Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew_PCBs

Archive for Homebrew_PCBs.

Index last updated: 2026-03-30 01:05 UTC

Thread

Silk Screen

Silk Screen

2004-01-11 by Balan

Hi

I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is it possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and if possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and the silk screen.

Regards
Balan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silk Screen

2004-01-11 by Xtian Xultz

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:51:34 -0800 (PST)
Balan <balan3@...> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is it possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and if possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and the silk screen.
>
Sure you can, that is the method used in any PCB fabric. In my silk screen stuff vendor, there is a etch resist ink for sale just to made PCBs.
The toner transfer method is a method where you print your layout in a material for that (I use laser film, other use magazine papers, and ther are for sale some films specific for that), and then you transfer the image to the pcb with some heat (I use clothes iron to make it). The silk screen method, I think you know how it is...

> Regards
> Balan
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silk Screen

2004-01-11 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Balan" <balan3@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 6:51 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Silk Screen


> Hi
>
> I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is it
possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and if
possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and the silk
screen.

I remember silk screen being used for making PCBs at English Electric
Kidsgrove when I was a student apprentice there over 40 years ago. I can't
remember how the actual silk screens were made (probably the same way as
those used for printing) but I do remember the operator putting the silk
screen and copper laminate together in a frame, applying the resist and
using a squeegee to spread it out. The copper laminate was then removed and
etched after the resist had dried.

This technique was only used on the less critical boards: power supplies and
the like.

They also used silk screen for applying the legends to PCBs, of course.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@...
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-12 by grantfair2001

Toner transfer is more appropriate for prototypes. Why? There are
fewer steps with toner transfer - draw PCB art on computer, laser
print it, iron on to PCB, remove paper, etch PCB.

Silk screen is best for mass production. There are more steps: obtain
silk screen and frame, photosensitize the silk with emulsion, draw PCB
art on computer, print to transparency film, use that to expose the
silkscreen, develop silkscreen, clean, then print PCB with silk screen
ink, dry ink, etch PCB, remove ink from etched PCB. Clean ink from
silk screen (if you want to use it again!) soon after last print made.

The resolution attainable with silk screen depends on the "mesh" of
the silk, that is (I think) the number of threads per inch of the
fabric. I don't know the limits, but I think pretty good resolution
is possible. I made some PCBs with silk screen 25 years ago; the
technology was friendly, that is, with just simple instructions I was
able to make the PCB's without much trouble.

More equipment is required to do silk screen - silk screen and frames,
work area for printing, some way to get the screens to hinge up, and
some way to hold the pcb during printing, ink, squeegee, cleaning
solvents, developer for photosensitive emulsion, the emulsion itself,
chemical to clean screen if you are going to reuse it. All you need
for toner transfer is an iron and toner transfer paper, which may be
simple paper of various kinds.

There is at least one member on the list who used silk screen
commercially, so if you have questions, he has the answers.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Balan <balan3@y...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is it
possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and if
possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and the
silk screen.

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-12 by roel_cnc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
<grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> Toner transfer is more appropriate for prototypes. Why? There are
> fewer steps with toner transfer - draw PCB art on computer, laser
> print it, iron on to PCB, remove paper, etch PCB.
>
> Silk screen is best for mass production. There are more steps:
obtain
> silk screen and frame, photosensitize the silk with emulsion, draw
PCB
> art on computer, print to transparency film, use that to expose the
> silkscreen, develop silkscreen, clean, then print PCB with silk
screen
> ink, dry ink, etch PCB, remove ink from etched PCB. Clean ink from
> silk screen (if you want to use it again!) soon after last print
made.
>
> The resolution attainable with silk screen depends on the "mesh" of
> the silk, that is (I think) the number of threads per inch of the
> fabric. I don't know the limits, but I think pretty good resolution
> is possible. I made some PCBs with silk screen 25 years ago; the
> technology was friendly, that is, with just simple instructions I
was
> able to make the PCB's without much trouble.
>
> More equipment is required to do silk screen - silk screen and
frames,
> work area for printing, some way to get the screens to hinge up, and
> some way to hold the pcb during printing, ink, squeegee, cleaning
> solvents, developer for photosensitive emulsion, the emulsion
itself,
> chemical to clean screen if you are going to reuse it. All you need
> for toner transfer is an iron and toner transfer paper, which may be
> simple paper of various kinds.
>
> There is at least one member on the list who used silk screen
> commercially, so if you have questions, he has the answers.
>
> Grant

Hi,

Balan
To make a film for screen printing it must be even better (real
black) as for pcb's beside that the fabric that is used normaly is a
stainles steel one with incredible tension normal frame would be
bending.
so use the film direct on photo imag. pcb then is easyer.
I do a lot of screen work but only on tshirts and stickers like stuff
To develop a screen you use atleast a 500watt bulp uv at 2 meters
distand and a special frame with rubber like back to press mesch and
film together with vacuum pump - why the distands- the sensible
screen is atleast 0.3mm thick - undercutting is the worst thing u can
have

the photo imag. emulsion is mostly a diazo based stuff and got a
shelf life off 3 months max.
so screen printing is possible but the expensive way to do.

But if you like more info i'm there to help you out !!

gr. Roel



>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Balan <balan3@y...> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is
it
> possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and
if
> possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and
the
> silk screen.

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-14 by grantfair2001

Fabric screens to make PCB's are commonplace, work well, and only
require wooden frames to hold the fabric. I have about 50 used ones in
my basement from a former manufacturer who made PCB's for hobbyists as
well as commercial customers.

Just so Balan does not get turned off totally by the challenges of
silk screen (if he has any interest left by now!).

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "roel_cnc" <atmelletje@g...> wrote:
> Balan
> To make a film for screen printing it must be even better (real
> black) as for pcb's beside that the fabric that is used normaly is a
> stainles steel one with incredible tension normal frame would be
> bending.
> so use the film direct on photo imag. pcb then is easyer.
> I do a lot of screen work but only on tshirts and stickers like stuff
> To develop a screen you use atleast a 500watt bulp uv at 2 meters
> distand and a special frame with rubber like back to press mesch and
> film together with vacuum pump - why the distands- the sensible
> screen is atleast 0.3mm thick - undercutting is the worst thing u can
> have
>
> the photo imag. emulsion is mostly a diazo based stuff and got a
> shelf life off 3 months max.
> so screen printing is possible but the expensive way to do.
>
> But if you like more info i'm there to help you out !!
>
> gr. Roel
>
>
>
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Balan <balan3@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is
> it
> > possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and
> if
> > possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and
> the
> > silk screen.

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-26 by mikezcnc

Toner transfer is great until the boards becomes very dense and
detailed. For most 'hobby' boards- no problem. However, on a dense
board the success rate is 98% of image. That appears to be acceptable
for most people. I am perfecting a photomethod and can tell you that
the results are superior even on a kitchen table, I already made
tests to 9 mills on a dense board and am still pushing lower.
Costwise-of course photomethod will be a bit more expensive but the
quality and detail! Time: few minutes.
Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
<grant.fair@s...> wrote:
> Toner transfer is more appropriate for prototypes. Why? There are
> fewer steps with toner transfer - draw PCB art on computer, laser
> print it, iron on to PCB, remove paper, etch PCB.
>
> Silk screen is best for mass production. There are more steps:
obtain
> silk screen and frame, photosensitize the silk with emulsion, draw
PCB
> art on computer, print to transparency film, use that to expose the
> silkscreen, develop silkscreen, clean, then print PCB with silk
screen
> ink, dry ink, etch PCB, remove ink from etched PCB. Clean ink from
> silk screen (if you want to use it again!) soon after last print
made.
>
> The resolution attainable with silk screen depends on the "mesh" of
> the silk, that is (I think) the number of threads per inch of the
> fabric. I don't know the limits, but I think pretty good resolution
> is possible. I made some PCBs with silk screen 25 years ago; the
> technology was friendly, that is, with just simple instructions I
was
> able to make the PCB's without much trouble.
>
> More equipment is required to do silk screen - silk screen and
frames,
> work area for printing, some way to get the screens to hinge up, and
> some way to hold the pcb during printing, ink, squeegee, cleaning
> solvents, developer for photosensitive emulsion, the emulsion
itself,
> chemical to clean screen if you are going to reuse it. All you need
> for toner transfer is an iron and toner transfer paper, which may be
> simple paper of various kinds.
>
> There is at least one member on the list who used silk screen
> commercially, so if you have questions, he has the answers.
>
> Grant
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Balan <balan3@y...> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is
it
> possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and
if
> possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and
the
> silk screen.

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-26 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Balan <balan3@y...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am just learning the art of PCB making. Can Someone tell me is it
possible to transfer etch resist onto a board using Silk screen and
if possible what is the difference between toner transfer methord and
the silk screen.
>
> Regards
> Balan


Hi Balan,

Just another point of view.

The toner and silk screen process begin the same. layout if software.
then one has to create a printed output, again, both the same ?


For toner transfer, the next step, or series of steps is to heat the
board, align the traces, add a backing material, add heat and
pressure, inspect the heck out of the board.

One printout-one board. 100% of the print is used up in one board.

For silk screen, one has to get the print onto the screen. This is
probably the hardest part. the higher quality on this step, the
better boards later.

At this point the toner/iron and silk screen have close to the the
same amout of work, but...

From this point, the silkscreen is a repetitive printing process so
you can make multiple boards.

The photo resist method has a higher materials cost for the board,
but is offset from the cost of the ink. and clean up.

but, from the image transfer the boards pretty much all get the same
chemical etch.

BUT... And here's the HUGE benefit with silk screen, you are laready
set up to add a COMPONENT silk screen layer ! And that is way ahead
of the rest of us !

There are water slide papers to make decals, but those are between
$1.00 and $2.00 per sheet 8x11 sheet.

The question would be one of your desires and skills and the
materials available. it may well be that silk screen is easily
available and coated boards are not.

I have an engraver machine so every board is a one shot board. If I
need 50 or more boards, I'll go to a board house, for the quality and
additional features.

Dave






>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-26 by Stefan Trethan

> BUT... And here's the HUGE benefit with silk screen, you are laready
> set up to add a COMPONENT silk screen layer ! And that is way ahead
> of the rest of us !
>

Just put it in the plotter and plot the component layout.
you can choose whatever color you like, even white if you fill a pen with
white
acrylic laquer.
the "ohp pen" method will work just fine, because line with is not such a
problem.
the "carbide tip pen" metod will work fine too, because layer thickness is
no problem.
even the cheap felt tip plotter ohp pen would work just perfect.

do it before drilling to avoid wear of the pen when it bumps into a hole.
or stop the lines just short of the holes.

the component layout is a very low demand task (compared to the copper
layout).
it can be done with any method you prefer (and this is the reason why it
is done with
silk screen - which is not exactly the best you get in terms of
resolution).


I personally do not have any intentions to use silkscreen, i think it
complicates things a lot.
if you really need more resolution than TT offers (and 8 mil is ok for me)
then go to photoresist.
this is WAY easier to do, faster and more precise than silk screen.

the really only advantage of silkscreen i can see until now is that is may
be used for solder resist
laquer - which i do not need. But there too is "developable" laquer -
which makes things easier.


I know that silkscreen has all problems (and more) of photoresist (like
never dark enough film)
and (imho) not a single advantage (maybe you can get it cheaper which i
strongly doubt).


Just to add my opinion here...

ST

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-27 by Roger, in Bangkok

Whoever has a "crappy" silk-screen, likely has what they paid for, or at
least no more than what they were willing to accept. Silk-screen
resolution capabilities far exceed any typical PCB requirements!

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

-----Original Message-----


Now I know why the silk screen on PCB looks so crappy!

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-27 by mikezcnc

Hey Roger,

This is me, the opinionated guy. Paid a fortune and the names of
companies which made the boards will be withheld. Look under the hood
of your car and check PCB of any module and you can see a fantastic
resolution you are talking about. Once done with that example, check
the electronics of titans like Pioneer and Sony. To me what I see is
poor quality silk screen. Mike




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger, in Bangkok"
<mercies@c...> wrote:
> Whoever has a "crappy" silk-screen, likely has what they paid for,
or at
> least no more than what they were willing to accept. Silk-screen
> resolution capabilities far exceed any typical PCB requirements!
>
> Regards/Roger, in Bangkok
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Now I know why the silk screen on PCB looks so crappy!

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-28 by Roger, in Bangkok

Hi Mike--

I totally agree that world is full of all sorts or crap ... my world is
not. I set the spec, pay for what I want and get it. I could just as
easily suggest going to an art museum and looking at all of the ancient
serigraph (silk screen) masters to see what is possible. Our world(s)
simply lie somewhere between the extremes of the automobile engine
compartment world and the art institute world.

Many moons ago I did some acrylic cased prototypes for a Fortune 100
employer to do show and tells. Early on into the planning, I decided to
order the boards without silk screen. Then I took the finished boards
to the local community college arts professor and explained what I
wanted. Ended up with twenty some fantastic boards done for free as an
art project! I guess the kids were also really hyped at having done
something that they saw as being of value.

So, I guess maybe I'm the pot-stirring guy, huh?! :o))

Regards/Roger

-----Original Message-----

Hey Roger,

This is me, the opinionated guy. Paid a fortune and the names of
companies which made the boards will be withheld. Look under the hood
of your car and check PCB of any module and you can see a fantastic
resolution you are talking about. Once done with that example, check
the electronics of titans like Pioneer and Sony. To me what I see is
poor quality silk screen. Mike




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger, in Bangkok"
<mercies@c...> wrote:
> Whoever has a "crappy" silk-screen, likely has what they paid for,
or at
> least no more than what they were willing to accept. Silk-screen
> resolution capabilities far exceed any typical PCB requirements!
>
> Regards/Roger, in Bangkok
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Now I know why the silk screen on PCB looks so crappy!


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-28 by mikezcnc

Hey, I know that silk screen can be great for fine SMD traces of
conductive ink on glass and that's done by one guy. But I am not
happy with silk screens applied by the regular PCB houses. I am sure
it's the cost but nobody is willing to pay more for info that is
almost not needed due to automatic placement. We are just talking
from different angles. I looked at the results of a squeezed turnip
and then I voiced my opinion. But, that stuff I see printed with silk
screen on glass is amazing. The next better stuff is laser trimming
and sputtering. Having lots of fun with them girls, huh?! Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger, in Bangkok"
<mercies@c...> wrote:
> Hi Mike--
>
> I totally agree that world is full of all sorts or crap ... my
world is
> not. I set the spec, pay for what I want and get it. I could just
as
> easily suggest going to an art museum and looking at all of the
ancient
> serigraph (silk screen) masters to see what is possible. Our world
(s)
> simply lie somewhere between the extremes of the automobile engine
> compartment world and the art institute world.
>
> Many moons ago I did some acrylic cased prototypes for a Fortune 100
> employer to do show and tells. Early on into the planning, I
decided to
> order the boards without silk screen. Then I took the finished
boards
> to the local community college arts professor and explained what I
> wanted. Ended up with twenty some fantastic boards done for free
as an
> art project! I guess the kids were also really hyped at having done
> something that they saw as being of value.
>
> So, I guess maybe I'm the pot-stirring guy, huh?! :o))
>
> Regards/Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Hey Roger,
>
> This is me, the opinionated guy. Paid a fortune and the names of
> companies which made the boards will be withheld. Look under the
hood
> of your car and check PCB of any module and you can see a fantastic
> resolution you are talking about. Once done with that example,
check
> the electronics of titans like Pioneer and Sony. To me what I see
is
> poor quality silk screen. Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger, in Bangkok"
> <mercies@c...> wrote:
> > Whoever has a "crappy" silk-screen, likely has what they paid for,
> or at
> > least no more than what they were willing to accept. Silk-screen
> > resolution capabilities far exceed any typical PCB requirements!
> >
> > Regards/Roger, in Bangkok
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> > Now I know why the silk screen on PCB looks so crappy!
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Silk Screen

2004-01-29 by Roger, in Bangkok

Nah ... the past 20 years has kept me too busy and happy with family and
work ;-))

-----Original Message-----

... Having lots of fun with them girls, huh?! Mike