Homebrew_PCBs

I'm asking this on behalf of a friend

I make my own PCBs by a 'photo' process, which involves printing a
transparency from the PCB artwork I've created. Just plain black/clear.

This used to work perfectly when I first did it in the '90s. Using an
Epson Stylus printer - long since gone. The next printer - a Canon - was
just about OK, but that's gone now too.

I've now got an Epson XP-415 which simply doesn't print a dense enough
black - despite playing with all the settings.

I've kept some of those old transparencies from the older printers, and
you can clearly see the difference holding them up to the light.

I've also got a cheap mono laser printer - and that if anything is worse.

Can anyone recommend a printer I can buy new and they know will work
properly for this task?

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/

Hi Stuart:

I had essentially the same problem using a cheap HP Inkjet printer.

My solution was to print my PCB images (artwork) on a good grade of
tracing paper.
I make two (yes two) copies. The copies will be exact images of each other.
Then, I overlay one copy over another. I can get perfect registration
between
the two identical copies.

This technique increases (doubles) the black density of the inkjet ink.
I then use photoresist coated copper-clad PCB stock and conventional
expose-develop-etch.

I etch with muriatic acid/peroxide solution.

Works good for me.

Roland F. Harriston
*********************

On 02/02/17 03:57, lists Stuartlists@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

> I'm asking this on behalf of a friend
>
> I make my own PCBs by a 'photo' process, which involves printing a
> transparency from the PCB artwork I've created. Just plain black/clear.
>
> This used to work perfectly when I first did it in the '90s. Using an
> Epson Stylus printer - long since gone. The next printer - a Canon - was
> just about OK, but that's gone now too.
>
> I've now got an Epson XP-415 which simply doesn't print a dense enough
> black - despite playing with all the settings.
>
> I've kept some of those old transparencies from the older printers, and
> you can clearly see the difference holding them up to the light.
>
> I've also got a cheap mono laser printer - and that if anything is worse.
>
> Can anyone recommend a printer I can buy new and they know will work
> properly for this task?

I'm using the gutenprint driver in linux and can get high ink density on an
epson Artisan 1430.

Some types of settings can override each other preventing high density if you
don't do it right.

Use your laser printer to make transparencies.

When I was trying toner transfer to make PCBs I bought some "Green TRF" from the "PCB Fab - in a - Box" site.  It is used to further  protect the toner while etching the board. I also bought some "Black TRF" and some "White TRF" to use in making labels. They apparently no longer sell the black. 

I have used the "Black TRF" on laser transparencies to make a negative. It gives blacker areas than any inkjet or laser toner could ever possibly do. You can run it through any laminator, even a cheap $20 one, It does not need to be one capable of handling PCBs.

The foil is available in many colors from various sources including Amazon and eBay. Search for "reactive foil". One widely available brand seems to be "Heidi Swapp Minc Reactive Foil". Probably any color would work although the pigment colors may work better than metallic colors. One comment on Amazon about the black foil in particular said it was flimsier than the others and harder to use. Any tiny pin holes can be touched up with a Sharpie or other fine tip pen.

Craig

Cheap TRF experiment:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/trf/index.html

 

Use your laser printer to make transparencies.

When I was trying toner transfer to make PCBs I bought some "Green TRF" from the "PCB Fab - in a - Box" site.  It is used to further  protect the toner while etching the board. I also bought some "Black TRF" and some "White TRF" to use in making labels. They apparently no longer sell the black. 

I have used the "Black TRF" on laser transparencies to make a negative. It gives blacker areas than any inkjet or laser toner could ever possibly do. You can run it through any laminator, even a cheap $20 one, It does not need to be one capable of handling PCBs.

The foil is available in many colors from various sources including Amazon and eBay. Search for "reactive foil". One widely available brand seems to be "Heidi Swapp Minc Reactive Foil". Probably any color would work although the pigment colors may work better than metallic colors. One comment on Amazon about the black foil in particular said it was flimsier than the others and harder to use. Any tiny pin holes can be touched up with a Sharpie or other fine tip pen.

Craig

I did a search on toner density spray, to see what it is. From several sites that I found, unsurprisingly, that it appears to be a combination of solvents like toluene and acetone. Further research brought me to this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/675026_Enhancing_the_contrast__density__of_laser_generated__toner__PCB_transparency_artwork_w__acetone.html

After reading it, it reminds me of two other activities that have been discussed on this forum. The first is the "setting" of the toner on Mark Lerman's direct laser print to the board, where he suspends the board over acetone to let the fumes reflow the toner, and the second is the cold toner transfer process that was discussed a while back. This also used acetone with denatured alcohol.

The thread describes various way to reflow the toner, but in  the end, they are variations of getting a small amount of solvent onto the surface, and letting it reflow the toner before evaporating. This thread brings us full circle to our other activities, that show that acetone, and possibly, some other solvents have the capability to improve the toner coverage in several different approaches to making PCBs.

Other items of interest in the thread have to do with testing printers and scanners for resolution. Some nice, detailed instructions.

Harvey

 

Here is my setup:

* LaserJet 2100 - bought this refurb for about $80, including refilled cartridge

* LaserJer has ethernet module (otherwise it's LPT only, difficult to drive in this day and age)

* Drafting paper

* Set the density to 5 (default is 3, tried to do this via the new Universal Printer driver and failed, then did it by sending the specific escape codes via lpr to the network port where I have attached it)

I used to print two copies on the drafting paper and align and glue them perfectly. Worked well. Then I read about and bought a toner density spray. It's technically designed for transparencies, but works very well with the drafting printouts too.

I now only use only one copy. Blackness is perfect, going down to 12 mil traces every time and under than (e.g. for 0.65mm smd parts) with some care.

The critical part of my process now is getting a uniform thick coating (I use Positiv 20 on bare stock). Exposure and black opacity is no longer causing any troubles.

I was told by a 70 year old chemistry teacher that I should avoid using  ACETONE  because ACETONE is definitely a bad ass carcinogen.

any ideas here?

I always wear nitril gloves and run a low speed fan over the work for air flow when I do kitchen etching.

 

I did a search on toner density spray, to see what it is. From several sites that I found, unsurprisingly, that it appears to be a combination of solvents like toluene and acetone. Further research brought me to this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/675026_Enhancing_the_contrast__density__of_laser_generated__toner__PCB_transparency_artwork_w__acetone.html

After reading it, it reminds me of two other activities that have been discussed on this forum. The first is the "setting" of the toner on Mark Lerman's direct laser print to the board, where he suspends the board over acetone to let the fumes reflow the toner, and the second is the cold toner transfer process that was discussed a while back. This also used acetone with denatured alcohol.

The thread describes various way to reflow the toner, but in  the end, they are variations of getting a small amount of solvent onto the surface, and letting it reflow the toner before evaporating. This thread brings us full circle to our other activities, that show that acetone, and possibly, some other solvents have the capability to improve the toner coverage in several different approaches to making PCBs.

Other items of interest in the thread have to do with testing printers and scanners for resolution. Some nice, detailed instructions.

Harvey

On 2/2/2017 2:58 AM, Kamen Lilov kamenl@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Here is my setup:

* LaserJet 2100 - bought this refurb for about $80, including refilled cartridge

* LaserJer has ethernet module (otherwise it's LPT only, difficult to drive in this day and age)

* Drafting paper

* Set the density to 5 (default is 3, tried to do this via the new Universal Printer driver and failed, then did it by sending the specific escape codes via lpr to the network port where I have attached it)

I used to print two copies on the drafting paper and align and glue them perfectly. Worked well. Then I read about and bought a toner density spray. It's technically designed for transparencies, but works very well with the drafting printouts too.

I now only use only one copy. Blackness is perfect, going down to 12 mil traces every time and under than (e.g. for 0.65mm smd parts) with some care.

The critical part of my process now is getting a uniform thick coating (I use Positiv 20 on bare stock). Exposure and black opacity is no longer causing any troubles.

Rob,


I have found it useful to search the web for creditable, authoritative sources for questions like this. Wikipedia may not always fit those criteria, but it's a starting point:


< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone >


Here's one with a bit more depth, a link to a document from the US CDC, "Toxicological Profile for Acetone" (276 pages!):


< https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp21.pdf >


Quoting paragraph 2.2.1.8 Cancer:
"In a retrospective mortality study of 948 employees (697 men, 251 women) of a cellulose fiber plant where acetone was used as the only solvent, no significant excess risk of death from any cause, including malignant neoplasm, was found when compared with rates for the U.S. general population (Ott et al. 1983a, 1983b). The workers had been employed at the plant for at least 3 months to 23 years. Industrial hygiene surveys found that median time-weighted-average acetone concentrations were 380, 770, and 1,070 ppm, based on job categories."


Hope that helps,


John, KU4AF
Pittsboro, NC

On Feb 2, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:


> I was told by a 70 year old chemistry teacher that I should avoid using ACETONE because ACETONE is definitely a bad ass carcinogen.
>
> any ideas here?
>
> I always wear nitril gloves and run a low speed fan over the work for air flow when I do kitchen etching.

I am always blown away when I go into the Nail parlor that my wife goes to. The smell of acetone in overpowering. It doesn't seem to bother anyone that they are inhaling the stuff. I use it, but only in a well ventilated area, and always keep it covered.

At one time, acetone was blamed for things that apparently were not true. It is shown as having low toxicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone

Just remember not to mix hydrogen peroxide and acetone together when you discard fluids, they form Acetone Peroxide which is extremely unstable and dangerous.

Harvey

 

No, acetone is not a carcinogen.

It is similar to ethanol in toxicity, your liver can break down small quantities.

ST

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:26 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I was told by a 70 year old chemistry teacher that I should avoid using  ACETONE  because ACETONE is definitely a bad ass carcinogen.

any ideas here?

I always wear nitril gloves and run a low speed fan over the work for air flow when I do kitchen etching.

On 02/02/2017 11:59 AM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I did a search on toner density spray, to see what it is. From several sites that I found, unsurprisingly, that it appears to be a combination of solvents like toluene and acetone. Further research brought me to this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_ 10_22/675026_Enhancing_the_ contrast__density__of_laser_ generated__toner__PCB_ transparency_artwork_w__ acetone.html

After reading it, it reminds me of two other activities that have been discussed on this forum. The first is the "setting" of the toner on Mark Lerman's direct laser print to the board, where he suspends the board over acetone to let the fumes reflow the toner, and the second is the cold toner transfer process that was discussed a while back. This also used acetone with denatured alcohol.

The thread describes various way to reflow the toner, but in  the end, they are variations of getting a small amount of solvent onto the surface, and letting it reflow the toner before evaporating. This thread brings us full circle to our other activities, that show that acetone, and possibly, some other solvents have the capability to improve the toner coverage in several different approaches to making PCBs.

Other items of interest in the thread have to do with testing printers and scanners for resolution. Some nice, detailed instructions.

Harvey

On 2/2/2017 2:58 AM, Kamen Lilov kamenl@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Here is my setup:

* LaserJet 2100 - bought this refurb for about $80, including refilled cartridge

* LaserJer has ethernet module (otherwise it's LPT only, difficult to drive in this day and age)

* Drafting paper

* Set the density to 5 (default is 3, tried to do this via the new Universal Printer driver and failed, then did it by sending the specific escape codes via lpr to the network port where I have attached it)

I used to print two copies on the drafting paper and align and glue them perfectly. Worked well. Then I read about and bought a toner density spray. It's technically designed for transparencies, but works very well with the drafting printouts too.

I now only use only one copy. Blackness is perfect, going down to 12 mil traces every time and under than (e.g. for 0.65mm smd parts) with some care.

The critical part of my process now is getting a uniform thick coating (I use Positiv 20 on bare stock). Exposure and black opacity is no longer causing any troubles.

wow, what would you mix it with during the cocktail hour !!  hi hi

 

No, acetone is not a carcinogen.

It is similar to ethanol in toxicity, your liver can break down small quantities.

ST

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:26 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I was told by a 70 year old chemistry teacher that I should avoid using  ACETONE  because ACETONE is definitely a bad ass carcinogen.

any ideas here?

I always wear nitril gloves and run a low speed fan over the work for air flow when I do kitchen etching.

On 02/02/2017 11:59 AM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I did a search on toner density spray, to see what it is. From several sites that I found, unsurprisingly, that it appears to be a combination of solvents like toluene and acetone. Further research brought me to this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_ 10_22/675026_Enhancing_the_ contrast__density__of_laser_ generated__toner__PCB_ transparency_artwork_w__ acetone.html

After reading it, it reminds me of two other activities that have been discussed on this forum. The first is the "setting" of the toner on Mark Lerman's direct laser print to the board, where he suspends the board over acetone to let the fumes reflow the toner, and the second is the cold toner transfer process that was discussed a while back. This also used acetone with denatured alcohol.

The thread describes various way to reflow the toner, but in  the end, they are variations of getting a small amount of solvent onto the surface, and letting it reflow the toner before evaporating. This thread brings us full circle to our other activities, that show that acetone, and possibly, some other solvents have the capability to improve the toner coverage in several different approaches to making PCBs.

Other items of interest in the thread have to do with testing printers and scanners for resolution. Some nice, detailed instructions.

Harvey

On 2/2/2017 2:58 AM, Kamen Lilov kamenl@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Here is my setup:

* LaserJet 2100 - bought this refurb for about $80, including refilled cartridge

* LaserJer has ethernet module (otherwise it's LPT only, difficult to drive in this day and age)

* Drafting paper

* Set the density to 5 (default is 3, tried to do this via the new Universal Printer driver and failed, then did it by sending the specific escape codes via lpr to the network port where I have attached it)

I used to print two copies on the drafting paper and align and glue them perfectly. Worked well. Then I read about and bought a toner density spray. It's technically designed for transparencies, but works very well with the drafting printouts too.

I now only use only one copy. Blackness is perfect, going down to 12 mil traces every time and under than (e.g. for 0.65mm smd parts) with some care.

The critical part of my process now is getting a uniform thick coating (I use Positiv 20 on bare stock). Exposure and black opacity is no longer causing any troubles.

On 2/2/17, Stefan Trethan stefan_trethan@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> No, acetone is not a carcinogen.
> It is similar to ethanol in toxicity, your liver can break down small
> quantities.

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/substances/toxsubstance.asp?toxid=1

Cancer Classification: None
Chemical Classification: Volatile organic compounds

FC

thank you

 

No, acetone is not a carcinogen.

It is similar to ethanol in toxicity, your liver can break down small quantities.

ST

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:26 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I was told by a 70 year old chemistry teacher that I should avoid using  ACETONE  because ACETONE is definitely a bad ass carcinogen.

any ideas here?

I always wear nitril gloves and run a low speed fan over the work for air flow when I do kitchen etching.

On 02/02/2017 11:59 AM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I did a search on toner density spray, to see what it is. From several sites that I found, unsurprisingly, that it appears to be a combination of solvents like toluene and acetone. Further research brought me to this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_ 10_22/675026_Enhancing_the_ contrast__density__of_laser_ generated__toner__PCB_ transparency_artwork_w__ acetone.html

After reading it, it reminds me of two other activities that have been discussed on this forum. The first is the "setting" of the toner on Mark Lerman's direct laser print to the board, where he suspends the board over acetone to let the fumes reflow the toner, and the second is the cold toner transfer process that was discussed a while back. This also used acetone with denatured alcohol.

The thread describes various way to reflow the toner, but in  the end, they are variations of getting a small amount of solvent onto the surface, and letting it reflow the toner before evaporating. This thread brings us full circle to our other activities, that show that acetone, and possibly, some other solvents have the capability to improve the toner coverage in several different approaches to making PCBs.

Other items of interest in the thread have to do with testing printers and scanners for resolution. Some nice, detailed instructions.

Harvey

On 2/2/2017 2:58 AM, Kamen Lilov kamenl@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Here is my setup:

* LaserJet 2100 - bought this refurb for about $80, including refilled cartridge

* LaserJer has ethernet module (otherwise it's LPT only, difficult to drive in this day and age)

* Drafting paper

* Set the density to 5 (default is 3, tried to do this via the new Universal Printer driver and failed, then did it by sending the specific escape codes via lpr to the network port where I have attached it)

I used to print two copies on the drafting paper and align and glue them perfectly. Worked well. Then I read about and bought a toner density spray. It's technically designed for transparencies, but works very well with the drafting printouts too.

I now only use only one copy. Blackness is perfect, going down to 12 mil traces every time and under than (e.g. for 0.65mm smd parts) with some care.

The critical part of my process now is getting a uniform thick coating (I use Positiv 20 on bare stock). Exposure and black opacity is no longer causing any troubles.

On 2/2/2017 3:32 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
wrote:

>
>
> I am always blown away when I go into the Nail parlor that my wife goes
> to. The smell of acetone in overpowering. It doesn't seem to bother
> anyone that they are inhaling the stuff. I use it, but only in a well
> ventilated area, and always keep it covered.
>

<snip>

Hello--

nail parlor workers are indeed exposed to a variety of chemical hazards:

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/nailsalons/

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/nailsalons/chemicalhazards.html

(In looking over the list, I noted "Quaternary ammonium compounds"--
one of these chemicals used in a room humidifier bacteriostat solution
sent me to the hospital with an anaphylactic-shock reaction. Very
scary!)

73--

Brad AA1IP

"Quats" are also common constituents of anti-bacterial soaps. Nasty stuff. They do kill 99.9% of the germs, but the 0.1% (thousands) left behind are the ones that aren't affected. Super-bugs. Evolution in action.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Thompson brad.thompson@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 8:59:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Printer Is ACETONE a carcinogen
>
> On 2/2/2017 3:32 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am always blown away when I go into the Nail parlor that my wife goes
> > to. The smell of acetone in overpowering. It doesn't seem to bother
> > anyone that they are inhaling the stuff. I use it, but only in a well
> > ventilated area, and always keep it covered.
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> Hello--
>
> nail parlor workers are indeed exposed to a variety of chemical hazards:
>
> https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/nailsalons/
>
> https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/nailsalons/chemicalhazards.html
>
> (In looking over the list, I noted "Quaternary ammonium compounds"--
> one of these chemicals used in a room humidifier bacteriostat solution
> sent me to the hospital with an anaphylactic-shock reaction. Very
> scary!)
>
> 73--
>
> Brad AA1IP
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Brad Thompson <brad.thompson@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I asked my sister about acetone.   She uses it everyday at the beauty shop where she works, doing fingernails, pedicures, hairstyling.    She said they don't have ventilators where it is used.   So I guess acetone is NOT known to be a carcinogen.

But remember what Keith said.    Keep your acetone in a sealed airtight container just to make sure your house doesn't catch fire when you aren't home.

Usually a good idea to read the MSDS document for any chemical safety information.  Search with google for "msds acetone", and you will find lots of them.

In the summary section of the MSDS document, you will find the available Carcinogen assessment references for the chemical, if there are any.  This will probably cause you do more google searches (unless you are a chemist or industrial hygenist).  for Acetone, the assessment according to the ACGIH group is an "A4", which means "not considered carcinogenic to humans or animals".  Different chemical companies will write their MSDS documents with slightly different references, so you may want to reference a few of them, to get a better perspective.

Acetone may not be carcinogenic, but has lots of other health risks; you may want to read the MSDS in it's entirety (they usually run about  4 - 10 pages, in my experience), to get an understanding of what all the other toxic and acute health risks are, if you plan to use it...

fyi,
Tom
PS  Any other questions ("... what is an MSDS?" ), remember, google is your friend.  T.

 

I asked my sister about acetone.   She uses it everyday at the beauty shop where she works, doing fingernails, pedicures, hairstyling.    She said they don't have ventilators where it is used.   So I guess acetone is NOT known to be a carcinogen.

But remember what Keith said.    Keep your acetone in a sealed airtight container just to make sure your house doesn't catch fire when you aren't home.

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

Stephen Lane wrote:
     Wow what a long thread - I tend to agree with ST all solvents are not good as to how bad I refer to the MSDS's tho I would point out that Ethanol causes crazing on Perspex (Acrylic Plastic) it ususally takes a while but one exposure to it is all it needs.
    Anyway my 2c is use the MSDS''s they are changing all the time so keep them up to date.

Regards
Stephen

 

It may depend on denaturing agents as well as the particular acrylic grade. 

Personally I wouldn't hesitate to clean acrylic with denatured ethanol, since I have never observed this, but you are not the only one saying it has this effect.

Depend on what you use the acrylic for.  MANY years ago (1970 or so) at the Lawrence Radiation Lab, we used a pair of massive acrylic beams  (2" thick, 24" wide, 10ft long) to support a 3MV Cockroft -Walton generator.  Wiped them down with alky before sealing them in the HV pressure vessel, then had to replace the entire assembly because of stress cracks.  If it's not a structural element, you're probably safe.

Norm