Homebrew PCBs

Pen Plotter direct etch resist
Italian site. Follow the link to see the etched board. Looks very good.
http://info.supereva.it/mauroh.mybox/home.htm?p

Just added it to the Links page.

Steve

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:59:06 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Pen Plotter direct etch resist
> Italian site. Follow the link to see the etched board. Looks very good.
> http://info.supereva.it/mauroh.mybox/home.htm?p
>
> Just added it to the Links page.
>
> Steve
>

well, it's not exactly what you would want for SMD but it is nice.
looks to me as if tracks between 100mil dil are already a problem.

Another thing is that the holes on the pads are not open, you might think
this is easy to fix with the software, well, i tried 2 weeks and it didn't 
work out.

Now i use TT and it is really WYSIWYG.

Not that i wouldn't encourage plotter experiments, i just want to say it 
seems like a pretty
good idea but for me it didn't work out at all.

ST

Hi Stefan (and listmembers)-

In an earlier post you said you had tried the Staedtler ink with a
plotter pen, and it had failed to plot to PCB very well. You advised
against trying this.

In spite of your experience, I would like to try this, and I am
curious what you specifically used (so I can avoid your errors, if
there are errors). The one reference on the web I could find said "You
have to use a 757 PLx CS refillable plotter point.It is a
Tungsten-carbide plotter point with a cross grove to allow for more
ink flow. The ink is fairly thick."        http://eeshop.unl.edu/pen.txt

I plan to use Staedtler 485 523 sar-9 ink (this I have now). Finding
an inexpensive grooved tungsten-carbide plotter pen is turning out to
be a challenge. The cheapest I can find is about US$64, which is too
expensive for experimenting. Anyway, what plotter pen did you use?

Can anyone suggest an inexpensive source for this kind of pen?

(I don't have a plotter but plan to make my own).

Grant
 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Now i use TT and it is really WYSIWYG.
> 
> Not that i wouldn't encourage plotter experiments, i just want to
say it 

> seems like a pretty
> good idea but for me it didn't work out at all.
> 
> ST

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:00:17 -0000, grantfair2001 
<grant.fair@...> wrote:

> Hi Stefan (and listmembers)-
>
> In an earlier post you said you had tried the Staedtler ink with a
> plotter pen, and it had failed to plot to PCB very well. You advised
> against trying this.
>
> In spite of your experience, I would like to try this, and I am
> curious what you specifically used (so I can avoid your errors, if
> there are errors). The one reference on the web I could find said "You
> have to use a 757 PLx CS refillable plotter point.It is a
> Tungsten-carbide plotter point with a cross grove to allow for more
> ink flow. The ink is fairly thick."        http://eeshop.unl.edu/pen.txt
>
> I plan to use Staedtler 485 523 sar-9 ink (this I have now). Finding
> an inexpensive grooved tungsten-carbide plotter pen is turning out to
> be a challenge. The cheapest I can find is about US$64, which is too
> expensive for experimenting. Anyway, what plotter pen did you use?
>
> Can anyone suggest an inexpensive source for this kind of pen?
>
> (I don't have a plotter but plan to make my own).
>
> Grant


don't build a plotter ;-) ask the local pc gurus, i got mine for free with 
a load of pens.
However, there was no carbide pen included :-(.
I have read the same text you have read and tried to find a carbide pen.
finally got one at ebay, but not one, more like 10 or more instead at 
ebay...
still for some eur 30 or so..

i have one set carbide tipped pens and one set steel pens.
only the smallest (0,18mm) has a X-groove. however this does not change 
much in my opinion.

Of course i tried several of the pens with staedtler red ink.
The problem was that the ink layer is thinner than with a felt tip, the 
trailing edge
of the metal tip seems to "scrape off" a part of the layer.

Finally i gave it up, i still have the 25x pocket microscope from this 
ebay auction and
also some other stuff - so it was not too bad a deal.
The plotter pens i have are not even complete pens, they are only exchange 
tips, but they
contain the complete mechanism with wire and spring and all. had to build 
an adapter for them.

Of course you can try it, i can't stop you from wasting your time. maybe 
if you don't want
to do more detailed work like smd it might just work.
You must use a low-acid etchant, like ferric cloride (i think) or CuCl 
with low acid content.

One thing that definitely works is using a felt-tip pen to apply the ink. 
but it is hard to get
any fine enough trace width with it.

Again, i can't stop you, i can only tell you that i had a perfect toner 
transfer result (with things
like 6,66mil traces) with WAY lower time and WAY lower money investment.


I'm still planning on setting up the plotter for component layout one day.
(the problem with that is that i need to update my librarys as i never 
payd any attention to the
component outline..)


If you really want to do it get a plotter (dont build) and buy a expensive 
pen,
then try, fail, and finally become a toner transfer convert like me ;-).

If everything works out perfectly you will still have design limitations, 
like no holes in the
pads, limited track width, etc... and plotting will be MUCH slower than 
making a toner transfer.


Well, a teacher once told me the experience is all that counts, not the 
result, so i really
shouldn't try to stop you experimenting.


Best of luck, you will need it..

And don't forget to use a "soft" etchant... no 35%Hcl with a load of H2O2 
;-)

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

ST

Thanks, Stefan. The ink I have is thick and black. The thickness is
why a grooved point is necessary. Although the post I mentioned says
this ink is made for plotting on copper that's not what the tech rep
for Staedtler says. It's for plotting on very smooth surfaces.

I will keep my eyes out for a suitable plotter pen. And a plotter if I
can find a source of free ones <g>.

I do use toner transfer and am quite happy with it. I guess I just
can't leave well enough alone.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> don't build a plotter ;-) ask the local pc gurus, i got mine for
free with 
> a load of pens.
> However, there was no carbide pen included :-(.
> I have read the same text you have read and tried to find a carbide pen.
> finally got one at ebay, but not one, more like 10 or more instead at 
> ebay...
> still for some eur 30 or so..
> 
> i have one set carbide tipped pens and one set steel pens.
> only the smallest (0,18mm) has a X-groove. however this does not change 
> much in my opinion.
> 
> Of course i tried several of the pens with staedtler red ink.
> The problem was that the ink layer is thinner than with a felt tip, the 
> trailing edge
> of the metal tip seems to "scrape off" a part of the layer.
> 
> Finally i gave it up, i still have the 25x pocket microscope from this 
> ebay auction and
> also some other stuff - so it was not too bad a deal.
> The plotter pens i have are not even complete pens, they are only
exchange 
> tips, but they
> contain the complete mechanism with wire and spring and all. had to
build 
> an adapter for them.
> 
> Of course you can try it, i can't stop you from wasting your time.
maybe 
> if you don't want
> to do more detailed work like smd it might just work.
> You must use a low-acid etchant, like ferric cloride (i think) or CuCl 
> with low acid content.
> 
> One thing that definitely works is using a felt-tip pen to apply the
ink. 
> but it is hard to get
> any fine enough trace width with it.
> 
> Again, i can't stop you, i can only tell you that i had a perfect toner 
> transfer result (with things
> like 6,66mil traces) with WAY lower time and WAY lower money investment.
> 
> 
> I'm still planning on setting up the plotter for component layout
one day.
> (the problem with that is that i need to update my librarys as i never 
> payd any attention to the
> component outline..)
> 
> 
> If you really want to do it get a plotter (dont build) and buy a
expensive 
> pen,
> then try, fail, and finally become a toner transfer convert like me ;-).
> 
> If everything works out perfectly you will still have design
limitations, 
> like no holes in the
> pads, limited track width, etc... and plotting will be MUCH slower than 
> making a toner transfer.
> 
> 
> Well, a teacher once told me the experience is all that counts, not the 
> result, so i really
> shouldn't try to stop you experimenting.
> 
> 
> Best of luck, you will need it..
> 
> And don't forget to use a "soft" etchant... no 35%Hcl with a load of
H2O2 

> ;-)
> 
> If you have any questions feel free to ask.
> 
> ST

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:45:27 -0000, grantfair2001 
<grant.fair@...> wrote:

> Thanks, Stefan. The ink I have is thick and black. The thickness is
> why a grooved point is necessary. Although the post I mentioned says
> this ink is made for plotting on copper that's not what the tech rep
> for Staedtler says. It's for plotting on very smooth surfaces.
>
> I will keep my eyes out for a suitable plotter pen. And a plotter if I
> can find a source of free ones <g>.
>
> I do use toner transfer and am quite happy with it. I guess I just
> can't leave well enough alone.
>
> Grant

What do you expect from Plotting?


yes the grooved tip may be some help, as said only the 0,18mm tip i have 
is x grooved,
the other tips were straight. i could not notice a difference.

ST

Maybe it sounds crazy for your ears, but in the comunist era we have used
for XY plotters a home made glass pen, very similar with the Staedler or
Rotring pens, and the result was quite amazing, the same resolution as a
0.5 standard pen. You need just a bunsen gas burner, a vial and two right
hands to pull the glass.
The key for continuous traces was keeping down the pen (on the printed
surface) as much as possible.

best regards,
Vasile
http://sudrucan.netfirms.com

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004, grantfair2001 wrote:

> Hi Stefan (and listmembers)-
>
> In an earlier post you said you had tried the Staedtler ink with a
> plotter pen, and it had failed to plot to PCB very well. You advised
> against trying this.
>
> In spite of your experience, I would like to try this, and I am
> curious what you specifically used (so I can avoid your errors, if
> there are errors). The one reference on the web I could find said "You
> have to use a 757 PLx CS refillable plotter point.It is a
> Tungsten-carbide plotter point with a cross grove to allow for more
> ink flow. The ink is fairly thick."        http://eeshop.unl.edu/pen.txt
>
> I plan to use Staedtler 485 523 sar-9 ink (this I have now). Finding
> an inexpensive grooved tungsten-carbide plotter pen is turning out to
> be a challenge. The cheapest I can find is about US$64, which is too
> expensive for experimenting. Anyway, what plotter pen did you use?
>
> Can anyone suggest an inexpensive source for this kind of pen?
>
> (I don't have a plotter but plan to make my own).
>
> Grant
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > Now i use TT and it is really WYSIWYG.
> >
> > Not that i wouldn't encourage plotter experiments, i just want to
> say it
> > seems like a pretty
> > good idea but for me it didn't work out at all.
> >
> > ST
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Vasile-

I've never blown glass but have seen it done.

What did the glass pen look like when it was done? How did it write
the ink? Did it have a "nib", or a ball, or what?

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Vasile Surducan <vasile@s...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe it sounds crazy for your ears, but in the comunist era we have
used
> for XY plotters a home made glass pen, very similar with the Staedler or
> Rotring pens, and the result was quite amazing, the same resolution as a
> 0.5 standard pen. You need just a bunsen gas burner, a vial and two
right

> hands to pull the glass.
> The key for continuous traces was keeping down the pen (on the printed
> surface) as much as possible.
> 
> best regards,
> Vasile
> http://sudrucan.netfirms.com

I reckon you need not blow it.
take a glass tube and locally heat it in gas.
then pull. the more you pull the thinner.
the hollow core ill still be there.

ST

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 04:18:17 -0000, grantfair2001 
<grant.fair@...> wrote:

> Hi Vasile-
>
> I've never blown glass but have seen it done.
>
> What did the glass pen look like when it was done? How did it write
> the ink? Did it have a "nib", or a ball, or what?
>
> Grant
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Vasile Surducan <vasile@s...> 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Maybe it sounds crazy for your ears, but in the comunist era we have
> used
>> for XY plotters a home made glass pen, very similar with the Staedler or
>> Rotring pens, and the result was quite amazing, the same resolution as a
>> 0.5 standard pen. You need just a bunsen gas burner, a vial and two
> right
>> hands to pull the glass.
>> The key for continuous traces was keeping down the pen (on the printed
>> surface) as much as possible.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Vasile
>> http://sudrucan.netfirms.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

On Tuesday 27 April 2004 12:18 am, grantfair2001 wrote:
> Hi Vasile-
>
> I've never blown glass but have seen it done.
>
> What did the glass pen look like when it was done? How did it write
> the ink? Did it have a "nib", or a ball, or what?
>
> Grant

FWIW,  this sounds an awful lot like some stuff that was in a _chemistry_ DIY 
book I had when I was a kid.  You'd use an alcohol lamp,  and glass tubing,  
and the two operations that they detailed involved either making right-angle 
bends or "stretching" heated glass as described here to make an "eye 
dropper".  You'd just heat the glass (the key here to prevent it from 
shattering is to go gradually and heat evenly) and "stretch" it until it was 
just short of closing completely,  then cut it in the middle.

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Vasile Surducan <vasile@s...> wrote:
> > Maybe it sounds crazy for your ears, but in the comunist era we have
>
> used
>
> > for XY plotters a home made glass pen, very similar with the Staedler or
> > Rotring pens, and the result was quite amazing, the same resolution as a
> > 0.5 standard pen. You need just a bunsen gas burner, a vial and two
>
> right
>
> > hands to pull the glass.
> > The key for continuous traces was keeping down the pen (on the printed
> > surface) as much as possible.
> >
> > best regards,
> > Vasile
> > http://sudrucan.netfirms.com
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>