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Copper Clad Board

Copper Clad Board

2016-11-22 by kbyrne10@...

I recently etched some thin brds .032 size with muratic acid and hydrogen

peroxide per 3/4 cup muratic acid & 1 & 1/2 cup hydrogen peroxide mixture. I coated the traces with liquid tin then center punched the pads. I started drilling the pads with a dremel like variable speed moto tool and brand new high speed drill bits only to have pads pull away from copper clad brd.  Why did this happen? Does anyone know as all I can tell is these are cheep orient type board stock bought in large pieces from a E-Bay buyer. It also took 15 to 20 min to etch boards at 120 degree temps. Professional positive brds in 1/16 thickness etched quite fast plus the pads did not pull away from fiberglass

at all. Am I right to assume that I got a bad batch of boards from E-Bay. Any input would help me figure this one out as other board stock did not behave like tis over the past 4 years also.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Clad Board

2016-11-22 by Rob

I only use the thinnest cheapest Chinese ... 70x100mm PCBs  from EBAY

What do you mean by center punched?
Smacked a hammer and nail against the copper pads?
I would not mechanically abuse the copper like that.
Etch the hole ... with a PLUS sign to keep the drill bit from walking away from the target hole.

And etch time? 20 minutes?
I've been getting 4 to 6 minutes etching with room temperature.. same mix you do... 50mL muriactic acid to 100mL peroxide.

and
the only time it took longer is when the peroxide was low in the bottom of the peroxide container
soooooo....
I'm not a chemist so I can't declare why "old" peroxide takes 30 minutes while new peroxide takes less than 5 minutes.
 





On 11/22/2016 01:56 PM, kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

I recently etched some thin brds .032 size with muratic acid and hydrogen

peroxide per 3/4 cup muratic acid & 1 & 1/2 cup hydrogen peroxide mixture. I coated the traces with liquid tin then center punched the pads. I started drilling the pads with a dremel like variable speed moto tool and brand new high speed drill bits only to have pads pull away from copper clad brd.  Why did this happen? Does anyone know as all I can tell is these are cheep orient type board stock bought in large pieces from a E-Bay buyer. It also took 15 to 20 min to etch boards at 120 degree temps. Professional positive brds in 1/16 thickness etched quite fast plus the pads did not pull away from fiberglass

at all. Am I right to assume that I got a bad batch of boards from E-Bay. Any input would help me figure this one out as other board stock did not behave like tis over the past 4 years also.


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Clad Board

2016-11-22 by James

Did you adequately clean the pcbs before applying your resist?

Usually i find blank pcbs have some sort of coating or treatment to prevent oxidation, of course this should be removed by the usual cleaning process before imaging. If you didn't, I could imagine that sort of long etch problem.

Also, heat should not be necessary, with hcl + h202



On Nov 23, 2016 07:57, "kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
. It also took 15 to 20 min to etch boards at 120 degree temps.

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-22 by kbyrne10@...

I scrubbed with sos pads then wiped clean with 91% isopropyl alcohol. Hydrogen Peroxide DG Health brand bought at dollar store, 91% isopropyl
alcohol Rite Aid brand bought at dollar store also. I have better etch times with a different brand of copper clad board with same solution. Muratic Acid bought at big box store Lowels.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Clad Board

2016-11-23 by Donald H Locker

High speed steel will dull very quickly in FR4. Carbide drills are the only way to go. As soon as the drill dulls (within seconds) it starts to grab the material, rather than cut. The first hole with a new HSS bit probably will be OK - after that, you'll get smearing and tearing.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 1:56:41 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Clad Board
>
> I recently etched some thin brds .032 size with muratic acid and hydrogen
> peroxide per 3/4 cup muratic acid & 1 & 1/2 cup hydrogen peroxide mixture. I
> coated the traces with liquid tin then center punched the pads. I started
> drilling the pads with a dremel like variable speed moto tool and brand new
> high speed drill bits only to have pads pull away from copper clad brd.
> Why did this happen? Does anyone know as all I can tell is these are cheep
> orient type board stock bought in large pieces from a E-Bay buyer. It also
> took 15 to 20 min to etch boards at 120 degree temps. Professional positive
> brds in 1/16 thickness etched quite fast plus the pads did not pull away
> from fiberglass
> at all. Am I right to assume that I got a bad batch of boards from E-Bay.
> Any input would help me figure this one out as other board stock did not
> behave like tis over the past 4 years also.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Clad Board

2016-11-23 by Kevin Byrne

Right now run out prevents me from useing my carbide bits plus no drill press. I am going to try aligning transparent brds on bare copper brds then center punching
followed by drilling. After all drills are done I will clean and sand brd  followed by toner transfer brd taped to top and bottom to try to solve this problem as there is a deffinate differencs in different brd stock bought as evident in amount of etching time with same set up. No 120 degrees and heated to 120 degrees exact.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper Clad Board

2016-11-23 by James

Despite your cleaning, my first inclination would still be some coating or other.

If you have some more of that suspect blank stock, it might be interesting to do an experiment, take a fresh piece, divide it into three, the first piece is your control don't do anything, the second piece clean in your usual manner, and the third piece sand with some fine grade sand paper (I use 800 to 1000 grit myself), dump all three in etchant and see how they go, no need for artwork, just to find out if there is some unseen inhibiting coating that your cleaning hasn't removed successfully.  For bonus points, do the same with a piece of stock which has etched well for you in the past to remove problems like unexpected H2O2 degradation.

As for drilling, I always just use HSS bits, they work fine for the odd board that a hobbiest does, chuck em out after 50 - 100 holes.  Also as previously mentioned, etch the centers of the holes away rather than punch them.


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Right now run out prevents me from useing my carbide bits plus no drill press. I am going to try aligning transparent brds on bare copper brds then center punching
followed by drilling. After all drills are done I will clean and sand brd  followed by toner transfer brd taped to top and bottom to try to solve this problem as there is a deffinate differencs in different brd stock bought as evident in amount of etching time with same set up. No 120 degrees and heated to 120 degrees exact.


Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-23 by Dave Sage

DON't Center punch. That's what's delaminating the copper that's becoming the pad. Normally you have a small "hole" etched in the copper at the center of the pad to guide the drill. You can forget about drilling by hand with a crappy drill with excessive run out as well. You're just asking for trouble.

 

 

Sage

 

 

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-23 by Kevin Byrne

Very well, I will have to look into drilling more carefully. Thanks to all for your help.
Drilling during days ago with direct etched gave me good results but I need carbide bit abilities also. Best Holiday Wishes Kevin

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-23 by Kevin Byrne

Results of test are in.
1 Amount of total brd space 3 3/4in times 4 1/4in times two sides.
2 sanded brd done first, sos done a close second & untreated brd third but not
by a long period of time.
3 Unheated room temp etchant 22 min total time changing dark etchant once.
If I am unhappy with the length of time due to old products can I increase the muratic acid part with no side effects to traces?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board..... holes

2016-11-23 by Rob

The secret to hand tool success is the etched hole:
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/PIC16F628PROTO8d.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/dremel60AWG.jpg
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/lcdexp00.jpg




On 11/23/2016 07:30 AM, 'Dave Sage' davesage12@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

DON't Center punch. That's what's delaminating the copper that's becoming the pad. Normally you have a small "hole" etched in the copper at the center of the pad to guide the drill. You can forget about drilling by hand with a crappy drill with excessive run out as well. You're just asking for trouble.

 

 

Sage


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board..... holes

2016-11-23 by Kevin Byrne

Now I understand your cross hair system except I use Eagle freeware. Oval pads with a round drill hole in the center. Drill bits are .019, .025 .035 & .040. Nice pictures thou.
Green TRF sticks good to toner transfer & positive development brds but not negative development. What did you do to protect those traces and pads in etchant if I may ask?

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by duwaynes@...

When using muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide, the etching time mostly depends on the concentration of hydrogen peroxide used.  I usually get 12% peroxide from a beauty supply store.  With this concentration mixed 2 to one with muriatic acid the etch time is around 2 to 3 minutes.  This is a very exothermic reaction, and the solution will get hot very fast..  You really have t o watch closly with this concentration, because it can over etch very quickly.  I usually dilute this down to 6% to get around a 6 minute etch time.  With the 3%  from a drugstore I usually have a 12 to 15 minute etch time.  Peroxide can decrease in concentration after it ages or exposed to air. in a nearly empty container.
DuWayne KV4QB

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by David Martin

I have been getting good results with a 50/50 mix of muratic and 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, and I add table salt to accelerate the etching.


On 11/23/2016 19:30, duwaynes@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

When using muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide, the etching time mostly depends on the concentration of hydrogen peroxide used.  I usually get 12% peroxide from a beauty supply store.  With this concentration mixed 2 to one with muriatic acid the etch time is around 2 to 3 minutes.  This is a very exothermic reaction, and the solution will get hot very fast..  You really have t o watch closly with this concentration, because it can over etch very quickly.  I usually dilute this down to 6% to get around a 6 minute etch time.  With the 3%  from a drugstore I usually have a 12 to 15 minute etch time.  Peroxide can decrease in concentration after it ages or exposed to air. in a nearly empty container.
DuWayne KV4QB


-- 
David Martin - NA1MH - Mountain Home, Ar.
-----------------------------------------
How much longer do I have to wait for 'Hollywood' to leave the U.S.A. ?

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by roylowenthal@...

Carbide is too brittle to use free hand, HSS dulls too rapidly in the abrasive board. (I once bought a box of carbide "re-sharps" - some of the smaller ones broke while pulling the foam packaging straight up!)

Part of the problem is that Cu is generally unpleasant to machine; it tends to pull the tool in. That same pulling can lift small pads/traces off the board if the drill is constrained. Center punching subjects the board to mechanical abuse that weakens the bond between the Cu & the board.

You're probably going to trash a few bits & some boards while finding the tools & techniques that fit your budget.

Roy

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by Kevin Byrne

I am right back to square on not being able to afford proxion and am looking at carbide drill and press seen at jameco.com but with no spec sheet. Jameco.com seems to be a good site, company ect. My peroxide bought at dollar store is the cause of long etch times. Has any one tried the edinbourgh etch method? Will food grade citric acid like ones sold on amazon.com work ok?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by Donald H Locker

Perhaps you should try buying peroxide at a real store. A pharmacy will have fresher peroxide; a beauty supply store will carry stronger concentrations.

Fresh peroxide and muriatic acid works extremely well. There is no need to start adding more chemicals to the mix. That will cost you time and money that could be better spent on good peroxide and laying out circuit boards.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:46:30 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board
>
> I am right back to square on not being able to afford proxion and am looking
> at carbide drill and press seen at jameco.com but with no spec sheet.
> Jameco.com seems to be a good site, company ect. My peroxide bought at
> dollar store is the cause of long etch times. Has any one tried the
> edinbourgh etch method? Will food grade citric acid like ones sold on
> amazon.com work ok?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by Harvey White

On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 08:46:30 +0000 (UTC), you wrote:

>I am right back to square on not being able to afford proxion and am looking at carbide drill and press seen at jameco.com but with no spec sheet.

The 12 volt proxxon will do fine, I have used both. Avoid Dremel, the
runout is bad. It's not designed with as much precision as the
proxxon. No experience with the proxxon drill stand, though.

>Jameco.com seems to be a good site, company ect.

They are. Higher the RPM the better (for small size bits).

>My peroxide bought at dollar store is the cause of long etch times.

Peroxide does expire, lose oxygen content.

>Has any one tried the edinbourgh etch method? Will food grade citric acid like ones sold on amazon.com work ok?

You may also find it in some food stores. Haven't tried it. Fresh
peroxide is the key, though.


Harvey

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Kevin

I use Edinburg etch with food grade citric acid. 10 minutes to etch a 6" x 4" board at 30'C. 6 years old and still going strong, etch time has shortened a little.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11/24/16, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, November 24, 2016, 8:46 AM


 









I am right
back to square on not being able to afford proxion and am
looking at carbide drill and press seen at jameco.com but
with no spec sheet. Jameco.com seems to be a good site,
company ect. My peroxide bought at dollar store is the cause
of long etch times. Has any one tried the edinbourgh etch
method? Will food grade citric acid like ones sold on
amazon.com work ok?









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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by Roland Harriston

Malcom and all:

I may be wrong, but I think that anything that will "oxidize" copper
will work.
Then something like muriatic acid will "dissolve" the copper oxide residue.
Correct me if I have it wrong.

Roland F. Harriston
****************

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-24 by cs6061@...

For drilling I use a small hand held DC motor fitted with a pin chuck.  A foot switch is used to activate the motor and when the switch is released it shorts the motor winding so the motor stops very fast. I have drilled a lot of holes with the thing over the past 40 years.  It's no good for carbide bits they are too brittle, just use the standard HSS bits.  Keep as small wet stone handy and just touch up the drill once in a while when it gets dull. I would think one of those small diamond flat files would work well.

 It helps to set the artwork up so the pads have an etched center to locate the drill to the center of the pad.  If you set this up correctly you can leave the motor running between holes and things go faster.  But you don't have to do it this way,  with the motor stopped you can center the bit on the pad and press it down a little to keep it from walking when you press the foot switch.

There is a photo  of it in the photos secton under the album Craigs photos.  Don't use it much anymore as I just order my PCB's on line.

Craig

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board any chemists here?

2016-11-26 by Rob

I've been using drug store 3% peroxide .... 100 mL mixed with 50 mL hardware store 30% muriactic acid.
I am NO chemist.
Do we have any chemists here that can tell us anything about these mixtures?
Like is it BAD to do 50/50 plus salt ... for any reason?
 



On 11/23/2016 08:35 PM, David Martin davemrtn@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

I have been getting good results with a 50/50 mix of muratic and 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, and I add table salt to accelerate the etching.


On 11/23/2016 19:30, duwaynes@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

When using muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide, the etching time mostly depends on the concentration of hydrogen peroxide used.  I usually get 12% peroxide from a beauty supply store.  With this concentration mixed 2 to one with muriatic acid the etch time is around 2 to 3 minutes.  This is a very exothermic reaction, and the solution will get hot very fast..  You really have t o watch closly with this concentration, because it can over etch very quickly.  I usually dilute this down to 6% to get around a 6 minute etch time.  With the 3%  from a drugstore I usually have a 12 to 15 minute etch time.  Peroxide can decrease in concentration after it ages or exposed to air. in a nearly empty container.
DuWayne KV4QB


-- 
David Martin - NA1MH - Mountain Home, Ar.
-----------------------------------------
How much longer do I have to wait for 'Hollywood' to leave the U.S.A. ?

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-11-30 by arvidj@...

I bought the Jameco PCB Drill and was quite disappointed. I found it to not be any better than the Dremel Workstation in rigidity and accuracy.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-01 by Camillus Blockx

Hi,
A good affordable hobby drill is from PROXON. Sears carry's these but only on ordering.

cb

On 11/30/2016 5:28:39 PM, arvidj@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I bought the Jameco PCB Drill and was quite disappointed. I found it to not be any better than the Dremel Workstation in rigidity and accuracy.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-01 by Steve B.

I will give the Proxxon drill a thumbs up also.

It does get warm if you run it for 20 minutes at a time though.

Don't over-tighten the little drive belt, it's not necessary.

I have a little light shining on the drill point area and also I found an air pump at the junk store to blow the dust away.

I've drilled several thousand hole with mine. !!



On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Camillus Blockx camillus_blockx@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi,
A good affordable hobby drill is from PROXON. Sears carry's these but only on ordering.

cb

On 11/30/2016 5:28:39 PM, arvidj@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com > wrote:

 

I bought the Jameco PCB Drill and was quite disappointed. I found it to not be any better than the Dremel Workstation in rigidity and accuracy.


Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-03 by arvidj@...

If the question was directed to me ...

Never bothered to even look at the motor run out. The stand was flexible enough that any reasonable motor run out would be a rounding error when added to the flex from the stand.

I really had high hopes as it looked great in the pictures. And maybe it would work for a few holes in a few boards if I took my time. But I just didn't want to fuss with it. Broke down, bought a Proxxon [which I also use for other things] and focused on the boards and not on the board building tools.


---In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <kbyrne10@...> wrote :

What was the run out like with your Jameco drill motor?

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-03 by Kevin Byrne

Thank you for your reply. All info that I receive is viewed and thought about with thought
and care. Kevin

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-04 by <n0tt1@...>

Hey Guys, RE flexiblity on the stands....FWIW, I purchased a small drill
stand from Sears....it was
a little too flexible until I tightened/"tweeked" all the Gibb screws.
That
took care of most of the flex.

But there was a problem with the model I have that is now ~10
years old or so...the sector gear, inside the housing that
allows the up/down motion, broke. It's made of plastic!! No amount of
glue
would repair that, so I made a replacement out of some aluminum, sawing
the teeth with a bandsaw. It's been working that way for quite awhile
with no issues.

Charlie


If the question was directed to me ...



Never bothered to even look at the motor run out. The stand was flexible
enough that any reasonable motor run out would be a rounding error when
added to the flex from the stand.


I really had high hopes as it looked great in the pictures. And maybe it
would work for a few holes in a few boards if I took my time. But I just
didn't want to fuss with it. Broke down, bought a Proxxon [which I also
use for other things] and focused on the boards and not on the board
building tools.



---In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <kbyrne10@...> wrote :


What was the run out like with your Jameco drill motor?



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Posted by: arvidj@...

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-05 by alienrelics@...

Please ask new questions by starting your own thread. YahooGroups doesn't do such a great job of making threads easy to search, and gives me no tools as a moderator to fix such problems.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD
your friendly neighborhood moderator

Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-10 by arvidj@...

Charlie,

I've done the same for my lathes and mills but this does not have any adjustments what so ever. Just a cast pot metal frame with holes drilled in the bosses on the corners thru which metal rods are inserted. If you squint real hard while intoxicated you might be tempted to call them "linear bearings" but they do not function as such.

Arvid  


---In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <n0tt1@...> wrote :

Hey Guys, RE flexiblity on the stands....FWIW, I purchased a small drill
stand from Sears....it was
a little too flexible until I tightened/"tweeked" all the Gibb screws.
That
took care of most of the flex.

Charlie


Re: Copper Clad Board

2016-12-26 by arvidj@...

I subscribe to Rick Sparber's web page and he just published this ... http://rick.sparber.org/DDPF.pdf ... I thought it might be of interest to those that want to give the Dremel drill press a try.

I am sure this does not eliminate the runout of the Dremel spindle itself nor does it resolve all of the issues in the drill press frame but might be worth a shot.

Disclaimer: I do not have not nor do I have a need to try this solution. I just thought it might be of interest to those looking for an inexpensive solution to drilling a few small holes and it has to be better than the hand held process.