Homebrew_PCBs

I am a complete newbie at this, trying to learn enough to do it right-
ish the first time...

I'll be doing a toner-transfer from a photocopier. Does it need to be
a laser copier or will a regular copier do?

I don't plan on using ferric chloride. That leaves, as I understand
it, sodium persulphate and ammonium persulphate. Are both these going
to work OK with the Sharpie I plan to use for touch-up? I read in the
archives of muriatic acid being used, which frankly is not somewhere
I plan to go, but if I ever do, does toner transfer work with it?

The strong peroxide in wood bleaching kits-- I read of someone using
this in the archives, but don't know if it needs thinning, or whether
it even works with toner transfer.

Is there anywhere I can buy just an ounce or so of each of the
persulphates, to try them out, see which one works for me? Hate to
buy a kilogram of something and find out it is no good for my
purposes... and since all I have right now to do is one photoetch
pattern I've made for some brass detailing parts I want to make, I
don't need a huge amount of anything.

TIA for any helpful advice!

sharpies will work but I've had trouble getting it thick enough. You
can get etch resist pens that look an awful lot like a sharpie but
seems to cover a little better. Resist works by a) being insoluable
and b) physically keeping the etchant from the copper. So even tar
or paint would work, too. In a pinch, I've used fingernail polish.

I've used AP and FeCl. AP seems cleaner but it doesn't seem to have
the shelf stability that FeCl does. Once I use up my AP, I'll
probably go back to FeCl. But will never buy the FeCL powder to make
it up - that's one nasty job. The premix is the way to go - you can
get it at your finer Radio Shacks (ok, mybe that's an oxymoron...).
I've never seen any place that sell a "sampler" size. Probably
because you need to have at least a pint to etch with. Built a tank
that takes a liter and it works pretty well.

I use a photo copier with ok results. Just make sure the copier
doesn't cause any distortions (photo copy a ruler in two directions
and measure the copy). It actually has one advantage over a laser
printer in that you can control the amount of toner.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pygar2" <pygar2@y...> wrote:
> I am a complete newbie at this, trying to learn enough to do it
right-
> ish the first time...
>
> I'll be doing a toner-transfer from a photocopier. Does it need to
be
> a laser copier or will a regular copier do?
>
> I don't plan on using ferric chloride. That leaves, as I understand
> it, sodium persulphate and ammonium persulphate. Are both these
going
> to work OK with the Sharpie I plan to use for touch-up? I read in
the
> archives of muriatic acid being used, which frankly is not
somewhere
> I plan to go, but if I ever do, does toner transfer work with it?
>
> The strong peroxide in wood bleaching kits-- I read of someone
using
> this in the archives, but don't know if it needs thinning, or
whether
> it even works with toner transfer.
>
> Is there anywhere I can buy just an ounce or so of each of the
> persulphates, to try them out, see which one works for me? Hate to
> buy a kilogram of something and find out it is no good for my
> purposes... and since all I have right now to do is one photoetch
> pattern I've made for some brass detailing parts I want to make, I
> don't need a huge amount of anything.
>
> TIA for any helpful advice!

> I'll be doing a toner-transfer from a photocopier. Does it need to be
> a laser copier or will a regular copier do?

Any printer or copier using toner as color will work.
some better and some worse.

> I don't plan on using ferric chloride. That leaves, as I understand
> it, sodium persulphate and ammonium persulphate. Are both these going
> to work OK with the Sharpie I plan to use for touch-up? I read in the
> archives of muriatic acid being used, which frankly is not somewhere
> I plan to go, but if I ever do, does toner transfer work with it?

I do not use the "sharpie" because it is not sold here.
i use Steadtler red ink ohp pens. the red is best af all staedtler colors
for resist. i use it in HCl (Muratic acid) & H2H2 and it works.
You can use colophony resin (which is a flux) solved in paint thinner
or denatured alcohol for touch-up also. it withstands HCl and is a flux.
however if you then remove the toner transfer you will srub off the
colophony
and the flux property is of no use.


the toner transfer also works with HCl very good.
i had some "etching through" with hand ironing, where areas of
big pads got a bit dull sometimes, but with the fuser now this
has stopped completely. the plastic of the toner is not attacked
by any etchant i think, only solvents are dangerous for it.

I think you misunderstood the H2O2 thing slightly,
it does not work alone as a etchant.
you need either sulphuric acid or muratic acid with it.
You first make a e.g. 10% muriatic (HCl) acid and put the board
in, then you add a few H2O2 until the etching starts (the board gets dull
red).

you can reuse this etchant ever and ever again. you need only to add h2o2
o keep
it working and if after some time all the HCl is consumed you need
addition of HCl.
you also may need water to adjust. there is this very good document
somewhere
describing the chemistry and adjustment.


I never used any of the persulphates, only FeCl and now the HCl H2O2.
the FeCl is a real mess, i never want to see it again.

It is hard to tell which etchant is best suited, this depends
not only on the intended useage but also on the person using it.
simply use what you like best.
I can not tell you adresses where to get the persulphates, but
the smallest quantities are available at electronic stores (which sell
components and stuff), maybe mail order.

good luck,
and feel free to ask if you have further questions..

ST

> > I don't plan on using ferric chloride. That leaves, as I understand
> > it, sodium persulphate and ammonium persulphate. Are both these going
> > to work OK with the Sharpie I plan to use for touch-up?

> I do not use the "sharpie" because it is not sold here.
> i use Steadtler red ink ohp pens. the red is best af all staedtler

colors

> for resist.

I tested a bunch of markers on an etch in Ferric Chloride. I didn't
heat the ferric chloride enough, I guess, as it took half an hour.

I made several lines in bare patches on the boards with each marker.

Everything but the sharpie and Staedler Lumocolor 313 (red)
dissappeared within minutes.

The Sharpie started failing in the thinner areas. By the time etching
was done, thinner Sharpie lines were completely etched, all Sharpie
lines were considerably narrower and some wider areas had partly
etched spaces.

The Staedler 313 lines were perfect. I did not specifically measure
them before and after, but the widths seemed the same, even the very
narrow lines were still there.

Other people have even tested different colors of Staedler Lumocolor
and found red to work best. I'm not sure if you can still get it as a
refill ink in order to load it into an inkjet printer or an empty
plotter pen.

Steve

None of the pens I have tried, Radio Shack, Sharpie, or Mouser, have lasted
in Cupric Chloride.
The wood bleaching H202 is for cupric chloride, ONLY Do not use it for
Sodium or ammonia based etches.
In 8liters of diluted hcl, I used about 3 teaspoons of the wood bleach h202,
Over a month and about 20 or so 6X9 Dsided pcb I've gone thru 2/3 of the
bottle.

Besides FuCl (ferric), H8N2o8S2(Ammonium), there is CuCl2(Cupric Chloride)
and H-O5-S( Peroxy Sulfuric)
CuCl2 seems to be the choice for TT, and it does work well

Personally I've switched to H-o5-S , I had to use Lab grade 50% H202which I
purchased a 4L bottle from Post-apple scientific co.
http://www.postapplescientific.com/ I drove to PA to pick it up , cause
Freight shipping for 1 4L bottle was $100, the juice itself much cheaper. I
switched to acid tin plated etch resist. And Peroxy Sulfuric wont eat thru
the tin, like CUCl2 will. + I can reclaim the etched copper and reuse it in
my copper plating bath for thru holes, and no more chlorine smell.

JT.

----- Original Message -----
From: "pygar2" <pygar2@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Sharpie compatibility, and other questions...


> I am a complete newbie at this, trying to learn enough to do it right-
> ish the first time...
>
> I'll be doing a toner-transfer from a photocopier. Does it need to be
> a laser copier or will a regular copier do?
>
> I don't plan on using ferric chloride. That leaves, as I understand
> it, sodium persulphate and ammonium persulphate. Are both these going
> to work OK with the Sharpie I plan to use for touch-up? I read in the
> archives of muriatic acid being used, which frankly is not somewhere
> I plan to go, but if I ever do, does toner transfer work with it?
>
> The strong peroxide in wood bleaching kits-- I read of someone using
> this in the archives, but don't know if it needs thinning, or whether
> it even works with toner transfer.
>
> Is there anywhere I can buy just an ounce or so of each of the
> persulphates, to try them out, see which one works for me? Hate to
> buy a kilogram of something and find out it is no good for my
> purposes... and since all I have right now to do is one photoetch
> pattern I've made for some brass detailing parts I want to make, I
> don't need a huge amount of anything.
>
> TIA for any helpful advice!
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> Other people have even tested different colors of Staedler Lumocolor
> and found red to work best. I'm not sure if you can still get it as a
> refill ink in order to load it into an inkjet printer or an empty
> plotter pen.
>
> Steve
>

You can...

never tried it in an inkjet, it is alcohol based i think.
in the carbide plotter pen the line was "scratched thin" by the
trailing edge and it didn't work.

(pebo put it on the list for inkjet ;-) )

ST

> Personally I've switched to H-o5-S , I had to use Lab grade 50%
> H202which I
> purchased a 4L bottle from Post-apple scientific co.
> http://www.postapplescientific.com/ I drove to PA to pick it up , cause
> Freight shipping for 1 4L bottle was $100, the juice itself much
> cheaper. I
> switched to acid tin plated etch resist. And Peroxy Sulfuric wont eat
> thru
> the tin, like CUCl2 will. + I can reclaim the etched copper and reuse it
> in
> my copper plating bath for thru holes, and no more chlorine smell.
>
> JT.
>

How is the process, what do you need to measure to keep things going?
If there are any advantages (like no clorine) i may switch over when the
HCl
bottle is finally empty (but that could take another few years at that
rate...)

ST

Lets put it this way, I'm in over $2K US. Digital titration, magnetic
stirring, 20 different indicator and reagent solutions, but this for more
than just etch, I now have Alkaline copper, acid copper, electro~less acid
nickel, and bright acid tin plating systems.
I have to use Lots of sulfuric acid, sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide,
HCL, copper sulfate, h202, 4 different organic stabilizers, etc...

The recipe for Peroxy Sulfuric, along with COMPLETE instructions is at
www.thinktink.com
I don't think you need the FT2- stabilizer if you just plan to mask the
copper and etch, the stabilizer keeps it from etching other metals besides
copper.(copper/nickel/tin for LONG term corrosion resistance on boards I'll
be selling in kits, or just copper/ tin for things I'll be assembling myself
shortly after etching ) FYI tin directly on copper can become
non~solder~able in short amount of time, It starts immediately and works
it's way to the surface. I've heard in perfect storage conditions you can
get 3 years of solder-ability, but once it's soldered, it' stays conductive.
The nickel acts like a barrier to keep the copper and tin from direct
contact. If you don't mind lots of lead around your house, you can plate
60/40 solderplate with the same setup (chemicals and all) as the tin plate.
If you are at all interested in DIY plating (for thru holes, or tin)
www.thinktink.com and www.caswellplating.com are excellent sources of
information.

I'm not doing prototypes or ones and twos, I'm doing in house production
runs of my own products. Which I think is significantly different than the
standard DIY PCB mantra.
I still feel that *well ventilated CUCl2 is the best solution for DIY
prototypes

Also a note - I found a better - cheaper source for H202, 27% 1 us Gallon,
3.3err someodd liters. for $13.00, From Pool and hot tub supply store
"Lighthouse pools and spas" , It's commonly called Shock in that industry,
and every moderate town probably has a pool /hot tub shop - It's cheaper
that the wood bleach by volume, and works just as well.

JT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Sharpie compatibility, and other questions...


>
> > Personally I've switched to H-o5-S , I had to use Lab grade 50%
> > H202which I
> > purchased a 4L bottle from Post-apple scientific co.
> > http://www.postapplescientific.com/ I drove to PA to pick it up ,
cause
> > Freight shipping for 1 4L bottle was $100, the juice itself much
> > cheaper. I
> > switched to acid tin plated etch resist. And Peroxy Sulfuric wont eat
> > thru
> > the tin, like CUCl2 will. + I can reclaim the etched copper and reuse it
> > in
> > my copper plating bath for thru holes, and no more chlorine smell.
> >
> > JT.
> >
>
> How is the process, what do you need to measure to keep things going?
> If there are any advantages (like no clorine) i may switch over when the
> HCl
> bottle is finally empty (but that could take another few years at that
> rate...)
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Oh, then let me put it that way:
I just decided i do not really need sulphuric acid and H2O2 etching ;-).

However i plan to get a good scale (can't find a hydrometer) and some tools
for measuring the ph for the HCl H2O2.

Any good ideas how to make a working hydrometer?
(Or sorces for buying one in the needed range in europe? (oh yes, cheap
please)
i also have no good scale and want
one for some time now, but they are so expensive. i try to get a used
lab scale at ebay... if i can use a hydrometer in the meantime this would
be nice.

> Also a note - I found a better - cheaper source for H202, 27% 1 us
> Gallon,
> 3.3err someodd liters. for $13.00, From Pool and hot tub supply store
> "Lighthouse pools and spas" , It's commonly called Shock in that
> industry,
> and every moderate town probably has a pool /hot tub shop - It's
> cheaper
> that the wood bleach by volume, and works just as well.
>
> JT
>

well, i will stick with my chemicals shop... the 35% was some ??? 4 eur or
so for 1l.
(i do not know what he charges for the bottle, it is included, but you can
have it refilled.)
He had the pool stuff too, i forgot the name, but it is lower
concentration and was not cheaper.

Find such a shop and you will never go for wood bleach again... Or visit
Vienna in the
holidays and go shopping ;-) (i have no idea what the customs people will
do to you ;-) )


ST

> and found red to work best. I'm not sure if you can still get it

as a

> refill ink in order to load it into an inkjet printer or an empty
> plotter pen.

Guess that you could just buy the pens and open them up to put the
ink into the inkjet printer or plotter pen.

I have used the Sharpie before and works OK, sometimes used it to
fix traces before etching, never tried just using it as the only
resist just to fix resist. I use Ferric Chloride.

Ben

I got a nice hydrometer, range 1.20-1.42 for less than $12 US from:

http://shop2.chemassociates.com/hydrometers.html

They were easy to do business with, and shipped to Canada no problem,
I am sure they could mail one to Europe.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> However i plan to get a good scale (can't find a hydrometer) and

some tools

> for measuring the ph for the HCl H2O2.
>
> Any good ideas how to make a working hydrometer?
> (Or sorces for buying one in the needed range in europe? (oh yes, cheap
> please)

Edmund Scientific had a nice cheap pan balance with weights, case, for
$15.00 Canadian; it was made in India, and appears quite accurate
using various canadian coins a reference weights (these are publsihed
on Can mont website)

> i also have no good scale and want one

Staedtler makes an ink refill, 485 23sar-9 ink. There was a post
around 6 years ago recommending it for plotting to PCB use:

http://eeshop.unl.edu/pen.txt

(Carl Quies, who suggested it, does not seem to be around anymore on
the net, or in Missisauga (near Toronto) where he used to be)

The Staedtler support person in Canada told me that "I have heard of
people using this ink for different things. I honestly do not know
about circuit boards. Officially it is used for glossy plot surfaces."

The guy who recommended it for PCB's recommended using a plotting pen
with a grooved tungsten-carbide ball. If I can find a suitable
drafting or technical pen I will try this ink out, a bottle is only $7
Can.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>
> > Other people have even tested different colors of Staedler Lumocolor
> > and found red to work best. I'm not sure if you can still get it as a
> > refill ink in order to load it into an inkjet printer or an empty
> > plotter pen.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> You can...
>
> never tried it in an inkjet, it is alcohol based i think.
> in the carbide plotter pen the line was "scratched thin" by the
> trailing edge and it didn't work.
>
> (pebo put it on the list for inkjet ;-) )
>
> ST

> The guy who recommended it for PCB's recommended using a plotting pen
> with a grooved tungsten-carbide ball. If I can find a suitable
> drafting or technical pen I will try this ink out, a bottle is only $7
> Can.
>
> Grant
>

I have the bottle, i have the x-grooved pen, and i have no useable result.
do not waste your time with it.
the trailing edge of the pen scratches the layer of ink thin, so that the
etchant
gets through.

also the plotter i have is so slow, i can make 10 TT in the meantime and
they
are better quality.

NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE is my conclusion.
I know some people use the OHP pens directly in the plotter, which would
work, but
the line widths (ant the consistency of that) is not what i need.

However it makes a beautiful component legend.



ST

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:38:15 -0000, grantfair2001
<grant.fair@...> wrote:

> I got a nice hydrometer, range 1.20-1.42 for less than $12 US from:
>
> http://shop2.chemassociates.com/hydrometers.html
>
> They were easy to do business with, and shipped to Canada no problem,
> I am sure they could mail one to Europe.
>
> Grant
>

I'm so stupid sometimes....

I just remembered i actually HAVE a hydrometer, from 1.16 to 1.30 on a
scale length
of about 3cm.

I do not remember which accuracy is needed for the HCl, i wil have to
reread the text...

this meter was for measuring batterys i think, it also has "charge
instantly" "half
charged" and "ok" on the other side of the scale.

it is not very high, which means the accuracy is not high, but means also
i need a smaller
sample (this one could swim in 8 cm or so).


Thank you for your suggestions, you see sometimes i simply forget things,
and then
they just spring into my mind...

ST

Hi again,

i have tested the hydrometer, and it shows that my current
etchant is at 1.19 density.

is there any way to test the hydrometer on it's accuracy?
i think i remember reading about using NaCl Solution
for this. How much salt do i need for making 1.2 or so and is this
possible at all? i mean can the water take that much salt?

Which range of density is ok for CuCl? how accurate must that be
for good operation?



I also made the 1 molar NaOH solution as described in
http://www.pacificsun.ca/~robert/pcb/cucl.htm.

But i have no Bromophenol Blue, can i use Methylorange instead?
can i follow the instructions for bromophenol blue or do i need
to normalize it or something?

I also have another question, i used tap water instead of distilled water
for mixing the etchant. do you think this was a bad idea?

The current batch of etchant i used for ages now, only adding H2O2 and HCl
whenever needed. i never added water.
The etching gradually slowed down, of course i can dispose of this lot
and make a new one (i will do that when the new etchant container is
finally ready
maybe).

But i thought i might as well try to figure out what is wrong, and finding
the hydrometer made me do it finally.

thanks..

Stefan