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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] AHHH!!!! Thermography looking like a better option

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] AHHH!!!! Thermography looking like a better option

2004-02-11 by Leon Heller

>From: "joshdewinter" <joshdewinter@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] AHHH!!!!  Thermography looking like a better 
>option
>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:35:49 -0000
>
>   I'm getting frustrated.  I've tried all night (for several nights)
>to perfect my toner transfer process.  I keep getting marginal
>results.  I started with an iron.  Eventually, I got a laminator,
>albeit a cheesy, low grade one.
>   My results are not production grade, and it's frustrating me.

[deleted]

You are probably using the wrong printer, some are better than others at 
toner transfer.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email: aqzf13 at dsl dot pipex dot com
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

_________________________________________________________________
Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. 
http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

Re: AHHH!!!! Thermography looking like a better option

2004-02-11 by Phil

If the only problem I was having is to fill in an occasional pinhole, 
I'd call it good.  Given the amount of manual fussing you have to do, 
that seems a pretty minor point.

I've been experimenting with this technique but have yet to get a 
laminator becuase I've gotten reasonably good results from the iron 
approach.  It seems to me that there are a number of variables you 
have to deal with.  each one can ruin the process.

1) fusing temperature
1a) toner fusing point
1b) fusing time
2) fusing pressure
3) thickness of toner
4) quality and cleanliness of copper substrate

I think 2) is a huge issue in that there is fine line between too 
much and not enough.  I found that even modest pressure causes some 
smearing of toner (and the widening of traces). Its my opinion that 
little pressure is needed, you just have to ensure that the toner 
makes contact with the substrate for a long enough time at the fusing 
temperature.  i.e., it has to melt and be in contact with the 
substrate long enough.  I've gotten good results with letting the 
iron be all the weight needed.  I also do not apply ANY lateral force 
as that seems to cause smearing.

Since I print on an inkjet and then use a copier for my toner 
deposition, I am able to control the amount of toner pretty well.  I 
tried a non-scientific range of toner densities and found that you 
want it to be fairly thick, especialy for large ground areas.  How 
ever, the thicker the toner, the easier it is to get smearing.  less 
pressure is needed in that case.

It probably goes without saying but preparation the the board is 
critical.  I've gotten good results with a very fine emery cloth to 
create a rough surface (i.e. significantly increase total surface 
area to allow better toner bonding). 

Toner fusing temperature is tricky because different toners have 
different fusing points and it appears the substrate material type is 
a factor as well.  For example, ricoh has a lower temperature toner 
to allow shorter warm up times for their printers.  does anyone have 
pointers to information on fusing temperatures for varous toners?  
I've googled until my eyeballs hurt and found only scraps of info.  I 
may just have to try an experiment.


Phil



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" 
<leon_heller@h...> wrote:
> 
> >From: "joshdewinter" <joshdewinter@y...>
> >Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] AHHH!!!!  Thermography looking like a 
better 
> >option
> >Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:35:49 -0000
> >
> >   I'm getting frustrated.  I've tried all night (for several 
nights)
> >to perfect my toner transfer process.  I keep getting marginal
> >results.  I started with an iron.  Eventually, I got a laminator,
> >albeit a cheesy, low grade one.
> >   My results are not production grade, and it's frustrating me.
> 
> [deleted]
> 
> You are probably using the wrong printer, some are better than 
others at 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> toner transfer.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
> Email: aqzf13 at dsl dot pipex dot com
> WWW: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. 
> http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: AHHH!!!! Thermography looking like a better option

2004-02-12 by Art Eckstein

Phil,
When I started trying to figure the toner fusing point, I went to the HP 
site and looked up the MSDS for my particular toner.
I can't find it right now, but as memory serves me, they listed the 
softening point at 100 to 150 degrees C.

Might give a decent starting point.


It still gives a broad range At 06:14 PM 2/11/2004, you wrote:
>If the only problem I was having is to fill in an occasional pinhole,
>I'd call it good.  Given the amount of manual fussing you have to do,
>that seems a pretty minor point.
>
>I've been experimenting with this technique but have yet to get a
>laminator becuase I've gotten reasonably good results from the iron
>approach.  It seems to me that there are a number of variables you
>have to deal with.  each one can ruin the process.
>
>1) fusing temperature
>1a) toner fusing point
>1b) fusing time
>2) fusing pressure
>3) thickness of toner
>4) quality and cleanliness of copper substrate
>
>I think 2) is a huge issue in that there is fine line between too
>much and not enough.  I found that even modest pressure causes some
>smearing of toner (and the widening of traces). Its my opinion that
>little pressure is needed, you just have to ensure that the toner
>makes contact with the substrate for a long enough time at the fusing
>temperature.  i.e., it has to melt and be in contact with the
>substrate long enough.  I've gotten good results with letting the
>iron be all the weight needed.  I also do not apply ANY lateral force
>as that seems to cause smearing.
>
>Since I print on an inkjet and then use a copier for my toner
>deposition, I am able to control the amount of toner pretty well.  I
>tried a non-scientific range of toner densities and found that you
>want it to be fairly thick, especialy for large ground areas.  How
>ever, the thicker the toner, the easier it is to get smearing.  less
>pressure is needed in that case.
>
>It probably goes without saying but preparation the the board is
>critical.  I've gotten good results with a very fine emery cloth to
>create a rough surface (i.e. significantly increase total surface
>area to allow better toner bonding).
>
>Toner fusing temperature is tricky because different toners have
>different fusing points and it appears the substrate material type is
>a factor as well.  For example, ricoh has a lower temperature toner
>to allow shorter warm up times for their printers.  does anyone have
>pointers to information on fusing temperatures for varous toners?
>I've googled until my eyeballs hurt and found only scraps of info.  I
>may just have to try an experiment.
>
>
>Phil
>

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OLDER THAN DIRT
Country Bubba
(Actually the inventor of Country and Bubba)
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LaGrange, GA

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