Homebrew_PCBs

Hi Group,
I made a test pcb in TCI3. I saved it as a Gerber file. I
then put it in KCam. The round pads became eight sided shapes.
Forty-two pads became over 1000 lines of code. The Gcode drew the pads
in the same order I drew them in TCI3. So I suspect if you don't want
your machine to spend more time traveling than cutting you better
have a plan.
I will admit I have very little experence with Gerber. But I
get the feeling the "Traveling Salesman Sydrome" is hiding there
also. Plotting out a PCBoard with a good PLT file is much faster than
a GCode file run on a homemade PCBMill. A Sherline or Taig running at
10,000 rpm can only cut circuit boards at 5" per minute. So do a test
board before it is too late!

John

Hi again John,

Not to beat a point to death (or belittle a fine product), but FREEWARE
KCam might not be the best example of generating Gcode from a Gerber
file! And as you say, it's generating EIGHT SIDES (like you do), not a
SINGLE ARC, as I've said can be done.

My program (actually just a FUNCTION in my controller program) is still
quite LIMITED in what it can do with a Gerber file (not "automatic" by
any means), but I'd LOVE a new sample of Gerber of "real work". I've
been able to do most of "DEMO1R" file that they supply.

I was not able to get KCam to read my Gerber files, so I know little of
KCam.

Yes, the "Traveling Salesman Problem" affects all such machining, board
stuffing, etc. You are lucky in that you can "hand optimize" the order
of your cuts. I'll just import into Vector CAD/CAM, and let Vector do
it for me. Or I can select the closed "trace cuts" in the order I want
(the trace cuts themselves will already be ordered properly).

That is until I decide that TSP's an interesting problem to solve, and
apply it to my own code! No rush!

I'd love to examine the Eagle (TCI3?) and/or Gerber files for your test,
if you wouldn't mind. What is TCI3? TurboCad?? Is your file RS274X or
RS274D? 'X' has a "header" in the file with all the aperture data,
while 'D' usually has an additional file (wheel file) with the
apertures. Can you supply?

Thanks for your contributions to this list!

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Hi Group,
> I made a test pcb in TCI3. I saved it as a Gerber file. I
> then put it in KCam. The round pads became eight sided shapes.
> Forty-two pads became over 1000 lines of code. The Gcode drew the pads
> in the same order I drew them in TCI3. So I suspect if you don't want
> your machine to spend more time traveling than cutting you better
> have a plan.
> I will admit I have very little experence with Gerber. But I
> get the feeling the "Traveling Salesman Sydrome" is hiding there
> also. Plotting out a PCBoard with a good PLT file is much faster than
> a GCode file run on a homemade PCBMill. A Sherline or Taig running at
> 10,000 rpm can only cut circuit boards at 5" per minute. So do a test
> board before it is too late!
>
> John

Hi Alan,
Please note most people in the group will be using Kcam-
TurboCad or Eagle. You seem to have a handle on the situation. The
TCI program I got in the files section here I beleive. The program is
in French? After you draw the circuit board. Save it! Then hit
Gerber! A Gerber file of the same name will appear in the directory
where you save the board file.

You mentioned circles that don't meet in my DXF file. Sounds
like a Ground Pad. On boards I sell to the public I outline a ground
connection for parts or wire on three sides. My new boards look like
cartoons. After I get the board working I go back and combine traces
with only a common border. Since a board is stuffed from the component
side I am taking out unnecessary cuts. My first boards were done this
way. I can get two large boards per bit. Milling time is also cut in
half.

Just remember I try to keep things cheap and simple.

John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi again John,
>
> Not to beat a point to death (or belittle a fine product), but
FREEWARE
> KCam might not be the best example of generating Gcode from a Gerber
> file! And as you say, it's generating EIGHT SIDES (like you do),
not a
> SINGLE ARC, as I've said can be done.
>
> My program (actually just a FUNCTION in my controller program) is
still
> quite LIMITED in what it can do with a Gerber file
(not "automatic" by
> any means), but I'd LOVE a new sample of Gerber of "real work".
I've
> been able to do most of "DEMO1R" file that they supply.
>
> I was not able to get KCam to read my Gerber files, so I know
little of
> KCam.
>
> Yes, the "Traveling Salesman Problem" affects all such machining,
board
> stuffing, etc. You are lucky in that you can "hand optimize" the
order
> of your cuts. I'll just import into Vector CAD/CAM, and let Vector
do
> it for me. Or I can select the closed "trace cuts" in the order I
want
> (the trace cuts themselves will already be ordered properly).
>
> That is until I decide that TSP's an interesting problem to solve,
and
> apply it to my own code! No rush!
>
> I'd love to examine the Eagle (TCI3?) and/or Gerber files for your
test,
> if you wouldn't mind. What is TCI3? TurboCad?? Is your file
RS274X or
> RS274D? 'X' has a "header" in the file with all the aperture data,
> while 'D' usually has an additional file (wheel file) with the
> apertures. Can you supply?
>
> Thanks for your contributions to this list!
>
> Alan KM6VV
>
>
> crankorgan wrote:
> >
> > Hi Group,
> > I made a test pcb in TCI3. I saved it as a Gerber file. I
> > then put it in KCam. The round pads became eight sided shapes.
> > Forty-two pads became over 1000 lines of code. The Gcode drew the
pads
> > in the same order I drew them in TCI3. So I suspect if you don't
want
> > your machine to spend more time traveling than cutting you better
> > have a plan.
> > I will admit I have very little experence with Gerber.
But I
> > get the feeling the "Traveling Salesman Sydrome" is hiding there
> > also. Plotting out a PCBoard with a good PLT file is much faster
than
> > a GCode file run on a homemade PCBMill. A Sherline or Taig
running at
> > 10,000 rpm can only cut circuit boards at 5" per minute. So do a
test
> > board before it is too late!
> >
> > John

Hi John,

Thanks for the reference to TCI! Generates Gerber 274X, but I can
extract the apertures by hand (my code doesn't do that... yet). Is this
the test file you were speaking of? Looks short enough. When I get
time, I'll run it through my program. I don't have the elliptical pads,
'tho.

Yes, These programs should form a common base for our efforts. And TCI
might be a little simpler then Eagle, which I still haven't found time
to learn (I managed to generate Gerber files of their DemoR1 board,
'tho).

OK, I see that now. Ground pads. Makes sense. Your boards look like
cartoons? How so?

Yes, simple is best. But I often like to explore the "blue sky", for
self edification, mostly.

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Hi Alan,
> Please note most people in the group will be using Kcam-
> TurboCad or Eagle. You seem to have a handle on the situation. The
> TCI program I got in the files section here I beleive. The program is
> in French? After you draw the circuit board. Save it! Then hit
> Gerber! A Gerber file of the same name will appear in the directory
> where you save the board file.
>
> You mentioned circles that don't meet in my DXF file. Sounds
> like a Ground Pad. On boards I sell to the public I outline a ground
> connection for parts or wire on three sides. My new boards look like
> cartoons. After I get the board working I go back and combine traces
> with only a common border. Since a board is stuffed from the component
> side I am taking out unnecessary cuts. My first boards were done this
> way. I can get two large boards per bit. Milling time is also cut in
> half.
>
> Just remember I try to keep things cheap and simple.
>
> John
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi again John,
> >
> > Not to beat a point to death (or belittle a fine product), but
> FREEWARE
> > KCam might not be the best example of generating Gcode from a Gerber
> > file! And as you say, it's generating EIGHT SIDES (like you do),
> not a
> > SINGLE ARC, as I've said can be done.
> >
> > My program (actually just a FUNCTION in my controller program) is
> still
> > quite LIMITED in what it can do with a Gerber file
> (not "automatic" by
> > any means), but I'd LOVE a new sample of Gerber of "real work".
> I've
> > been able to do most of "DEMO1R" file that they supply.
> >
> > I was not able to get KCam to read my Gerber files, so I know
> little of
> > KCam.
> >
> > Yes, the "Traveling Salesman Problem" affects all such machining,
> board
> > stuffing, etc. You are lucky in that you can "hand optimize" the
> order
> > of your cuts. I'll just import into Vector CAD/CAM, and let Vector
> do
> > it for me. Or I can select the closed "trace cuts" in the order I
> want
> > (the trace cuts themselves will already be ordered properly).
> >
> > That is until I decide that TSP's an interesting problem to solve,
> and
> > apply it to my own code! No rush!
> >
> > I'd love to examine the Eagle (TCI3?) and/or Gerber files for your
> test,
> > if you wouldn't mind. What is TCI3? TurboCad?? Is your file
> RS274X or
> > RS274D? 'X' has a "header" in the file with all the aperture data,
> > while 'D' usually has an additional file (wheel file) with the
> > apertures. Can you supply?
> >
> > Thanks for your contributions to this list!
> >
> > Alan KM6VV
> >
> >
> > crankorgan wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Group,
> > > I made a test pcb in TCI3. I saved it as a Gerber file. I
> > > then put it in KCam. The round pads became eight sided shapes.
> > > Forty-two pads became over 1000 lines of code. The Gcode drew the
> pads
> > > in the same order I drew them in TCI3. So I suspect if you don't
> want
> > > your machine to spend more time traveling than cutting you better
> > > have a plan.
> > > I will admit I have very little experence with Gerber.
> But I
> > > get the feeling the "Traveling Salesman Sydrome" is hiding there
> > > also. Plotting out a PCBoard with a good PLT file is much faster
> than
> > > a GCode file run on a homemade PCBMill. A Sherline or Taig
> running at
> > > 10,000 rpm can only cut circuit boards at 5" per minute. So do a
> test
> > > board before it is too late!
> > >
> > > John

Alan,
As you combine traces they get puffy and they start to look
like cartoons rather than traces. Years ago (I am 50)each trace was
a seperate pad trace pad. Then companies that made TVs started
increasing the width of the traces. After awhile the boards had
larger and larger traces. Large ground traces. I think this was to
save on acid during etching. Then when digital hit the traces got
thinner again. Long thin traces riding over barren sections of
boards. I have always tried to leave as much copper on the board as
possible. I had acid poop out on me once because I tried to remove
too much copper. I learned a valuable lesson that day.


John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for the reference to TCI! Generates Gerber 274X, but I can
> extract the apertures by hand (my code doesn't do that... yet). Is
this
> the test file you were speaking of? Looks short enough. When I get
> time, I'll run it through my program. I don't have the elliptical
pads,
> 'tho.
>
> Yes, These programs should form a common base for our efforts. And
TCI
> might be a little simpler then Eagle, which I still haven't found
time
> to learn (I managed to generate Gerber files of their DemoR1 board,
> 'tho).
>
> OK, I see that now. Ground pads. Makes sense. Your boards look
like
> cartoons? How so?
>
> Yes, simple is best. But I often like to explore the "blue sky",
for
> self edification, mostly.
>
> Alan KM6VV
>
>
> crankorgan wrote:
> >
> > Hi Alan,
> > Please note most people in the group will be using Kcam-
> > TurboCad or Eagle. You seem to have a handle on the situation. The
> > TCI program I got in the files section here I beleive. The
program is
> > in French? After you draw the circuit board. Save it! Then hit
> > Gerber! A Gerber file of the same name will appear in the
directory
> > where you save the board file.
> >
> > You mentioned circles that don't meet in my DXF file.
Sounds
> > like a Ground Pad. On boards I sell to the public I outline a
ground
> > connection for parts or wire on three sides. My new boards look
like
> > cartoons. After I get the board working I go back and combine
traces
> > with only a common border. Since a board is stuffed from the
component
> > side I am taking out unnecessary cuts. My first boards were done
this
> > way. I can get two large boards per bit. Milling time is also cut
in
> > half.
> >
> > Just remember I try to keep things cheap and simple.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
wrote:
> > > Hi again John,
> > >
> > > Not to beat a point to death (or belittle a fine product), but
> > FREEWARE
> > > KCam might not be the best example of generating Gcode from a
Gerber
> > > file! And as you say, it's generating EIGHT SIDES (like you
do),
> > not a
> > > SINGLE ARC, as I've said can be done.
> > >
> > > My program (actually just a FUNCTION in my controller program)
is
> > still
> > > quite LIMITED in what it can do with a Gerber file
> > (not "automatic" by
> > > any means), but I'd LOVE a new sample of Gerber of "real work".
> > I've
> > > been able to do most of "DEMO1R" file that they supply.
> > >
> > > I was not able to get KCam to read my Gerber files, so I know
> > little of
> > > KCam.
> > >
> > > Yes, the "Traveling Salesman Problem" affects all such
machining,
> > board
> > > stuffing, etc. You are lucky in that you can "hand optimize"
the
> > order
> > > of your cuts. I'll just import into Vector CAD/CAM, and let
Vector
> > do
> > > it for me. Or I can select the closed "trace cuts" in the
order I
> > want
> > > (the trace cuts themselves will already be ordered properly).
> > >
> > > That is until I decide that TSP's an interesting problem to
solve,
> > and
> > > apply it to my own code! No rush!
> > >
> > > I'd love to examine the Eagle (TCI3?) and/or Gerber files for
your
> > test,
> > > if you wouldn't mind. What is TCI3? TurboCad?? Is your file
> > RS274X or
> > > RS274D? 'X' has a "header" in the file with all the aperture
data,
> > > while 'D' usually has an additional file (wheel file) with the
> > > apertures. Can you supply?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your contributions to this list!
> > >
> > > Alan KM6VV
> > >
> > >
> > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Group,
> > > > I made a test pcb in TCI3. I saved it as a Gerber
file. I
> > > > then put it in KCam. The round pads became eight sided shapes.
> > > > Forty-two pads became over 1000 lines of code. The Gcode drew
the
> > pads
> > > > in the same order I drew them in TCI3. So I suspect if you
don't
> > want
> > > > your machine to spend more time traveling than cutting you
better
> > > > have a plan.
> > > > I will admit I have very little experence with
Gerber.
> > But I
> > > > get the feeling the "Traveling Salesman Sydrome" is hiding
there
> > > > also. Plotting out a PCBoard with a good PLT file is much
faster
> > than
> > > > a GCode file run on a homemade PCBMill. A Sherline or Taig
> > running at
> > > > 10,000 rpm can only cut circuit boards at 5" per minute. So
do a
> > test
> > > > board before it is too late!
> > > >
> > > > John

Hi John,

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I never thought of traces looking
like cartoons! Big wide grounds are good to have. And yes, they would
require less etch.

Alan KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

>
> Alan,
> As you combine traces they get puffy and they start to look
> like cartoons rather than traces. Years ago (I am 50)each trace was
> a seperate pad trace pad. Then companies that made TVs started
> increasing the width of the traces. After awhile the boards had
> larger and larger traces. Large ground traces. I think this was to
> save on acid during etching. Then when digital hit the traces got
> thinner again. Long thin traces riding over barren sections of
> boards. I have always tried to leave as much copper on the board as
> possible. I had acid poop out on me once because I tried to remove
> too much copper. I learned a valuable lesson that day.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Thanks for the reference to TCI! Generates Gerber 274X, but I can
> > extract the apertures by hand (my code doesn't do that... yet). Is
> this
> > the test file you were speaking of? Looks short enough. When I get
> > time, I'll run it through my program. I don't have the elliptical
> pads,
> > 'tho.
> >
> > Yes, These programs should form a common base for our efforts. And
> TCI
> > might be a little simpler then Eagle, which I still haven't found
> time
> > to learn (I managed to generate Gerber files of their DemoR1 board,
> > 'tho).
> >
> > OK, I see that now. Ground pads. Makes sense. Your boards look
> like
> > cartoons? How so?
> >
> > Yes, simple is best. But I often like to explore the "blue sky",
> for
> > self edification, mostly.
> >
> > Alan KM6VV
> >
> >
> > crankorgan wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Alan,
> > > Please note most people in the group will be using Kcam-
> > > TurboCad or Eagle. You seem to have a handle on the situation. The
> > > TCI program I got in the files section here I beleive. The
> program is
> > > in French? After you draw the circuit board. Save it! Then hit
> > > Gerber! A Gerber file of the same name will appear in the
> directory
> > > where you save the board file.
> > >
> > > You mentioned circles that don't meet in my DXF file.
> Sounds
> > > like a Ground Pad. On boards I sell to the public I outline a
> ground
> > > connection for parts or wire on three sides. My new boards look
> like
> > > cartoons. After I get the board working I go back and combine
> traces
> > > with only a common border. Since a board is stuffed from the
> component
> > > side I am taking out unnecessary cuts. My first boards were done
> this
> > > way. I can get two large boards per bit. Milling time is also cut
> in
> > > half.
> > >
> > > Just remember I try to keep things cheap and simple.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...>
> wrote:
> > > > Hi again John,
> > > >
> > > > Not to beat a point to death (or belittle a fine product), but
> > > FREEWARE
> > > > KCam might not be the best example of generating Gcode from a
> Gerber
> > > > file! And as you say, it's generating EIGHT SIDES (like you
> do),
> > > not a
> > > > SINGLE ARC, as I've said can be done.
> > > >
> > > > My program (actually just a FUNCTION in my controller program)
> is
> > > still
> > > > quite LIMITED in what it can do with a Gerber file
> > > (not "automatic" by
> > > > any means), but I'd LOVE a new sample of Gerber of "real work".
> > > I've
> > > > been able to do most of "DEMO1R" file that they supply.
> > > >
> > > > I was not able to get KCam to read my Gerber files, so I know
> > > little of
> > > > KCam.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the "Traveling Salesman Problem" affects all such
> machining,
> > > board
> > > > stuffing, etc. You are lucky in that you can "hand optimize"
> the
> > > order
> > > > of your cuts. I'll just import into Vector CAD/CAM, and let
> Vector
> > > do
> > > > it for me. Or I can select the closed "trace cuts" in the
> order I
> > > want
> > > > (the trace cuts themselves will already be ordered properly).
> > > >
> > > > That is until I decide that TSP's an interesting problem to
> solve,
> > > and
> > > > apply it to my own code! No rush!
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to examine the Eagle (TCI3?) and/or Gerber files for
> your
> > > test,
> > > > if you wouldn't mind. What is TCI3? TurboCad?? Is your file
> > > RS274X or
> > > > RS274D? 'X' has a "header" in the file with all the aperture
> data,
> > > > while 'D' usually has an additional file (wheel file) with the
> > > > apertures. Can you supply?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your contributions to this list!
> > > >
> > > > Alan KM6VV
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Group,
> > > > > I made a test pcb in TCI3. I saved it as a Gerber
> file. I
> > > > > then put it in KCam. The round pads became eight sided shapes.
> > > > > Forty-two pads became over 1000 lines of code. The Gcode drew
> the
> > > pads
> > > > > in the same order I drew them in TCI3. So I suspect if you
> don't
> > > want
> > > > > your machine to spend more time traveling than cutting you
> better
> > > > > have a plan.
> > > > > I will admit I have very little experence with
> Gerber.
> > > But I
> > > > > get the feeling the "Traveling Salesman Sydrome" is hiding
> there
> > > > > also. Plotting out a PCBoard with a good PLT file is much
> faster
> > > than
> > > > > a GCode file run on a homemade PCBMill. A Sherline or Taig
> > > running at
> > > > > 10,000 rpm can only cut circuit boards at 5" per minute. So
> do a
> > > test
> > > > > board before it is too late!
> > > > >
> > > > > John
>
>
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