Homebrew PCBs

Hi everyone.
  I'm so glad to have found a forum like this.  I have been 
experimenting, trying to make my own boards for the longest time.  
I'm always on the hunt for new, easy, do-it-at-home methods that 
provide clean, repeatable results.  The two I've ever put any faith 
in are the Press-n-Peel stuff for your laser printer, which seems to 
be damn cost restrictive, and the pre-sensitized develop-by-light 
boards you can develop with a piece of overhead transparency and a 
laser printer, which takes some time and you have to order.
  Tell me, are there other methods people are getting good results 
with that might be simpler?  I'm new, and I'm guessing there must be 
better ways I haven't heard of.
  I primarily use Mentor or Protel DXP for routing, and mainly have 
been using a proto machine at the company I work for to cut 
(literally) my boards out.  But, I'd really like to not have to rely 
on those high-tech, high-$$$ tools, and be able to do something 
myself at home, using EagleCad and some cheap tools and/or chemicals 
that I can get locally, if possible.  What's the current homebrew 
cutting edge stuff?
  Thanks very much for your ideas.

-Josh D
Pullman, WA

Hi!
Very nice to see a new member.

Please read in the group archives and in the links provided.
There is TonerTransfer which we are VERY fond of.
It is similar to press-n-peel but without the high costs.

We will be very happy to help you but you have do do a little bit of 
homework.

The archives are here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

one guide is here:

http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

there are others, better, from group members.
i don't know where the links are, i hope in the groups link section.
if not the authors OWE TO PLACE THEM THERE!
(Have you all heared me? you lazy ......) ;-)

Well, most likely nobody has placed them in the link section ;-).
So you will find them with a search in the archives for Toner Transfer
or a google search.

As a contribution to the group it would be nice of you to place all Toner 
Transfer
links you find in the folder in the Link section of the group.

When you have done some reading, write again and you will be helped with 
any questions.

You must understand, it is not target-oriented to write everything again.
If you invest a hour looking through the stuff you will take up more than i 
could
write here.

You are just right here, be assured.
There are some great helpful people here which i owe a lot...
welcome.


Stefan





On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 20:45:09 -0000, joshdewinter <joshdewinter@...> 
wrote:

> Hi everyone.
> I'm so glad to have found a forum like this.  I have been experimenting, 
> trying to make my own boards for the longest time.  I'm always on the 
> hunt for new, easy, do-it-at-home methods that provide clean, repeatable 
> results.  The two I've ever put any faith in are the Press-n-Peel stuff 
> for your laser printer, which seems to be damn cost restrictive, and the 
> pre-sensitized develop-by-light boards you can develop with a piece of 
> overhead transparency and a laser printer, which takes some time and you 
> have to order.
> Tell me, are there other methods people are getting good results with 
> that might be simpler?  I'm new, and I'm guessing there must be better 
> ways I haven't heard of.
> I primarily use Mentor or Protel DXP for routing, and mainly have been 
> using a proto machine at the company I work for to cut (literally) my 
> boards out.  But, I'd really like to not have to rely on those high-tech, 
> high-$$$ tools, and be able to do something myself at home, using 
> EagleCad and some cheap tools and/or chemicals that I can get locally, if 
> possible.  What's the current homebrew cutting edge stuff?
> Thanks very much for your ideas.
>
> -Josh D
> Pullman, WA
>
>
>

Josh,
I think getting professional circuit boards made is so cheap now, i 
don't bother with making them myself..seriously when you can get $13 
per double sided board..professional looking and nicely done, why 
bother doing it yourself?

I go to companies like www.pcbFABexpress.com or to AP circuits in 
canada.
but I like the quality of pcbFABexpress a lot and also they are a US 
company so no customs hassles.

Also check out their "2layer BARE pcb", basically PCBs with no solder 
mask or silk screen..and it is at even lower prices..$40 lot charge 
plus 60 cents per square inch..

hope that helps.

james

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Hi!
> Very nice to see a new member.
> 
> Please read in the group archives and in the links provided.
> There is TonerTransfer which we are VERY fond of.
> It is similar to press-n-peel but without the high costs.
> 
> We will be very happy to help you but you have do do a little bit 
of 
> homework.
> 
> The archives are here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> 
> one guide is here:
> 
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> 
> there are others, better, from group members.
> i don't know where the links are, i hope in the groups link section.
> if not the authors OWE TO PLACE THEM THERE!
> (Have you all heared me? you lazy ......) ;-)
> 
> Well, most likely nobody has placed them in the link section ;-).
> So you will find them with a search in the archives for Toner 
Transfer
> or a google search.
> 
> As a contribution to the group it would be nice of you to place all 
Toner 
> Transfer
> links you find in the folder in the Link section of the group.
> 
> When you have done some reading, write again and you will be helped 
with 
> any questions.
> 
> You must understand, it is not target-oriented to write everything 
again.
> If you invest a hour looking through the stuff you will take up 
more than i 
> could
> write here.
> 
> You are just right here, be assured.
> There are some great helpful people here which i owe a lot...
> welcome.
> 
> 
> Stefan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 20:45:09 -0000, joshdewinter 
<joshdewinter@y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi everyone.
> > I'm so glad to have found a forum like this.  I have been 
experimenting, 
> > trying to make my own boards for the longest time.  I'm always on 
the 
> > hunt for new, easy, do-it-at-home methods that provide clean, 
repeatable 
> > results.  The two I've ever put any faith in are the Press-n-Peel 
stuff 
> > for your laser printer, which seems to be damn cost restrictive, 
and the 
> > pre-sensitized develop-by-light boards you can develop with a 
piece of 
> > overhead transparency and a laser printer, which takes some time 
and you 
> > have to order.
> > Tell me, are there other methods people are getting good results 
with 
> > that might be simpler?  I'm new, and I'm guessing there must be 
better 
> > ways I haven't heard of.
> > I primarily use Mentor or Protel DXP for routing, and mainly have 
been 
> > using a proto machine at the company I work for to cut 
(literally) my 
> > boards out.  But, I'd really like to not have to rely on those 
high-tech, 
> > high-$$$ tools, and be able to do something myself at home, using 
> > EagleCad and some cheap tools and/or chemicals that I can get 
locally, if 

> > possible.  What's the current homebrew cutting edge stuff?
> > Thanks very much for your ideas.
> >
> > -Josh D
> > Pullman, WA
> >
> >
> >

I truly enjoyed your message as it gave me an opportunity to look at 
their web site and here is what I learned:

"Our pricing for Bare PCBs is based on Total square inches of all 
your boards. There is a lot charge of $40 PLUS 60 cents per square 
inch. Example: for 30 pieces of a 1 inch X 3 inch PCB, the total area 
is (1X3)X30 = 90 sq inches. The calculated price for this particular 
order is $40 + $0.60*90 = $94 (that is, a low price of only $3.13 per 
PCB). 

Traditionally, PCBs with no soldermask or legend have been offered by 
companies that are based in Canada- often resulting in transit delays 
and paperwork-hassles due to US Customs. Now PCBFABEXPRESS provides 
you these boards faster, easier, and cheaper-- straight from Silicon 
Valley!"

What they are saying is that you have to order so many boards to fit 
a 100sq in panel and in their example you would pay $90 for 30 PCBs 
of 1"x3" size. My cost for 8"x12" board is $4 for material (that's 
what I paid), $1 for chemicals and $0.50 for a transparency. Granted 
I have build up my 'lab' to be able to do that. But that lab will be 
with me until I'll buy a conductive ink printer on ebay in the year 
2020.

Then they don't do the silk screen nor solder mask. I can do it if I 
wanted to but they don't do it?!

"So what's the big deal with multiple parts? Why DON'T you accept my 
design files that has multiple PCBs in it?" - they comment. It 
appears that you have to fill up 100sq in with the same PCB multiples 
and if you need the second PCB you need to prepare another $94.

Does the 5 day turn around include shipping from CA to NY? Is the 
cost of shipping included? I doubt. I am not sure if their FAQ 
portion matches the pricing on the front page and I need to ask my 
lawyer to give them a call.

Aside from all the issues listed above the biggest issue is that one 
has to commit himself to an expense not being even sure if the design 
works and most of the time it doesn't. Then I have to wait 5 days and 
pay. I can have protoypes with 9 mills lines using a heat transfer 
tonght and 7 mils or better in a day or two using photochemical 
method which I am currently tuning. It actually helped me to see the 
limit of my quest for PCB resolution: if they offer 7 mils then I 
guess it should be the limit for me too. 

Question to the team: does 7 mills cover all SMDs, liek SOT23 or SOT 
223?

Thank you for pointing that link to us because I might need it once I 
have a solid prototype in mind. But even then, all it takes is jsut 
skillful panelization and a larger cuvette... and more laundry powder.
This would be the time where the direct transfer method would 
probably fail due to a size of the panel.

Mike





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "kingsettler2002" 
<jamesjain2003@n...> wrote:
> Josh,
> I think getting professional circuit boards made is so cheap now, i 
> don't bother with making them myself..seriously when you can get 
$13 
> per double sided board..professional looking and nicely done, why 
> bother doing it yourself?
> 
> I go to companies like www.pcbFABexpress.com or to AP circuits in 
> canada.
> but I like the quality of pcbFABexpress a lot and also they are a 
US 
> company so no customs hassles.
> 
> Also check out their "2layer BARE pcb", basically PCBs with no 
solder 
> mask or silk screen..and it is at even lower prices..$40 lot charge 
> plus 60 cents per square inch..
> 
> hope that helps.
> 
> james
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > Hi!
> > Very nice to see a new member.
> > 
> > Please read in the group archives and in the links provided.
> > There is TonerTransfer which we are VERY fond of.
> > It is similar to press-n-peel but without the high costs.
> > 
> > We will be very happy to help you but you have do do a little bit 
> of 
> > homework.
> > 
> > The archives are here:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> > 
> > one guide is here:
> > 
> > http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> > 
> > there are others, better, from group members.
> > i don't know where the links are, i hope in the groups link 
section.
> > if not the authors OWE TO PLACE THEM THERE!
> > (Have you all heared me? you lazy ......) ;-)
> > 
> > Well, most likely nobody has placed them in the link section ;-).
> > So you will find them with a search in the archives for Toner 
> Transfer
> > or a google search.
> > 
> > As a contribution to the group it would be nice of you to place 
all 
> Toner 
> > Transfer
> > links you find in the folder in the Link section of the group.
> > 
> > When you have done some reading, write again and you will be 
helped 
> with 
> > any questions.
> > 
> > You must understand, it is not target-oriented to write 
everything 
> again.
> > If you invest a hour looking through the stuff you will take up 
> more than i 
> > could
> > write here.
> > 
> > You are just right here, be assured.
> > There are some great helpful people here which i owe a lot...
> > welcome.
> > 
> > 
> > Stefan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 20:45:09 -0000, joshdewinter 
> <joshdewinter@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi everyone.
> > > I'm so glad to have found a forum like this.  I have been 
> experimenting, 
> > > trying to make my own boards for the longest time.  I'm always 
on 
> the 
> > > hunt for new, easy, do-it-at-home methods that provide clean, 
> repeatable 
> > > results.  The two I've ever put any faith in are the Press-n-
Peel 
> stuff 
> > > for your laser printer, which seems to be damn cost 
restrictive, 
> and the 
> > > pre-sensitized develop-by-light boards you can develop with a 
> piece of 
> > > overhead transparency and a laser printer, which takes some 
time 
> and you 
> > > have to order.
> > > Tell me, are there other methods people are getting good 
results 
> with 
> > > that might be simpler?  I'm new, and I'm guessing there must be 
> better 
> > > ways I haven't heard of.
> > > I primarily use Mentor or Protel DXP for routing, and mainly 
have 
> been 
> > > using a proto machine at the company I work for to cut 
> (literally) my 
> > > boards out.  But, I'd really like to not have to rely on those 
> high-tech, 
> > > high-$$$ tools, and be able to do something myself at home, 
using 

> > > EagleCad and some cheap tools and/or chemicals that I can get 
> locally, if 
> > > possible.  What's the current homebrew cutting edge stuff?
> > > Thanks very much for your ideas.
> > >
> > > -Josh D
> > > Pullman, WA
> > >
> > >
> > >

Hi, I am new and this is my first post. I have a few beginner questions.

1. What is the best and easiest to learn, free PCB software to print 
with? I am going to use the Gootee method with laser printer and make 
simple beginner to intermediate 1 sided boards. Resistor, IC's, Diodes, 
etc...
2. What is the best size carbide drills for this? Ebay the best place to 
buy them?

Thanks,
Dave

Dave <theschemer@...> writes:
> 1. What is the best and easiest to learn, free PCB software to print 
> with? I am going to use the Gootee method with laser printer and make 
> simple beginner to intermediate 1 sided boards. Resistor, IC's, Diodes, 
> etc...

I won't say it's the easiest to learn (but once you do learn it, it's
pretty easy, and quite powerful), but gEDA is at least free.  For
simple boards, you can use only the PCB program, pulling footprints
out of the library and manually connecting them.  It also has a few
options specifically designed for toner transfer etching.

http://www.geda.seul.org/
http://pcb.sourceforge.net/

These are geared towards posix environments, and while they do work
under Windows, it's not something I'd recommend for beginners yet.

> 2. What is the best size carbide drills for this? Ebay the best place to 
> buy them?

I got a set of 50 random sizes from Grizzly:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/50-pc-Carbide-Bit-Set/G7950

The 13 mil (smallest) sizes work well with wire wrapping wire for vias
and jumpers, but you'll need a way to hold your drill steady.  This is
what I did: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/

Thanks for the info. I am running Windows but I guess I can convert a 
spare pc to run Linux as I wanted to one day anyhow. I also have a Mac 
but it doesn't get used much. So what is the best for Windows? Eagle by 
Cadsoft or Express PCB or something else? Isn't there 2 or 3 sizes of 
drills that are most often used so I could buy a bunch of those sizes? I 
have seen the kits before but figured I would not use most of the drills 
(at least not for circuit boards). But the price is right at Grizzly. 
:)  I have a drill press so I am set there. I think I even have a 
portable drill press I picked up at a flea market and I need to see if 
it will work with my Dremel. That is a nice drilling setup that you made 
though...quite ingenious.
Thanks,
Dave

DJ Delorie wrote:
>
>
>
> I won't say it's the easiest to learn (but once you do learn it, it's
> pretty easy, and quite powerful), but gEDA is at least free. For
> simple boards, you can use only the PCB program, pulling footprints
> out of the library and manually connecting them. It also has a few
> options specifically designed for toner transfer etching.
>
> http://www.geda.seul.org/ <http://www.geda.seul.org/>
> http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ <http://pcb.sourceforge.net/>
>
> These are geared towards posix environments, and while they do work
> under Windows, it's not something I'd recommend for beginners yet.
>
> > 2. What is the best size carbide drills for this? Ebay the best 
> place to
> > buy them?
>
> I got a set of 50 random sizes from Grizzly:
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/50-pc-Carbide-Bit-Set/G7950 
> <http://www.grizzly.com/products/50-pc-Carbide-Bit-Set/G7950>
>
> The 13 mil (smallest) sizes work well with wire wrapping wire for vias
> and jumpers, but you'll need a way to hold your drill steady. This is
> what I did: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/ 
> <http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/>
>
> 
> Messages in this topic 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/3643;_ylc=X3oDMTM1MjU4Z2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1MDUzNjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDgzMjkxBG1zZ0lkAzE5NDY4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE5NTc4NDkwMQR0cGNJZAMzNjQz> 
> (0)  
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcGJwdTVxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1MDUzNjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDgzMjkxBG1zZ0lkAzE5NDY4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE5NTc4NDkwMQ--?act=reply&messageNum=19468>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave <theschemer@...> writes:
> Thanks for the info. I am running Windows but I guess I can convert a 
> spare pc to run Linux as I wanted to one day anyhow.

If you want the adventure, you could still try gEDA/pcb ;-)

> I also have a Mac but it doesn't get used much.

If it's OS/X, you can run gEDA/PCB on that.

> So what is the best for Windows?

You could try Kicad; it is often recommended for beginners.

> Eagle by Cadsoft or Express PCB or something else?

Neither of these are free, unless you're willing to accept some (I
think unreasonable) limitations on what you can do with them.

> Isn't there 2 or 3 sizes of drills that are most often used so I
> could buy a bunch of those sizes?

I don't know what sizes *you* use, so I can't say.  I'd buy the random
selection and see what you use the most.  I use the 13, 25, and 35 the
most, but that's just because of the parts I use, and I eventually end
up using pretty much all the sizes anyway.

> I have a drill press so I am set there.

Beware that large drill presses may have too much runout (sideways
motion) for those small bits; they're quite brittle.  You'll have to
try and see.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:

> Thanks for the info. I am running Windows but I guess I can convert a
> spare pc to run Linux as I wanted to one day anyhow.

Ubuntu is pretty easy to set up, and if you go to Applications -> Add new
software, you'll find all the gEDA tools if you search on all packages -
all you do is select them and hit go, and as if by magic they all get
installed (under Education for some reason, I suppose they are
educational!) The Ubuntu install disc is also a livecd so you can give
Ubuntu a try before committing to install.

I also know Fedora has the gEDA tools in its main repository as well.

>  Isn't there 2 or 3 sizes of
> drills that are most often used so I could buy a bunch of those sizes?

I almost exclusively use 1mm and 0.8mm drills - 0.8mm for through hole
components, 1mm for jumpers and IDC connectors etc. which have bigger
pins. Larger sizes are all available in the hardware store in those drill
bit kits that have the typical common sizes for wood working and metal
working.

I find the HSS bits actually last quite a long time, I've never felt the
need for fancy tungsten carbide bits.

>Dylan Smith wrote:
 >Ubuntu is pretty easy to set up, and if you go to Applications -> Add new
 > software, you'll find all the gEDA tools if you search on all packages -
 > all you do is select them and hit go, and as if by magic they all get
 > installed (under Education for some reason, I suppose they are
 > educational!) The Ubuntu install disc is also a live cd so you can give
 > Ubuntu a try before committing to install.
 >
 > I also know Fedora has the gEDA tools in its main repository as well.
 >
The last time I tried Linux was RedHat 5.2 and 6.5 :) I do however have 
some more recent versions of Ubuntu that I ordered (v 6.06) in case I 
got time. I may set me up a Linux box on an older 1.4 Amd I got from 
someone when they upgraded. But will probably try some Windows PCB stuff 
first at least till after the holidays.
 >
 > I almost exclusively use 1mm and 0.8mm drills - 0.8mm for through hole
 > components, 1mm for jumpers and IDC connectors etc. which have bigger
 > pins. Larger sizes are all available in the hardware store in those drill
 > bit kits that have the typical common sizes for wood working and metal
 > working.
 >
 > I find the HSS bits actually last quite a long time, I've never felt the
 > need for fancy tungsten carbide bits.
 >

I had a bunch of carbide drills but broke them all with freehand dremel 
work on various items :-)  This size info will help if I see a deal on a 
quantity. I amy try the hss too as I can resharpen those.
Thanks,
Dave

DJ Delorie wrote:
 >
 > If you want the adventure, you could still try gEDA/pcb ;-)
 >
 > > I also have a Mac but it doesn't get used much.
 >
 > If it's OS/X, you can run gEDA/PCB on that.
 >

I may try gEDA/pcb but probably not the first thing I try :)
The Mac is OSX but has no printer. I couldn't figure out how to get it 
to print on my little network :(

 > You could try Kicad; it is often recommended for beginners.
 >
 > > Eagle by Cadsoft or Express PCB or something else?
 >
 > Neither of these are free, unless you're willing to accept some (I
 > think unreasonable) limitations on what you can do with them.

I will check out Kicad and give it a try. I am just going to be doing 
simple stuff for a while or maybe thats as far as I will progress. Thats 
why I thought Eagle or Express would work for single sided boards with 
less than 100 connections etc...but I guess once I got better and needed 
the limitations removed, the free part goes away.

 > > Isn't there 2 or 3 sizes of drills that are most often used so I
 > > could buy a bunch of those sizes?
 >
 > I don't know what sizes *you* use, so I can't say. I'd buy the random
 > selection and see what you use the most. I use the 13, 25, and 35 the
 > most, but that's just because of the parts I use, and I eventually end
 > up using pretty much all the sizes anyway.
 >
Sounds good. Get a kit then buy individuals of the ones I break first :)

 > > I have a drill press so I am set there.
 >
 > Beware that large drill presses may have too much runout (sideways
 > motion) for those small bits; they're quite brittle. You'll have to
 > try and see.
 >

I got one of those radial bench top Craftsman ones but I agree the 
run-out can be an issue and needs to be checked. I also have that mini 
drill press adapter from the flea market I will see if my dremel will 
fit and how the run-out is on that.
Thanks,
Dave

If you are drilling by hand, even in a drill press, the carbide bits 
will break pretty often. At the cost, they are not worth it. I use 
just the High Speed steel bits, not the carbon steel. I also 
resharpen the bits. Use a fine stone on a bench grinder (about 100 
grit). Use a magnifier to look at the point angle and relief angle. 
Look at a new bit and try to dulicate the angles. It may at first 
seem imposible to sharpen bits that small but if you hold the bit 
down and tword you with the flute paralell to the floor, and just 
barely touch the bit to the wheel they come out good enough. I use 
mostly #62 bits for the thru hole and 1/16 for things like terminal 
strips.

RD


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Smith <dyls@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the info. I am running Windows but I guess I can 
convert a
> > spare pc to run Linux as I wanted to one day anyhow.
> 
> Ubuntu is pretty easy to set up, and if you go to Applications -> 
Add new
> software, you'll find all the gEDA tools if you search on all 
packages -
> all you do is select them and hit go, and as if by magic they all 
get
> installed (under Education for some reason, I suppose they are
> educational!) The Ubuntu install disc is also a livecd so you can 
give
> Ubuntu a try before committing to install.
> 
> I also know Fedora has the gEDA tools in its main repository as 
well.
> 
> >  Isn't there 2 or 3 sizes of
> > drills that are most often used so I could buy a bunch of those 
sizes?
> 
> I almost exclusively use 1mm and 0.8mm drills - 0.8mm for through 
hole
> components, 1mm for jumpers and IDC connectors etc. which have 
bigger
> pins. Larger sizes are all available in the hardware store in those 
drill
> bit kits that have the typical common sizes for wood working and 
metal
> working.
> 
> I find the HSS bits actually last quite a long time, I've never 
felt the
> need for fancy tungsten carbide bits.
>

rdheiliger wrote:
 >
 > If you are drilling by hand, even in a drill press, the carbide bits
 > will break pretty often. At the cost, they are not worth it. I use
 > just the High Speed steel bits, not the carbon steel. I also
 > resharpen the bits. Use a fine stone on a bench grinder (about 100
 > grit). Use a magnifier to look at the point angle and relief angle.
 > Look at a new bit and try to dulicate the angles. It may at first
 > seem imposible to sharpen bits that small but if you hold the bit
 > down and tword you with the flute paralell to the floor, and just
 > barely touch the bit to the wheel they come out good enough. I use
 > mostly #62 bits for the thru hole and 1/16 for things like terminal
 > strips.
 >
 > RD

Thanks for the input. I have sharpened many a drill but not too many 
small ones like these.
Dave

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Dave" <theschemer@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie question


> Thanks for the info. I am running Windows but I guess I can convert a
> spare pc to run Linux as I wanted to one day anyhow. I also have a Mac
> but it doesn't get used much. So what is the best for Windows? Eagle by
> Cadsoft or Express PCB or something else? Isn't there 2 or 3 sizes of
> drills that are most often used so I could buy a bunch of those sizes? I
> have seen the kits before but figured I would not use most of the drills
> (at least not for circuit boards). But the price is right at Grizzly.
> :)  I have a drill press so I am set there. I think I even have a
> portable drill press I picked up at a flea market and I need to see if
> it will work with my Dremel. That is a nice drilling setup that you made
> though...quite ingenious.

0.7 mm drills are best for ICs and most other components. 1 mm are useful 
for terminals.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Leon wrote:
 >
 > 0.7 mm drills are best for ICs and most other components. 1 mm are useful
 > for terminals.
 >
 > Leon
 > --
 > Leon Heller
 > Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
 > Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
 > Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
 > leon355@...
 > http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
> 

Thanks Leon,
 It looks like I will end up with a good range of sizes based on the 
early responses here.
Dave

p.s. I have a Suzuki too :) DRZ400S

On 23/11/2007, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

>  0.7 mm drills are best for ICs and most other components. 1 mm are useful
>  for terminals.

And, if you're drilling holes for 1mm square pins, don't forget Mr Pythagoras...
We've all done it, I'm sure. Matters less on a non-PTH board, of course.

Steve

Steve Wiseman wrote:
 >
 > On 23/11/2007, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:
 >
 > > 0.7 mm drills are best for ICs and most other components. 1 mm are 
useful
 > > for terminals.
 >
 > And, if you're drilling holes for 1mm square pins, don't forget Mr 
Pythagoras...
 > We've all done it, I'm sure. Matters less on a non-PTH board, of course.
 >
 > Steve


Is he a mathematician or Murphys brother :) I know what you mean...
Thanks,
Dave

"Steve Wiseman" <sjwiseman@...> writes:
> And, if you're drilling holes for 1mm square pins, don't forget Mr
> Pythagoras...

I measure the diagonals with a dial caliper, and it's not always what
the math says it should be.  Also, I like my holes a tiny bit snug, so
I can turn the board over for soldering without the parts falling out.

It does mean I need a wider range of drill bits, though.

On Friday 23 November 2007 10:12, Dave wrote:
>  >Dylan Smith wrote:
>  >Ubuntu is pretty easy to set up, and if you go to Applications -> Add new
>  > software, you'll find all the gEDA tools if you search on all packages -
>  > all you do is select them and hit go, and as if by magic they all get
>  > installed (under Education for some reason, I suppose they are
>  > educational!) The Ubuntu install disc is also a live cd so you can give
>  > Ubuntu a try before committing to install.
>  >
>  > I also know Fedora has the gEDA tools in its main repository as well.
>
> The last time I tried Linux was RedHat 5.2 and 6.5 :) I do however have
> some more recent versions of Ubuntu that I ordered (v 6.06) in case I
> got time. I may set me up a Linux box on an older 1.4 Amd I got from
> someone when they upgraded. But will probably try some Windows PCB stuff
> first at least till after the holidays.
>
>  > I almost exclusively use 1mm and 0.8mm drills - 0.8mm for through hole
>  > components, 1mm for jumpers and IDC connectors etc. which have bigger
>  > pins. Larger sizes are all available in the hardware store in those
>  > drill bit kits that have the typical common sizes for wood working and
>  > metal working.
>  >
>  > I find the HSS bits actually last quite a long time, I've never felt the
>  > need for fancy tungsten carbide bits.
>
> I had a bunch of carbide drills but broke them all with freehand dremel
> work on various items :-)  This size info will help if I see a deal on a
> quantity. I amy try the hss too as I can resharpen those.
> Thanks,
> Dave

The latest Ubuntu works well with gEDA. It also automagiclly sets up for dual 
boot if WinXP is already on the box. I used Orcad SDT nearly 20 years ago and 
so find gschem (gEDA schematic) very easy to use. It's also easy to create 
new symbols. I've used PDB a bit, but have yet to figure out how to create 
new footprints for PCB.

On the windows side I haven't found any free schematic capture software that I 
like nearly as well as gschem. FreePCB is quite nice for board design. I find 
the FreePCB footprint editor really easy to use. There is a Yahoo group, bit 
it's pretty well uninhabited.

Lately I have done a couple of boards using gschem for the schematic capture 
and netlist cration. I then manually edited the netlist to meet FreePCB 
requitements. FreePCB expects the first line of the file to be *PADS-PCB*. I 
am contemplatig a perl script to map footprint names from PCB to FreePCB  and 
otherwise "fix" the netlist file, but so far it's only an idea.
-- 
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007, keith wrote:
> new symbols. I've used PDB a bit, but have yet to figure out how to create
> new footprints for PCB.

It's really, really easy. Just draw it (use vias for pin through hole,
lines of appropriate length/width for SMD pads), select all, cut selection
to buffer, then select 'convert buffer to element' from the Buffer menu.

The manual at http://pcb.sourceforge.net expands on it a bit (including
how to make it appear in the component library automatically - you can
also simply load random components from arbitrary places by loading an
element into the buffer from the File menu).

keith wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > The latest Ubuntu works well with gEDA. It also automagiclly sets up 
for dual
 > boot if WinXP is already on the box. I used Orcad SDT nearly 20 years 
ago and
 > so find gschem (gEDA schematic) very easy to use. It's also easy to 
create
 > new symbols. I've used PDB a bit, but have yet to figure out how to 
create
 > new footprints for PCB.
 >
 > On the windows side I haven't found any free schematic capture 
software that I
 > like nearly as well as gschem. FreePCB is quite nice for board 
design. I find
 > the FreePCB footprint editor really easy to use. There is a Yahoo 
group, bit
 > it's pretty well uninhabited.
 >
 > Lately I have done a couple of boards using gschem for the schematic 
capture
 > and netlist cration. I then manually edited the netlist to meet FreePCB
 > requitements. FreePCB expects the first line of the file to be 
*PADS-PCB*. I
 > am contemplatig a perl script to map footprint names from PCB to 
FreePCB and
 > otherwise "fix" the netlist file, but so far it's only an idea.
 > --
 > Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

I just tried Ubuntu v6.x as I had it on CD and it looks great. I am 
going to download the latest version so I can do the automagic dual boot 
on my old spare pc.
Thanks,
Dave
> _._,___