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Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-17 by Brad

I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works, to better mix it.  I
actually like working with this method - the resulting etchant is way less
unpleasant than ferric or the HCl/peroxide stuff.  It is way slower,
although I've found adding peroxide/salt seems to speed things up a bit.

 

The only negative I've found is that peroxide typically is only available in
small 300-500ml bottles, which depending on which store you raid cost
anywhere from $1.99 to $3.99 CDN each.  And you kinda get weird 'is this guy
a terrorist?' looks when you check out six or eight of em at a time.  I've
looked around for 'bulk' peroxide but have only found industrial stuff that
is at 32% (vs 3%).. wondering how that would change things in the reaction?

 

I'm also wondering why it seems like I can keep the reaction going
indefinitely if I constantly intervene to stir, add a bit of salt, add
peroxide, etc.. but once I let it go it cannot be restarted again.  Also
curious why sometimes I get a blue coloured etchant at the end, whereas
other times I get this foamy, nasty green.

 

I'd love to figure this out more and refine it.  The real obstacle is the
cost and small quantities available of peroxide.  I'd love to find a way to
buy that that doesn't leave me feeling like a weirdo.  :)

 

Brad

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-17 by Norm

When you mix the salt (sodium chloride, NaCl) with vinegar (5% acetic acid, HAc),\ufffd the result is\ufffd weak homemade hydrochloric acid (HCl) and some leftovers.\ufffd It's slower because it's weaker, and needs replenishment as the Cl ions are used up in the etching reaction (more salt = more Cl ions). Might as well start with the pool muriatic acid (HCl), admittedly stronger than the vinegar/salt, since that's what you wind up with anyway, just weaker.\ufffd Beauty shop suppliers will have higher concentration peroxide in quart bottles for reasonable prices. Their concentration is measured by 'volume'\ufffd -\ufffd typically,\ufffd 40 volume = ~12%, IIRC, so use 1/4 as much as the 3%.\ufffd The overall solution will be stronger, since there is less water than using the 3%. You just use less of the higher concentration peroxide.\ufffd\ufffd Both the pool acid and higher concentration peroxide are quite caustic/corrosive, and need to be treated with real care and respect.\ufffd Rubber/plastic apron and gloves, safety glasses!\ufffd Ventilation!\ufffd And don't use it (or ferric chloride, for that matter) around your tools - the vapors from an exposed etch tank will leave a nice rust patina on the iron surfaces!

If you can find it, Sechelle had written an excellent article on CuCl etching, explaining the chemical process.\ufffd It seem to have disappeared from it's old internet sites.

Norm

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 7/17/2017 9:26 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
\ufffd

I\ufffdm trying to wrap my head around how this works, to better mix it.\ufffd I actually like working with this method \ufffd the resulting etchant is way less unpleasant than ferric or the HCl/peroxide stuff.\ufffd It is way slower, although I\ufffdve found adding peroxide/salt seems to speed things up a bit.

\ufffd

The only negative I\ufffdve found is that peroxide typically is only available in small 300-500ml bottles, which depending on which store you raid cost anywhere from $1.99 to $3.99 CDN each.\ufffd And you kinda get weird \ufffdis this guy a terrorist?\ufffd looks when you check out six or eight of em at a time.\ufffd I\ufffdve looked around for \ufffdbulk\ufffd peroxide but have only found industrial stuff that is at 32% (vs 3%).. wondering how that would change things in the reaction?

\ufffd

I\ufffdm also wondering why it seems like I can keep the reaction going indefinitely if I constantly intervene to stir, add a bit of salt, add peroxide, etc.. but once I let it go it cannot be restarted again.\ufffd Also curious why sometimes I get a blue coloured etchant at the end, whereas other times I get this foamy, nasty green.

\ufffd

I\ufffdd love to figure this out more and refine it.\ufffd The real obstacle is the cost and small quantities available of peroxide.\ufffd I\ufffdd love to find a way to buy that that doesn\ufffdt leave me feeling like a weirdo.\ufffd J

\ufffd

Brad

\ufffd



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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-17 by Brad

Thanks Norm.

 

Yeah, I'm just reluctant about using actual HCl for the reasons you
mentioned.  I'm generally pretty careful but I'm also a bit accident prone
and I don't want to wreck something, or myself, messing around with that
kind of acid.  I've accidentally splashed this vinegar/salt/peroxide
solution on me and not even slight irritation.  I'm sure that wouldn't be
the case with HCl.

 

What I'm curious about though is that supposedly the reaction will still
work *without* salt.. just takes longer?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 10:46 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

 

  

When you mix the salt (sodium chloride, NaCl) with vinegar (5% acetic acid,
HAc),  the result is  weak homemade hydrochloric acid (HCl) and some
leftovers.  It's slower because it's weaker, and needs replenishment as the
Cl ions are used up in the etching reaction (more salt = more Cl ions).
Might as well start with the pool muriatic acid (HCl), admittedly stronger
than the vinegar/salt, since that's what you wind up with anyway, just
weaker.  Beauty shop suppliers will have higher concentration peroxide in
quart bottles for reasonable prices. Their concentration is measured by
'volume'  -  typically,  40 volume = ~12%, IIRC, so use 1/4 as much as the
3%.  The overall solution will be stronger, since there is less water than
using the 3%. You just use less of the higher concentration peroxide.   Both
the pool acid and higher concentration peroxide are quite caustic/corrosive,
and need to be treated with real care and respect.  Rubber/plastic apron and
gloves, safety glasses!  Ventilation!  And don't use it (or ferric chloride,
for that matter) around your tools - the vapors from an exposed etch tank
will leave a nice rust patina on the iron surfaces!

If you can find it, Sechelle had written an excellent article on CuCl
etching, explaining the chemical process.  It seem to have disappeared from
it's old internet sites. 

Norm

 

On 7/17/2017 9:26 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@...
<mailto:unclefalter@...>  [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

  

I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works, to better mix it.  I
actually like working with this method - the resulting etchant is way less
unpleasant than ferric or the HCl/peroxide stuff.  It is way slower,
although I've found adding peroxide/salt seems to speed things up a bit.

 

The only negative I've found is that peroxide typically is only available in
small 300-500ml bottles, which depending on which store you raid cost
anywhere from $1.99 to $3.99 CDN each.  And you kinda get weird 'is this guy
a terrorist?' looks when you check out six or eight of em at a time.  I've
looked around for 'bulk' peroxide but have only found industrial stuff that
is at 32% (vs 3%).. wondering how that would change things in the reaction?

 

I'm also wondering why it seems like I can keep the reaction going
indefinitely if I constantly intervene to stir, add a bit of salt, add
peroxide, etc.. but once I let it go it cannot be restarted again.  Also
curious why sometimes I get a blue coloured etchant at the end, whereas
other times I get this foamy, nasty green.

 

I'd love to figure this out more and refine it.  The real obstacle is the
cost and small quantities available of peroxide.  I'd love to find a way to
buy that that doesn't leave me feeling like a weirdo.  :)

 

Brad

 

 

 


 
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-17 by Norm

I'm not a chemist - (College Chem101 in 1958).\ufffd That's why I referenced the article - I'll see if I can find it again - might even be in the files in this group.\ufffd

As I understand it, the etching is a conversion of metallic copper to copper chloride, which is soluble.\ufffd Therefore, the free chlorine ion is required.\ufffd I don't think the chlorine in the HCl is free to combine.\ufffd The formation of the copper chloride is what turns the solution blue-green (also why ferrous chloride turns greenish as it is used).

Anyway, the HCl + H2O2 works for me, it's cheap, and just about inexhaustible (Bubble air through it\ufffd - converts the CuCL to CuO (or some such) and releases the Cl ions for re-use.\ufffd Adding the small amounts of H2O2 would also add the needed oxygen to regenerate the solution without the bubbles.

Again, not a chemist, but this is what I've read/experienced.

Norm


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 7/17/2017 11:14 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
\ufffd

Thanks Norm.

\ufffd

Yeah, I\ufffdm just reluctant about using actual HCl for the reasons you mentioned.\ufffd I\ufffdm generally pretty careful but I\ufffdm also a bit accident prone and I don\ufffdt want to wreck something, or myself, messing around with that kind of acid.\ufffd I\ufffdve accidentally splashed this vinegar/salt/peroxide solution on me and not even slight irritation.\ufffd I\ufffdm sure that wouldn\ufffdt be the case with HCl.

\ufffd

What I\ufffdm curious about though is that supposedly the reaction will still work *without* salt.. just takes longer?

\ufffd




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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-18 by Mitch Davis

Hello fellow home brewers,

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 2:26 AM, 'Brad9; unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

the resulting etchant is way less unpleasant than ferric


It is possible to etch very fast and very well if you use concentrated ferric chloride. It is easy to do and generates a tiny amount of waste.


Forget about baths of the stuff. When you're done, you have one cotton ball and a tbsp of etchant to deal with.

I have tried ammonium persulphate, traditional ferric chloride baths, and HCl/H₂O₂, and this method IMO beats them all.

Mitch.

Re: Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-18 by Larry Battraw

I know the OP appears to be in Canada, however here in the US I recently found it's possible to buy 35% HP via Amazon, and I was able to get a quart of it delivered for about $25, which didn't seem terrible given the convenience and not having to deal with the weak stuff you get at a drug store. Apparently it's being used as a medication or something of the sort, as well as in water treatment. It's sold in smaller sizes but naturally the more you buy the less it costs, up to sellers that will ship out 6 gallons at once for around $180.
Using 3% is a headache and higher concentrations allow for faster reactions, plus you avoid dealing with large amounts of liquid that build up over time since you have to add so much 3% compared to higher strengths, especially when used to treat Cu-HCl.

Best wishes-
Larry

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-18 by Brad

I tried this when I got my first bottle of ferric.  It didn’t work… it took half an hour of continuous scrubbing with the brush to get anything going… seemed like it would take hours.  Is there a particular type of sponge you use?  Bear in mind, the boards I’m doing are quite large by comparison to what I see hobbyists online doing.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 11:39 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

 

  

Hello fellow home brewers,

 

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 2:26 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... <mailto:unclefalter@...>  [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:

 

the resulting etchant is way less unpleasant than ferric

 

It is possible to etch very fast and very well if you use concentrated ferric chloride.  It is easy to do and generates a tiny amount of waste.

 

  http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/

 

Forget about baths of the stuff  When you're done, you have one cotton ball and a tbsp of etchant to deal with.

 

I have tried ammonium persulphate, traditional ferric chloride baths, and HCl/H₂O₂, and this method IMO beats them all.

 

Mitch.



 


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-07-18 by Brad

Sorry.. I meant to say ‘sponge’, not brush.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:16 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

 

  

I tried this when I got my first bottle of ferric.  It didn’t work… it took half an hour of continuous scrubbing with the brush to get anything going… seemed like it would take hours.  Is there a particular type of sponge you use?  Bear in mind, the boards I’m doing are quite large by comparison to what I see hobbyists online doing.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>  [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 11:39 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

 

  

Hello fellow home brewers,

 

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 2:26 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... <mailto:unclefalter@...>  [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:

 

the resulting etchant is way less unpleasant than ferric

 

It is possible to etch very fast and very well if you use concentrated ferric chloride.  It is easy to do and generates a tiny amount of waste.

 

  http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/

 

Forget about baths of the stuff  When you're done, you have one cotton ball and a tbsp of etchant to deal with.

 

I have tried ammonium persulphate, traditional ferric chloride baths, and HCl/H₂O₂, and this method IMO beats them all.

 

Mitch.

 


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Re: Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-08-03 by duwaynes@...

You can get much stronger HP at your local beauty supply store. It is labeled as developer and comes in different concentrations or volumes. 10 volume 3% 20 volume 6% 30 volume 9% 40 volume 12%.
I usually get 16oz bottles of 40 volume clear developer for around $4.00 or less if on sale.
DuWayne

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

2017-08-07 by Brad

Thanks!!

 

It’s interesting how different combinations of the three components changes the way the etch process happens.  If I go lighter on salt and more peroxide the etchant turns a deep green and there’s lots of flecks (precipitate?).  If I let that sit after using it, it turns blue.

 

More salt generates more fizz and seems to keep the etchant blue, but does nothing to improve speed.

 

More vinegar seems to do nothing at all.  

 

It seems like if I keep adding copper and a bit of peroxide I can keep the reaction going for a long time.. but when it stops it doesn’t seem able to be revived.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Salt/Vinegar/Peroxide

 

  

You can get much stronger HP at your local beauty supply store.  It is labeled as developer and comes in different concentrations or volumes.  10 volume 3%  20 volume 6%  30 volume 9% 40 volume 12%.

I usually get  16oz bottles of  40 volume clear developer for around $4.00 or less if on sale.

DuWayne



 


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