Homebrew_PCBs

One of the things that I've been having trouble with on toner
transfer is smearing due to either incorrect pressure or too much
heat. My theory is that the smearing is happening because I have to
move the iron around to compensate for the holes in the iron. (for
various reasons, I'd prefer not to get a laminator) so I placed a
thin piece of aluminum (about 24 gauge) on top of the board between
the toner paper and the iron. The idea is to more uniformly
distribute the heat. It worked pretty well but I found I needed to
increase the iron temperature a bit over the direct contact
approach. This makes sense since the sheet metal is conducting heat
away from the board. I did move the iron a little during the heating
phase but much less than with out the al sheet.

I got much less smearing than before and much more uniform line
widths. Significantly reducing movement of the iron seemed to really
improve the quality of the product. This leads me to think that it
might work to just get two flat plates of steel, say 1/4 inch, heat
them in the oven to the correct temperature and then quickly
sandwitch the board/toner paper assembly between the plates. The
weight of the top plate may be sufficient to force toner-copper
contact. The thermal mass of the plates will need to be enough to
maintain the temp above the fusing point for 30 seconds or so.

Phil

Phil wrote:

> One of the things that I've been having trouble with on toner
> transfer is smearing due to either incorrect pressure or too much
> heat. My theory is that the smearing is happening because I have to

Metal plates are not a bad idea and can make for more even results. But the
iron can also work great by itself, holes and moving it shouldn't be a problem.
Use the tip of the iron, and only tack down one corner of the print good
enough to stick well. Using the tip work a diagonal line through the print,
then work out from the middle diagonal line to the other corners, then go back
over and give good heat and pressure to the whole board. If you're doing the
whole iron at once at first, you're very likely not getting the toner stuck well
first and shifting things slightly while initially moving the iron. You want to
work a good tacking in first without shifting anything, then get the good
transfer heat and pressure to get most of the toner on the board.

And if you're not already doing it, you should run the print back through the
printer several times for the extra fusing before the transfer. Much improved
the results from my transfers.

But it may still all be just thick toner from large particles, and you'll
probably never get everything consistent enough to always get the same results
from thick toner. The range between too much heat and pressure and too little
is just too narrow with a large easy to smash particle. Even with the metal
sheeting it may be hard to keep things consistent.

I only ever really got OK results from previous attempts, never the good to
excellent that I since got from the 600 DPI printer. I really need to go back
though and try the other techniques I now do with the other printer, and see how
much of the quality loss is really just the toner and resolution. I imagine
it's most of it though, good results came fast and easy on the 6L.

Alan

thanks for the reply. I dont think the toner smearing is due to
movement of the paper. the toner is getting blotchy - a straight
line will have varying width but is still straight. Nearby features
will be fine. If my wife ever gives me back MY digital camera, I'll
post pix. Its significantly better with the plate. I've tried
cutting down the toner (easy with the copier) but with only a little
difference. when I've used too much pressure, it really gets bad.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Phil wrote:
> > One of the things that I've been having trouble with on toner
> > transfer is smearing due to either incorrect pressure or too much
> > heat. My theory is that the smearing is happening because I have
to
>
>
> Metal plates are not a bad idea and can make for more even
results. But the
> iron can also work great by itself, holes and moving it shouldn't
be a problem.
> Use the tip of the iron, and only tack down one corner of the
print good
> enough to stick well. Using the tip work a diagonal line through
the print,
> then work out from the middle diagonal line to the other corners,
then go back
> over and give good heat and pressure to the whole board. If you're
doing the
> whole iron at once at first, you're very likely not getting the
toner stuck well
> first and shifting things slightly while initially moving the
iron. You want to
> work a good tacking in first without shifting anything, then get
the good
> transfer heat and pressure to get most of the toner on the board.
>
> And if you're not already doing it, you should run the print
back through the
> printer several times for the extra fusing before the transfer.
Much improved
> the results from my transfers.
>
> But it may still all be just thick toner from large particles,
and you'll
> probably never get everything consistent enough to always get the
same results
> from thick toner. The range between too much heat and pressure and
too little
> is just too narrow with a large easy to smash particle. Even with
the metal
> sheeting it may be hard to keep things consistent.
>
> I only ever really got OK results from previous attempts, never
the good to
> excellent that I since got from the 600 DPI printer. I really need
to go back
> though and try the other techniques I now do with the other
printer, and see how
> much of the quality loss is really just the toner and resolution.
I imagine
> it's most of it though, good results came fast and easy on the 6L.
>
> Alan

I just had an idea, how about instead of the cloths iron use a couple of
fairly thick (0.25-0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove top. With
the paper and board sandwiched to provide the pressure, this could be
set up as you want it, then 'cooked'. After a little experimentation you
could accurately see how much pressure is needed (by varying the weight
of the top plate) I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess work
inherent with the iron.

Would this work?
--
Anthony Toft <toftat@...>

sounds familiar...

I thinhk you'll get better control over the temperature if you use an
oven.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
wrote:

> I just had an idea, how about instead of the cloths iron use a

couple of

> fairly thick (0.25-0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove top.

With

> the paper and board sandwiched to provide the pressure, this could

be

> set up as you want it, then 'cooked'. After a little

experimentation you

> could accurately see how much pressure is needed (by varying the

weight

> of the top plate) I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess work
> inherent with the iron.
>
> Would this work?
> --
> Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>

I tried this once with a skillet. Used an IR thermometer to make sure
the temperature was not too high. I got some transfer, but I do not
think the skillet was flat enough to get even pressure.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
wrote:

> I just had an idea, how about instead of the cloths iron use a

couple of

> fairly thick (0.25-0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove top.

With

> the paper and board sandwiched to provide the pressure, this could

be

> set up as you want it, then 'cooked'. After a little

experimentation you

> could accurately see how much pressure is needed (by varying the

weight

> of the top plate) I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess work
> inherent with the iron.
>
> Would this work?
> --
> Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
wrote:

> I just had an idea, how about instead of the
> cloths iron use a couple of fairly thick (0.25-
> 0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove top.
> With the paper and board sandwiched to provide
> the pressure, this could be set up as you want
> it, then 'cooked'. After a little experimentation
> you could accurately see how much pressure is
> needed (by varying the weight of the top plate)
> I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess
> work inherent with the iron.
>
> Would this work?

Heh, it would be better to use the plates with the
iron.

I find that all I need to do to get good contact
is just put a couple sheets of plain old paper
between the iron and the PCB. The paper will
compress just a little on the high spots of the
iron and still gives a little bit of pressure to
the areas where the iron normally wouldn't press
very hard.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> thanks for the reply. I dont think the toner
> smearing is due to movement of the paper. the
> toner is getting blotchy - a straight line will
> have varying width but is still straight.
> Nearby features will be fine. If my wife ever
> gives me back MY digital camera, I'll post pix.
> Its significantly better with the plate. I've
> tried cutting down the toner (easy with the
> copier) but with only a little difference. When
> I've used too much pressure, it really gets bad.

Two things I can think of.

First off, you may have the printer/copier set too
dark. Too much toner will make it smear on melting.

Second, what kind of paper are you using? Glossy
(or semi-gloss) printer paper will tend to smear
because there's nowhere for the toner to flow but
outward. If you use the standard coated inkjet
paper...which looks like it's been painted with a
"flat" paint (as opposed to glossy) excess toner
can flow between the grains. This greatly reduces
the sideways flow.

It's pretty easy to find coated inkjet paper in
an office supply place like office max. Here's
a page from an article that mentions a couple
ways to tell if something is coated inkjet paper
(sorry for the long link)

http://www.extremecooling.org/ec/modules.php?
name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73&page=2

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> > Phil wrote:
> > > One of the things that I've been having trouble with on toner
> > > transfer is smearing due to either incorrect pressure or too

much

> > > heat. My theory is that the smearing is happening because I

have

> to
> >
> >
> > Metal plates are not a bad idea and can make for more even
> results. But the
> > iron can also work great by itself, holes and moving it shouldn't
> be a problem.
> > Use the tip of the iron, and only tack down one corner of the
> print good
> > enough to stick well. Using the tip work a diagonal line through
> the print,
> > then work out from the middle diagonal line to the other corners,
> then go back
> > over and give good heat and pressure to the whole board. If

you're

> doing the
> > whole iron at once at first, you're very likely not getting the
> toner stuck well
> > first and shifting things slightly while initially moving the
> iron. You want to
> > work a good tacking in first without shifting anything, then get
> the good
> > transfer heat and pressure to get most of the toner on the board.
> >
> > And if you're not already doing it, you should run the print
> back through the
> > printer several times for the extra fusing before the transfer.
> Much improved
> > the results from my transfers.
> >
> > But it may still all be just thick toner from large particles,
> and you'll
> > probably never get everything consistent enough to always get the
> same results
> > from thick toner. The range between too much heat and pressure

and

> too little
> > is just too narrow with a large easy to smash particle. Even

with

> the metal
> > sheeting it may be hard to keep things consistent.
> >
> > I only ever really got OK results from previous attempts,

never

> the good to
> > excellent that I since got from the 600 DPI printer. I really

need

> to go back
> > though and try the other techniques I now do with the other
> printer, and see how
> > much of the quality loss is really just the toner and

resolution.

> I imagine
> > it's most of it though, good results came fast and easy on the 6L.
> >
> > Alan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "poitsplace" <lmburt@e...> wrote:

> It's pretty easy to find coated inkjet paper in
> an office supply place like office max. Here's
> a page from an article that mentions a couple
> ways to tell if something is coated inkjet paper
> (sorry for the long link)
>
> http://www.extremecooling.org/ec/modules.php?
> name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73&page=2

You can use TinyURL.com to shorten it, or you can use <> on either
side to keep it together:

<http://www.extremecooling.org/ec/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73&page=2>

Steve

thanks. here's the state of my "operations":

paper: I'm using magazine semi-glossy. I'll try some of the coated
inkjet paper. I did have a couple of sheets that I used a while ago
and think it had the same problem but I could be misremembering as I
was fussing with learning the process. by the way, passing the paper
though the copier multiple times to increase the amount of fusing
seems to have no effect. it does come out hot so I know its
getting "cooked".

toner density: I've played with this a lot. really cranked it down
and even at super light settings I am seeing the blotchiness along
with complete drop out due to too little toner. In general, I keep
it on the light side.

heat: I think I've got this right as i started high and kept
dropping it until the toner was not adhering, then kicked it up a
bit. I'm getting good aherence. Using the aluminum sheet metal seems
to improve the uniformity of the heating but there is still some
blotchiness.

pressure: I still think this, along with uneven heating, is part of
my problem. Its hard for me to control which is why I thought the
metal plates would do a more even/uniform job.

I'm not going to obsess over this blotchiness as it doesn't keep the
board from being usable, it just doesn't look super clean. I'll keep
at it so Me Etch Pretty, Someday.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "poitsplace" <lmburt@e...>
wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...>

wrote:

>
> > thanks for the reply. I dont think the toner
> > smearing is due to movement of the paper. the
> > toner is getting blotchy - a straight line will
> > have varying width but is still straight.
> > Nearby features will be fine. If my wife ever
> > gives me back MY digital camera, I'll post pix.
> > Its significantly better with the plate. I've
> > tried cutting down the toner (easy with the
> > copier) but with only a little difference. When
> > I've used too much pressure, it really gets bad.
>
> Two things I can think of.
>
> First off, you may have the printer/copier set too
> dark. Too much toner will make it smear on melting.
>
> Second, what kind of paper are you using? Glossy
> (or semi-gloss) printer paper will tend to smear
> because there's nowhere for the toner to flow but
> outward. If you use the standard coated inkjet
> paper...which looks like it's been painted with a
> "flat" paint (as opposed to glossy) excess toner
> can flow between the grains. This greatly reduces
> the sideways flow.
>
> It's pretty easy to find coated inkjet paper in
> an office supply place like office max. Here's
> a page from an article that mentions a couple
> ways to tell if something is coated inkjet paper
> (sorry for the long link)
>
> http://www.extremecooling.org/ec/modules.php?
> name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73&page=2
>
>
>
>
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> > > Phil wrote:
> > > > One of the things that I've been having trouble with on toner
> > > > transfer is smearing due to either incorrect pressure or too
> much
> > > > heat. My theory is that the smearing is happening because I
> have
> > to
> > >
> > >
> > > Metal plates are not a bad idea and can make for more even
> > results. But the
> > > iron can also work great by itself, holes and moving it

shouldn't

> > be a problem.
> > > Use the tip of the iron, and only tack down one corner of the
> > print good
> > > enough to stick well. Using the tip work a diagonal line

through

> > the print,
> > > then work out from the middle diagonal line to the other

corners,

> > then go back
> > > over and give good heat and pressure to the whole board. If
> you're
> > doing the
> > > whole iron at once at first, you're very likely not getting the
> > toner stuck well
> > > first and shifting things slightly while initially moving the
> > iron. You want to
> > > work a good tacking in first without shifting anything, then

get

> > the good
> > > transfer heat and pressure to get most of the toner on the

board.

> > >
> > > And if you're not already doing it, you should run the print
> > back through the
> > > printer several times for the extra fusing before the

transfer.

> > Much improved
> > > the results from my transfers.
> > >
> > > But it may still all be just thick toner from large

particles,

> > and you'll
> > > probably never get everything consistent enough to always get

the

> > same results
> > > from thick toner. The range between too much heat and pressure
> and
> > too little
> > > is just too narrow with a large easy to smash particle. Even
> with
> > the metal
> > > sheeting it may be hard to keep things consistent.
> > >
> > > I only ever really got OK results from previous attempts,
> never
> > the good to
> > > excellent that I since got from the 600 DPI printer. I really
> need
> > to go back
> > > though and try the other techniques I now do with the other
> > printer, and see how
> > > much of the quality loss is really just the toner and
> resolution.
> > I imagine
> > > it's most of it though, good results came fast and easy on the

6L.

> > >
> > > Alan

Phil wrote:

> thanks. here's the state of my "operations":
>
> paper: I'm using magazine semi-glossy. I'll try some of the coated
> inkjet paper. I did have a couple of sheets that I used a while ago
> and think it had the same problem but I could be misremembering as I
> was fussing with learning the process. by the way, passing the paper
> though the copier multiple times to increase the amount of fusing
> seems to have no effect. it does come out hot so I know its
> getting "cooked".
>
> toner density: I've played with this a lot. really cranked it down
> and even at super light settings I am seeing the blotchiness along
> with complete drop out due to too little toner. In general, I keep
> it on the light side.
>
> heat: I think I've got this right as i started high and kept
> dropping it until the toner was not adhering, then kicked it up a
> bit. I'm getting good aherence. Using the aluminum sheet metal seems
> to improve the uniformity of the heating but there is still some
> blotchiness.
>
> pressure: I still think this, along with uneven heating, is part of
> my problem. Its hard for me to control which is why I thought the
> metal plates would do a more even/uniform job.
>
> I'm not going to obsess over this blotchiness as it doesn't keep the
> board from being usable, it just doesn't look super clean. I'll keep
> at it so Me Etch Pretty, Someday.
>

http://www.jetprintphoto.com/c/graphicgloss.asp

Try this, or find the Office Max Hammermill equivalent since this is also a
Hammermill paper. It has a good coating, and a paper sheet. I think Office Max
just bypassed JetPrint and bought their paper direct to make a bit more money.

Note that magazine paper is very thin and dense, and most has a solid
coating. You will easily get the smashing of toner as you're getting, there is
no where for the toner to go but out. There are some who swear by the magazine
paper mainly because it's free, but they also tend to swear you must use a
laminator etc to get good results. You can get great results from this paper
without anything else being special. And the extra fusing is to keep the
coating from this type paper from sticking, I wouldn't expect it to do much for
magazine paper. I'd assumed you were already using good paper, you should try
some just to understand the difference in quality and ease. Even if you can
live with the magazine quality for now you should see this so you know you can
step up if you need to later. You'll spend far more time trying to make the
magazine paper process good than you will just buying the 50 cents a page paper.
And the 20 pages in the pack for $10 lasts a good while if you're judicious
and print tests on normal paper first etc.

Pressure is the problem, but you'll never be able to get it 'right' with such
a solid dense paper. You may find a mag with a thicker softer paper, but
they're few and far between since transport bulk dictates that thin highly
compressed paper is better for a mag. For contrast I can barely make my prints
smash at all or have uneven results, even with intentional wide variations in
pressure. This type paper is your limiting factor, not that you don't have
superhuman or mechanical control over the pressure.

A few sheets of normal paper behind may mitigate some of this. But even then
the coating on the inkjet papers is a bit different and seperates from the
looser page better. My prints leave the coating on the toner with only a little
of the page sticking in the coating, and the extra coating tears right at the
trace edges, and the resulting transfers are nearly perfect, even the holes are
left clear even with almost all the coating sticking on the toner. I don't
think you could get that kind of coating seperation with the highly compressed
tight bonding of the magazine coating and page.

Actually I'll have to try some different magazines and see if there's
anything out there that's as good. Free paper would be good. But from how most
everyone using it says lamination is absolutely critical and knowing the basic
construction of most pages I don't really expect to find it, but worth checking.
Using this paper and fusing an extra time or two so the unprinted coating is
dried better and won't stick are almost my whole process, and hard to consider
that a drawback since the paper and printer do all the work. After that the
ironing etc is all very simple, instead of having to get it exactly right it's
almost impossible to go wrong.

http://photos.yahoo.com/alantak69

Look in PCB, this was a rush job since I expected to have to clean it up and
it was just a proto board anyway, so was going to have wire jumpers etc. Even
with hardly ironing so a couple small pieces didn't stick, it came out nearly
perfect. Note the second photo, smooth even fuzz almost everywhere, but almost
no holes were covered so the copper was properly exposed for etch, and only a
couple had to be picked at by hand. Little secondary touch up or handling
required. Note the first pic, you can see the image in the coating on the page
since the coating seperation was so clean. I only spent about two minutes doing
the ironing, a little bit more would have likely gotten a perfect transfer. The
route through the pins wasn't smashing, I had it drawn a bit wide in Eagle but
it was still not touching and worked perfectly. While the pics are a bit fuzzy
from being close in, the trace edges were sharp. If your results aren't equally
easy and painless with just an iron by hand, maybe this will let you see it's
likely your choice of paper. It's hard for what I'm doing to even mess up. The
stepper board in the other album was a much earlier board, before I knew to fuse
extra and clean the copper better with acetone. Still came out well, but took a
lot more hand work since the coating stuck much more. That's what the extra
fusing is for, almost totally eliminates any unprinted coating sticking with
this easily seperated coating.


Bit of a read but hopefully this will help you bypass the idea that you need
to do a lot of work on heat and pressure, and get you to try some other ideas
with a better paper. It's much easier than fixing the process with the paper
you're using right now, and well worth the 50 cents a page when printing boards
to make everything else much less critical.

It's even hard for me to really work on the print to copper idea too hard,
this really is easy enough for my light to medium use, and doesn't take
modifying a printer. But I think our current ideas on that will coexist with
normal printing now, so if the testing works it'll be worth finding and setting
up one printer that can print fine on paper and also straight on copper board.

Alan

ok, I got some of the office max photo paper. so far, with three
tests, I'm underwhelmed. I think it might require a higher
temperature - the toner was staying with the paper in places. This
is at the same temp setting that I use for magazine paper. That
suprises me - I expected the toner to melt at the same point and
adhere to the copper, regardless of the paper. I'll try again
tomorrow when my acetone induced fog clears. lol

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Phil wrote:
>
> > thanks. here's the state of my "operations":
> >
> > paper: I'm using magazine semi-glossy. I'll try some of the
coated
> > inkjet paper. I did have a couple of sheets that I used a while
ago
> > and think it had the same problem but I could be misremembering
as I
> > was fussing with learning the process. by the way, passing the
paper
> > though the copier multiple times to increase the amount of fusing
> > seems to have no effect. it does come out hot so I know its
> > getting "cooked".
> >
> > toner density: I've played with this a lot. really cranked it
down
> > and even at super light settings I am seeing the blotchiness
along
> > with complete drop out due to too little toner. In general, I
keep
> > it on the light side.
> >
> > heat: I think I've got this right as i started high and kept
> > dropping it until the toner was not adhering, then kicked it up a
> > bit. I'm getting good aherence. Using the aluminum sheet metal
seems
> > to improve the uniformity of the heating but there is still some
> > blotchiness.
> >
> > pressure: I still think this, along with uneven heating, is part
of
> > my problem. Its hard for me to control which is why I thought
the
> > metal plates would do a more even/uniform job.
> >
> > I'm not going to obsess over this blotchiness as it doesn't keep
the
> > board from being usable, it just doesn't look super clean. I'll
keep
> > at it so Me Etch Pretty, Someday.
> >
>
>
> http://www.jetprintphoto.com/c/graphicgloss.asp
>
> Try this, or find the Office Max Hammermill equivalent since
this is also a
> Hammermill paper. It has a good coating, and a paper sheet. I
think Office Max
> just bypassed JetPrint and bought their paper direct to make a bit
more money.
>
> Note that magazine paper is very thin and dense, and most has a
solid
> coating. You will easily get the smashing of toner as you're
getting, there is
> no where for the toner to go but out. There are some who swear by
the magazine
> paper mainly because it's free, but they also tend to swear you
must use a
> laminator etc to get good results. You can get great results from
this paper
> without anything else being special. And the extra fusing is to
keep the
> coating from this type paper from sticking, I wouldn't expect it to
do much for
> magazine paper. I'd assumed you were already using good paper, you
should try
> some just to understand the difference in quality and ease. Even
if you can
> live with the magazine quality for now you should see this so you
know you can
> step up if you need to later. You'll spend far more time trying to
make the
> magazine paper process good than you will just buying the 50 cents
a page paper.
> And the 20 pages in the pack for $10 lasts a good while if you're
judicious
> and print tests on normal paper first etc.
>
> Pressure is the problem, but you'll never be able to get
it 'right' with such
> a solid dense paper. You may find a mag with a thicker softer
paper, but
> they're few and far between since transport bulk dictates that thin
highly
> compressed paper is better for a mag. For contrast I can barely
make my prints
> smash at all or have uneven results, even with intentional wide
variations in
> pressure. This type paper is your limiting factor, not that you
don't have
> superhuman or mechanical control over the pressure.
>
> A few sheets of normal paper behind may mitigate some of this.
But even then
> the coating on the inkjet papers is a bit different and seperates
from the
> looser page better. My prints leave the coating on the toner with
only a little
> of the page sticking in the coating, and the extra coating tears
right at the
> trace edges, and the resulting transfers are nearly perfect, even
the holes are
> left clear even with almost all the coating sticking on the toner.
I don't
> think you could get that kind of coating seperation with the highly
compressed
> tight bonding of the magazine coating and page.
>
> Actually I'll have to try some different magazines and see if
there's
> anything out there that's as good. Free paper would be good. But
from how most
> everyone using it says lamination is absolutely critical and
knowing the basic
> construction of most pages I don't really expect to find it, but
worth checking.
> Using this paper and fusing an extra time or two so the unprinted
coating is
> dried better and won't stick are almost my whole process, and hard
to consider
> that a drawback since the paper and printer do all the work. After
that the
> ironing etc is all very simple, instead of having to get it exactly
right it's
> almost impossible to go wrong.
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/alantak69
>
> Look in PCB, this was a rush job since I expected to have to
clean it up and
> it was just a proto board anyway, so was going to have wire jumpers
etc. Even
> with hardly ironing so a couple small pieces didn't stick, it came
out nearly
> perfect. Note the second photo, smooth even fuzz almost
everywhere, but almost
> no holes were covered so the copper was properly exposed for etch,
and only a
> couple had to be picked at by hand. Little secondary touch up or
handling
> required. Note the first pic, you can see the image in the coating
on the page
> since the coating seperation was so clean. I only spent about two
minutes doing
> the ironing, a little bit more would have likely gotten a perfect
transfer. The
> route through the pins wasn't smashing, I had it drawn a bit wide
in Eagle but
> it was still not touching and worked perfectly. While the pics are
a bit fuzzy
> from being close in, the trace edges were sharp. If your results
aren't equally
> easy and painless with just an iron by hand, maybe this will let
you see it's
> likely your choice of paper. It's hard for what I'm doing to even
mess up. The
> stepper board in the other album was a much earlier board, before I
knew to fuse
> extra and clean the copper better with acetone. Still came out
well, but took a
> lot more hand work since the coating stuck much more. That's what
the extra
> fusing is for, almost totally eliminates any unprinted coating
sticking with
> this easily seperated coating.
>
>
> Bit of a read but hopefully this will help you bypass the idea
that you need
> to do a lot of work on heat and pressure, and get you to try some
other ideas
> with a better paper. It's much easier than fixing the process with
the paper
> you're using right now, and well worth the 50 cents a page when
printing boards
> to make everything else much less critical.
>
> It's even hard for me to really work on the print to copper idea
too hard,
> this really is easy enough for my light to medium use, and doesn't
take
> modifying a printer. But I think our current ideas on that will
coexist with
> normal printing now, so if the testing works it'll be worth finding
and setting
> up one printer that can print fine on paper and also straight on
copper board.
>
> Alan

I use the MAX Bright 94 brightness, and so far 5 out of 5 perfect
transfers.It's not in the "photo" paper section, It's a ream of 500 sheets
for like $4.00 in the regular type papers section, There are higher
brightness levels, but this one seems to work, with a laminator and Lexmark
Optra R with 3rd party toner anyway

JT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil" <phil1960us@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:30 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT experiment


> ok, I got some of the office max photo paper. so far, with three
> tests, I'm underwhelmed. I think it might require a higher
> temperature - the toner was staying with the paper in places. This
> is at the same temp setting that I use for magazine paper. That
> suprises me - I expected the toner to melt at the same point and
> adhere to the copper, regardless of the paper. I'll try again
> tomorrow when my acetone induced fog clears. lol
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> > Phil wrote:
> >
> > > thanks. here's the state of my "operations":
> > >
> > > paper: I'm using magazine semi-glossy. I'll try some of the
> coated
> > > inkjet paper. I did have a couple of sheets that I used a while
> ago
> > > and think it had the same problem but I could be misremembering
> as I
> > > was fussing with learning the process. by the way, passing the
> paper
> > > though the copier multiple times to increase the amount of fusing
> > > seems to have no effect. it does come out hot so I know its
> > > getting "cooked".
> > >
> > > toner density: I've played with this a lot. really cranked it
> down
> > > and even at super light settings I am seeing the blotchiness
> along
> > > with complete drop out due to too little toner. In general, I
> keep
> > > it on the light side.
> > >
> > > heat: I think I've got this right as i started high and kept
> > > dropping it until the toner was not adhering, then kicked it up a
> > > bit. I'm getting good aherence. Using the aluminum sheet metal
> seems
> > > to improve the uniformity of the heating but there is still some
> > > blotchiness.
> > >
> > > pressure: I still think this, along with uneven heating, is part
> of
> > > my problem. Its hard for me to control which is why I thought
> the
> > > metal plates would do a more even/uniform job.
> > >
> > > I'm not going to obsess over this blotchiness as it doesn't keep
> the
> > > board from being usable, it just doesn't look super clean. I'll
> keep
> > > at it so Me Etch Pretty, Someday.
> > >
> >
> >
> > http://www.jetprintphoto.com/c/graphicgloss.asp
> >
> > Try this, or find the Office Max Hammermill equivalent since
> this is also a
> > Hammermill paper. It has a good coating, and a paper sheet. I
> think Office Max
> > just bypassed JetPrint and bought their paper direct to make a bit
> more money.
> >
> > Note that magazine paper is very thin and dense, and most has a
> solid
> > coating. You will easily get the smashing of toner as you're
> getting, there is
> > no where for the toner to go but out. There are some who swear by
> the magazine
> > paper mainly because it's free, but they also tend to swear you
> must use a
> > laminator etc to get good results. You can get great results from
> this paper
> > without anything else being special. And the extra fusing is to
> keep the
> > coating from this type paper from sticking, I wouldn't expect it to
> do much for
> > magazine paper. I'd assumed you were already using good paper, you
> should try
> > some just to understand the difference in quality and ease. Even
> if you can
> > live with the magazine quality for now you should see this so you
> know you can
> > step up if you need to later. You'll spend far more time trying to
> make the
> > magazine paper process good than you will just buying the 50 cents
> a page paper.
> > And the 20 pages in the pack for $10 lasts a good while if you're
> judicious
> > and print tests on normal paper first etc.
> >
> > Pressure is the problem, but you'll never be able to get
> it 'right' with such
> > a solid dense paper. You may find a mag with a thicker softer
> paper, but
> > they're few and far between since transport bulk dictates that thin
> highly
> > compressed paper is better for a mag. For contrast I can barely
> make my prints
> > smash at all or have uneven results, even with intentional wide
> variations in
> > pressure. This type paper is your limiting factor, not that you
> don't have
> > superhuman or mechanical control over the pressure.
> >
> > A few sheets of normal paper behind may mitigate some of this.
> But even then
> > the coating on the inkjet papers is a bit different and seperates
> from the
> > looser page better. My prints leave the coating on the toner with
> only a little
> > of the page sticking in the coating, and the extra coating tears
> right at the
> > trace edges, and the resulting transfers are nearly perfect, even
> the holes are
> > left clear even with almost all the coating sticking on the toner.
> I don't
> > think you could get that kind of coating seperation with the highly
> compressed
> > tight bonding of the magazine coating and page.
> >
> > Actually I'll have to try some different magazines and see if
> there's
> > anything out there that's as good. Free paper would be good. But
> from how most
> > everyone using it says lamination is absolutely critical and
> knowing the basic
> > construction of most pages I don't really expect to find it, but
> worth checking.
> > Using this paper and fusing an extra time or two so the unprinted
> coating is
> > dried better and won't stick are almost my whole process, and hard
> to consider
> > that a drawback since the paper and printer do all the work. After
> that the
> > ironing etc is all very simple, instead of having to get it exactly
> right it's
> > almost impossible to go wrong.
> >
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/alantak69
> >
> > Look in PCB, this was a rush job since I expected to have to
> clean it up and
> > it was just a proto board anyway, so was going to have wire jumpers
> etc. Even
> > with hardly ironing so a couple small pieces didn't stick, it came
> out nearly
> > perfect. Note the second photo, smooth even fuzz almost
> everywhere, but almost
> > no holes were covered so the copper was properly exposed for etch,
> and only a
> > couple had to be picked at by hand. Little secondary touch up or
> handling
> > required. Note the first pic, you can see the image in the coating
> on the page
> > since the coating seperation was so clean. I only spent about two
> minutes doing
> > the ironing, a little bit more would have likely gotten a perfect
> transfer. The
> > route through the pins wasn't smashing, I had it drawn a bit wide
> in Eagle but
> > it was still not touching and worked perfectly. While the pics are
> a bit fuzzy
> > from being close in, the trace edges were sharp. If your results
> aren't equally
> > easy and painless with just an iron by hand, maybe this will let
> you see it's
> > likely your choice of paper. It's hard for what I'm doing to even
> mess up. The
> > stepper board in the other album was a much earlier board, before I
> knew to fuse
> > extra and clean the copper better with acetone. Still came out
> well, but took a
> > lot more hand work since the coating stuck much more. That's what
> the extra
> > fusing is for, almost totally eliminates any unprinted coating
> sticking with
> > this easily seperated coating.
> >
> >
> > Bit of a read but hopefully this will help you bypass the idea
> that you need
> > to do a lot of work on heat and pressure, and get you to try some
> other ideas
> > with a better paper. It's much easier than fixing the process with
> the paper
> > you're using right now, and well worth the 50 cents a page when
> printing boards
> > to make everything else much less critical.
> >
> > It's even hard for me to really work on the print to copper idea
> too hard,
> > this really is easy enough for my light to medium use, and doesn't
> take
> > modifying a printer. But I think our current ideas on that will
> coexist with
> > normal printing now, so if the testing works it'll be worth finding
> and setting
> > up one printer that can print fine on paper and also straight on
> copper board.
> >
> > Alan
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:27:54 -0500, Jeremy Taylor <jt@...> wrote:

> I use the MAX Bright 94 brightness, and so far 5 out of 5 perfect
> transfers.


> It's not in the "photo" paper section,

Well, it shoud go there...

DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT !!!!!!!!

I created the database expecially for you ;-)



please, please, please add it.
in a month it will be forgotten and you either have to answer again,
or if you don't do that nobody will know.

Please also add the Optra R.


Thanks for all who have contributed in creating the database so far.
i think it is very important to make such a list, and it is a better
overview than searching the archives (which is close to impossible).

Maybe one day we have so many entrys that it is a known working paper from
every
country in there.

I know the results differ from person to person, and that they are very
subjective.
There is no easy objective way to evaluate the results, and it is better
to know
"damn i tried everything and this paper doesn't work - but my process works
with another paper good" than nothing.

Hopefully this will save us some time in the future...

thanks

Stefan

Short note:

please try to make sure that you state who you are in the database.
use your email, or gruop username (which one can use to find you).

This allows for questions, it is not visible who wrote the entry.

nothing against not giving your email there (spam..) but use a
distinct name, which you use in your posts, then you are easily found
with the search function in the archives.


thanks

Stefan

Phil wrote:

> ok, I got some of the office max photo paper. so far, with three
> tests, I'm underwhelmed. I think it might require a higher
> temperature - the toner was staying with the paper in places. This
> is at the same temp setting that I use for magazine paper. That
> suprises me - I expected the toner to melt at the same point and
> adhere to the copper, regardless of the paper. I'll try again
> tomorrow when my acetone induced fog clears. lol
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
>

Ack, I was expecting to have a bit more discussion on the paper before you
got some lol! :) I should have pointed out earlier there are a lot of papers,
as in:

http://www.jetprintphoto.com/c/index.asp

The one I use is in the lower left, the purple one. The green one in the
upper right is one of the closest to it in paper construction, but even it gives
noticably different results. Easier seperation and peel, but more pinholes etc.
So minor seeming differences can affect the results.

Still, you should get a reasonable result with almost any of those papers,
even if it's more or less perfect. And the Office Max products are coming out
of the same plants just with a different printed jacket, so has to be something
similar.

And yep you'll need more heat. With magazine paper, you have a thin
compressed paper with solid coating. Ends up being basically solid coating
pressed through and through, with just some paper fibers in the middle to hold
things together. Solid like that conducts heat very well. Instead you now have
a thin solid coating, but with normal paper backing which is much more
insualative. You won't get the near instant heat transfer that you did before,
the other side of the page will likely be cooler than the iron for quite some
time as it heats up. Also with the near solid page before your pressure may
have been doing a lot of the transfer, along with why you were getting the
mashing. Pressure will be moderated a bit more with the thicker paper, so you
have to get good heat to the other side of the page and let heat do more of the
transfer. The toner does still melt at the same temps, it'll just have a bit
slower curve getting the heat through the paper, and since the pressure is a bit
more moderated it can't be rushed with more pressure, which you may have been
doing inadvertently with the mag paper. This will take a bit more time to get
to the 160 or 180 most toner melts at.

I just set my iron to hottest, and then on a smaller board press the iron on
for a few minutes moving around now and then. Not the most pressure I could,
but probably 10 ot 20 lbs or so at least for a while during the ironing. I do
it on a board on the carpet, with a couple paper towels under the PCB to help
keep it from sliding so much with the slick board. At the beginning pressure
doesn't matter so much, you're still heating up the paper and board etc and the
toner isn't melted. Cut your board down first so there's less copper to conduct
heat away if you're not already. Try 4 or 5 minutes with a hot iron, should be
extra but should at least make sure you at least get a reasonable transfer to
start with. After a point the toner was already transferred, and you're mashing
it back into the paper. But a little longer to start with and then shorten as
you get a feel for things will probably do better than too little. And yep
sounds like you had it a bit too short from your magazine paper experience.

Also note with the magazine paper being solid and slick you can get away with
just a straight peel after cooling, so you may not have even been wetting it so
not sure if you were or not. With this, wait a few minutes for the board to
cool a bit so the toner is back below melt temp. I tend to blow on it or wave
it around a bit to help speed this up. Then wet with medium hot water for a few
minutes (less thermal shock so maybe less forces on the toner, the paper will
shrivel a bit and be putting some sideways forces though), fill the sink a bit
and let it soak. Then I run cold over it a little bit to solidify things, then
peel under warm. As you're peeling have the water hitting the surface between
the board and paper, to soften things if there were any dry spots from air
bubbles etc. I used to soak it for a long time, but have found that's not
necessary now, but it needs the extra fusing part so the unprinted coating
doesn't stick during the peel. Without that even soaking for 24 hours wasn't
enough to keep a lot of the coating from sticking in the holes and between
traces. The extra fusing seems to bake the coating a bit, and then it doesn't
stick during the ironing part.

And LOL yes acetone is magic stuff. Try using a plastic pad and alcohol to
clean the toner from a board if you haven't already, it'll give you a whole new
level of appreciation for what a joy acetone is to use. Acetone converts what
seems like hours into just seconds, who knew it was a time machine component?

Alan

> And LOL yes acetone is magic stuff. Try using a plastic pad and
> alcohol to
> clean the toner from a board if you haven't already, it'll give you a
> whole new
> level of appreciation for what a joy acetone is to use. Acetone
> converts what
> seems like hours into just seconds, who knew it was a time machine
> component?
>
> Alan
>

If you really think so...

a) it is absorbed through the skin (even through some gloves) and poisonous
b) it evaporates very quickly
c) it attacks plastic
d) it evaporates out of the closed can (the can it was sold in !!!)
e) it is not too cheap
f) we have seen at least one case where the acetone attacked the epoxy
and the toner rubbed in smearing it all over.

I use simple laquer thinner.
not quite as fast with evaporation, much cheaper, maybe as toxic, i dunno
(but the warnings
are less).
it still attacks plastic (take alcohol if you need to prevent that - but
remember the toner is plastic).

it has never attacked the epoxy so far.


I liked acetone very much too in the past.
but now my opinion is different - at that price it simply is not
allowed to evaporate out of a properly closed tin.


alcohol is no good in rubbing off toner - because it doesn't attack
plastic.
i tried it - it was close to rubbing with water.

really do try paint thinner, it is working ok....


another hint:
i scrape off my toner with a flat edge.
like when the board doesn't work out right after fusing you can scrape it
off all at once.

I only scrape it off a completed board if the traces are not too thin, but
with 0.5mm it hasn't
taken the trace with it.

this is much quicker than all the rubbing (but you might need a light
sweep over it if you miss
some tiny bits with scraping)

just another opinion...

ST

I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot so its a
truely minimal expense. I think its even cheaper in gal quantities.
I've used maybe 1/4 of it and washed about 20 boards. So it costs
litterally pennies per washing. I just use a thin dribble on the
board and scrub with an old toothbrush. voila! clean and ready to
scrub for the next test run.

I'm really beginning to appreciate how much variability paper imparts
to the process.

Alan, I hear your point on the difficulty of getting pressure right
but I'm even more convinced that its the critical factor. Laminators
will give even pressure so that's a good reason to get one. maybe
I'll break down and buy one...

By the way, are people preheating their boards? I put them in the
oven at 250 F to dry them out and then go straight to the transfer
stage.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>
> > And LOL yes acetone is magic stuff. Try using a plastic pad

and

> > alcohol to
> > clean the toner from a board if you haven't already, it'll give

you a

> > whole new
> > level of appreciation for what a joy acetone is to use. Acetone
> > converts what
> > seems like hours into just seconds, who knew it was a time

machine

> > component?
> >
> > Alan
> >
>
> If you really think so...
>
> a) it is absorbed through the skin (even through some gloves) and

poisonous

> b) it evaporates very quickly
> c) it attacks plastic
> d) it evaporates out of the closed can (the can it was sold in !!!)
> e) it is not too cheap
> f) we have seen at least one case where the acetone attacked the

epoxy

> and the toner rubbed in smearing it all over.
>
> I use simple laquer thinner.
> not quite as fast with evaporation, much cheaper, maybe as toxic, i

dunno

> (but the warnings
> are less).
> it still attacks plastic (take alcohol if you need to prevent that -

but

> remember the toner is plastic).
>
> it has never attacked the epoxy so far.
>
>
> I liked acetone very much too in the past.
> but now my opinion is different - at that price it simply is not
> allowed to evaporate out of a properly closed tin.
>
>
> alcohol is no good in rubbing off toner - because it doesn't attack
> plastic.
> i tried it - it was close to rubbing with water.
>
> really do try paint thinner, it is working ok....
>
>
> another hint:
> i scrape off my toner with a flat edge.
> like when the board doesn't work out right after fusing you can

scrape it

> off all at once.
>
> I only scrape it off a completed board if the traces are not too

thin, but

> with 0.5mm it hasn't
> taken the trace with it.
>
> this is much quicker than all the rubbing (but you might need a

light

> sweep over it if you miss
> some tiny bits with scraping)
>
> just another opinion...
>
> ST

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:23:47 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot

Well then i REALLY have to change my supplier ;-)

it was more like 10eur / 500ml


How is cour can? sheet metal with a plastic snap lid?
I was really upset when this bottle was suddenly empty.
(i had kept a small glass bottle with a rubber lid in a drawer
in close reach, which was also dried out....)

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:23:47 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:
>
>
>>I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot
>
>
> Well then i REALLY have to change my supplier ;-)
>
> it was more like 10eur / 500ml
>
>
> How is cour can? sheet metal with a plastic snap lid?
> I was really upset when this bottle was suddenly empty.
> (i had kept a small glass bottle with a rubber lid in a drawer
> in close reach, which was also dried out....)
>
> ST

Well it's what's in most nail polish, so it isn't that immediately deadly,
and they are also usually plastic bottles but it's high density plastic, other
plastics may not hold it as well. Most hardware shop types are in a metal can
with metal lid, and thin paper or plastic for the seal. Note that the smaller
cans are often nearly the cost of a larger can, and your 500ml bottle may well
have been marketed for special use etc and been extra expensive. Or could be
extra taxes etc for Europe, no telling but check your hardware with the paint
thinners etc. It's usually a bit cheaper even than other thinners in the US if
you find the right places.

I just use it, it seems to be a bit easier than laq thinner and I just
minimize the exposure and contact. Doesn't matter to me much if it stains the
board a bit, and it's not there long enough to really be soaking deep into the
epoxy etc so hard to see any possible real harm from it, the traces cover the
adhesives for the most part etc. Haven't had any problems that would drive me
to something else at all.

Alan

yes. that sounds like the container I have. You use a screw driver
to priy it open. Its the same as the other quart containers for
solvents in the store. It may be that your cap got dented when you
resealed it, thus ruining the seal. Easy enough to do. I've had it
about 3 months so I think the cap is pretty tight.

check stores that carry paint or adhesives for best prices. I found
some in a drug store but they wanted a like 7$ for about 2 ounces
(about 60 mL) then went to the hardware store.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:23:47 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>
> > I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot
>
> Well then i REALLY have to change my supplier ;-)
>
> it was more like 10eur / 500ml
>
>
> How is cour can? sheet metal with a plastic snap lid?
> I was really upset when this bottle was suddenly empty.
> (i had kept a small glass bottle with a rubber lid in a drawer
> in close reach, which was also dried out....)
>
> ST

Phil wrote:

> I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot so its a
> truely minimal expense. I think its even cheaper in gal quantities.
> I've used maybe 1/4 of it and washed about 20 boards. So it costs
> litterally pennies per washing. I just use a thin dribble on the
> board and scrub with an old toothbrush. voila! clean and ready to
> scrub for the next test run.
>
> I'm really beginning to appreciate how much variability paper imparts
> to the process.
>
> Alan, I hear your point on the difficulty of getting pressure right
> but I'm even more convinced that its the critical factor. Laminators
> will give even pressure so that's a good reason to get one. maybe
> I'll break down and buy one...

No, you shouldn't need one. With magazine paper you may as well have been
printing on solid acetate or glass. Toner on glass or acetate and press against
copper and of course the toner is going to smash. With this paper you have some
thickness, the toner and coating bond and are pushed into the paper more. I can
look at the printed page and see that the toner is more pushed into the paper
which it's not on acetate etc, it's basically flat with the unprinted coating.
This helps lock things together and the toner doesn't smash when ironing. I was
just giving a reasonable example, I just dial my arm to 'plenty' and have no
problems. I could probably do 10 pounds, or do 50 without significant spreading
of the toner, it is non-critical. It is so easy the thought of getting a
laminator never ever enters my head, no need for extra hassle or equipment
sitting around for little reason when this works great. The 50 cent paper isn't
enough to drive me to wanting one for cheap or free paper for moderate use. My
point on difficulty getting the pressure right was for the magazine paper. It
is easy or more correctly doesn't matter so much with these other papers, the
main reason to use them is to get good prints easily without extra equipment.

It did take some experimentation for me to start getting an initial feel for
it, but it'll come fast. And the extra fusing makes it even easier than when I
started without that. But you're fighting other habits from the other paper,
may take you a few more tries to be getting the idea. This takes more heat and
a little more time, and moderate pressure. Tack the corner down and iron the
rest on. Then put the iron on and heat things up, just with light pressure for
2-3 minutes for heating up. Then with hard as you can being full, give about
1/2 to 2/3 full pressure for 30 seconds or so, then move the iron around some
pressing a bit, then another 30 seconds or so good pressure. Then keep 1/2 on
for another 2-3 minutes, that should be enough. This should really be a bit
overkill for a small board, but enough to make sure you get an ok transfer, you
can cut the last heating time down to whatever works after you get a good
transfer or two. And with a good transfer you should notice that the traces are
all about even, when you of course still put more pressure in some places than
others. This paper should be a lot less sensitive to exactly how much pressure
was where as long as you got at least enough heat and pressure to get the
bonding everywhere. I have to go out of my way and actually try to press really
hard in one spot to get any smashing of the toner.

Also note that your toner could easily be 20 degress off from mine in melt
temperature. So I'm describing what works well for me, you may have to vary it
a little to get good results for you. Should be doable though the temperature
difference isn't that extreme. Different toners can be very different overall
though not just temp, but the paper should help mitigate that.

>
> By the way, are people preheating their boards? I put them in the
> oven at 250 F to dry them out and then go straight to the transfer
> stage.
>

I tried it some, but tend to just iron a minute longer or two now. Doesn't
seem to make too much difference either way. It's technically better, since you
for sure won't have water trapped and making steam to keep the toner from
sticking. But I don't get much of that type of problem so don't bother with the
oven. I think hair drying the board a bit after the final wash probably does
about as well.

Alan

I tried this using a pizza stone for higher energy accumulation.
Nada. There is something in the 'massaging' and that something being
a mix of temp and force pers iron's surface. I still believe that TT
is a great method for something simple, wide and small. To have real
quality one following choices:

1. Inkjet w/conductive ink. SOBs already make that ink but I found
out that they are making machines that go with it. This will be the
future of PCB mfr-ing.
2. I won't even mention isolation milling with CNC machines (sorry
Dave...) because of dust and freaking noise.
3. Laser--- I read with interest couple of posts on the subject... if
that works out then it is a great technology.
4. And the winner is: PHOTO. There is no substitute for a UV
exposure. But to have a quality product one needs an extensive
hardware setup.

I saw today a machine that is used to print images on CD/DVDs. Cost
was more than 100k and when asked about my cost to order a volume,
teh answer was: er...60cents per disk. Regretfully they cannot print
larger than disk.

5. I've seen a laser etching in action and have to admit that it is
an awsome technology. But... the laser cost around 100k, all the
safety precautions but quality was stunning.

so many words for today. Back to my project perfecting the photo
imaging.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
wrote:

> I just had an idea, how about instead of the cloths iron use a

couple of

> fairly thick (0.25-0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove top.

With

> the paper and board sandwiched to provide the pressure, this could

be

> set up as you want it, then 'cooked'. After a little

experimentation you

> could accurately see how much pressure is needed (by varying the

weight

> of the top plate) I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess work
> inherent with the iron.
>
> Would this work?
> --
> Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>

Phil,

acetone scares me. It aromatic, carcinogenic and scary stuff. If I
may suggest-stay away from it. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:23:47 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot
> >
> >
> > Well then i REALLY have to change my supplier ;-)
> >
> > it was more like 10eur / 500ml
> >
> >
> > How is cour can? sheet metal with a plastic snap lid?
> > I was really upset when this bottle was suddenly empty.
> > (i had kept a small glass bottle with a rubber lid in a drawer
> > in close reach, which was also dried out....)
> >
> > ST
>
> Well it's what's in most nail polish, so it isn't that
immediately deadly,
> and they are also usually plastic bottles but it's high density
plastic, other
> plastics may not hold it as well. Most hardware shop types are in
a metal can
> with metal lid, and thin paper or plastic for the seal. Note that
the smaller
> cans are often nearly the cost of a larger can, and your 500ml
bottle may well
> have been marketed for special use etc and been extra expensive.
Or could be
> extra taxes etc for Europe, no telling but check your hardware with
the paint
> thinners etc. It's usually a bit cheaper even than other thinners
in the US if
> you find the right places.
>
> I just use it, it seems to be a bit easier than laq thinner and
I just
> minimize the exposure and contact. Doesn't matter to me much if it
stains the
> board a bit, and it's not there long enough to really be soaking
deep into the
> epoxy etc so hard to see any possible real harm from it, the traces
cover the
> adhesives for the most part etc. Haven't had any problems that
would drive me
> to something else at all.
>
> Alan

So is gasoline, the moral of the story is know what you're handling, evaluate the risk against the benefits and take the proper precautions.

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: mikezcnc
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:15 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT experiment


Phil,

acetone scares me. It aromatic, carcinogenic and scary stuff. If I
may suggest-stay away from it. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:23:47 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I get a quart of acetone for like $2.50 from home depot
> >
> >
> > Well then i REALLY have to change my supplier ;-)
> >
> > it was more like 10eur / 500ml
> >
> >
> > How is cour can? sheet metal with a plastic snap lid?
> > I was really upset when this bottle was suddenly empty.
> > (i had kept a small glass bottle with a rubber lid in a drawer
> > in close reach, which was also dried out....)
> >
> > ST
>
> Well it's what's in most nail polish, so it isn't that
immediately deadly,
> and they are also usually plastic bottles but it's high density
plastic, other
> plastics may not hold it as well. Most hardware shop types are in
a metal can
> with metal lid, and thin paper or plastic for the seal. Note that
the smaller
> cans are often nearly the cost of a larger can, and your 500ml
bottle may well
> have been marketed for special use etc and been extra expensive.
Or could be
> extra taxes etc for Europe, no telling but check your hardware with
the paint
> thinners etc. It's usually a bit cheaper even than other thinners
in the US if
> you find the right places.
>
> I just use it, it seems to be a bit easier than laq thinner and
I just
> minimize the exposure and contact. Doesn't matter to me much if it
stains the
> board a bit, and it's not there long enough to really be soaking
deep into the
> epoxy etc so hard to see any possible real harm from it, the traces
cover the
> adhesives for the most part etc. Haven't had any problems that
would drive me
> to something else at all.
>
> Alan



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pro photo systems use laser plotters with 24,000 dpi., and film you need a
darkroom for.
most ink based systems that I have seen are for SMD, reflow process.
I do not believe that silver conductive ink will be the future of pro etch
resist, simply do to the cost of silver.
IMO, Plating Etch resist is the 100% reliable method, with photoresist only
acting like a plate resist, the plate then becomes the etch resist. More
expensive than plain Photo etch, and WAY more expensive than TT, my total
Plating (copper/tin)setup was about $500 with the capacity for 6" X6" dual
sided boards((2.5Gallons), and 100ft roll of photomask. -
I still prefer TT for single sided - non commercial - boards.. just for the
quickness, cheapness and simplicity.

I'm following the Thinktink.com GreenCirc process, but I bought my plating
equip from Caswellplating.com

If you think Acetone is bad, I use 98.08% pure sulfuric acid and 50%
hydrogen peroxide.
Gloves, goggles, ventilation, and patience -- all is well.
JT

----- Original Message -----
From: "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:13 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Another TT idea


> I tried this using a pizza stone for higher energy accumulation.
> Nada. There is something in the 'massaging' and that something being
> a mix of temp and force pers iron's surface. I still believe that TT
> is a great method for something simple, wide and small. To have real
> quality one following choices:
>
> 1. Inkjet w/conductive ink. SOBs already make that ink but I found
> out that they are making machines that go with it. This will be the
> future of PCB mfr-ing.
> 2. I won't even mention isolation milling with CNC machines (sorry
> Dave...) because of dust and freaking noise.
> 3. Laser--- I read with interest couple of posts on the subject... if
> that works out then it is a great technology.
> 4. And the winner is: PHOTO. There is no substitute for a UV
> exposure. But to have a quality product one needs an extensive
> hardware setup.
>
> I saw today a machine that is used to print images on CD/DVDs. Cost
> was more than 100k and when asked about my cost to order a volume,
> teh answer was: er...60cents per disk. Regretfully they cannot print
> larger than disk.
>
> 5. I've seen a laser etching in action and have to admit that it is
> an awsome technology. But... the laser cost around 100k, all the
> safety precautions but quality was stunning.
>
> so many words for today. Back to my project perfecting the photo
> imaging.
>
> Mike
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
> wrote:
> > I just had an idea, how about instead of the cloths iron use a
> couple of
> > fairly thick (0.25-0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove top.
> With
> > the paper and board sandwiched to provide the pressure, this could
> be
> > set up as you want it, then 'cooked'. After a little
> experimentation you
> > could accurately see how much pressure is needed (by varying the
> weight
> > of the top plate) I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess work
> > inherent with the iron.
> >
> > Would this work?
> > --
> > Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

I am still interested in an older thread on using inkjet printers to
directly print resist. I think the thread just died out but it sure
seems to me that if we could find the right kind of ink, it ought be
a really great way to get very quality/repeatable etch masks on
copper. I would not at all mourn the passing of the transfer
process...

I've got an old inkjet gathering dust that I may save from my
robotics experiments...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> I tried this using a pizza stone for higher energy accumulation.
> Nada. There is something in the 'massaging' and that something
being
> a mix of temp and force pers iron's surface. I still believe that
TT
> is a great method for something simple, wide and small. To have
real
> quality one following choices:
>
> 1. Inkjet w/conductive ink. SOBs already make that ink but I found
> out that they are making machines that go with it. This will be the
> future of PCB mfr-ing.
> 2. I won't even mention isolation milling with CNC machines (sorry
> Dave...) because of dust and freaking noise.
> 3. Laser--- I read with interest couple of posts on the subject...
if
> that works out then it is a great technology.
> 4. And the winner is: PHOTO. There is no substitute for a UV
> exposure. But to have a quality product one needs an extensive
> hardware setup.
>
> I saw today a machine that is used to print images on CD/DVDs. Cost
> was more than 100k and when asked about my cost to order a volume,
> teh answer was: er...60cents per disk. Regretfully they cannot
print
> larger than disk.
>
> 5. I've seen a laser etching in action and have to admit that it is
> an awsome technology. But... the laser cost around 100k, all the
> safety precautions but quality was stunning.
>
> so many words for today. Back to my project perfecting the photo
> imaging.
>
> Mike
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>
> wrote:
> > I just had an idea, how about instead of the cloths iron use a
> couple of
> > fairly thick (0.25-0.5) steel plates, and put it on the stove
top.
> With
> > the paper and board sandwiched to provide the pressure, this
could
> be
> > set up as you want it, then 'cooked'. After a little
> experimentation you
> > could accurately see how much pressure is needed (by varying the
> weight
> > of the top plate) I think it would eliminate a lot of the guess
work
> > inherent with the iron.
> >
> > Would this work?
> > --
> > Anthony Toft <toftat@c...>

not to mention flamable and probably politically incorrect. but then
my wife hasn't kick off and she puts polish on in a tiny bathroom, no
fan running. Oh, yeah, and polish remover - OMG, the whole places
stinks when she does that.

given the length of exposure I have, I'll take my chances.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Phil,
>
> acetone scares me. It aromatic, carcinogenic and scary stuff. If I
> may suggest-stay away from it. Mike
>

mikezcnc wrote:

>
> 1. Inkjet w/conductive ink. SOBs already make that ink but I found
> out that they are making machines that go with it. This will be the
> future of PCB mfr-ing.

Not only that, but the entire product or all but the battery etc. As in
print the plastic case, print the traces, and print the components all as one
solid 3D object. Polymer based transistors etc are slower and much larger than
silicon, but still it'll end up working for a lot of simpler devices.

Alan

oh yes phil. i am still working on getting an ink jet
to print on a pcb. will try every thing from bees wax
to beer, dont think a bubble jet(thermal) will work,
am working on trying a piezo print head now. if this
doesn work with all i can think of i will try an
impact printer if i can find a cheap one with flat bed
feed. will try to put some thing on the ribbon to
transfer to pcb.i have a cheap(small) thermal impact
printer coming,will try that maybe along the corbon
paper line, or coat paper with something to transfer
to pcb.
there has to be a (easier)better way than ironing.
mebo


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

I'm pretty ignorant on inkjet technology. why wont a bubble jet
work?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> oh yes phil. i am still working on getting an ink jet
> to print on a pcb. will try every thing from bees wax
> to beer, dont think a bubble jet(thermal) will work,
> am working on trying a piezo print head now. if this
> doesn work with all i can think of i will try an
> impact printer if i can find a cheap one with flat bed
> feed. will try to put some thing on the ribbon to
> transfer to pcb.i have a cheap(small) thermal impact
> printer coming,will try that maybe along the corbon
> paper line, or coat paper with something to transfer
> to pcb.
> there has to be a (easier)better way than ironing.
> mebo
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com

Please change the subject line and delete the irrelevant stuff. Or
just start a new thread. Searching the archives is difficult enough
without hijacked threads.

I think it was Stefan who tried this in an HP printer, but it's a
bubblejet and a bubblejet printer uses heat to vaporize some of the
solvent in the ink, which drives a blop of ink out of the print head.
He said it immediately clogged, so it probably hardened the Future
Floor polish that he tried.

I have an Epson 800 (black only model) that I intend to try as the
Epson printers use a piezo drive head. As this does -not- use heat, I
have hopes that it may work but I'm not holding my breath.

Of all the desktop printers, Epson is the only one that uses Piezo.
The rest use bubblejet.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> I am still interested in an older thread on using inkjet printers to
> directly print resist. I think the thread just died out but it sure
> seems to me that if we could find the right kind of ink, it ought be
> a really great way to get very quality/repeatable etch masks on
> copper. I would not at all mourn the passing of the transfer
> process...
>
> I've got an old inkjet gathering dust that I may save from my
> robotics experiments...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
wrote:

> Please change the subject line and delete the irrelevant stuff. Or
> just start a new thread. Searching the archives is difficult enough
> without hijacked threads.

UR right. sorry 'bout that. note that I created a new thread -
probably while you were typing that up...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus <mebo31@y...> wrote:

> oh yes phil. i am still working on getting an ink jet
> to print on a pcb. will try every thing from bees wax
> to beer, dont think a bubble jet(thermal) will work,
> am working on trying a piezo print head now. if this
> doesn work with all i can think of i will try an
> impact printer if i can find a cheap one with flat bed
> feed. will try to put some thing on the ribbon to
> transfer to pcb.i have a cheap(small) thermal impact
> printer coming,will try that maybe along the corbon
> paper line, or coat paper with something to transfer
> to pcb.
> there has to be a (easier)better way than ironing.
> mebo

What about those CD printers that use wax thermal ribbons?

Of course, you'd be limited to PCBs the size and shape of a CD, but
that would also mean cases for your project are cheap and easy to get.
;') Hey, why not, I've used cassette tape cases, soap dishes, and
small makeup cases for project boxes.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
> wrote:
> > Please change the subject line and delete the irrelevant stuff. Or
> > just start a new thread. Searching the archives is difficult enough
> > without hijacked threads.
>
> UR right. sorry 'bout that. note that I created a new thread -
> probably while you were typing that up...

;')

Steve

>
> What about those CD printers that use wax thermal ribbons?
>
> Of course, you'd be limited to PCBs the size and shape of a CD, but
> that would also mean cases for your project are cheap and easy to get.
> ;') Hey, why not, I've used cassette tape cases, soap dishes, and
> small makeup cases for project boxes.
>

The Alps printers are full page, discontinued but plenty of them kicking
around for decal use. I don't have the printer but have plenty of used ribbons
so will transfer a bit with an iron and see how well it works. Keeping the
multiple color registration was always a problem but wouldn't matter for just
printing resist. They are still $200 to $500 used though, they are one of only
a few printers that can print a solid white background so they're highly desired
for custom decal printing. Not to mention graphics like a resist will tend to
eat up the $6 ribbons in a hurry.

Alan

as mentioned, the bubble thermal jet has to heat the
ink to form a bubble(vapor bubble) whitch forces the
ink out the orfice. lots of stuff dont like the heat
and will dry up in your print head. a piezo uses a
crystal that swells when an electrial postive voltage
is applyed, then contracts when an negative voltage is
applyed, so you have a pumping action with the piezo
head with no heat. BUUUUT, the ink has to be the right
consistancy or it will not go through the ink
channels, or if to thin will flatten and spread when
the ink hits the pcb. as far as impact printing, the
head has either 9 or 24 pins that move out to strike
the ribbon and paper leaving the ink that is in the
ribbon on the paper. BUUUUT on impact you need a
straight through feed so the pcb will go through.
thermal impact printers use a heat sensitive paper,
when heated the paper turns black so when the hot
printer head pin hits the paper it leaves a blackened
dot on the paper. on this type you need straight
through feed also.one might coat some paper with
something that will melt and stay on the pcb, with the
paper taped over the pcb. among the four types of
printers there should be a etch resistance
substance(that will not wash off with water) that can
be transfered to the pcb. the big problem is finding
the right substance or mixed substances that will work
with one of the four types of printers.
mebo





--- Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> I'm pretty ignorant on inkjet technology. why wont
> a bubble jet
> work?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus
> <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> > oh yes phil. i am still working on getting an ink
> jet
> > to print on a pcb. will try every thing from bees
> wax
> > to beer, dont think a bubble jet(thermal) will
> work,
> > am working on trying a piezo print head now. if
> this
> > doesn work with all i can think of i will try an
> > impact printer if i can find a cheap one with flat
> bed
> > feed. will try to put some thing on the ribbon to
> > transfer to pcb.i have a cheap(small) thermal
> impact
> > printer coming,will try that maybe along the
> corbon
> > paper line, or coat paper with something to
> transfer
> > to pcb.
> > there has to be a (easier)better way than ironing.
> > mebo
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> faster
> > http://search.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:

> The Alps printers are full page, discontinued but plenty of them

kicking

> around for decal use.

Someone already tried. The heads are only designed to print onto paper
so they just don't put out enough heat, the copper sucks heat away to
quickly.

I figured a CD printer already has to handle a thick plastic CD, so
perhaps preheating the PCB might work in a CD printer.

Steve

Steve wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
>
>
>> The Alps printers are full page, discontinued but plenty of them
>
> kicking
>
>>around for decal use.
>
>
> Someone already tried. The heads are only designed to print onto paper
> so they just don't put out enough heat, the copper sucks heat away to
> quickly.

They do their metal foil well enough, but copper clad may be a bit much.

>
> I figured a CD printer already has to handle a thick plastic CD, so
> perhaps preheating the PCB might work in a CD printer.
>

Thickness isn't so much the issue as the heat then, and CD's will still be
much less conductive than the copper, so likely won't work. Still shouldn't
hurt to try it though.

Still I've just got to take some time and pull one of my lasers apart.
What's been discussed earlier has some reasonable chance of working, and the
results with a $100 or less used printer will be so good as to make worrying
with a different type printer a bit of a stretch. Nothing ink jet is likely to
work, the etchant will solve most anything water soluable and the non-water
based stuff will be too thick for the jets. And even if it works the wax ribbon
types tend to have rather high costs.

Alan

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 02:34:31 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> not to mention flamable and probably politically incorrect. but then
> my wife hasn't kick off and she puts polish on in a tiny bathroom, no
> fan running. Oh, yeah, and polish remover - OMG, the whole places
> stinks when she does that.
>
> given the length of exposure I have, I'll take my chances.
>

Maybe you could tell her you like your nails more without color,
then your headache would be a thing of the past.
and maybe you could get a free supply of acetone too (hehe).

Not married so maybe this is out of question, i dunno...

;-)

ST

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:35:38 -0500, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The Alps printers are full page, discontinued but plenty of them
>>
>> kicking
>>
>>> around for decal use.
>>
>>
>> Someone already tried. The heads are only designed to print onto paper
>> so they just don't put out enough heat, the copper sucks heat away to
>> quickly.
>

I dunno, but i had not the impression that hp bubblejets actually touch
the surface.
this is rather impossible because of two plastic "spacers" on the side of
the nozzles...

so how should they cool the nozzle?

i think the nozzle gets hot any any bad ink hardens.

(also close inspection of a hp head showed that there is only a "gap"
between two electrodes. i could not see a heating element. i think
maybe the ink itself carries the current and heats up.
this would mean also the resistance has to be the same
- but maybe i was seeing it wrong.)

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:35:38 -0500, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
>
> > Steve wrote:
> >> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> The Alps printers are full page, discontinued but plenty of them
> >>
> >> kicking
> >>
> >>> around for decal use.
> >>
> >>
> >> Someone already tried. The heads are only designed to print onto

paper

> >> so they just don't put out enough heat, the copper sucks heat away to
> >> quickly.
> >
> I dunno, but i had not the impression that hp bubblejets actually touch
> the surface.
> this is rather impossible because of two plastic "spacers" on the

side of

> the nozzles...
>
> so how should they cool the nozzle?
>
> i think the nozzle gets hot any any bad ink hardens.
>

You are getting confused. We were talking about Alps for those above
statements, and Alps are not inkjets. They are wax thermal (and dye
sub but we're ignoring that as useless for this) which use a ribbon
with a thin layer of wax that moves past a head that consists of tiny
heating elements. When they heat up, the wax is melted to the paper.

In an Alps (or any other ribbon based wax thermal printer) the ribbon
is scrolled at the same speed as the head so there is no apparent
motion between the ribbon and the paper. The head is pressing the
ribbon onto the paper.

But with a sheet of copper, the head elements just can't get hot
enough to reliably transfer the wax. Alps print-heads are already very
fragile so bumping up the head is not an option.

Steve

> You are getting confused.

right, i was getting confused...

(gmx changed the pop server adress and i did get no mail all day long.
then suddenly there were 60 or
so when i found out.

sorry 'bout that was thinkin this was still inkjet talk here.


thanks

ST