Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

White TRF

2016-06-29 by Brad

I’ve a question about White Toner Reactive Foil – I bought a couple pages from a local outfit. My understanding is you put the dull side of the sheet down on your ‘silkscreen’ toner artwork and then run the thing through a laminator. Lacking a laminator, I tried ironing for a good few minutes.. but absolutely nothing happened. I can see a faint mark where my toner was on the TRF sheet, but that’s it.

Now, I did screw up earlier and put the shiny side down and tried ironing that way.. maybe that wrecked the foil?

Re: White TRF

2016-06-29 by AncelB

You don't need 'special' TRF, all laser printer craft foiling is TRF.
Never tired to iron on the foil though. A laminator pass is ideal, just
let the laminator temperature stabilize for 10 mins AFTER it reaches
temp for an even transfer onto thicker /metal substrates like a PCB.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] White TRF

2016-06-29 by Steve B.

Dull side down. You have to use a laminator or a lot of pressure and hot iron.

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:47 PM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I’ve a question about White Toner Reactive Foil – I bought a couple pages from a local outfit. My understanding is you put the dull side of the sheet down on your ‘silkscreen’ toner artwork and then run the thing through a laminator. Lacking a laminator, I tried ironing for a good few minutes.. but absolutely nothing happened. I can see a faint mark where my toner was on the TRF sheet, but that’s it.

Now, I did screw up earlier and put the shiny side down and tried ironing that way.. maybe that wrecked the foil?

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] White TRF

2016-06-29 by Brad

Thanks guys. Do you think I may have ruined the first sheet with having the iron on the dull side that first time?

I tried again with max pressure, lots of heat.. but all it seemed to do was lift a bit of toner from the PCB.

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 7:13 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] White TRF

Dull side down. You have to use a laminator or a lot of pressure and hot iron.

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:47 PM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I’ve a question about White Toner Reactive Foil – I bought a couple pages from a local outfit. My understanding is you put the dull side of the sheet down on your ‘silkscreen’ toner artwork and then run the thing through a laminator. Lacking a laminator, I tried ironing for a good few minutes.. but absolutely nothing happened. I can see a faint mark where my toner was on the TRF sheet, but that’s it.

Now, I did screw up earlier and put the shiny side down and tried ironing that way.. maybe that wrecked the foil?

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-06-29 by Marc OLANIE

Hi

>You don't need 'special' TRF, all laser printer craft foiling is TRF.

Nice info… could you provide any info or reference concerning this kind of foil ?

Tnks !

Marc

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-06-30 by Brad

Okay. So yeah.. it just doesn’t work at all. Tried the laminator but the TRF wouldn’t stick (probably the laminator’s fault.. not hot enough). So then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting toner from the board.

Kind of disappointed. Oh well. J They do have white toner printers out now. $3000+ each though. J

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-06-30 by Harvey White

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:47:38 -0700, you wrote:

>Okay. So yeah.. it just doesnt work at all. Tried the laminator but the TRF wouldnt stick (probably the laminators fault.. not hot enough). So then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting toner from the board.

The laminator I use is a simple GBC creative laminator. It's probably
an old model. What you might want is a laminator with a foil setting.

You can try with a simple laser print to experiment with, running the
laser printed paper through the laminator. Dull side to the toner. I
have had occasional sheets where (for whatever reason) the foil
refuses to adhere at all. You simply let the foil cool naturally and
then peel it off. Oil or water is not your friend here.

I'd use small pieces and hold them on with tape.

If the laminator will do a piece of paper, then it's getting hot
enough for that foil. If not, then something is odd. Next step would
be the board, and that will take a while to get hot.

Harvey

>
>
>
>Kind of disappointed. Oh well. :) They do have white toner printers out now. $3000+ each though. :)

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-07-10 by Brad

Made another attempt with the TRF… massive pressure with my iron. But it still doesn’t work – what is happening is the toner is bonding to the TRF and when you lift the TRF it takes the toner with it?!

I’m trying to think of what might be going wrong here… problems with my toner? The fact that the boards are FR4?

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 6:14 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:47:38 -0700, you wrote:

>Okay. So yeah.. it just doesn’t work at all. Tried the laminator but the TRF wouldn’t stick (probably the laminator’s fault.. not hot enough). So then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting toner from the board.

The laminator I use is a simple GBC creative laminator. It's probably
an old model. What you might want is a laminator with a foil setting.

You can try with a simple laser print to experiment with, running the
laser printed paper through the laminator. Dull side to the toner. I
have had occasional sheets where (for whatever reason) the foil
refuses to adhere at all. You simply let the foil cool naturally and
then peel it off. Oil or water is not your friend here.

I'd use small pieces and hold them on with tape.

If the laminator will do a piece of paper, then it's getting hot
enough for that foil. If not, then something is odd. Next step would
be the board, and that will take a while to get hot.

Harvey

>
>
>
>Kind of disappointed. Oh well. :) They do have white toner printers out now. $3000+ each though. :)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-07-10 by Harvey White

On Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:39:45 -0700, you wrote:

>Made another attempt with the TRF. massive pressure with my iron. But it
>still doesn't work - what is happening is the toner is bonding to the TRF
>and when you lift the TRF it takes the toner with it?!

Massive pressure sounds wrong. You want the toner to be tacky. The
pigment on the foil is very lightly attached. Run a sample of the
foil attached to a laser copy through a laser printer that's going to
print a blank page. You should get perfect adherence.

>
>
>
>I'm trying to think of what might be going wrong here. problems with my
>toner? The fact that the boards are FR4?

I use FR4 boards, so no problem there. Your toner may or may not be
adhering to the board well, that's a thought. I really wish you had a
laminator to use, I think it would even out the questions about iron
temperature and pressure.

Generally, when making a board, too much heat and pressure will cause
the toner to spread out. Ideally, you want enough to make the toner
tacky, and perhaps locally melt it, but not liquefy it, so tacky and
tarry is good. Now in addition, you want just enough pressure to
eliminate air voids, I don't think you need much more.

Harvey

>
>
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 6:14 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:47:38 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Okay. So yeah.. it just doesn't work at all. Tried the laminator but the
>TRF wouldn't stick (probably the laminator's fault.. not hot enough). So
>then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked
>the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting
>toner from the board.
>
>The laminator I use is a simple GBC creative laminator. It's probably
>an old model. What you might want is a laminator with a foil setting.
>
>You can try with a simple laser print to experiment with, running the
>laser printed paper through the laminator. Dull side to the toner. I
>have had occasional sheets where (for whatever reason) the foil
>refuses to adhere at all. You simply let the foil cool naturally and
>then peel it off. Oil or water is not your friend here.
>
>I'd use small pieces and hold them on with tape.
>
>If the laminator will do a piece of paper, then it's getting hot
>enough for that foil. If not, then something is odd. Next step would
>be the board, and that will take a while to get hot.
>
>Harvey
>
>>
>>
>>
>>Kind of disappointed. Oh well. :) They do have white toner printers out
>now. $3000+ each though. :)
>
>

Re: White TRF

2016-07-10 by alienrelics@...

How are you cleaning the copper board? It should be cleaned with a good degreaser. You should be wearing rubber gloves, or at least wash your hands with dishsoap and don't touch the surface of the board with your fingers.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-07-11 by <n0tt1@...>

I'll throw this out there just in case.....

Is the copper really clean? If water beads up on the copper *anywhere*

the copper isn't clean enough for laser toner-resist....water should just

"spread out" on the copper.

When scrubbing the board with say, "Bar Keeper's Friend powder", before applying

the toner, pay special attention to the corners.

Charlie

Made another attempt with the TRF… massive pressure with my iron. But it still doesn’t work – what is happening is the toner is bonding to the TRF and when you lift the TRF it takes the toner with it?!

I’m trying to think of what might be going wrong here… problems with my toner? The fact that the boards are FR4?

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 6:14 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:47:38 -0700, you wrote:

>Okay. So yeah.. it just doesn’t work at all. Tried the

laminator but the TRF wouldn’t stick (probably the laminator’s fault.. not hot enough). So then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting toner from the board.

The laminator I use is a simple GBC creative laminator. It's probably
an old model. What you might want is a laminator with a foil setting.

You can try with a simple laser print to experiment with, running the
laser printed paper through the laminator. Dull side to the toner. I
have had occasional sheets where (for whatever reason) the foil
refuses to adhere at all. You simply let the foil cool naturally and
then peel it off. Oil or water is not your friend here.

I'd use small pieces and hold them on with tape.

If the laminator will do a piece of paper, then it's getting hot
enough for that foil. If not, then something is odd. Next step would
be the board, and that will take a while to get hot.

Harvey

>
>
>
>Kind of disappointed. Oh

well. :) They do have white toner printers out now. $3000+ each though. :)

Posted by: "Brad" <unclefalter@...>

Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (8)

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF [3 Attachments]

2016-07-11 by kabowers@...

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 04:00:54 +0000, you wrote:

>I'll throw this out there just in case.....
>
>Is the copper really clean? If water beads up on the copper *anywhere*
>the copper isn't clean enough for laser toner-resist....water should just
>"spread out" on the copper.
>
>When scrubbing the board with say, "Bar Keeper's Friend powder", before
>applying
>the toner, pay special attention to the corners.
>
>Charlie
>

Last cleaning step; Wash the board off with 90+% alcohol,
tilt the board and air dry. Either let it sit awhile or place in front of a fan.
Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF [3 Attachments]

2016-07-11 by Brad

Well, the thing is, this is a single sided PCB.. so the ‘silkscreen’ I’m trying to do is on the side with no copper. So I’m doing toner transfer to that, and it’s working great.. toner transfers quite easily, nice and crisp. But when I do the TRF.. the toner attaches to the TRF and then pulls up from the board.

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:01 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF [3 Attachments]

I'll throw this out there just in case.....

Is the copper really clean? If water beads up on the copper *anywhere*

the copper isn't clean enough for laser toner-resist....water should just

"spread out" on the copper.

When scrubbing the board with say, "Bar Keeper's Friend powder", before applying

the toner, pay special attention to the corners.

Charlie

Made another attempt with the TRF… massive pressure with my iron. But it still doesn’t work – what is happening is the toner is bonding to the TRF and when you lift the TRF it takes the toner with it?!

I’m trying to think of what might be going wrong here… problems with my toner? The fact that the boards are FR4?

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 6:14 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:47:38 -0700, you wrote:

>Okay. So yeah.. it just doesn’t work at all. Tried the laminator but the TRF wouldn’t stick (probably the laminator’s fault.. not hot enough). So then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting toner from the board.

The laminator I use is a simple GBC creative laminator. It's probably
an old model. What you might want is a laminator with a foil setting.

You can try with a simple laser print to experiment with, running the
laser printed paper through the laminator. Dull side to the toner. I
have had occasional sheets where (for whatever reason) the foil
refuses to adhere at all. You simply let the foil cool naturally and
then peel it off. Oil or water is not your friend here.

I'd use small pieces and hold them on with tape.

If the laminator will do a piece of paper, then it's getting hot
enough for that foil. If not, then something is odd. Next step would
be the board, and that will take a while to get hot.

Harvey

>
>
>
>Kind of disappointed. Oh well. :) They do have white toner printers out now. $3000+ each though. :)

Posted by: "Brad" <unclefalter@...>

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (8)

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF

2016-07-11 by Harvey White

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:54:16 -0700, you wrote:

>Well, the thing is, this is a single sided PCB.. so the 'silkscreen' I'm
>trying to do is on the side with no copper. So I'm doing toner transfer to
>that, and it's working great.. toner transfers quite easily, nice and crisp.
>But when I do the TRF.. the toner attaches to the TRF and then pulls up from
>the board.

You're using the white TRF from Pulsar? Or are you using another
variety? No idea how these may or may not differ, but with the Pulsar
film, you may need to go over it with some masking tape (very lightly)
because the film comes off in pieces. This certainly indicates that
the toner adheres quite well.

After you clean the board (you do, don't you?), and run it through a
laminator (or iron it) as much as you would to put a pattern on
copper, then the silk screen is "run through twice" for me.

Harvey

>
>
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:01 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF [3 Attachments]
>
>
>
>
>
>I'll throw this out there just in case.....
>
>
>
>Is the copper really clean? If water beads up on the copper *anywhere*
>
>the copper isn't clean enough for laser toner-resist....water should just
>
>"spread out" on the copper.
>
>
>
>When scrubbing the board with say, "Bar Keeper's Friend powder", before
>applying
>
>the toner, pay special attention to the corners.
>
>
>
>Charlie
>
>
>
>Made another attempt with the TRF. massive pressure with my iron. But it
>still doesn't work - what is happening is the toner is bonding to the TRF
>and when you lift the TRF it takes the toner with it?!
>
>I'm trying to think of what might be going wrong here. problems with my
>toner? The fact that the boards are FR4?
>
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 6:14 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: White TRF
>
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:47:38 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Okay. So yeah.. it just doesn't work at all. Tried the laminator but the
>TRF wouldn't stick (probably the laminator's fault.. not hot enough). So
>then I did extremely hard pressing with the iron for 10 full minutes. Dunked
>the thing in water.. but yeah. Nothing. If anything, the TRF is lifting
>toner from the board.
>
>The laminator I use is a simple GBC creative laminator. It's probably
>an old model. What you might want is a laminator with a foil setting.
>
>You can try with a simple laser print to experiment with, running the
>laser printed paper through the laminator. Dull side to the toner. I
>have had occasional sheets where (for whatever reason) the foil
>refuses to adhere at all. You simply let the foil cool naturally and
>then peel it off. Oil or water is not your friend here.
>
>I'd use small pieces and hold them on with tape.
>
>If the laminator will do a piece of paper, then it's getting hot
>enough for that foil. If not, then something is odd. Next step would
>be the board, and that will take a while to get hot.
>
>Harvey
>
>>
>>
>>
>>Kind of disappointed. Oh well. :) They do have white toner printers out
>now. $3000+ each though. :)
>
> _____
>
>Posted by: "Brad" <unclefalter@...>
>
> _____
>
>
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> <https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest rated email app?
>
>With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app
>on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes
>(Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again
>with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
>
> _____
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>.
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