actually be productive in a matter of minutes.  But limited
> functionality keeps you from going too far.  At the other end of the 
> scale
> is Eagle.  Excellent functionality but totally lacking in a functional 
> user
> interface.  Now before anyone says "You're crazy, Eagle's great you just
> need to give it a chance" let me say that I will fully agree with you 
> that
> Eagle will do just about everything a home hobbyist and many pro's will
> need.  BUT, any program that is going to take three weeks of my time 
> just to
> figure out how to create new libraries, get them entered into a schematic
> and create a board layout is NOT how I define "functional".  It may be 
> great
> once you know it, but I would rather spend the learning time actually 
> doing
> something productive with another program.  With EasyPC I was able to 
> figure
> all of these things out (as far as the cripleware version would allow) in
> under a couple of hours.
>
> So, is there anything out there with the usability of EasyPC and the
> functionality of Eagle that doesn't fall into category three that I just
> haven't come across yet?  What is the closest I can get to both worlds?
>
> What do the people in this group use?
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks,
But, for $6,000 OrCAD would need to create my schematics and boards layouts
for me (without my interaction), order the boards, walk my dogs (and scoop)
and fix my breakfast in the mornings!

On a more serious note, though, does OrCAD offer a student discount?  I
wasn't able to find any information about it on their web site or on any
other sites that handle student discounts for software makers.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Trethan [mailto:stefan_trethan@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:11 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Software Recommendations


ORCAD is nice,
but if you are no student you won't be able to afford it.

ST

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:58:59 -0700, Michael Johnston 
<mike_johnston@...> wrote:

> Thanks,
> But, for $6,000 OrCAD would need to create my schematics and boards 
> layouts
> for me (without my interaction), order the boards, walk my dogs (and 
> scoop)
> and fix my breakfast in the mornings!
>
> On a more serious note, though, does OrCAD offer a student discount?  I
> wasn't able to find any information about it on their web site or on any
> other sites that handle student discounts for software makers.
>
> Mike

They have offered one with the 9.1 version.
It seems they no longer offer student licenses, this is also the reason why
i won't get a new version. I'm stuck with 9.1 (or 9.2 with all the updates 
i think)
and that's it. there are no bugs known to me so i basically can use it as 
long as i want
(i think the license says i shouldn't use it any more when i am no longer 
a student and
i am not allowed to use it for commercial purposes - so in not too long a 
time that will be a problem).
Also the operating systems change, and i definitely can't use it forever.


I'm looking for another software too, didn't like eagle too much.

Orcad 9.2 is really good, and it is hard to reach this level for a cheap 
software.
So i am reluctant to change.

ST

Hello,

Since you've not listed those which don't meet your needs, I can't be 
sure you'll find this helpful.

Try Circad. Extremely fast and easy to use. Library creation is easy, 
and library USE is REALLY easy. Under 1000 bucks, you can get it for 
less if you are a ham. See the website for details. www.holophase.com

64x64" board size. .001" resolution. 16layers. Creates EXCELLENT 
gerbers/docs for the board house!

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Johnston" 
<mike_johnston@v...> wrote:
> Sorry about the previous post.  I got to clicking a bit too fast in 
Outlook.
> 
> I've been evaluating different schematic capture and pcb layout 
programs for
> Windows for the last two months.  Of what I've seen, there seem to 
be three
> basic classes of software.  (1) Garbage that is not worth the time 
to
> download, (2) limited usability and (3) ridiculously expensive 
(>$1500).
> Several programs fall into the first category (I won't list them 
for fear of
> offending someone's favorite program).  There is no need to go into 
the
> third.  That leaves the middle category.
> 
> Programs like EasyPC are a pleasure to use but are significantly 
lacking in
> functionality.  The well thought out user interface allows you to 
sit down
> and actually be productive in a matter of minutes.  But limited
> functionality keeps you from going too far.  At the other end of 
the scale
> is Eagle.  Excellent functionality but totally lacking in a 
functional user
> interface.  Now before anyone says "You're crazy, Eagle's great you 
just
> need to give it a chance" let me say that I will fully agree with 
you that
> Eagle will do just about everything a home hobbyist and many pro's 
will
> need.  BUT, any program that is going to take three weeks of my 
time just to
> figure out how to create new libraries, get them entered into a 
schematic
> and create a board layout is NOT how I define "functional".  It may 
be great
> once you know it, but I would rather spend the learning time 
actually doing
> something productive with another program.  With EasyPC I was able 
to figure
> all of these things out (as far as the cripleware version would 
allow) in
> under a couple of hours.
> 
> So, is there anything out there with the usability of EasyPC and the
> functionality of Eagle that doesn't fall into category three that I 
just
> haven't come across yet?  What is the closest I can get to both 
worlds?
> 
> What do the people in this group use?

On Wednesday 28 April 2004 05:22 am, ballendo wrote:

> 64x64" board size. .001" resolution. 16layers. Creates EXCELLENT
> gerbers/docs for the board house!

That "layers" part caught my attention -- is multilayer stuff really practical 
in a homebrew context?

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:03:11 -0400, Roy J. Tellason 
<rtellason@...> wrote:

> On Wednesday 28 April 2004 05:22 am, ballendo wrote:
>
>> 64x64" board size. .001" resolution. 16layers. Creates EXCELLENT
>> gerbers/docs for the board house!
>
> That "layers" part caught my attention -- is multilayer stuff really 
> practical
> in a homebrew context?
>

these are drawing layers i think, not board layers.
you have one for part outline, one for place outline, one for drill 
drawing,
one for drill, 2 for solder paste, 2 for solder mask, and finally a number 
of copper
layers, which are your board layers. there are also a variety of other
layers which i never use. (and there is a "general" for the "rubber bands" 
for routing)
I only know from orcad where i think you can add more layers (Don't know 
if there
is any limit).

Multilayer boards require the use of throughhole plating, which is 
slightly complicated
to make (and expensive). Some here have done it, and use it with success, 
most (including
me) fear the costs. I do not really need it, most of my boards are 1-layer.
It should be possible to make most boards 2 layer, especially if it is 
allowed
to make them a bit bigger than a 4 layer would be.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:03:11 -0400, Roy J. Tellason 
> <rtellason@b...> wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday 28 April 2004 05:22 am, ballendo wrote:
> >
> >> 64x64" board size. .001" resolution. 16layers. Creates EXCELLENT
> >> gerbers/docs for the board house!
> >
> > That "layers" part caught my attention -- is multilayer stuff 
really 
> > practical
> > in a homebrew context?
> >
> 
> these are drawing layers i think, not board layers.

<snip>

yup.

a single layer board has 

Top copper layer
top paste layer
top solder mask layer
top silkscreen layer

drill map layer
drill hole layer
mechanical layer

seperate file/layer for NCDrill locations and/or Echelon drill file.


a two layer adds...

Bottom copper
bottom paste
bottom silkscreen



> Multilayer boards require the use of throughhole plating, which is 
> slightly complicated
> to make (and expensive). Some here have done it, and use it with 
success, 
> most (including
> me) fear the costs. 

I routinly make two layer boards but do not plate thru holes.  I find 
that by adding bottom traces and resistors or DIP chips, I can make a 
smaller board without adding to the costs.  Actually saving board 
material saves on costs.

I made a 4 layer board by overlapping 2 2 layer boards.  I needed 
huge power traces and could not get them to the TSSOP chip and add 
all the support caps and resistors.  Simple square posts standoffs 
carry the current.

Dave

> I routinly make two layer boards but do not plate thru holes.  I find
> that by adding bottom traces and resistors or DIP chips, I can make a
> smaller board without adding to the costs.  Actually saving board
> material saves on costs.

Of course, sorry, i meant that too..
I too make 2-layer boards with no plating just fine...

Somehow in my head "multilayer" was linked to "more than 2"

I find it still a bit harder to do 2-sided with toner transfer so i try
to keep it on one.
Often i have to etch away the other side blank because my pcb material is 
mostly
two-sided.. Waste, i know, i ought to get the 2-sided thing working as 
good as the
one-sided.


>
> I made a 4 layer board by overlapping 2 2 layer boards.  I needed
> huge power traces and could not get them to the TSSOP chip and add
> all the support caps and resistors.  Simple square posts standoffs
> carry the current.

How did you contact the middle layer? with no throughhole plating?

ST

> >
> > I made a 4 layer board by overlapping 2 2 layer boards.  I needed
> > huge power traces and could not get them to the TSSOP chip and add
> > all the support caps and resistors.  Simple square posts standoffs
> > carry the current.
> 
> How did you contact the middle layer? with no throughhole plating?
> 
> ST


Using the A3977 chip, I found that the power connectors are in the 
corners and the ground n the centers  And the supporting circuityr 
was getting to be a PITA on a cramped board.

I just located 35 mil holes for 25sq pins.  Soldered top and bottom 
on the power board and then only soldered the accessable side on the 
logic board

It did require both boards to be complete before assembling but it is 
one way to put it all together.

I didn't want plugs or connectors, but next time I probably will.

Dave

Sure. Why not?

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roy J. Tellason" 
<rtellason@b...> wrote:
> On Wednesday 28 April 2004 05:22 am, ballendo wrote:
> 
> > 64x64" board size. .001" resolution. 16layers. Creates EXCELLENT
> > gerbers/docs for the board house!
> 
> That "layers" part caught my attention -- is multilayer stuff 
really practical 
> in a homebrew context?

Yes,

The DOS circad I've been using has 16 drawing layers. So the BOARD 
layers might be as few as 8 or as many as 14...

I forgot to add that the DOS version is now about 600 bucks. And it 
includes the ability to output for trace isolation milling directly.

Also, in the windows version you can import a bitmap and run traces 
and pads "on top of" what you've pulled in with the bitmap. Makes 
reverse engineering nice and easy.

This brings up something I've been wondering about Eagle... Can you 
create a schematic from the board layout?  

Thank you in advance,

Ballendo


In Homebrew_PCBs, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> these are drawing layers i think, not board layers.
> you have one for part outline, one for place outline, one for drill 
> drawing,
> one for drill, 2 for solder paste, 2 for solder mask, and finally a 
number 
> of copper
> layers, which are your board layers. there are also a variety of 
other
> layers which i never use. (and there is a "general" for the "rubber 
bands" 
> for routing)
> I only know from orcad where i think you can add more layers (Don't 
know 
> if there
> is any limit).

Hi all

I am new to this group and perhaps this isn't news.  However, I need to
make about three boards and in my web search found the following company,

http://www.expresspcb.com/

They appear to furnish you the software and they do the boards.  Don't know
about their quality or anything else, but it seems like a reasonable
solution for a small number of boards.

Comments, suggestions, and guidance appreciated.

Jay Beckham
Berkeley Springs, WV
NEW WEB SITE: http://www.south-shore-line.com

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Beckham" 
<jbeckham1@e...> wrote:
> I am new to this group and perhaps this isn't news.  However, I
> need to make about three boards and in my web search found the
> following company,
> 
> http://www.expresspcb.com/
> 
> They appear to furnish you the software and they do the boards. 
> Don't know about their quality or anything else, but it seems like
> a reasonable solution for a small number of boards.

This group is more about "instant gratification".  If you can even 
find a place to do it, how much would it cost you to go from circuit 
concept to *finished board in hand* in a matter of a few hours?

A.J.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Beckham" 
<jbeckham1@e...> wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> I am new to this group and perhaps this isn't news.  However, I 
need to
> make about three boards and in my web search found the following 
company,
> 
> http://www.expresspcb.com/
> 
> They appear to furnish you the software and they do the boards.  
Don't know
> about their quality or anything else, but it seems like a reasonable
> solution for a small number of boards.
> 
> Comments, suggestions, and guidance appreciated.
> 
> Jay Beckham
> Berkeley Springs, WV
> NEW WEB SITE: http://www.south-shore-line.com


If your specifications allow all of your stuff to fit onto a mini-
board, you get 3 copies of one board for $59.00 and it is worth the 
cost if you never do another board, and can use the 3 boards.

Platted thru-holes, but no silk screen.

There are knowck-offs.  pcb123 offers a similar method.

and the new kid on the block is pad2pad.

If you plan on doing more boards in the future, Eagle is a free 
software as is WinQCad and they both offer limited boards.  Eagle 
offers a larger board at 4x3 or something and WinQCad is 2.35 square.
 
I think WinQCad is much easier to learn.

Of course if your board is not complicated, we will help you make it 
yourself, again, if you plan on making mroe in the future it is worth 
it.

If your design is reallly simple you can run down to RadioShack and 
for about $20.00 buy two boards and the chemicals to etch them.  

Dave

Hi all

Want to thank those that posted responses to my inquiry.  I downloaded
PCBExpress (nice and easy to use), Eagle (haven't tried it yet), and QCad.  

My particular project at the moment requires about a 2 by 2 circuit. 
However I would like to create a strip of say six circuits.  I will need a
total of 36 circuits or 6 strips. So I guess I will try each and then
decide.  I really like the idea of printing the traces with my printer,
making a negative, and exposing and etching my own boards.

Jay Beckham
Berkeley Springs, WV
NEW WEB SITE: http://www.south-shore-line.com

Yes if you have a laser printer you might also want to try toner transfer.
good luck.

ST


On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:33:39 -0400, James Beckham 
<jbeckham1@...> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Want to thank those that posted responses to my inquiry.  I downloaded
> PCBExpress (nice and easy to use), Eagle (haven't tried it yet), and 
> QCad.
>
> My particular project at the moment requires about a 2 by 2 circuit.
> However I would like to create a strip of say six circuits.  I will need 
> a
> total of 36 circuits or 6 strips. So I guess I will try each and then
> decide.  I really like the idea of printing the traces with my printer,
> making a negative, and exposing and etching my own boards.
>
> Jay Beckham
> Berkeley Springs, WV
> NEW WEB SITE: http://www.south-shore-line.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> decide.  I really like the idea of printing the traces with my printer,
> making a negative, and exposing and etching my own boards.

PCBExpress can't do this directly, they add a grey background and dots
to the printout to prevent it. You can futz with the image and remove
this but it's a pain, especially as you don't have the elements that
make more complex boards more simple. Like transferring netlists, (most
useful) the DRC (pretty useful for double checking your work) and
autorouting (quite useful to get you quickly to 90% done)

I switched from PCBExpress to Eagle and never looked back (except to
transcribe some older projects) yes the user interface is a bit klunky
but it's livable with

-- 
Anthony Toft <toftat@...>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...> 
wrote:
> > decide.  I really like the idea of printing the traces with my 
printer,
> > making a negative, and exposing and etching my own boards.
> 
> PCBExpress can't do this directly, they add a grey background and 
dots
> to the printout to prevent it. You can futz with the image and 
remove
> this but it's a pain, especially as you don't have the elements that
> make more complex boards more simple. Like transferring netlists, 
(most
> useful) the DRC (pretty useful for double checking your work) and
> autorouting (quite useful to get you quickly to 90% done)
> 
> I switched from PCBExpress to Eagle and never looked back (except to
> transcribe some older projects) yes the user interface is a bit 
klunky
> but it's livable with
> 
> -- 
> Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>


Anthony is correct.

Express only offers a simple output and even if you bring it into 
PAINT and remove all the dots and get a picture that looks like a 
board, it will not have the exact pin hole layout.

If you plan on going the Toner Transfer route, you would be well 
served to use one of the free versons of the softwar or just do it in 
your cad program.

Dave

re. negative images - If you can output gerbers, you can get almost 
any manipulation of the impage you want via the various gerber 
utils.  I wouldn't bother with a layout package that cant do that.

I am an Eagle user,  Its powerful, I like it and have gotten used to 
the interface but it is *very* non-intuitive, especially if you are 
used to using Windows Software.  Every command is a little different 
(some do right click, some dont, for example) and some operations are 
a lot more complex than they need to be (move multiple objects 
and "clip board" operations, for examples).  But the free package is 
quite capable and worth spending the time to learn.

Phil

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Michael Johnston" <mike_johnston@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:39 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Software Recommendations


> Sorry about the previous post.  I got to clicking a bit too fast in
Outlook.
>
> I've been evaluating different schematic capture and pcb layout programs
for
> Windows for the last two months.  Of what I've seen, there seem to be
three
> basic classes of software.  (1) Garbage that is not worth the time to
> download, (2) limited usability and (3) ridiculously expensive (>$1500).
> Several programs fall into the first category (I won't list them for fear
of
> offending someone's favorite program).  There is no need to go into the
> third.  That leaves the middle category.
>
> Programs like EasyPC are a pleasure to use but are significantly lacking
in
> functionality.  The well thought out user interface allows you to sit down
> and actually be productive in a matter of minutes.  But limited
> functionality keeps you from going too far.  At the other end of the scale
> is Eagle.  Excellent functionality but totally lacking in a functional
user
> interface.  Now before anyone says "You're crazy, Eagle's great you just
> need to give it a chance" let me say that I will fully agree with you that
> Eagle will do just about everything a home hobbyist and many pro's will
> need.  BUT, any program that is going to take three weeks of my time just
to
> figure out how to create new libraries, get them entered into a schematic
> and create a board layout is NOT how I define "functional".  It may be
great
> once you know it, but I would rather spend the learning time actually
doing
> something productive with another program.  With EasyPC I was able to
figure
> all of these things out (as far as the cripleware version would allow) in
> under a couple of hours.
>
> So, is there anything out there with the usability of EasyPC and the
> functionality of Eagle that doesn't fall into category three that I just
> haven't come across yet?  What is the closest I can get to both worlds?
>
> What do the people in this group use?

Pulsonix is excellent:

http://www.pulsonix.com

It is produced by the same company as EasyPC, but intended for professional
users.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

> On a more serious note, though, does OrCAD offer a student discount?

The student version is free... however its limited to the number of parts,
and I don't think you get the autorouter. At least it used to be that way.

Ron