Homebrew_PCBs

Gentlemen,

I followed this thread for a while. As far as I remember, I didn't see any attempt to transfer the toner to a pre-heated PCB, just applying pressure with a non-thermally conductive flat surface, (i.e. a piece of wood), hence at Amb. Temperature. My rationale is that we're attempting to stick the toner to a moderated hot surface, applying pressure and hotter temperature to the opposite side the transfer should go. In my opinion, this procedure might result adsorption of the toner by the paper, even with a glossy mag cover, second the paper being hotter than the copper substrate, it looks that things are happening preferably within the paper. Should the board be at the right Temp. (TBD), just before toner melting, the toner should be sticking to the copper instead of diffusing into the paper by capillarity.

The second thing I'm bothered by is the use of a Mylar film for retro-projector as transfer medium instead of paper. Combined or not with my first though.

May anybody point me to threads I missed or are simply these two thoughts not tested yet ?

kind regards

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 22:33:17 +0200, you wrote:

>Gentlemen,
>
>
>I followed this thread for a while. As far as I remember, I didn't see any attempt to transfer the toner to a pre-heated PCB, just applying pressure with a non-thermally conductive flat surface, (i.e. a piece of wood), hence at Amb. Temperature. My rationale is that we're attempting to stick the toner to a moderated hot surface, applying pressure and hotter temperature to the opposite side the transfer should go. In my opinion, this procedure might result adsorption of the toner by the paper, even with a glossy mag cover, second the paper being hotter than the copper substrate, it looks that things are happening preferably within the paper. Should the board be at the right Temp. (TBD), just before toner melting, the toner should be sticking to the copper instead of diffusing into the paper by capillarity.

That is one reason that with a laminator, the board is run through
multiple times. The first few are to heat the board.

I have not seen (although I have not used) normal paper absorbing the
toner. I think that the toner will adhere to the paper fibers, and
when the paper is soaked, the fibers lose contact with each other, the
paper disintegrates, and you are left with just paper fibers embedded
in the toner. Because this is done at a low (room) temperature, then
the bond between the toner and board is not likely to be broken unless
the board is scrubbed too hard.

Preheating the board may result in fewer passes, however, if the board
is too hot, the toner will start to smear when in contact with the
heated board. I (personally) don't do this. Therefore, I can't
comment on the parameters of that situation, but I suspect that the
board can only be heated so much.

>
>
>The second thing I'm bothered by is the use of a Mylar film for retro-projector as transfer medium instead of paper. Combined or not with my first though.

I've used a TEK film (once or twice) with poor results. The concept
is that the toner does not adhere to the mylar film and would rather
adhere to the board. Whether or not the film is pre-coated with
something that has a limited stick (for toner) is something I don't
know about.

However with Pulsar paper (or the equivalent, if any), there is a
dextrose (sugar) coating that the toner sticks to. When the paper is
wet, that coating dissolves and there is nothing holding the toner to
the paper, which then floats off. This depends on the bond between
the toner and the board to be reasonable, but not super tight.

When using glossy paper, the same situation happens but....

the paper coating may or may not dissolve.

if the paper is embedded in the toner, then sufficient scrubbing (or
perhaps just ignoring since the etchant gets around the paper) is
sufficient.

It's the same principle, however, it depends on a number of factors to
determine how effective the transfer is. That is one reason why all
methods of toner transfer (IMHO) require some tweaking of the process
to be successful.

>
>

Harvey

>
>
>
>
>
>
>May anybody point me to threads I missed or are simply these two thoughts not tested yet ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>kind regards
>

When I  do a board with Hot Toner Transfer I have always had better luck running the board through the Scotch laminator I use 3 times to preheat before I applied the paper.  Then 4 more times , once in each direction to transfer the toner.
There is information about using packing tape applied to printer paper as a transfer medium at
TheRandomLab: DIY PCBs on the cheap: toner transfer with Box Packing Tape and a Hair Straightener / IronI have not tried it, but have some small boards coming up so might give it a try.

DuWayne

kv4qb.blogspot.com

Hello again.
I have hot toner transfer down to a fairly precise system.
It's based on my modded Apache laminator:

https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/7938339619392/8a-Toner-Transfer-laminator.mp4

this is the complete approach:
https://hackaday.io/project/7938/files

Works every time.....

Ancel

Thanks to Harvey, DuWayne and Ancel for your replies.

For the moment, My PCBs are made with a CNC router. Unfortunately, in a short while, I won't any longer have access to it. Prior to going into tremendous tests, I prefer to prepare the ground...

This confirm that the substrate must be hot. The temperature is depending on a lot of factors and trials look to be the best way to proceed. One parameter at a time.

About the transparent film, I remember that there were several kinds of materials we were used to use when making slides. One time, a guy used the wrong one and wrapped the foil around the printer cylinder, it was completely stuck, what a mess ! So better to Double or triple check the printing temp cylinder as well as the film temp withstanding before putting it into the printer. !

Another idea went to my mind, inkjet printers use clay coated papers. Perhaps, they're the same as Harvey told about. Did anyone give a try to the inkjet paper ?

kind regards

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:17:17 +0200, you wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Thanks to Harvey, DuWayne and Ancel for your replies.
>
>
>For the moment, My PCBs are made with a CNC router. Unfortunately, in a short while, I won't any longer have access to it. Prior to going into tremendous tests, I prefer to prepare the ground...
>
>
>
>
>This confirm that the substrate must be hot. The temperature is depending on a lot of factors and trials look to be the best way to proceed. One parameter at a time.

The reason for going through the laminator (perhaps see any previous
posts that I have made) for 6 to 8 times is that the board warms up to
the right temperature (wear gloves) after about 4 passes.

>
>
>About the transparent film, I remember that there were several kinds of materials we were used to use when making slides. One time, a guy used the wrong one and wrapped the foil around the printer cylinder, it was completely stuck, what a mess ! So better to Double or triple check the printing temp cylinder as well as the film temp withstanding before putting it into the printer. !
>
>Another idea went to my mind, inkjet printers use clay coated papers. Perhaps, they're the same as Harvey told about. Did anyone give a try to the inkjet paper ?

Inkjets may have a plastic coated paper to absorb the ink. That will
melt (likely) in a laser printer. I'd only use something that is
rated for laser printers.

For toner transfer, you want a weak bond to the paper, and then an
easy release. Dextrose coated papers do this. Some may or may not
have had good results with transparent film. I haven't tried it in
years.

Harvey

>
>
>kind regards
>
>
>

Yellow ebay toner transfer paper is fine & convenient. Magazine paper is
ok as well, takes some soaking to get off, but heavy colour photos
(such as in Astronomy mag) can compromise the transfer, so u want more
text mags.
In both cases, sticking the transfer paper onto regular printer paper
with masking tape and offsetting the print down a bit prevents the laser
roller from getting paper jams from the thinner transfer paper.
I optimize my yellow toner transfer paper use by printing the outer
dimension of the PCB on a plain sheet first, then sticking a correctly
sized piece or cutting of toner transfer paper in the correct spot
(masking tape) and feeding the print through a second time. This time
with all the copper and silk screens layers active so they print on the
transfer paper alone.

HP1102W printer with cheap , non oem Toner works fine at about 330 to
340°F via my automated multipass APache Al13P process. I do 10 mil
traces reliably. I can turn a single sided board around in about 10
mins. Double sided takes longer due to registration drill holes and
alignments.

Regular craft laser foil (laminator) is used to finalize the board
before etching for solid pours and colored silk screens.

Cutting PCB can be done with a carbide tile cutting scribe or a 4"
diamond bladed table saw which is very precise for FR-1 PCB. FR-1 snaps
badly from scribing.
Proxxon tooling for drilling are much better than Dremel. Saves a lot
on not breaking carbide bits!. I can carve slots with my Proxxon
drill/press and a 1/16" carbide bit in the PCB.

Ancel

 

I just bought one of those Apache A113Ps off ebay for $175US – I read they do foil transfers reasonably well also?

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hot PCB toner Transfer

 

 

Yellow ebay toner transfer paper is fine & convenient. Magazine paper is
ok as well, takes some soaking to get off, but heavy colour photos
(such as in Astronomy mag) can compromise the transfer, so u want more
text mags.
In both cases, sticking the transfer paper onto regular printer paper
with masking tape and offsetting the print down a bit prevents the laser
roller from getting paper jams from the thinner transfer paper.
I optimize my yellow toner transfer paper use by printing the outer
dimension of the PCB on a plain sheet first, then sticking a correctly
sized piece or cutting of toner transfer paper in the correct spot
(masking tape) and feeding the print through a second time. This time
with all the copper and silk screens layers active so they print on the
transfer paper alone.

HP1102W printer with cheap , non oem Toner works fine at about 330 to
340°F via my automated multipass APache Al13P process. I do 10 mil
traces reliably. I can turn a single sided board around in about 10
mins. Double sided takes longer due to registration drill holes and
alignments.

Regular craft laser foil (laminator) is used to finalize the board
before etching for solid pours and colored silk screens.

Cutting PCB can be done with a carbide tile cutting scribe or a 4"
diamond bladed table saw which is very precise for FR-1 PCB. FR-1 snaps
badly from scribing.
Proxxon tooling for drilling are much better than Dremel. Saves a lot
on not breaking carbide bits!. I can carve slots with my Proxxon
drill/press and a 1/16" carbide bit in the PCB.

Ancel

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa
http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/

 

Yes sorry.. typed.  AL13P.  I’m hoping it’ll let me do my white foil transfers for silkscreen purposes.  $79!  Wow.. yeah haven’t seen one that cheap anywhere. 

 

Brad

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 2:53 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hot PCB toner Transfer

 

 

Do you mean the Apache AL13P ? If it you did, it's a great laminator, with the right modifications it will do PCBs in one pass. The were on sale on Amazon for a while, I got mine for $79 but they have not been available for a while.

On 7/13/2016 3:48 PM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

I just bought one of those Apache A113Ps off ebay for $175US – I read they do foil transfers reasonably well also?

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hot PCB toner Transfer

 

 

Yellow ebay toner transfer paper is fine & convenient. Magazine paper is
ok as well, takes some soaking to get off, but heavy colour photos
(such as in Astronomy mag) can compromise the transfer, so u want more
text mags.
In both cases, sticking the transfer paper onto regular printer paper
with masking tape and offsetting the print down a bit prevents the laser
roller from getting paper jams from the thinner transfer paper.
I optimize my yellow toner transfer paper use by printing the outer
dimension of the PCB on a plain sheet first, then sticking a correctly
sized piece or cutting of toner transfer paper in the correct spot
(masking tape) and feeding the print through a second time. This time
with all the copper and silk screens layers active so they print on the
transfer paper alone.

HP1102W printer with cheap , non oem Toner works fine at about 330 to
340°F via my automated multipass APache Al13P process. I do 10 mil
traces reliably. I can turn a single sided board around in about 10
mins. Double sided takes longer due to registration drill holes and
alignments.

Regular craft laser foil (laminator) is used to finalize the board
before etching for solid pours and colored silk screens.

Cutting PCB can be done with a carbide tile cutting scribe or a 4"
diamond bladed table saw which is very precise for FR-1 PCB. FR-1 snaps
badly from scribing.
Proxxon tooling for drilling are much better than Dremel. Saves a lot
on not breaking carbide bits!. I can carve slots with my Proxxon
drill/press and a 1/16" carbide bit in the PCB.

Ancel

 

 

-- 

Cecil - k5nwa

http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa
http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/

Yes the AL13P. It does craft foiling etc just fine. I did mod. my
rollers by wrapping them in Kapton tape to prevent them getting sticky
and degrading .
Got my first for $86 from Amazon and second for about $96 (still NIB).
Amazon stock only lasts about 3 months per year, so when it pops up you
need to get it.

I did the PIC mod on my Hackaday site to do the transfer in one step,
double sided or single sided.
ClubJameco carries the kit of all parts, if you prefer the convenience
of a kit.

https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-laminator-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer
https://hackaday.io/project/7938-pcb-smt-maker-lab-home

Ancel

That makes things clear.

Thanks a lot

 

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:17:17 +0200, you wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Thanks to Harvey, DuWayne and Ancel for your replies.
>
>
>For the moment, My PCBs are made with a CNC router. Unfortunately, in a short while, I won't any longer have access to it. Prior to going into tremendous tests, I prefer to prepare the ground...
>
>
>
>
>This confirm that the substrate must be hot. The temperature is depending on a lot of factors and trials look to be the best way to proceed. One parameter at a time.

The reason for going through the laminator (perhaps see any previous
posts that I have made) for 6 to 8 times is that the board warms up to
the right temperature (wear gloves) after about 4 passes.

>
>
>About the transparent film, I remember that there were several kinds of materials we were used to use when making slides. One time, a guy used the wrong one and wrapped the foil around the printer cylinder, it was completely stuck, what a mess ! So better to Double or triple check the printing temp cylinder as well as the film temp withstanding before putting it into the printer. !
>
>Another idea went to my mind, inkjet printers use clay coated papers. Perhaps, they're the same as Harvey told about. Did anyone give a try to the inkjet paper ?

Inkjets may have a plastic coated paper to absorb the ink. That will
melt (likely) in a laser printer. I'd only use something that is
rated for laser printers.

For toner transfer, you want a weak bond to the paper, and then an
easy release. Dextrose coated papers do this. Some may or may not
have had good results with transparent film. I haven't tried it in
years.

Harvey

>
>
>kind regards
>
>
>

Thanks a lot for these useful information.

I'm archiving the message for use within a close future.

 

Yellow ebay toner transfer paper is fine & convenient. Magazine paper is
ok as well, takes some soaking to get off, but heavy colour photos
(such as in Astronomy mag) can compromise the transfer, so u want more
text mags.
In both cases, sticking the transfer paper onto regular printer paper
with masking tape and offsetting the print down a bit prevents the laser
roller from getting paper jams from the thinner transfer paper.
I optimize my yellow toner transfer paper use by printing the outer
dimension of the PCB on a plain sheet first, then sticking a correctly
sized piece or cutting of toner transfer paper in the correct spot
(masking tape) and feeding the print through a second time. This time
with all the copper and silk screens layers active so they print on the
transfer paper alone.

HP1102W printer with cheap , non oem Toner works fine at about 330 to
340°F via my automated multipass APache Al13P process. I do 10 mil
traces reliably. I can turn a single sided board around in about 10
mins. Double sided takes longer due to registration drill holes and
alignments.

Regular craft laser foil (laminator) is used to finalize the board
before etching for solid pours and colored silk screens.

Cutting PCB can be done with a carbide tile cutting scribe or a 4"
diamond bladed table saw which is very precise for FR-1 PCB. FR-1 snaps
badly from scribing.
Proxxon tooling for drilling are much better than Dremel. Saves a lot
on not breaking carbide bits!. I can carve slots with my Proxxon
drill/press and a 1/16" carbide bit in the PCB.

Ancel

What is the max thickness of board that can be used with Apache?

I Made a slight mistake I would like to correct. My board is .036in. I have a laminator in mind but biggest size is 8mil to 10mil. How does this compare to Apache AL13P for thickness of boards? What are specs for Apache

The Apache has adjustable roller tensions should thicker boards be required.
Stock settings run standard boards fine (scissors cut to 1.6mm thick).

Since I made the auto multipass mod for the Apache and i own two of
them, i can only recommend it.

 

The last time I looked they said in my watch list out of stock, not known when they will be back in stock. Now I have to check out my Amazon site notifications better. Off to

buy one payday, nice thread also. Kevin

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa
http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/