Homebrew PCBs

Hey all
  With Pedro's advice, I just got a laminator.  But, it was a cheapy 
I found at at Wal Mart for only $22, and as I feared isn't producting 
quite the results I'd hoped for.  It seems to work well if I heat the 
board with an iron under no pressure other than its own weight, then 
run the board through the laminator for even pressure.  The laminator 
kinda works by itself, but it isn't really great, even after 11 or 12 
passes through it.  It leaves large areas with little spots where the 
toner didn't transfer, and leaves fine lines with little notches 
ocassionaly with the magazine paper I'm using.
  I was wondering if anybody knows the temperature of any laminators 
they have found to work really well.  This one says it hits 248 
degrees F.
  It also seems the fuser of a laser printer would work especially 
well, if you didn't damage the rollers by putting a board that was 
way fatter than it was intended for through it.  The boards I am 
using ar 28 mil in thickness.

  Thanks

-Josh
Pullman, WA

On 13/1/04 07:06, joshdewinter at joshdewinter@... wrote:

> With Pedro's advice, I just got a laminator.  But, it was a cheapy
> I found at at Wal Mart for only $22, and as I feared isn't producting
> quite the results I'd hoped for.  It seems to work well if I heat the

I get the same results as you - mine also states that its temp is 248 deg F,
120 deg C. I'd guess that a rise of 20 deg F or so ought to provide better
results.

I'm toying with the idea of shorting out the thermostat with a toggle
switch, if this idea works then I might use something like a thermistor
circuit to stop the thing from glowing red-hot :-)

Could use an iron to calibrate the thermistor against?

-- 
Cheers,

Derryck

> 
> I get the same results as you - mine also states that its temp is 
248 deg F,
> 120 deg C. I'd guess that a rise of 20 deg F or so ought to provide 
better
> results.
> 
> I'm toying with the idea of shorting out the thermostat with a 
toggle
> switch, if this idea works then I might use something like a 
thermistor
> circuit to stop the thing from glowing red-hot :-)
> 
> Could use an iron to calibrate the thermistor against?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Derryck

Well, I just recieved the Laminex PAC IX I ordered off eBay. It has a 
900 watt heater with adjustable thermostat and a thermometer. At its 
max the thermometer comes up to 360F (about 185C). I havent run many 
boards through it yet, so I'm not sure what temp is best (love to 
hear other peoples experiance about this).

-Denny

In the testing that I have done with my home built press, I find that 120 C 
works just fine with HP 1300 toner.

The best results that I have had testing is by heating for a sustained 
period of 5 minutes!
I plan to do further testing, to see how pressure/time affects toner transfer.

A quickie web site of how I made my press is located at:

http://ns1.dicomm.net/~axtein/PCB/PCB_Press.htm

Hope this may help you in your development:})




At 09:17 AM 1/14/2004, you wrote:
>On 13/1/04 07:06, joshdewinter at joshdewinter@... wrote:
>
> > With Pedro's advice, I just got a laminator.  But, it was a cheapy
> > I found at at Wal Mart for only $22, and as I feared isn't producting
> > quite the results I'd hoped for.  It seems to work well if I heat the
>
>I get the same results as you - mine also states that its temp is 248 deg F,
>120 deg C. I'd guess that a rise of 20 deg F or so ought to provide better
>results.
>
>I'm toying with the idea of shorting out the thermostat with a toggle
>switch, if this idea works then I might use something like a thermistor
>circuit to stop the thing from glowing red-hot :-)
>
>Could use an iron to calibrate the thermistor against?
>
>--
>Cheers,
>
>Derryck

Bubba

OLDER THAN DIRT
Country Bubba
(Actually the inventor of Country and Bubba)
In God We Trust

axtein@...
LaGrange, GA

http://ns1.dicomm.net/~axtein/dro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 15/1/04 01:28, Art Eckstein at axtein@... wrote:

> In the testing that I have done with my home built press, I find that 120 C
> works just fine with HP 1300 toner.

Laserjet 5M here.

> A quickie web site of how I made my press is located at:
> 
> http://ns1.dicomm.net/~axtein/PCB/PCB_Press.htm

Nice kit, but it would never fit into my work room :-)

-- 
Cheers,

Derryck

What is the largest size of board you did that way? I challenge you 
that a 6"x9" board will not laminate image correctly. I never had a 
single problem laminating small boards but it takes some tricky 
ironing to make a large board and I have ALMOST 100%. That ALMOST 
might be or might not be important, depending on the location of hte 
misfit. What you have there is a steady temperature and the pressure, 
but the pressure has to be of certain value; too high and the tracks 
are flattened. Too low and they won't transfer. Bu different parts of 
board require different(-ly applied) pressure, at least that's what 
find out. I am sceptical about your contraption until you provide 
your comments. Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...> 
wrote:
> On 15/1/04 01:28, Art Eckstein at axtein@d... wrote:
> 
> > In the testing that I have done with my home built press, I find 
that 120 C

> > works just fine with HP 1300 toner.
> 
> Laserjet 5M here.
> 
> > A quickie web site of how I made my press is located at:
> > 
> > http://ns1.dicomm.net/~axtein/PCB/PCB_Press.htm
> 
> Nice kit, but it would never fit into my work room :-)
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Derryck

As I said, this was strictly a test to see what was going to happen. I have 
a project coming up that will be small sized boards and "at present" I 
don't plan any large size boards. I just wanted to test concept.

The test setup is not pretty and I didn't have a clue when I started 
whether or not it would even work!  MSC has these heater up to 12x24" and 
wattages up to 1440 watts, but who wants to spend $91.44 (plus tax and 
shipping, plus AL plate etc) to test a CONCEPT?

What I was trying to prove/disprove with my test setup was "is this 
conceptually PRACTICAL" ?

I think based on what I have done so far, it IS and with additional 
testing, will be able to get CONSISTENT results.

I do NOT disagree with anything you have said about pressure, but also 
think there are several variables that have to be fully tested and 
documented for each of the various sized boards. In addition to the 
pressure, think about time, temperature, toner, detail of the board, type 
of transfer medium, (and several others).

One that came up in the first tests was the "backing board" for the 
pressure assembly. I started using AL plate, but found that it sucked to 
much heat and I could not get "reliable" transfers.  This was the reason to 
switch to the 2x4 (insulation properties).

I have NOT and will not say that this is the end all process. It was just 
offered as a suggestion of what I am pursuing!

I have learned a lot from this group and others, but extension of the 
technology will only continue if we can have dialog. I will WELCOME any 
suggestion on how to make it better!

What variables have I omitted, PLEASE let me know and time/money etc 
available, will sure as heck give it a try. This is one of my hobbies, not 
my profession and I have to learn as I go!


At 11:08 AM 1/15/2004, you wrote:
>What is the largest size of board you did that way? I challenge you
>that a 6"x9" board will not laminate image correctly. I never had a
>single problem laminating small boards but it takes some tricky
>ironing to make a large board and I have ALMOST 100%. That ALMOST
>might be or might not be important, depending on the location of hte
>misfit. What you have there is a steady temperature and the pressure,
>but the pressure has to be of certain value; too high and the tracks
>are flattened. Too low and they won't transfer. Bu different parts of
>board require different(-ly applied) pressure, at least that's what
>find out. I am sceptical about your contraption until you provide
>your comments. Mike
>
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...>
>wrote:
> > On 15/1/04 01:28, Art Eckstein at axtein@d... wrote:
> >
> > > In the testing that I have done with my home built press, I find
>that 120 C
> > > works just fine with HP 1300 toner.
> >
> > Laserjet 5M here.
> >
> > > A quickie web site of how I made my press is located at:
> > >
> > > http://ns1.dicomm.net/~axtein/PCB/PCB_Press.htm
> >
> > Nice kit, but it would never fit into my work room :-)
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Derryck

Bubba

OLDER THAN DIRT
Country Bubba
(Actually the inventor of Country and Bubba)
In God We Trust

axtein@...
LaGrange, GA

http://ns1.dicomm.net/~axtein/dro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings Gentlemen,
Have been following this thread and others with interest. 

Was intrigued with the temperature that HP was using on their fusers 
(ceramic - higher, H. Lamp - lower) so I contacted their Tech Support 
and asked them. Seems that their latest model uses a fuser set at 291 
degrees F.  No info on what temperature the toner melts at.

I'm using an old LaserJet 4L and an equally old cloths iron to do my 
work and am not having any real problems.  I preset my iron to a mark 
between Cotton and Linen. I use an 1-1/2 inch pad of paper below the 
board, which I preheat with the iron. When everything's warm, on goes 
the board-etc. and the 'ironing' begins. The hardest thing I have to 
remember is to not press down real hard. If the board is to be double-
sided, after a bit I flip the board and continue ironing. I generally 
do about 2-3 minutes total for a 4x6 board. The largest board to date 
has been a single sided 6x18.

Hope the temp info helps,
Mike

Hi,

I am testing a HP 4L fuser for try make a laminator. I have the service 
manual of this printer and this say:

"The fusing temperature is monitored by the DC Controller PCA, using a 
thermistor (TH901). The DC Controller maintains a temperature of about 180º 
C during print mode. If the fusing system overheats (about 215º), a relay 
opens the power circuit to the fusing heater, causing a Fuser Error messge. 
If the fusing system exceeds 240º C, the thermal fuse will open, cutting 
off power to the fuser."

Hope this info helps.
(sorry by my english)

Esteban Arias
earias@...


At 14:47 16/01/2004, you wrote:

>Greetings Gentlemen,
>Have been following this thread and others with interest.
>
>Was intrigued with the temperature that HP was using on their fusers
>(ceramic - higher, H. Lamp - lower) so I contacted their Tech Support
>and asked them. Seems that their latest model uses a fuser set at 291
>degrees F.  No info on what temperature the toner melts at.
>
>I'm using an old LaserJet 4L and an equally old cloths iron to do my
>work and am not having any real problems.  I preset my iron to a mark
>between Cotton and Linen. I use an 1-1/2 inch pad of paper below the
>board, which I preheat with the iron. When everything's warm, on goes
>the board-etc. and the 'ironing' begins. The hardest thing I have to
>remember is to not press down real hard. If the board is to be double-
>sided, after a bit I flip the board and continue ironing. I generally
>do about 2-3 minutes total for a 4x6 board. The largest board to date
>has been a single sided 6x18.
>
>Hope the temp info helps,
>Mike