Homebrew PCBs

I found this site to be very interesting where a kit is described 
that you can build yourself.

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

Has anybody done something like this?

Thanks, Caesar.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Caesar Samsi" <cmsamsi@h...> wrote:
> I found this site to be very interesting where a kit is described 
> that you can build yourself.
> 
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> 
> Has anybody done something like this?

Markus, you are famous!

That is Markus's website, he's a member here.

Steve

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:37:50 -0000, you wrote:

>I found this site to be very interesting where a kit is described 
>that you can build yourself.
>
>http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
>
>Has anybody done something like this?
>
>Thanks, Caesar.

Hi Caesar

A couple of other people have informed me that they are interested in
building a similar station. I know for sure that at least 3 people
suceeded.

I'm now finally aproaching the end of a project that kept me busy for
much longer I originally thought. I hope this will soon put me in the
position to further document the station and the latest changes /
improvements I made.

Markus

I've been checking your site, waiting (patiently - no pressure ;) for 
the day when you finalize everything. VERY interested in it myself!

Of course, since we're just mooching, don't feel you have to hurry or 
anything. If you managed to figure it out for yourself then the real 
impatient among us can just buck up and do the legwork themselves 8) 
I'm too lazy so I'll just simply wait until you're good and ready - I 
have 5,323,098 other projects I can work on in the meantime!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:37:50 -0000, you wrote:
> 
> >I found this site to be very interesting where a kit is described 
> >that you can build yourself.
> >
> >http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> >
> >Has anybody done something like this?
> >
> >Thanks, Caesar.
> 
> Hi Caesar
> 
> A couple of other people have informed me that they are interested 
in
> building a similar station. I know for sure that at least 3 people
> suceeded.
> 
> I'm now finally aproaching the end of a project that kept me busy 
for
> much longer I originally thought. I hope this will soon put me in 
the

> position to further document the station and the latest changes /
> improvements I made.
> 
> Markus

Hi Markus
  I ran across a site that looks well suited for this thread and the 
Inkjet printing thread..

http://www.rtcircuits.com/

They have a couple of patented methods of  making (really) printed 
circuits.  The first, they are just printing using conductive ink.  The 
second, and maybe more interesting from your standpoint, they print a 
resistive image of the circuit on a substrate and then plate it.  They 
claim to get circuit widths that are small:
"And Track Widths down to 20 microns are easy to produce."  I really 
like that you are not producing waste copper with this method.  I wonder 
if their ink is stampable?  How resistive is Indian ink, does anyone 
know (Indian ink is pretty much ground carbon and water, isn't it?).
  Is you can see from this post, I'm coming to the realization that some 
type of chemical process will have to occur for me to make pcbs. ;) 
(unless I can get the multilayer laser printing thing going).
  Slap me on the forehead!  Didn't someone say some types of toner are 
conductive?  Does anyone know which ones?  I wonder if they are 
conductive enough to copper plate?  Print the circuit on bare FR-4 in a 
laser printer, and then plate it on.  Has anyone tried that before?  Is 
anyone with a thp system interested?  At this stage, the most I can do 
is root you on and throw out ideas.
Thanks,
Richard

>Hi Caesar
>
>A couple of other people have informed me that they are interested in
>building a similar station. I know for sure that at least 3 people
>suceeded.
>
>I'm now finally aproaching the end of a project that kept me busy for
>much longer I originally thought. I hope this will soon put me in the
>position to further document the station and the latest changes /
>improvements I made.
>
>Markus
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mustakos 
<rmustakos@a...> wrote:
> Hi Markus
>   I ran across a site that looks well suited for this thread and 
the 
> Inkjet printing thread..
> 
> http://www.rtcircuits.com/


Printing the traces and not removing the copper is a great idea.

On the single sided boards, they talked about conductive epoxy 
instead of solder.  Not that sounds like even I could do TSSOP 
packages.

Dave

Dave,
  LOL, I know what you mean - when I see that there is no DIP version
of a chip, I go into cold sweats.
  I've got a licensee of theirs sending specs on how it and some of
their other conductive inks are set up.  Since they are water based,
they may be more compatible with inkjets.  But I have not been able to
get the size of their particles yet. (maybe there is hope for no
chemicals)
Richard

> 
> Printing the traces and not removing the copper is a great idea.
> 
> On the single sided boards, they talked about conductive epoxy 
> instead of solder.  Not that sounds like even I could do TSSOP 
> packages.
> 
> Dave

Actually, they said single "pass" circuits. I understood that to 
mean very thin (depth, not width) tracks. The two pass method makes 
it thicker and then you plate it with copper - the copper mass makes 
it solderable.

At least thats what I got from it.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rmustakos" <rmustakos@a...> 
wrote:
> Dave,
>   LOL, I know what you mean - when I see that there is no DIP 
version
> of a chip, I go into cold sweats.
>   I've got a licensee of theirs sending specs on how it and some of
> their other conductive inks are set up.  Since they are water 
based,
> they may be more compatible with inkjets.  But I have not been 
able to

> get the size of their particles yet. (maybe there is hope for no
> chemicals)
> Richard
> > 
> > Printing the traces and not removing the copper is a great idea.
> > 
> > On the single sided boards, they talked about conductive epoxy 
> > instead of solder.  Not that sounds like even I could do TSSOP 
> > packages.
> > 
> > Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ghidera2000" 
<ghidera2000@y...> wrote:
> Actually, they said single "pass" circuits. I understood that to 
> mean very thin (depth, not width) tracks. The two pass method makes 
> it thicker and then you plate it with copper - the copper mass 
makes 
> it solderable.
> 
> At least thats what I got from it.


Logic stuff could be the single pass, and use conductive epoxy as 
they listed.

Once you start plating, you pretty much get out what you put in.  No 
reason one could not get thich tracks.

But the print once and epoxy a SMT chip is just too cool.

Dave

yes, very cool.  

Dave, I think you'll do anything to avoid soldering SMT...  :)


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ghidera2000" 
> <ghidera2000@y...> wrote:
> > Actually, they said single "pass" circuits. I understood that to 
> > mean very thin (depth, not width) tracks. The two pass method 
makes 
> > it thicker and then you plate it with copper - the copper mass 
> makes 
> > it solderable.
> > 
> > At least thats what I got from it.
> 
> 
> Logic stuff could be the single pass, and use conductive epoxy as 
> they listed.
> 
> Once you start plating, you pretty much get out what you put in.  
No 

> reason one could not get thich tracks.
> 
> But the print once and epoxy a SMT chip is just too cool.
> 
> Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> yes, very cool.  
> 
> Dave, I think you'll do anything to avoid soldering SMT...  :)

Pretty much, but the guy who I send all my SMD stuff to doesn't 
mind.  All he asks is that I don't make TSSOP stuff too often. and I 
keep hearing the phrase 'solder wick is your friend'

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:
> > yes, very cool.  
> > 
> > Dave, I think you'll do anything to avoid soldering SMT...  :)
> 
> Pretty much, but the guy who I send all my SMD stuff to doesn't 
> mind.  All he asks is that I don't make TSSOP stuff too often. and 
I 
> keep hearing the phrase 'solder wick is your friend'
> 
> Dave

Heh, I used to feel the same way Dave - until I actually *tried* 
soldering SMT. Its actually quite easy. I've done SOIC and even a 
couple SOT - the "legged" SMT stuff is a breeze really. The hard 
ones for me are the 0806 capacitors. They're still relatively easy, 
just hard to not end up playing tiddly-winks and firing them across 
the table sometimes ;)

P.S. Yes, using a regular soldering iron - haven't tried the oven 
methods.

They have a bunch of different types of ink, but three main classes:
1) Silver and Copper Conductive ink:  This is all sub milliohm/square 
stuff, almost as good as copper for conduction.
2) Carbon Conductive Inks: Made to be used in it's own right, as faraday 
cage gasket, printing resisters, etc.
3) Plating Seed Ink : very low conductivity, but enough to attract plating.
  The single pass was using the Silver and Copper conductive inks, 
that's the one you have to use conductive epoxy on.  The two pass was 
the seed ink followed by plating, and afterwards you can solder on the 
copper, since it's a normal plated board (Dave, we can use the epoxy on 
that, too, but don't have to).  This is the one I thought would be 
useful for the thp folks.  Though any of them could be real useful.  I 
talked to some industrial inkjet head people.  They said the big issue 
with printing conductive inks through inkjet heads is not clogging,  but 
keeping the conductor from separating out.  For me, that means shaking 
the ink cartridge real hard before I use it.  I don't think the time it 
takes to print a couple of pages will allow significant separation.
  They (Ink Jet Technologies) also said the print heads are about $600 a 
piece, and their "development kit" is $13,500.  The price of that $500 
CNC table is looking better and better...
  I'm going to try and get a small sample from them and fill my Epson 
color 800 with it, and see how well it prints to paper.  Not that I want 
to put circuits on paper (I'm more a card stock kind of guy, myself, 
paper is too flimsy) (well, maybe ok for flex circuits...), but because 
I'm too lazy (and too busy) to make it a flat bed first.  The stuff is 
for water based, fast drying (it's for flexo printing, which is pretty 
high speed), very low VOCs and very conductive.  They don't have full 
product sheets on their inks yet, they are so new, but I do have some 
non comprehensive data sheets.  If anyone is interested, email me off 
line and I'll send them too you.
Richard