Homebrew_PCBs

I don't know who recommended EDDING 404 markers but I must say thank you for the suggestion.
The EDDING 404 most definitely can draw SOIC pads and do toner transfer repairs.

So I would conclude that EDDING 404 is by far my first choice for an acid resist pen now.


I always grab some stray pens..and this time a crayon... to check for acid resistance.
BIC INTENSITY FINE 
and
LA PEN
both just washed right off the copper.

Crayon barely worked.... and crudded up the acid bath.


after toner transfer:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5153.JPG


after etch:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5154.JPG


shiny copper traces:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG


http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/index.html

Assume I am totally clueless and write that email again with links to explanations of what you said. Please.
I am assuming Green TRF is sold by pulser?
but not sure what positive development
or
cheap scotch lam means.

and what is a cheep household iron used for when the laminator is already the perfect heat and pressure?!??

 

If you have not tried Green TRF of pulsar  type yet you should. It protects thru acid bath

when doing toner transfer and  positive development real good even with a cheep scotch lam followed by a cheep household iron.

YES I did find EDDING 404 refill ink was sold by the bottle.

Noting that the STAEDTLER lumocolor permanent pen 313 black worked well for me
I chased down STAEDTLER 313  refill ink and I am waiting to see what that behaves like in a
drafting .5mm technical pin when the ink arrives from germany.

So it seems that EDDING and STAEDTLER offer refill ink while SHARPIE does not.
 
On the topic of inks......
I have figured out what fails for me with using SHARPIE permanent markers.
Considering that I have used all types of tip sizes and colors.... red blue green.. gold,,,,silver....
and permanent and high temp industrial...... everything with SHARPIE PERMANENT maker written on it......
AND THEY ALL FAIL me in the same way.

I used them for touchup on black HP toner that has been transfered to PCB via heat pressing.
99% of the traces do transfer quite well but once in a while I get a gap or a pinhole.
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/index.html

so I have taken up the standard practice of simply tracing over the toner with a permanent black marker
to reinforce the toner traces with ink.
BUT
THIS IS WHERE THE SHARPIE FAILs because the chemicals in the SHARPIE actually melts toner that
STICKS to the sharpie tip and clogs it to the point where is no longer flows ink.
I thought my sharpie TIPs were drying out but no...... still plenty of ink,,, just blocked from flowing off the tip of the
sharpie where I had been tracing toner.
NO SHARPIE MARKER HAS PASSED THIS TEST for me here yet.

So far it seems that this clogging action does not happen with EDDING 404 or STAEDTLER 313 markers.
 

 

Hi all,

I found out that the ink used is EDDING 404 is also available in bottles, printer cartridges an even spray cans.

This could be interesting for people who have altered a printer to print direct to PCB copper clad.

Just Google EDDING 404 ink and you find what I found. As up till now I did not find any prices yet...

So if someone wants to search deeper and let us all know?

   

CB

Kevin.... Do you sell Fab In a Box?  I have more questions.

 

PCB "Fab-In-A-Box" ... The 8min circuit board system

PCB "Fab-In-A-Box" ... The 8min circuit board system

This is a web site that explains quite a lot of what I posted. I do not have th Apache

Lam but have a Scotch brand Lam that is  not hot enough but between that less expensive Lam and my house hold clothes iron I get the job done and traces are protected real good thru acid bath. I use Datka version of positive developement

Coated Copper Clad Boards | MPJA.COM bought here and the Gree TR F sticks real good plus this board etches fast an is a quality Board solution.

Coated Copper Clad Boards | MPJA.COM

Lam Model # TL902 recomended on U-Tube video, Should have tried GBC model instead thou as a after thought due to temperature of exiting board. It handles 1/16 in board thou.

I was staying away from the professional kits because I was trying to document what works with
the most readily available and cheapest chemistry so ANYone could repeat my successes
and avoid my failures. ....  so we could etch short wave radio PCBs with kids...scouts.... newbies....
DIY...makers....  anybody.... without spending $75 on a "starter kit".
 

 

No I do not, that web site was recomended to me as a system that works. Ask away.

I will try to give you any info that you need to check out as I have been folowin your talk about etch pens with interest as pro types have problems also. Pens sold by MPJA, is what I mean. The only real way I have found is Green TRF. Beautiful copper traces and no voids at all.

Before I started doing direct print, I had a similar laminator. I read about people gearing it down to make the board go through slower. I decided to instead use a micro controller with a relay to pulse the motor for 1 second every 10, instead of ironing after laminator. Sorry if it's off topic, but I can share more on how if need be.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 16:00:05 -0500, you wrote:

>I was staying away from the professional kits because I was trying to
>document what works with
>the most readily available and cheapest chemistry so ANYone could repeat
>my successes
>and avoid my failures. .... so we could etch short wave radio PCBs with
>kids...scouts.... newbies....
>DIY...makers.... anybody.... without spending $75 on a "starter kit".

The TRF green foil, paper, and white foil are available separately,
Mouser electronics stocks them.

If you have a good way of transferring the pattern, then you may not
need the paper. However, if you are doing toner transfer, then I will
recommend the green TRF foil, it does seem to help, and it does give
you a better idea of the sanctity of the toner layer beneath.

Harvey

>
>
>On 12/08/2016 03:38 PM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
>wrote:
>> No I do not, that web site was recomended to me as a system that
>> works. Ask away.
>> I will try to give you any info that you need to check out as I have
>> been folowin your talk about etch pens with interest as pro types have
>> problems also. Pens sold by MPJA, is what I mean. The only real way I
>> have found is Green TRF. Beautiful copper traces and no voids at all.
>>

YEP
I started with a ROYAL laminator..... increased the heater from 290 to 340 toner melt temp
by the FOOL THE THERMISTER hack then
added  motor roller pause and delay control for single pass
BUT
melted the plastic drive gear
so I resorted to plan B which is 20 pounds of press weight .... hot plate method: 
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/hotcakes.html

and now......the laminator waits for steel gears
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/index.html

but the heater and motor TRIAC PIC16F628A control is ready to share:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/index.html

My plan B hot plate method can be controlled by the laminator heater triac circuit
but honestly I feel it really does not need any control at all like the laminator did.

When I want to make a PCB I simply turn on the hot plate  on the MAX setting for 5 minutes
then back it down to ONE and watch a thermocouple digital thermometer first climb to 370 degrees then cool down.
When I see it hit 340 degrees I remove the thermometer and slap on the artwork and copper for 3 minutes and the
1 inch thick steel thermal mass cooks off real slow and consistantly holds out for enough time to slap multiple PCBs under the press for 3 minutes each.
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/index.html

I have gotten to the point where the TIME it takes from steel getting piled on the hot plate until
the acetone is wiping toner off the etched board.... all happens in less than 30 minutes.
 

 

Before I started doing direct print, I had a similar laminator. I read about people gearing it down to make the board go through slower. I decided to instead use a micro controller with a relay to pulse the motor for 1 second every 10, instead of ironing after laminator. Sorry if it's off topic, but I can share more on how if need be.

 

I’ve found that you can get laser foil much cheaper in 8” wide rolls. See e.g. eBay item 160937797413 Any of the metallic colours works very well.


Dave
------------------------------
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 09 December 2016 09:25
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: was EDDING 404 ETCH TEST WORKS GREAT..... is now laminators



Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin


________________________________________
Posted by: Kevin Byrne <kbyrne10@...>

I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
guy to test all of them.

At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep enough to warrant experimenting with it.

 

 

Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin

Pictures are always nice.
the question is WHICH nail polish

 

I have a brd just out of acid bath that is a mixture of Green trf and white dollar store nail polish. Came out real good even with my weak eyes. I can take a picture and post if you desire.

I see there is this:
Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR 4"x100' Roll US Made
so
I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15  just to try it out.
Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner artwork with an iron or laminator
so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
 



 

 

I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
guy to test all of them.

At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep enough to warrant experimenting with it.

 

On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin

Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
The toner leaks. Not a lot,  a pin hole here and there.. a tracing gap ..... imperfections.
The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real close to perfection.....
but not perfect every time.
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg

So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a sharpie permanent marker...
then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
and getting excellent etchings:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG


So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of transfer method
that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot craft toner reactive foil will
deposit an acid resistent layer.
It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm not manufacturing anythign to sell.
I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the kids....scouts....newbies......
and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
 BUT
its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces without screwing them up.
So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice to learn.

And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal... etching......
so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just the pigment we want to stick to the toner.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to just the toner image.
The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two different purposes.
GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has been transferred to the circuit board.
Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing quality boards.
Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
8" wide, 15 feet long.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works as a resist?

 

Shiny though!

 

I wonder if it’s conductive…

 

Tony

 

 

I see there is this:
Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR 4"x100' Roll US Made
so
I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15  just to try it out.
Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner artwork with an iron or laminator
so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
 



 

On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
guy to test all of them.

At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep enough to warrant experimenting with it.

 

On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin

 

 

The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the process.
Its hard to see to do the touchup.

And as far as return on investment goes......
IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime of TRF per PCB.
 

 

I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with a pen won’t already.

 

The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.

 

I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there.  I remember this stuff from years ago.

 

Anyway, no harm trying.  Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!

 

Tony

 

 

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil

 

Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
The toner leaks. Not a lot,  a pin hole here and there.. a tracing gap ..... imperfections.
The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real close to perfection.....
but not perfect every time.
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg

So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a sharpie permanent marker...
then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
and getting excellent etchings:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG


So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of transfer method
that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot craft toner reactive foil will
deposit an acid resistent layer.
It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm not manufacturing anythign to sell.
I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the kids....scouts....newbies......
and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
 BUT
its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces without screwing them up.
So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice to learn.

And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal... etching......
so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just the pigment we want to stick to the toner.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to just the toner image.
The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two different purposes.
GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has been transferred to the circuit board.
Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing quality boards.
Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
8" wide, 15 feet long.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works as a resist?

 

Shiny though!

 

I wonder if it’s conductive…

 

Tony

 

 

I see there is this:
Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR 4"x100' Roll US Made
so
I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15  just to try it out.
Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner artwork with an iron or laminator
so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
 



 

On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
guy to test all of them.

At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep enough to warrant experimenting with it.

 

On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin

 

 

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 22:58:31 -0500, you wrote:

>The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>process.
>Its hard to see to do the touchup.

One advantage of the foil is that you can easily see where the foil
did not adhere, since it is green and the toner typically black (has
anyone tried color toner?). Sharpie pen over the foil can work. You
can also look at the left over foil, which should be absolutely
transparent (100% transfer) for a good seal.

You can still scrape the toner/foil combination off, but it is more
rugged than just toner, and gives better results.

Harvey

>
>And as far as return on investment goes......
>IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>of TRF per PCB.
>
>
>
>
>On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with a
>> pen won’t already.
>>
>> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>>
>> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I remember
>> this stuff from years ago.
>>
>> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>>
>>
>>
>> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing gap
>> ..... imperfections.
>> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> close to perfection.....
>> but not perfect every time.
>> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>>
>> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> sharpie permanent marker...
>> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> and getting excellent etchings:
>> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>>
>>
>> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> transfer method
>> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot craft
>> toner reactive foil will
>> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm not
>> manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> BUT
>> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces without
>> screwing them up.
>> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice to
>> learn.
>>
>> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal... etching......
>> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just the
>> pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>>
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> just the toner image.
>> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized plastic.
>> So, by covering a toner printed image previously transferred to the
>> copper board, and applying heat & pressure to it, the foil encapsulate
>> the toner. In effect, the black toner turns either Green or White. We
>> use these two foils for two different purposes.
>> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has been
>> transferred to the circuit board.
>> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing quality
>> boards.
>> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works as a
>> resist?
>>
>> Shiny though!
>>
>> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> I see there is this:
>> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> so
>> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when
>> it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be
>> a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> guy to test all of them.
>>
>> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits,
>> no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it
>> work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist
>> brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail
>> polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just
>> going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for
>> your art work on copper. Kevin
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.

SOIC is definitely doable.
This is a PIC16F629
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html

I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and unavailable.

I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the adults with
007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.

 

Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman (spelling?).  That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong.  The only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.

 

Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.

 

I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the main board is easier.  Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.  You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler.  As usual YMMV.

 

Tony

 

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil

 

The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the process.
Its hard to see to do the touchup.

And as far as return on investment goes......
IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime of TRF per PCB.
 

On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with a pen won’t already.

 

The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.

 

I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there.  I remember this stuff from years ago.

 

Anyway, no harm trying.  Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!

 

Tony

 

 

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil

 

Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
The toner leaks. Not a lot,  a pin hole here and there.. a tracing gap ..... imperfections.
The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real close to perfection.....
but not perfect every time.
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg

So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a sharpie permanent marker...
then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
and getting excellent etchings:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG


So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of transfer method
that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot craft toner reactive foil will
deposit an acid resistent layer.
It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm not manufacturing anythign to sell.
I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the kids....scouts....newbies......
and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
 BUT
its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces without screwing them up.
So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice to learn.

And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal... etching......
so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just the pigment we want to stick to the toner.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to just the toner image.
The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two different purposes.
GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has been transferred to the circuit board.
Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing quality boards.
Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
8" wide, 15 feet long.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works as a resist?

 

Shiny though!

 

I wonder if it’s conductive…

 

Tony

 

 

I see there is this:
Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR 4"x100' Roll US Made
so
I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15  just to try it out.
Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner artwork with an iron or laminator
so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
 



 

On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
guy to test all of them.

At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep enough to warrant experimenting with it.

 

On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin

 

 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:

>PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>
>SOIC is definitely doable.
>This is a PIC16F629
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>
>I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>unavailable.

There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.

If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.

All depends on what you want to build.

Harvey

>
>I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>adults with
>007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>
>
>
>On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>>
>> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>>
>> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> usual YMMV.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>>
>>
>>
>> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> process.
>> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>>
>> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> of TRF per PCB.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> a pen won’t already.
>>
>> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>>
>> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> remember this stuff from years ago.
>>
>> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>>
>>
>>
>> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> gap ..... imperfections.
>> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> close to perfection.....
>> but not perfect every time.
>> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>>
>> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> sharpie permanent marker...
>> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> and getting excellent etchings:
>> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>>
>>
>> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> transfer method
>> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> craft toner reactive foil will
>> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> BUT
>> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> without screwing them up.
>> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> to learn.
>>
>> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> etching......
>> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>>
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> just the toner image.
>> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> different purposes.
>> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> quality boards.
>> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> as a resist?
>>
>> Shiny though!
>>
>> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> I see there is this:
>> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> so
>> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> guy to test all of them.
>>
>> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> Kevin
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Sure
..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP 
BUT
for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham radio and ARDUINO and
robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.

Speaking of LCDs and SOIC.....
I thought I had bought a SOIC adapter but found that it had 16 pins in the space of the 8 pins of a
PIC12F675..... so I added a layer of adaptation:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic1.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic2.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic3.jpg
and still had a fit problem......  bent pins to cure.

As Jim is having a heck of a time getting SOIC chip carriers to mate with DIP... in everything from
actual circuits to burners......
I have to question the NEED to miniaturize everything......
Like .. to Ancel .....the PIC12F675 laminator controller..
why make it so small?
Why use SMT instead of DIP for that project?
I think SMT prohibits some newbies from electronics exploration.
 
And LCD....

Complete LCD modules cost $1.60 now:
LCD Display Character Module LCM 16x2 HD4478Controller Blue Blacklight 1602 RX
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp01.jpg

20 years ago I paid MOUSER $40 to buy that same LCD.

So now it costs about $2 to add debugging and status information to any $2 PIC circuit
without having to accommodate "In circuit Programming" or any advanced IDE
running a real time debugger.
 

 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:

>PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>
>SOIC is definitely doable.
>This is a PIC16F629
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>
>I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>unavailable.

There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.

If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.

All depends on what you want to build.

Harvey

>
>I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>adults with
>007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>
>
>
>On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>>
>> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>>
>> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> usual YMMV.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>>
>>
>>
>> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> process.
>> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>>
>> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> of TRF per PCB.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> a pen won’t already.
>>
>> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>>
>> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> remember this stuff from years ago.
>>
>> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>>
>>
>>
>> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> gap ..... imperfections.
>> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> close to perfection.....
>> but not perfect every time.
>> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>>
>> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> sharpie permanent marker...
>> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> and getting excellent etchings:
>> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>>
>>
>> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> transfer method
>> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> craft toner reactive foil will
>> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> BUT
>> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> without screwing them up.
>> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> to learn.
>>
>> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> etching......
>> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>>
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> just the toner image.
>> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> different purposes.
>> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> quality boards.
>> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> as a resist?
>>
>> Shiny though!
>>
>> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> I see there is this:
>> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> so
>> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> guy to test all of them.
>>
>> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> Kevin
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:07:59 -0500, you wrote:

>Sure
>..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP

Complete product lines, for example.

>BUT
>for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham
>radio and ARDUINO and
>robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.

The problem arrives when you need heavier duty fun that a an Arduino
based system cannot provide, or when you decide that the Arduino
framework is too limited.

For many, Arduino is sufficient. There are cases when arduinos are
not sufficient.

>
>Speaking of LCDs and SOIC.....
>I thought I had bought a SOIC adapter but found that it had 16 pins in
>the space of the 8 pins of a
>PIC12F675..... so I added a layer of adaptation:
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic1.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic2.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic3.jpg
>and still had a fit problem...... bent pins to cure.
>
>As Jim is having a heck of a time getting SOIC chip carriers to mate
>with DIP... in everything from
>actual circuits to burners......
>I have to question the NEED to miniaturize everything......
>Like .. to Ancel .....the PIC12F675 laminator controller..
>why make it so small?

If you need a PC board that has plated through holes, and want real
plated through holes, you're going to have someone else make the
board. There are people who can do plated through holes, but that's
another matter.

If you have boards made, then size becomes important, since board
costs are per square inch, for instance.

There are also packaging situations where size is important.

>Why use SMT instead of DIP for that project?
>I think SMT prohibits some newbies from electronics exploration.

It does, and some people never go past pre-built boards. Some never
go past DIP and through hole, and some need additional capabilities.

>
>And LCD....
>
>Complete LCD modules cost $1.60 now:
>LCD Display Character Module LCM 16x2 HD4478Controller Blue Blacklight
>1602 RX
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp01.jpg
>
>20 years ago I paid MOUSER $40 to buy that same LCD.
>
>So now it costs about $2 to add debugging and status information to any
>$2 PIC circuit
>without having to accommodate "In circuit Programming" or any advanced IDE
>running a real time debugger.

I'm thinking a display from QVGA up to VGA, running graphics, having
GUI capabilities. Unfortunately, we're not talking the same LCD
display.

You would like to have an advanced IDE running a real time debugger
for this. The complexity of the design (system wise) dictates the
complexity of the software (size of flash/ram in chip) which then
dictates the complexity of the hardware. That, in turn, changes the
desired construction method.


Harvey

>
>
>On 12/10/2016 09:20 AM, Harvey White madyn@...
>[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>> >
>> >SOIC is definitely doable.
>> >This is a PIC16F629
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>> >
>> >I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>> >Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>> >Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>> >unavailable.
>>
>> There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
>> XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
>> controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
>> use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.
>>
>> If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
>> a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.
>>
>> All depends on what you want to build.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>> >
>> >I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>> >adults with
>> >007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> >> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> >> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> >> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>> >>
>> >> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>> >>
>> >> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> >> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> >> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> >> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> >> usual YMMV.
>> >>
>> >> Tony
>> >>
>> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> >> process.
>> >> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>> >>
>> >> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> >> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> >> of TRF per PCB.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> >> a pen won’t already.
>> >>
>> >> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> >> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>> >>
>> >> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> >> remember this stuff from years ago.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>> >>
>> >> Tony
>> >>
>> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> >> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> >> gap ..... imperfections.
>> >> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> >> close to perfection.....
>> >> but not perfect every time.
>> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>> >>
>> >> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> >> sharpie permanent marker...
>> >> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> >> and getting excellent etchings:
>> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> >> transfer method
>> >> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> >> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> >> craft toner reactive foil will
>> >> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> >> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> >> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> >> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> >> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> >> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> >> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> >> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> >> BUT
>> >> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> >> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> >> without screwing them up.
>> >> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> >> to learn.
>> >>
>> >> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> >> etching......
>> >> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> >> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> >> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> >> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> >> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> >> just the toner image.
>> >> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> >> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> >> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> >> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> >> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> >> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> >> different purposes.
>> >> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> >> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> >> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> >> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> >> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> >> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> >> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> >> quality boards.
>> >> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> >> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> >> as a resist?
>> >>
>> >> Shiny though!
>> >>
>> >> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>> >>
>> >> Tony
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I see there is this:
>> >> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> >> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> >> so
>> >> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> >> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> >> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> >> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> >> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> >> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> >> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> >> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> >> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> >> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> >> guy to test all of them.
>> >>
>> >> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> >> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> >> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> >> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> >> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> >> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> >> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> >> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> >> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> >> Kevin
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>

Yes, that is the correct spelling. And, yes, the direct printing is much faster and easier, with 6 mil traces usually achievable.

For anyone reluctant to try smt, I would encourage you to give it a try. SOIC and 0805 parts are EXTREMELY easy to use and once you get used to them, are MUCH faster to solder. I routinely do TQFP64 Atmel mcus by hand,  and get a lot of pleasure from being able to do so, but they can be a bit dicey.  There are lots of tutorials out there on using smt, and all it takes is a little practice.

For more complex pcbs I use a hotplate and solder paste that I usually hand apply using a small (1cc) syringe and a 24 gauge catheter.


Mark




At 01:04 AM 12/10/2016, you wrote:

PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.

SOIC is definitely doable.
This is a PIC16F629
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html

I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and unavailable.

I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the adults with
007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.



On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman (spelling?).  That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong.  The only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.

Â

Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.

Â

I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the main board is easier.  Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.  You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler.  As usual YMMV.

Â

Tony

Â

Â

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil

Â



The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the process.
Its hard to see to do the touchup.

And as far as return on investment goes......
IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime of TRF per PCB.
Â


On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with a pen won’t already.

Â

The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.

Â

I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there.  I remember this stuff from years ago.

Â

Anyway, no harm trying.  Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!

Â

Tony

Â

Â

Â

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil

Â



Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
The toner leaks. Not a lot,  a pin hole here and there.. a tracing gap ..... imperfections.
The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real close to perfection.....
but not perfect every time.
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg

So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a sharpie permanent marker...
then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
and getting excellent etchings:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG


So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of transfer method
that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot craft toner reactive foil will
deposit an acid resistent layer.
It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm not manufacturing anythign to sell.
I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the kids....scouts....newbies......
and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
 BUT
its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces without screwing them up.
So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice to learn.

And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal... etching......
so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just the pigment we want to stick to the toner.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FROM : https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to just the toner image.
The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two different purposes.
GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has been transferred to the circuit board.
Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing quality boards.
Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
8" wide, 15 feet long.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works as a resist?

Â

Shiny though!

Â

I wonder if it’s conductive…

Â

Tony

Â

Â


I see there is this:
Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR 4"x100' Roll US Made
so
I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15  just to try it out.
Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner artwork with an iron or laminator
so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
Â



Â



On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
guy to test all of them.

At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep enough to warrant experimenting with it.

Â



On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after? Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper. Kevin

Â

Â

I used ARDUINO as example......
I do nothing with ARDUINO.

I don't need to shave production costs.... I'm just dabbling with hobby electronics with a leaning toward ham radio.
I built a radio with $7 of components and heard France.
Sort of just proving anyone can do it.

 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:07:59 -0500, you wrote:

>Sure
>..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP

Complete product lines, for example.

>BUT
>for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham
>radio and ARDUINO and
>robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.

The problem arrives when you need heavier duty fun that a an Arduino
based system cannot provide, or when you decide that the Arduino
framework is too limited.

For many, Arduino is sufficient. There are cases when arduinos are
not sufficient.

>
>Speaking of LCDs and SOIC.....
>I thought I had bought a SOIC adapter but found that it had 16 pins in
>the space of the 8 pins of a
>PIC12F675..... so I added a layer of adaptation:
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic1.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic2.jpg
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic3.jpg
>and still had a fit problem...... bent pins to cure.
>
>As Jim is having a heck of a time getting SOIC chip carriers to mate
>with DIP... in everything from
>actual circuits to burners......
>I have to question the NEED to miniaturize everything......
>Like .. to Ancel .....the PIC12F675 laminator controller..
>why make it so small?

If you need a PC board that has plated through holes, and want real
plated through holes, you're going to have someone else make the
board. There are people who can do plated through holes, but that's
another matter.

If you have boards made, then size becomes important, since board
costs are per square inch, for instance.

There are also packaging situations where size is important.

>Why use SMT instead of DIP for that project?
>I think SMT prohibits some newbies from electronics exploration.

It does, and some people never go past pre-built boards. Some never
go past DIP and through hole, and some need additional capabilities.

>
>And LCD....
>
>Complete LCD modules cost $1.60 now:
>LCD Display Character Module LCM 16x2 HD4478Controller Blue Blacklight
>1602 RX
>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp01.jpg
>
>20 years ago I paid MOUSER $40 to buy that same LCD.
>
>So now it costs about $2 to add debugging and status information to any
>$2 PIC circuit
>without having to accommodate "In circuit Programming" or any advanced IDE
>running a real time debugger.

I'm thinking a display from QVGA up to VGA, running graphics, having
GUI capabilities. Unfortunately, we're not talking the same LCD
display.

You would like to have an advanced IDE running a real time debugger
for this. The complexity of the design (system wise) dictates the
complexity of the software (size of flash/ram in chip) which then
dictates the complexity of the hardware. That, in turn, changes the
desired construction method.

Harvey

>
>
>On 12/10/2016 09:20 AM, Harvey White madyn@...
>[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>> >
>> >SOIC is definitely doable.
>> >This is a PIC16F629
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>> >
>> >I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>> >Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>> >Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>> >unavailable.
>>
>> There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
>> XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
>> controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
>> use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.
>>
>> If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
>> a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.
>>
>> All depends on what you want to build.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>> >
>> >I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>> >adults with
>> >007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> >> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> >> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> >> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>> >>
>> >> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>> >>
>> >> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> >> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> >> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> >> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> >> usual YMMV.
>> >>
>> >> Tony
>> >>
>> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> >> process.
>> >> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>> >>
>> >> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> >> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> >> of TRF per PCB.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> >> a pen won’t already.
>> >>
>> >> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> >> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>> >>
>> >> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> >> remember this stuff from years ago.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>> >>
>> >> Tony
>> >>
>> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> >> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> >> gap ..... imperfections.
>> >> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> >> close to perfection.....
>> >> but not perfect every time.
>> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>> >>
>> >> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> >> sharpie permanent marker...
>> >> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> >> and getting excellent etchings:
>> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> >> transfer method
>> >> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> >> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> >> craft toner reactive foil will
>> >> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> >> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> >> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> >> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> >> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> >> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> >> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> >> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> >> BUT
>> >> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> >> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> >> without screwing them up.
>> >> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> >> to learn.
>> >>
>> >> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> >> etching......
>> >> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> >> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> >> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> >> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> >> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> >> just the toner image.
>> >> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> >> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> >> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> >> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> >> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> >> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> >> different purposes.
>> >> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> >> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> >> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> >> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> >> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> >> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> >> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> >> quality boards.
>> >> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> >> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> >> as a resist?
>> >>
>> >> Shiny though!
>> >>
>> >> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>> >>
>> >> Tony
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I see there is this:
>> >> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> >> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> >> so
>> >> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> >> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> >> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> >> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> >> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> >> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> >> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> >> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> >> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> >> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> >> guy to test all of them.
>> >>
>> >> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> >> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> >> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> >> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> >> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> >> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> >> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> >> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> >> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> >> Kevin
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I used ARDUINO as example......
> I do nothing with ARDUINO.
>
> I don't need to shave production costs.... I'm just dabbling with hobby electronics with a leaning toward ham radio.
> I built a radio with $7 of components and heard France.

You heard France, and you are located in ? Belgium?

You may question the trend to microminiaturization, but remember
that the hobby market is negligible compared to the consumer
market which DEMANDS smaller and smaller electronics. Soon,
you will not find through parts anymore. But that shouldn’t be
an obstacle to experimentation and hobby electronics.

SMT is easy, but not too tolerant of messiness, so hobbyists will
need to learn how to deal with which is no big deal.

Just my $0.02,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL

> Sort of just proving anyone can do it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/10/2016 10:33 AM, Harvey White madyn@...[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:07:59 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >Sure
>> >..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP
>>
>> Complete product lines, for example.
>>
>> >BUT
>> >for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham
>> >radio and ARDUINO and
>> >robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.
>>
>> The problem arrives when you need heavier duty fun that a an Arduino
>> based system cannot provide, or when you decide that the Arduino
>> framework is too limited.
>>
>> For many, Arduino is sufficient. There are cases when arduinos are
>> not sufficient.
>>
>> >
>> >Speaking of LCDs and SOIC.....
>> >I thought I had bought a SOIC adapter but found that it had 16 pins in
>> >the space of the 8 pins of a
>> >PIC12F675..... so I added a layer of adaptation:
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic1.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic2.jpg
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/soic/soic3.jpg
>> >and still had a fit problem...... bent pins to cure.
>> >
>> >As Jim is having a heck of a time getting SOIC chip carriers to mate
>> >with DIP... in everything from
>> >actual circuits to burners......
>> >I have to question the NEED to miniaturize everything......
>> >Like .. to Ancel .....the PIC12F675 laminator controller..
>> >why make it so small?
>>
>> If you need a PC board that has plated through holes, and want real
>> plated through holes, you're going to have someone else make the
>> board. There are people who can do plated through holes, but that's
>> another matter.
>>
>> If you have boards made, then size becomes important, since board
>> costs are per square inch, for instance.
>>
>> There are also packaging situations where size is important.
>>
>> >Why use SMT instead of DIP for that project?
>> >I think SMT prohibits some newbies from electronics exploration.
>>
>> It does, and some people never go past pre-built boards. Some never
>> go past DIP and through hole, and some need additional capabilities.
>>
>> >
>> >And LCD....
>> >
>> >Complete LCD modules cost $1.60 now:
>> >LCD Display Character Module LCM 16x2 HD4478Controller Blue Blacklight
>> >1602 RX
>> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp01.jpg
>> >
>> >20 years ago I paid MOUSER $40 to buy that same LCD.
>> >
>> >So now it costs about $2 to add debugging and status information to any
>> >$2 PIC circuit
>> >without having to accommodate "In circuit Programming" or any advanced IDE
>> >running a real time debugger.
>>
>> I'm thinking a display from QVGA up to VGA, running graphics, having
>> GUI capabilities. Unfortunately, we're not talking the same LCD
>> display.
>>
>> You would like to have an advanced IDE running a real time debugger
>> for this. The complexity of the design (system wise) dictates the
>> complexity of the software (size of flash/ram in chip) which then
>> dictates the complexity of the hardware. That, in turn, changes the
>> desired construction method.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/10/2016 09:20 AM, Harvey White madyn@...
>> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:04:41 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >PANTUM here now waiting to be hacked.
>> >> >
>> >> >SOIC is definitely doable.
>> >> >This is a PIC16F629
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5070.jpg
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/testetch5077.jpg
>> >> >http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/etch/index.html
>> >> >
>> >> >I sort of think of SOIC as a novelty.
>> >> >Nothing in my hobby electronics world mandates SOIC.
>> >> >Nothing SOIC has replaced anything DIP here because DIP is obsolete and
>> >> >unavailable.
>> >>
>> >> There are chips that are not available in DIP packages. Any ATMEL
>> >> XMEGA and the EPSON S1D13781 LCD display controller. The LCD
>> >> controller is 0.5 mm spacing and the CPU is about 0.6. You'd want to
>> >> use 0805 or 1206 SMT parts with the design.
>> >>
>> >> If you're doing that kind of design, you end up doing SMT parts. It's
>> >> a slightly different world, but you can do 10/10 with toner transfer.
>> >>
>> >> All depends on what you want to build.
>> >>
>> >> Harvey
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I only show and tell SMT to educate the kids..... and intrigue the
>> >> >adults with
>> >> >007 James Bond transmitters.... KNIGHTSMITE in a mint can.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On 12/09/2016 11:35 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Probably the best hobbyist method these days is to modify a cheap
>> >> >> printer to do direct printing as pioneered by Mark Lerman
>> >> >> (spelling?). That didn’t seem possible but he proved us wrong. The
>> >> >> only consumable is acetone which other toner methods needs anyway.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Laser & paint might be even easier but I’ve yet to try it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I’ve been finding for fine pitch work it’s easier to buy those
>> >> >> adapters, solder the SMD part to that and them soldering that to the
>> >> >> main board is easier. Packs of those are pretty cheap these days.
>> >> >> You convert the SMD into through hole so the main board is simpler. As
>> >> >> usual YMMV.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 2:59 PM
>> >> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The goal was to figure out if the touchup pen can be omitted from the
>> >> >> process.
>> >> >> Its hard to see to do the touchup.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And as far as return on investment goes......
>> >> >> IF it works with the craft TRF then that works out to less than a dime
>> >> >> of TRF per PCB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 10:18 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don’t think the foil is going to add much that touching up with
>> >> >> a pen won’t already.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The foil will probably lessen the edge quality (ragged edges) and
>> >> >> possibly spread the traces when run through the laminator again.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I’m a bit dubious about the return on investment there. I
>> >> >> remember this stuff from years ago.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, no harm trying. Less harm if it’s someone else trying it!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>> >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 December 2016 1:53 PM
>> >> >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] IS GREEN TRF the same thing as Heat
>> >> >> Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Because the toner is not 100 percent etch resistant.
>> >> >> The toner leaks. Not a lot, a pin hole here and there.. a tracing
>> >> >> gap ..... imperfections.
>> >> >> The toner transfer isn't always perfect for me..... close... real
>> >> >> close to perfection.....
>> >> >> but not perfect every time.
>> >> >>http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So I have taken up the procedure of going over the toner with a
>> >> >> sharpie permanent marker...
>> >> >> then found EDDING 404 MUCH better than the sharpie.....
>> >> >> and getting excellent etchings:
>> >> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/line/IMG_5156a.JPG
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So now we have this problem solved by an arts and crafts type of
>> >> >> transfer method
>> >> >> that is known to STICK TO TONER quite well.
>> >> >> I have not used it yet but intend to learn if the cheap 100 foot
>> >> >> craft toner reactive foil will
>> >> >> deposit an acid resistent layer.
>> >> >> It would save me the task of tracing the toner.
>> >> >> One thing to note about all this testing on my stuff is that I'm
>> >> >> not manufacturing anythign to sell.
>> >> >> I'm just documenting what works for me to share with the
>> >> >> kids....scouts....newbies......
>> >> >> and I'm not making real tiny SMT projects.....
>> >> >> much of my traces are 1/8th inch and nothing real critical here.
>> >> >> BUT
>> >> >> its nice to learn how this CAN be done smaller.....
>> >> >> and I don't think its possible to hand trace SMT toner traces
>> >> >> without screwing them up.
>> >> >> So if TRF foils do this sealant task then that would be real nice
>> >> >> to learn.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And yes... I had that same thought about foil... metal...
>> >> >> etching......
>> >> >> so I bought the notsoshiny stuff to play with...thinking its just
>> >> >> the pigment we want to stick to the toner.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >> FROM :https://www.circuitspecialists.com/pcb-trf-green.html
>> >> >> This Green foil has a special adhesive coating ("sizing") applied
>> >> >> underneath the pigment color. When the foil and toner image are
>> >> >> subjected to high heat and pressure, the color permanently fuse to
>> >> >> just the toner image.
>> >> >> The interesting thing about toner (from a laser printer or
>> >> >> photo-copier) is that it is madeup of about 55% pulverized
>> >> >> plastic. So, by covering a toner printed image previously
>> >> >> transferred to the copper board, and applying heat & pressure to
>> >> >> it, the foil encapsulate the toner. In effect, the black toner
>> >> >> turns either Green or White. We use these two foils for two
>> >> >> different purposes.
>> >> >> GreenTRF is used to seal the toner "circuit image" after it has
>> >> >> been transferred to the circuit board.
>> >> >> Toner is a very porous material. If left alone and the board was
>> >> >> etched, you'd wind up with pitted surfaces or even hairline breaks
>> >> >> from cracks that were too small to see with the naked eye.
>> >> >> GreenTRF solves this problem by completely encapsulating the toner
>> >> >> image in one easy step. An absolute "must have" for producing
>> >> >> quality boards.
>> >> >> Film for colorizing and sealing black toner used as an "etch resist".
>> >> >> 8" wide, 15 feet long.
>> >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 09:06 PM, 'Tony Smith' ajsmith1968@...
>> >> >> <mailto:ajsmith1968@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why bother putting foil over toner if the toner already works
>> >> >> as a resist?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Shiny though!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wonder if it’s conductive…
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tony
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I see there is this:
>> >> >> Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil 8"x100' Roll OR
>> >> >> 4"x100' Roll US Made
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> I bought the 4 inch X 100 foot roll for $15 just to try it out.
>> >> >> Instructions all over the YOUTUBE say how to apply it to toner
>> >> >> artwork with an iron or laminator
>> >> >> so this looks to me like it might work for etching.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 10:56 AM, Rob roomberg@...
>> >> >> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I tried nail polish. I got what looked like crackle paint
>> >> >> hairline webs in the final copper traces.....
>> >> >> looked almost like ice crystals.... seemed to have shrunk
>> >> >> when it dried and then allowed acid to etch where it shrunk.
>> >> >> Considering all nail polish is not created equal there may
>> >> >> be a better etch resist nail polish. I am not the
>> >> >> guy to test all of them.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At $9 ....seems the price of 15 feet of GREEN TRF is cheep
>> >> >> enough to warrant experimenting with it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 12/09/2016 04:25 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@...
>> >> >> <mailto:kbyrne10@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yea but my Green TRF gets perfect copper traces no
>> >> >> pits, no joke. Green trf under pieces of steel after?
>> >> >> Would it work? My old way was cheep nail polish a
>> >> >> cheep artist brush and direct etch. Nail polish
>> >> >> remover to remove nail polish after acid bath. That
>> >> >> could be done cheep by just going to dollar store for
>> >> >> supplies and no more pits for your art work on copper.
>> >> >> Kevin
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>
>

On 12/10/2016 02:40 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  > I used ARDUINO as example......
> I do nothing with ARDUINO.
>> I don't need to shave production costs.... I'm just dabbling with hobby electronics with a leaning toward ham radio.
> I built a radio with $7 of components and heard France.

You heard France, and you are located in ? Belgium?

I heard France from Pennsylvania USA.

My first HF radio was a an SMT  $10 kit KNIGHTSMITE  80 meter CW:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pic/knightsmite.jpg

ANYone can solder these crumbs ...components... in place... wearing
5 diopter reading glasses.... which are readily available now for $12

But WHY work so hard with crumbs when there are bigger parts?
Note in the picture the purple arrow points at the SOIC LM386 amplifier
and compare that massive component size to the resisters on the board.
I did some research and found that high power SMT resisters are available so this
circuit board... the size of a postage stamp.... COULD be made as big as a post card using the larger
components... like the resister in the green circle........ and be much more manageable for a newbie.
 

You may question the trend to microminiaturization, but remember
that the hobby market is negligible compared to the consumer
market which DEMANDS smaller and smaller electronics. Soon,
you will not find through parts anymore.

How soon?
Before I'm dead?

But that shouldn’t be
an obstacle to experimentation and hobby electronics.

SMT is easy, but not too tolerant of messiness, so hobbyists will
need to learn how to deal with which is no big deal.

Just my $0.02,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL

> Sort of just proving anyone can do it.
>
  >
> On 12/10/2016 10:33 AM, Harvey White madyn@...[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:07:59 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >Sure
>> >..... there are SOIC size chips not being offered in DIP
>>
>> Complete product lines, for example.
>>
>> >BUT
>> >for the millions of wannabe DIY newbies playing with electronics for ham
>> >radio and ARDUINO and
>> >robotics ....... we are not needing those SOIC chips to have our fun.
>>
>> The problem arrives when you need heavier duty fun that a an Arduino
>> based system cannot provide, or when you decide that the Arduino
>> framework is too limited.
>>
>> For many, Arduino is sufficient. There are cases when arduinos are
>> not sufficient.
>>
>>

I just got a 100 foot roll of Heat Transfer Foil Pigment Laser Toner Foil
for $15 from EBAY.

I cut a 2 inch by 2 inch square of this stuff and covered it with baking
parchment paper
and laid it on top of a laser printed circuit on plain paper....... then
slowly heated it with a plain soldering iron.....
and the green pigment stuck instantly to the black laser toner... but
not the paper.


I have not played with copper or etching yet but this initial test was
extremely encouraging.