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DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-26 by mark.phillis@...

Hi all.

I've been a member for a while now subscribing some time ago when I was intending to try my hand at making my own pcb. I've now got around to making my very first.


My first attempt while not looking bad didn't cut the mustard. It's a double sided pcb. I send Kicad to draw my circuit and lay out the PCB. I purchase some press and peel at a very costly £19 and have to admit I used most of it before being happy with results. I've followed the instructions, watched hours of online videos before even starting. Using an old toner printer the print came out really well but when it came to transferring the image to the board I was less than pleased. To try and overcome missing areas I enlarged my traces and vias but sill did not come out as I'd like. Admitting defeat I used a sharpie to fill in. Being double sided I made registration dots to aid lining up I even drilled the the board and was convinced the lining up would be spot on...HOW wrong was I. Not far out but the Vias did not line up.

I am somewhat deflated but don't want to give in. I really thing it's time to move from 'press and peel' to save loss of cash.mbut I thing I need advice.

I looking for advice on-

Do I move away from 'Pres and pell blue'?

Would running it twice give my better results?

How to line up double layers.?


I'll put a cpouple of photos in to show.

Thanks in advance Mark




Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-27 by Harvey White

On 26 Jun 2016 08:41:22 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi all.
> I've been a member for a while now subscribing some time ago when I was intending to try my hand at making my own pcb. I've now got around to making my very first.
>
>
> My first attempt while not looking bad didn't cut the mustard. It's a double sided pcb. I send Kicad to draw my circuit and lay out the PCB. I purchase some press and peel at a very costly £19 and have to admit I used most of it before being happy with results. I've followed the instructions, watched hours of online videos before even starting. Using an old toner printer the print came out really well but when it came to transferring the image to the board I was less than pleased. To try and overcome missing areas I enlarged my traces and vias but sill did not come out as I'd like. Admitting defeat I used a sharpie to fill in. Being double sided I made registration dots to aid lining up I even drilled the the board and was convinced the lining up would be spot on...HOW wrong was I. Not far out but the Vias did not line up.
> I am somewhat deflated but don't want to give in. I really thing it's time to move from 'press and peel' to save loss of cash.mbut I thing I need advice.
> I looking for advice on-
> Do I move away from 'Pres and pell blue'?

Never used it, I use Pulsar paper, which is best used with a
laminator, and then is soaked off (comes off almost instantly).

> Would running it twice give my better results?

Not through the laser printer, no. Most laser printers do not
register things precisely enough to be able to do a dual copy.

> How to line up double layers.?
I make a top and bottom board, with very thin PC board (roughly 0.020
inches is what I have available).

I do them separately and epoxy them together using alignment holes

Harvey

>
>
> I'll put a cpouple of photos in to show.
> Thanks in advance Mark
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-27 by Phil Quinton

Mark,

I've used press and peel for a while. I've not done a huge number of boards, but I did get varying results. I've not done double sided and to be honest, based on how fiddly it is I'd probably not try. Here's what I found (for single sided) helped:

1. Make sure the print settings have the contrast as high as possible.. you want it very very black.
2. Make sure the copper is spotless, and I mean spotless. I used 600 grit wet and dry (no water) to "polish" the copper. In truth it covers the surface with a lot of very fine scratches.. but it gets rid of any oxidisation on the surface.
3. Clean the board with IPA. At this point you don't want to get your fingers on it as I found the oils from my fingers upset things.
4. Place cut press 'n' peel on the board, put a piece of paper on back and apply hot iron for a bit.
5. Remove iron and paper, and run through laminator a few times.
6. Let is stand to cool, then remove press 'n' peel.

The issue I always found was with the iron/laminator not heating the board up correctly, or poor consistency. After many attempts and a few good and bad boards, I gave up. It was reading this list, and the recent discussion of the cold transfer process, that got be back to making my own PCB's again. The cold transfer process (with gloss laser paper) has, so far, given me consistent results.

Thanks,
Phil.

On 26/06/16 16:41, mark.phillis@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

Hi all.

I've been a member for a while now subscribing some time ago when I was intending to try my hand at making my own pcb. I've now got around to making my very first.


My first attempt while not looking bad didn't cut the mustard. It's a double sided pcb. I send Kicad to draw my circuit and lay out the PCB. I purchase some press and peel at a very costly £19 and have to admit I used most of it before being happy with results. I've followed the instructions, watched hours of online videos before even starting. Using an old toner printer the print came out really well but when it came to transferring the image to the board I was less than pleased. To try and overcome missing areas I enlarged my traces and vias but sill did not come out as I'd like. Admitting defeat I used a sharpie to fill in. Being double sided I made registration dots to aid lining up I even drilled the the board and was convinced the lining up would be spot on...HOW wrong was I. Not far out but the Vias did not line up.

I am somewhat deflated but don't want to give in. I really thing it's time to move from 'press and peel' to save loss of cash.mbut I thing I need advice.

I looking for advice on-

Do I move away from 'Pres and pell blue'?

Would running it twice give my better results?

How to line up double layers.?


I'll put a cpouple of photos in to show.

Thanks in advance Mark





Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-27 by M phillis

Thanks Harvy and Phil 
It has been quite frustrating as I'd assumed I'd payed particulate attention to cleaning the board. I'll try the wet/dry method to see if it improves.

Wiill any laminator do or should I look for a particular type?
I'll take a look at pulsar but with the blue press and peel at the moment it's getting rather expensive.

I like the sound of the heat less method there's a tutorial here-

I'm tempted to do the double layers on two thinner  boards saves much grief but I don't like to be best ( but I'm close).

The results weren't two bad on the actual board had plent of filling in with the sharpie but vias and oval tracks aren't easy.

Thanks for now


On Monday, 27 June 2016, Phil Quinton phil.quinton@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Mark,

I've used press and peel for a while. I've not done a huge number of boards, but I did get varying results. I've not done double sided and to be honest, based on how fiddly it is I'd probably not try. Here's what I found (for single sided) helped:

1. Make sure the print settings have the contrast as high as possible.. you want it very very black.
2. Make sure the copper is spotless, and I mean spotless. I used 600 grit wet and dry (no water) to "polish" the copper. In truth it covers the surface with a lot of very fine scratches.. but it gets rid of any oxidisation on the surface.
3. Clean the board with IPA. At this point you don't want to get your fingers on it as I found the oils from my fingers upset things.
4. Place cut press 'n' peel on the board, put a piece of paper on back and apply hot iron for a bit.
5. Remove iron and paper, and run through laminator a few times.
6. Let is stand to cool, then remove press 'n' peel.

The issue I always found was with the iron/laminator not heating the board up correctly, or poor consistency. After many attempts and a few good and bad boards, I gave up. It was reading this list, and the recent discussion of the cold transfer process, that got be back to making my own PCB's again. The cold transfer process (with gloss laser paper) has, so far, given me consistent results.

Thanks,
Phil.

On 26/06/16 16:41, mark.phillis@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

Hi all.

I've been a member for a while now subscribing some time ago when I was intending to try my hand at making my own pcb. I've now got around to making my very first.


My first attempt while not looking bad didn't cut the mustard. It's a double sided pcb. I send Kicad to draw my circuit and lay out the PCB. I purchase some press and peel at a very costly £19 and have to admit I used most of it before being happy with results. I've followed the instructions, watched hours of online videos before even starting. Using an old toner printer the print came out really well but when it came to transferring the image to the board I was less than pleased. To try and overcome missing areas I enlarged my traces and vias but sill did not come out as I'd like. Admitting defeat I used a sharpie to fill in. Being double sided I made registration dots to aid lining up I even drilled the the board and was convinced the lining up would be spot on...HOW wrong was I. Not far out but the Vias did not line up.

I am somewhat deflated but don't want to give in. I really thing it's time to move from 'press and peel' to save loss of cash.mbut I thing I need advice.

I looking for advice on-

Do I move away from 'Pres and pell blue'?

Would running it twice give my better results?

How to line up double layers.?


I'll put a cpouple of photos in to show.

Thanks in advance Mark





Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-27 by Harvey White

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:59:34 +0100, you wrote:

>Thanks Harvy and Phil
>It has been quite frustrating as I'd assumed I'd payed particulate
>attention to cleaning the board. I'll try the wet/dry method to see if it
>improves.

The main problem with board that I've seen is either oils/contaminants
or (perhaps) a too smooth surface. You don't want it very rough, but
I generally do a sanding with 1000 grit wet/dry paper, then a cleaning
with an abrasive cleaner, such as bon-ami. I wear gloves during all
stages. At the very last, I will clean with an acetone wipe. You
will find that as the water dries, the board will discolor. This
apparently makes no difference, and the discoloration will not survive
contact with the etchant.

>
>Wiill any laminator do or should I look for a particular type?

I use a GBC creative laminator, very inexpensive, but does not like
1/16 inch boards. It prefers thinner boards.

I do run the board through anything between 6 and 8 times depending on
the size of the board. 3 or four times facing up, and 3 or 4 times
facing down (makes heat transfer more even, I think).

The Pulsar paper just floats off, since it's dextrose coated paper.
Costs about 1 dollar a sheet, you cut to more or less size and hold in
place (one place, leading edge), with a cut down laser label.

>I'll take a look at pulsar but with the blue press and peel at the moment
>it's getting rather expensive.

A board will likely cost you anything between a dollar and 3 dollars
depending on size.
>
>I like the sound of the heat less method there's a tutorial here-
>http://www.instructables.com/id/Heatless-cold-Toner-Transfer-for-PCB-Making/
>
>I'm tempted to do the double layers on two thinner boards saves much grief
>but I don't like to be best ( but I'm close).

With the dual board method, you want to use a slow setting (1 hour)
epoxy (don't ask why). stubby pins for the registration holes, and
very precise drilling for those holes. I'd suggest the upside down
drill press or the camera/optical method of determining exactly where
the drill will go. Looking from the side introduces a parallax error
which can and will ruin two layer boards.

>
>The results weren't two bad on the actual board had plent of filling in
>with the sharpie but vias and oval tracks aren't easy.

You may find that the green film will help a lot.

Harvey


>Mark p dig pcb. attempt
><https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/albums/254242919>
>
>Thanks for now
>
>
>On Monday, 27 June 2016, Phil Quinton phil.quinton@...
>[Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I've used press and peel for a while. I've not done a huge number of
>> boards, but I did get varying results. I've not done double sided and to be
>> honest, based on how fiddly it is I'd probably not try. Here's what I found
>> (for single sided) helped:
>>
>> 1. Make sure the print settings have the contrast as high as possible..
>> you want it very very black.
>> 2. Make sure the copper is spotless, and I mean spotless. I used 600 grit
>> wet and dry (no water) to "polish" the copper. In truth it covers the
>> surface with a lot of very fine scratches.. but it gets rid of any
>> oxidisation on the surface.
>> 3. Clean the board with IPA. At this point you don't want to get your
>> fingers on it as I found the oils from my fingers upset things.
>> 4. Place cut press 'n' peel on the board, put a piece of paper on back and
>> apply hot iron for a bit.
>> 5. Remove iron and paper, and run through laminator a few times.
>> 6. Let is stand to cool, then remove press 'n' peel.
>>
>> The issue I always found was with the iron/laminator not heating the board
>> up correctly, or poor consistency. After many attempts and a few good and
>> bad boards, I gave up. It was reading this list, and the recent discussion
>> of the cold transfer process, that got be back to making my own PCB's
>> again. The cold transfer process (with gloss laser paper) has, so far,
>> given me consistent results.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 26/06/16 16:41, mark.phillis@...
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mark.phillis@...');> [Homebrew_PCBs]
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all.
>>
>> I've been a member for a while now subscribing some time ago when I was
>> intending to try my hand at making my own pcb. I've now got around to
>> making my very first.
>>
>>
>> My first attempt while not looking bad didn't cut the mustard. It's a
>> double sided pcb. I send Kicad to draw my circuit and lay out the PCB. I
>> purchase some press and peel at a very costly £19 and have to admit I used
>> most of it before being happy with results. I've followed the instructions,
>> watched hours of online videos before even starting. Using an old toner
>> printer the print came out really well but when it came to transferring the
>> image to the board I was less than pleased. To try and overcome missing
>> areas I enlarged my traces and vias but sill did not come out as I'd like.
>> Admitting defeat I used a sharpie to fill in. Being double sided I made
>> registration dots to aid lining up I even drilled the the board and was
>> convinced the lining up would be spot on...HOW wrong was I. Not far out but
>> the Vias did not line up.
>>
>> I am somewhat deflated but don't want to give in. I really thing it's time
>> to move from 'press and peel' to save loss of cash.mbut I thing I need
>> advice.
>>
>> I looking for advice on-
>>
>> Do I move away from 'Pres and pell blue'?
>>
>> Would running it twice give my better results?
>>
>> How to line up double layers.?
>>
>>
>> I'll put a cpouple of photos in to show.
>>
>> Thanks in advance Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-27 by Harvey White

On 27 Jun 2016 12:20:37 -0700, you wrote:

>Regarding multiple manual passes thru a laminator.
>Here is my solution for that. A modded multi-overlapping-pass laminator. Single or double sided boards automatically in one automated multi pass.
>https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/7938339619392/8a-Toner-Transfer-laminator.mp4 https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/7938339619392/8a-Toner-Transfer-laminator.mp4

Seems to me that works if and only if there is enough "waste" space at
the end and the beginning of the board to enable reversing after the
"active" zone has been passed.

Nice idea, though.

Harvey


>
>This is the laminator upgrade project.
>https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-laminator-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-laminator-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-27 by Brad

I thought the whole point of press and peel was that it was supposed to be easy?  Not sounding easy!  I actually bought a bunch but now am kind of wondering if I might regret it.

 

I’m finding just printing to Hot Rod Magazine pages and being patient with ironing gives me pretty close to 100% results these days. 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-28 by Harvey White

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:53:02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought the whole point of press and peel was that it was supposed to be
>easy? Not sounding easy! I actually bought a bunch but now am kind of
>wondering if I might regret it.

I think I've got some press and peel somewhere.

The whole idea is as follows (regardless of press & peel or Pulsar...
the difference is how the toner is released).

Clean board.
Print pattern on paper.
run through laminator or iron. Toner becomes soft and adheres to
board, gluing paper to board.

remove paper by either peeling (board to toner is more sticky than
toner to paper)

remove paper by soaking paper (layer of sugar (dextrose) dissolves,
leaving nothing to hold toner to paper).

dry, put on foil if needed, and etch.

What results you get indicate (rather directly) what part doesn't
work.

Variables on toner adhering to board are cleanliness (mostly oils),
non sticky toner (too low temperature), too little pressure (no
adhesion), too much pressure (spreading), too hot (spreading).



>
>
>
>I'm finding just printing to Hot Rod Magazine pages and being patient with
>ironing gives me pretty close to 100% results these days.


You may find a laminator to be more dependable since there are less
variables. Pressure and temperature are more precisely controlled.

Harvey

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-28 by DJ Delorie

"Harvey White madyn@... [Homebrew_PCBs]"
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> writes:
> Variables on toner adhering to board are cleanliness (mostly oils),
> non sticky toner (too low temperature), too little pressure (no
> adhesion), too much pressure (spreading), too hot (spreading).

Also too smooth (sanding to too-high a grit, or not scuffing)

Toner won't stick to a mirror-finish copper as well as it will stick to
a roughed-up copper (or a "rough" paper).

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-28 by M phillis

Rod pretty much as I thought before buying press and peel blue at £19 a pack only to find the instruction don't cover what we discus. 
Mark

On Tuesday, 28 June 2016, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I thought the whole point of press and peel was that it was supposed to be easy?  Not sounding easy!  I actually bought a bunch but now am kind of wondering if I might regret it.

 

I’m finding just printing to Hot Rod Magazine pages and being patient with ironing gives me pretty close to 100% results these days. 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-28 by M phillis

Some great advice here guys, I'll try anything to succeed as for me a nice DIY pcb. is a thing of buty.

I'm looking in to pressing with a laminator but have to do the homework as don't want to buy one no good for the job. I'm from the uk. so wanting to shop around here.

As I said before my first double sided yet simple board eventually came out good enough (other than lining up the tow layers) but it's too expensive probs works out at £3-4 per sheet and I've gone through a pack to get my first board.

As for the drilling I've looked at using a USB. microscope below the table with a crosshair software to view. Any thoughts?

Over the years whilst being a silent observer of this group IVe seen many talk about glossy magazine as a transfer media. But today as I arrived at work I looked to see if we had any glossy coated laser paper, unfortunately not. I need to look and see where to purchase this from and pulsar, I'll give it all a go until I'm happy.

Regards 
Mark

On Tuesday, 28 June 2016, M phillis <mark.phillis@...> wrote:
Rod pretty much as I thought before buying press and peel blue at £19 a pack only to find the instruction don't cover what we discus. 
Mark

On Tuesday, 28 June 2016, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I thought the whole point of press and peel was that it was supposed to be easy?  Not sounding easy!  I actually bought a bunch but now am kind of wondering if I might regret it.

 

I’m finding just printing to Hot Rod Magazine pages and being patient with ironing gives me pretty close to 100% results these days. 

Re: DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-28 by AncelB

The laminator does not need any extra space, it runs forward/back all
the time once instructed for a net 1/4" step forward each cycle. I have
done boards down to 1" long on it.
Ancel

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-06-28 by Tony Fishpool

Mark,

I'm UK based too. I got lucky with an EBay purchase of a used business grade laminator. It is the same model as this one..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laminator-A3-GBC-Heatseal-H425-High-Speed-Laminator-/281857258687?hash=item41a00074bf:g:KPYAAOSwAKxWVZXh

2nd hand it is 60 quid but look up the new price and prepare to be shocked.

The GBC I have is perfect for the job of toner transfer process. Cheap home devices that I've tried don't get hot enough - perhaps if they have a temperature knob that could be turned to full they would catch fire! - With a quality business model that's probably less likely. Mine is very well made and will probably last for years.

Kind regards

Tony G4WIF 

 

 

 

I'm looking in to pressing with a laminator but have to do the homework as don't want to buy one no good for the job. I'm from the uk. so wanting to shop around here.
Regards 
Mark

 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue. [1 Attachment]

2016-07-01 by M phillis

Hi Tony
Thanks for that. I've made an offer close to the asking price. I'm really hoping it proves better than the iron. What media do you use to transfer the toner? The board I did looked really well and if the layers lined up it would have done but they didn't so that was that. What really peeved my off was the inconsistency in the printing, too difficult to draw in missing tracks I wasted more of the press and peel blue paper than was expected.

Regards
Mark

On Tuesday, 28 June 2016, Tony Fishpool g4wif_tony@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Mark,

I'm UK based too. I got lucky with an EBay purchase of a used business grade laminator. It is the same model as this one..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laminator-A3-GBC-Heatseal-H425-High-Speed-Laminator-/281857258687?hash=item41a00074bf:g:KPYAAOSwAKxWVZXh

2nd hand it is 60 quid but look up the new price and prepare to be shocked.

The GBC I have is perfect for the job of toner transfer process. Cheap home devices that I've tried don't get hot enough - perhaps if they have a temperature knob that could be turned to full they would catch fire! - With a quality business model that's probably less likely. Mine is very well made and will probably last for years.

Kind regards

Tony G4WIF 

 

 

 

I'm looking in to pressing with a laminator but have to do the homework as don't want to buy one no good for the job. I'm from the uk. so wanting to shop around here.
Regards 
Mark

 

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-07-01 by Tony Fishpool

Mark, by “media” do you mean paper?

 

I use paper from Viking River Cruises brochures. They send them to me for free!

 

This is a board I made for an Arduino Nano:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1987387/blog/nano_protoboard.jpg

 

As you can see, the process is good enough to etch labels and pretty narrow tracks. I have the temperature set to “max”.

 

As we now have similar laminators. Mail me offline if you want to compare notes.

 

Kind regards

Tony G4WIF

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

Hi Tony

Thanks for that. I've made an offer close to the asking price. I'm really hoping it proves better than the iron. What media do you use to transfer the toner? The board I did looked really well and if the layers lined up it would have done but they didn't so that was that. What really peeved my off was the inconsistency in the printing, too difficult to draw in missing tracks I wasted more of the press and peel blue paper than was expected.

 

Regards

Mark


__

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-07-02 by <n0tt1@...>

Guys,
 
I've always had a problem using magazine/printed papers.....my registration
marks and most of the traces are VERY hard to see over the ink on
the paper, so I no longer use that "media".  Has anyone else had that problem?
 
Charlie
 
 
 
Mark, by “media” do you mean paper?
 
 
 
I use paper from Viking River Cruises brochures. They send them to me for free!
 
 
 
This is a board I made for an Arduino Nano:
 
 
 
 
As you can see, the process is good enough to etch labels and pretty narrow tracks. I have the temperature set to “max”.
 
 
 
As we now have similar laminators. Mail me offline if you want to compare notes.
 
 
 
Kind regards
 
Tony G4WIF
 
 
 
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
 
 
 
Hi Tony
 
Thanks for that. I've made an offer close to the asking price. I'm really hoping it proves better than the iron. What media do you use to transfer the toner? The board I did looked really well and if the layers lined up it would have done but they didn't so that was that. What really peeved my off was the inconsistency in the printing, too difficult to draw in missing tracks I wasted more of the press and peel blue paper than was expected.
 
 
 
Regards
 
Mark
 
 
 

__
 

 
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY PCB with press and peel blue.

2016-07-02 by duwaynes@...


I have tried glossy magazine paper and  had inconsistent results.  I always made sure I found pages that did not have any pictures on.them.  Made it much easier to check the print before trying to transfer to the board.  Did one board with a large  ground plane and could see the image in the copper after etching.  Switched to Glossy Laser Paper and results have been much more consistent with both hot and cold mdethods.
DuWayne
KV4QB.blogspot.com